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I'm gonna say it.... i could do with the PMG being an SMG instead of a 45m rifle. I'm not saying i want it to be useless above 8m, but i don't think its right that a pmg on some corner across a huge street, or across a courtyard, can just chance kill you by spamming 10-20 bullets your way. its not like it's a freak incident either, it's kinda reliable. i see tons of people with pmg just crouching ~40m out because they KNOW they can do signifigant damage to someone with that. i did that whenever i used it for pointman 16 and it was hilarious how far it can grab people..

 

percs could do with a change that makes them useless when you throw them at your feet, too.

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Maybe at the end of the day, we just need an SMG rework...

 

 

 

 

 

or entire game rework...

 

 

 

 

 

 

just sayin

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Posted (edited)
On 5/4/2020 at 7:28 AM, AxeTurboAgresor said:

OCA had lower TTK for a reason. Thats all what needed to ba said. PMG does not deserve any nerf.

OCA and PMG had the same ttk until they reworked the oca (of which was reverted). PMG was semi-fine but never used before it got buffed, however it's buff was a tad bit too strong.

On 5/4/2020 at 9:30 AM, WEISSDEATH said:

He didn't even insult you.

Again, PMG doesn't need to be nerfed, other weapons need to be buff so they it has things to rival it. This whole PMG OP thing became an issue in the first place because another weapon was nerfed; The OCA and the NFAS. 

Even when OCA was a big deal, PMG was an issue as soon as it got buffed. The answer isn't to buff the OCA and NFAS. OCA NEVER needed touched (though cj affecting it was a good change), not since pre-2012 has it needed buffed or changed. PMG got buffed to the point where it NEEDS to be reworked slightly, and it has needed that slight powerlevel down, for a long time now. PMG was never an issue until the buff. Give it a minor rework (Not a hard nerf, just reduce a few accuracy/range/ttk numbers slightly), it won't break the gun, and the people who cry RNG are the same ones using it out of optimal range anyways.

Edited by Noob_Guardian
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Every CQC machine gun needs new balance, I just hope that they won't nerf if by introducing giant crosshair promoting RNG over skill.

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On 5/6/2020 at 10:37 PM, iMiss said:

i see tons of people with pmg just crouching ~40m out because they KNOW they can do signifigant damage to someone with that. i did that whenever i used it for pointman 16 and it was hilarious how far it can grab people..

 

 

Too bad I am not so lucky with pmg at 30/40m+, I have to switch to secondary...

Seriously talking, just random RNG, then about crouching with pmg thinking the accuracy is worst...

 

PMG:

- Per Shot Modifier 0.50

/ Shot Modifier Cap 0.50

/ Recovery Delay 0.100

/ Recovery Per Second 7.20

-Crouch Modifier    0.80

 

On 5/7/2020 at 4:41 AM, Noob_Guardian said:

Give it a minor rework (Not a hard nerf, just reduce a few accuracy/range/ttk numbers slightly), it won't break the gun, and the people who cry RNG are the same ones using it out of optimal range anyways.

 

Not agree for accuracy and tkk nerf, about range.. why not?

 

Damage drop off start at 35m, barely you can use it at 20m, change drop off at 25m, then maybe not only PMG, for all the SMG with ttk <= .70 

 

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I am proceeding to play with OCA instead of PMG and I literally see no difference in my performance.

I also have watched a recently released video about players' negative feedback, made by Game Maker's Toolkit.
There, he tells that a good indication of a bad player feedback is when the content already features a solution instead of identifying the problem.
I think OP would be very interested 🙂

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17 minutes ago, isaac-the-dad said:

I am proceeding to play with OCA instead of PMG and I literally see no difference in my performance.

I also have watched a recently released video about players' negative feedback, made by Game Maker's Toolkit.
There, he tells that a good indication of a bad player feedback is when the content already features a solution instead of identifying the problem.
I think OP would be very interested 🙂

THE COUNCIL REQUEST A LINK

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The entire weapons arsenal in APB needs a complete rework because it is currently an absolute mess after the last few weapon balance related patches. Everything is off balance, nothing works as it should and we are only stuck with even less options to pick to be able to compete at high level than before. The mistake was that they went and changed the OCA without touching the PMG. Regarding SMGs, they need to either revert the OCA back or nerf the PMG to be more in line with the other SMGs. I personally support reverting most changes back to before LO touched anything as it was still more balanced (save for things like the Yukon) and then move on from there with slight changes to some weapons such as the HVR. Most of the changes that we've seen so far have been pretty bad as whoever is doing them doesn't have much (if any) experience with APB's gameplay.

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6 hours ago, Flaws said:

The entire weapons arsenal in APB needs a complete rework because it is currently an absolute mess after the last few weapon balance related patches. Everything is off balance, nothing works as it should and we are only stuck with even less options to pick to be able to compete at high level than before. The mistake was that they went and changed the OCA without touching the PMG. Regarding SMGs, they need to either revert the OCA back or nerf the PMG to be more in line with the other SMGs. I personally support reverting most changes back to before LO touched anything as it was still more balanced (save for things like the Yukon) and then move on from there with slight changes to some weapons such as the HVR. Most of the changes that we've seen so far have been pretty bad as whoever is doing them doesn't have much (if any) experience with APB's gameplay.

Pretty much exactly this. Really hope that at least after the engine upgrade they do this. They really need to start balancing weapons based on feedback from top performing players only cuz as soon as you try to balance the game for top players AND casuals at the same time it will become a completely unbalanced mess

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On 5/4/2020 at 12:13 AM, AxeTurboAgresor said:

You guys dont know when to stop, dont you?

Hahah look, the OP got removed from the site apparently.

Anyway, I have returned from OCA to PMG and I still insist that none of them need being nerfed.
I have just had an enemy running around with NFAS-12 True Ogre.
He would gun me down in every single 1 v 1 fight, even if I jumped him.

NFAS nerf when? *trollface*

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Yea, its dumb any and every noob nowadays runs a pmg adn has a loud mouth to go with it. Since the report fucntion is a joke, it almost encourage these ppl to be a intolerable A hole.

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On 5/6/2020 at 3:37 PM, iMiss said:

i could do with the PMG being an SMG instead of a 45m rifle

*35m

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Posted (edited)
On 5/9/2020 at 9:48 AM, Flaws said:

The entire weapons arsenal in APB needs a complete rework because it is currently an absolute mess after the last few weapon balance related patches. Everything is off balance, nothing works as it should and we are only stuck with even less options to pick to be able to compete at high level than before. The mistake was that they went and changed the OCA without touching the PMG. Regarding SMGs, they need to either revert the OCA back or nerf the PMG to be more in line with the other SMGs. I personally support reverting most changes back to before LO touched anything as it was still more balanced (save for things like the Yukon) and then move on from there with slight changes to some weapons such as the HVR. Most of the changes that we've seen so far have been pretty bad as whoever is doing them doesn't have much (if any) experience with APB's gameplay.

To be fair the only big weapon changes LO did to my knowledge was shotguns, ntec, and hvr. (and Clotting agent) They reverted G1's initial OCA buffs as well. The downside is that they didn't nerf the PMG slightly to compensate, because it's needed a "slight" nerf (like a light one) to put it into better line with the OCA ever since the PMG got buffed initially.

 

They also touched yukon, but i don't believe they've really touched anything else aside from what I mentioned.

 

LO has not "destroyed" weapon balanced imo, though shotguns have always been hit or miss and they reverted them to "roughly" pre-lo stats. The Yukon, ntec, and HVR changes are the only other "big" changes they've done to weapons in APB. NTEC and HVR have needed the changes, though I disagree with "what" was changed to both of them and to the extent.

 

Edited by Noob_Guardian

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On 5/15/2020 at 8:51 PM, isaac-the-dad said:

Hahah look, the OP got removed from the site apparently.

Anyway, I have returned from OCA to PMG and I still insist that none of them need being nerfed.
I have just had an enemy running around with NFAS-12 True Ogre.
He would gun me down in every single 1 v 1 fight, even if I jumped him.

NFAS nerf when? *trollface*

Get better maybe ?

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, aLpinga said:

Get better maybe ?

I was clearly being sarcastic.

EDIT: just so we're on the same page, so this guy with True Ogre was killing me real good.
I am getting that the whole name of this game is "if it don't work, change your strats".
Obviously, it's just me needing to git gud, that's what I promoted in my message.

Edited by isaac-the-dad
Clear something up in my response...

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15 minutes ago, isaac-the-dad said:

I was clearly being sarcastic.

EDIT: just so we're on the same page, so this guy with True Ogre was killing me real good.
I am getting that the whole name of this game is "if it don't work, change your strats".
Obviously, it's just me needing to git gud, that's what I promoted in my message.

The Ogre's biggest weakness is its windup (0.59 seconds)... that's when you should be attacking.
Try to use cover to bait them into a windup then wait for the cancel and pounce.

 

Or play a weapon with more range and just pew pew pew from a distance.

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

To be fair the only big weapon changes LO did to my knowledge was shotguns, ntec, and hvr. (and Clotting agent) They reverted G1's initial OCA buffs as well. The downside is that they didn't nerf the PMG slightly to compensate, because it's needed a "slight" nerf (like a light one) to put it into better line with the OCA ever since the PMG got buffed initially.

 

They also touched yukon, but i don't believe they've really touched anything else aside from what I mentioned.

 

LO has not "destroyed" weapon balanced imo, though shotguns have always been hit or miss and they reverted them to "roughly" pre-lo stats. The Yukon, ntec, and HVR changes are the only other "big" changes they've done to weapons in APB. NTEC and HVR have needed the changes, though I disagree with "what" was changed to both of them and to the extent.

 

You're missing the point of what I am saying. By making changes to some of the key weapons in the game without touching the other weapons in their categories, they have set things very off balance. They don't need to change everything in order to make everything a mess. Like the SMGs, the ARs, the shotguns. The SMGs and shotguns were not tweaked all together at the same time so we now went from having more top tier options such as OCA, Whisper, PMG, CSG, JG down to just PMG and JG in one fell swoop. The OCA is a watergun compared to the PMG, the CSG regs occassionally meanwhile the JG 2-shots people at 50m (not actual distance) even when you aim away from the enemy. The HVR got it's quickswitch mechanic taken away but the actual problem with the HVR persists so it's not satisfactory whatsoever. Almost all good players agree that the N-TEC got dealt a bad hand, especially considering that none of the other ARs in the game were touched up on, with the FAR and STAR having the exact same glaring features (some call them "issues", I call them fun gameplay mechanics) that the N-TEC got nerfed for but they remain in the game, as well as the ATAC which is just incredibly broken. The Manic is beyond broken and people have been waking up to that on Citadel, the AMG LMGs still exist in their original form and so on.

 

After all these changes, none of the weapons feel fun anymore. You can't pick between a few guns in each category that all work well. You now must pick that one gun that is still viable and all the others are paintball guns. The game has become more stale than it's ever been and it's making me miss the weapon balance times as far back as when HVR Quickswitch was meta because god damn it, that was still 300x times more fun than the shitshow we have now.

Edited by Flaws
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On 5/18/2020 at 4:53 PM, Flaws said:

You're missing the point of what I am saying. By making changes to some of the key weapons in the game without touching the other weapons in their categories, they have set things very off balance. They don't need to change everything in order to make everything a mess. Like the SMGs, the ARs, the shotguns. The SMGs and shotguns were not tweaked all together at the same time so we now went from having more top tier options such as OCA, Whisper, PMG, CSG, JG down to just PMG and JG in one fell swoop. The OCA is a watergun compared to the PMG, the CSG regs occassionally meanwhile the JG 2-shots people at 50m (not actual distance) even when you aim away from the enemy. The HVR got it's quickswitch mechanic taken away but the actual problem with the HVR persists so it's not satisfactory whatsoever. Almost all good players agree that the N-TEC got dealt a bad hand, especially considering that none of the other ARs in the game were touched up on, with the FAR and STAR having the exact same glaring features (some call them "issues", I call them fun gameplay mechanics) that the N-TEC got nerfed for but they remain in the game, as well as the ATAC which is just incredibly broken. The Manic is beyond broken and people have been waking up to that on Citadel, the AMG LMGs still exist in their original form and so on.

 

After all these changes, none of the weapons feel fun anymore. You can't pick between a few guns in each category that all work well. You now must pick that one gun that is still viable and all the others are paintball guns. The game has become more stale than it's ever been and it's making me miss the weapon balance times as far back as when HVR Quickswitch was meta because god damn it, that was still 300x times more fun than the shitshow we have now.

 

I'll have to disagree, a lot of the people who play PMG and shotguns now, always have. It's just those OCA players left or moved to other weapons. The PMG has always needed a minor nerf. HVR needed qsing removed which was it's biggest and pretty much only issue, but they decided to nerf it in the most backwards way one can imagine.

 

NTEC needed a nerf, i don't really care what the so called "good" players believed, considering most of them would gladly leave PMG and NTEC as is and leave most other guns in the trash.

 

I'm pretty sure everyone argues that the STAR and FAR are meant to be more "CQC", while NTEC is "mid range". Which directly means NTEC shouldn't be as capable in "cqc" as the STAR and FAR. AKA those "game features" make sense for NTEC to not have. You can thank everyone who didn't want ntec nerfed for shooting themselves in the foot by arguing that the NTEC should be and remain a mid range dominator, which leaves its cqc capabilities to be nerfed as it was too overbearing against the other AR's whom they argued are "cqc ars".

 

Manic is only broken because they rebalanced half the weapons that permitted it to be broken and seen as "balanced". Hopefully they nerf it slightly (jump shooting and mag size anyone?) and call it a day.

 

ATAC isn't broken but okay...

 

Yeah, lets go to HVR quickswitch times when the only weapons used the most were csg's, hvrs, oca's, and joker carbines. "eyeroll" Recently it went to "ntec only" because people got lazy and grouping became near nonexistant.

 

The current balance is far better than it was back then. Are there some minor tweaks they can do? Absolutely, but arguing that the broken cesspool APB used to be doesn't make the fact that it was far worse back then.

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On 5/6/2020 at 4:37 PM, iMiss said:

I'm gonna say it.... i could do with the PMG being an SMG instead of a 45m rifle. I'm not saying i want it to be useless above 8m, but i don't think its right that a pmg on some corner across a huge street, or across a courtyard, can just chance kill you by spamming 10-20 bullets your way. its not like it's a freak incident either, it's kinda reliable. i see tons of people with pmg just crouching ~40m out because they KNOW they can do signifigant damage to someone with that. i did that whenever i used it for pointman 16 and it was hilarious how far it can grab people..

 

percs could do with a change that makes them useless when you throw them at your feet, too.

The closest SMG to a rifle is the TM, and even then the PMG can out range it. Ive seen many times the PMG at range dealing damage and it can be accurate too, moreso then the TM at times.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

-snip-

I had started writing a couple small paragraphs replying to each of your points but I remembered that I've already done this way too many times and it is pointless, so I deleted all of that. I disagree heavily with basically everything you've written. I mean no offense but this just screams that you are a casual player who doesn't really understand APB beyond a surface level or how it's played at high level at all. You don't understand the gripes of trying to be good at something and have that something be ruined by horridly unbalanced loadouts and incredible amounts of RNG which allow way worse players to win entire matches against you. Not only is it unfun, unfair but it is irritating and frustrating to no end. I can't think of a single person who enjoys losing and has fun when they lose unfairly. That's not how you manage a game that wants to be competitive, no one will want to compete in a game like this save for the handful of players who still do today who are leaving one by one slowly but surely.

 

Unfortunately, the people who are the least knowledgeable are always the most vocal hence the constant shouting on the forums to nerf this and that to LO, in effect, ruining the last remaining fun of the game for the type of players they should be focusing on, in favor of the people who just want to play GTA with good customization, which APB is not. They never shout about the actually broken weapons that they use on a daily basis to scrape a few kills per mission so those guns remain untouched, meanwhile the actual fun, skill-based, competitive oriented weapons get shoved in their grave. Why? Because they get outplayed by better players using fun and skillful weapons instead of a broken "W+LMB=Free Kills" type weapon therefore those weapons are at fault. Instead of trying to get better themselves, they prefer to go on the forums and cry and whine and shout after a loss in-game. I do not want to support those players and I disagree with catering to them. At the end of the day, it's mainly the matchmaking's fault for the downfall of the weapon balancing. If those same players had to deal with others of their own skill level using N-TECs, OCAs, PMGs, JGs, CSGs and so on, they would never say a word about any of those weapons being any type of unbalanced or in need of any kind of nerf. Trust me on that, I know it.

Edited by Flaws
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Posted (edited)
On 5/20/2020 at 3:40 AM, Flaws said:

I had started writing a couple small paragraphs replying to each of your points but I remembered that I've already done this way too many times and it is pointless, so I deleted all of that. I disagree heavily with basically everything you've written. I mean no offense but this just screams that you are a casual player who doesn't really understand APB beyond a surface level or how it's played at high level at all. You don't understand the gripes of trying to be good at something and have that something be ruined by horridly unbalanced loadouts and incredible amounts of RNG which allow way worse players to win entire matches against you. Not only is it unfun, unfair but it is irritating and frustrating to no end. I can't think of a single person who enjoys losing and has fun when they lose unfairly. That's not how you manage a game that wants to be competitive, no one will want to compete in a game like this save for the handful of players who still do today who are leaving one by one slowly but surely.

 

Unfortunately, the people who are the least knowledgeable are always the most vocal hence the constant shouting on the forums to nerf this and that to LO, in effect, ruining the last remaining fun of the game for the type of players they should be focusing on, in favor of the people who just want to play GTA with good customization, which APB is not. They never shout about the actually broken weapons that they use on a daily basis to scrape a few kills per mission so those guns remain untouched, meanwhile the actual fun, skill-based, competitive oriented weapons get shoved in their grave. Why? Because they get outplayed by better players using fun and skillful weapons instead of a broken "W+LMB=Free Kills" type weapon therefore those weapons are at fault. Instead of trying to get better themselves, they prefer to go on the forums and cry and whine and shout after a loss in-game. I do not want to support those players and I disagree with catering to them. At the end of the day, it's mainly the matchmaking's fault for the downfall of the weapon balancing. If those same players had to deal with others of their own skill level using N-TECs, OCAs, PMGs, JGs, CSGs and so on, they would never say a word about any of those weapons being any type of unbalanced or in need of any kind of nerf. Trust me on that, I know it.

 

I've been around since Open beta there and can compete pretty well against full premades of the so called "good competitive players". I don't care if you think i'm a casual player, there's literally ZERO reward for playing this game like it's some sort of competitive world cup game. I understand APB plenty beneath the surface level, as well as weapon interactions, I own the majority of the weapons in-game and armas and use them ALL while leveling their respective roles, have over 100k kills and 2 maxed roles and everything else 15. I enjoy using the "trashy low power weapons" like the ODIN series and the SBSR/Oblivion over the "meta" and still do almost just as well.

 

Just because a weapon is somewhat EASY to use, doesn't make it broken. That's why ATAC isn't overpowered. It's balanced within its optimal range. Most people complaining about it use the ntec or pop a pistol out against it because they're using a sub optimal lr weapon in cqc against one (imagine that losing to a weapon in its intended niche). The "competitive" players have litterally NO bearing about APB's weapon balancing or the intent behind it. Almost EVERY competitive player I've seen has been against almost EVERY weapon rework that was needed. Some of them even spoke out AGAINST the star buff after it happened. Don't get me started about how "competitive players" know what's best for APB, when the majority of them don't know jack aside from the best way to abuse exploitable mechanics to win.

 

There's almost nothing unbalanced about loadouts in APB, unless you're referring to car-det and spotter, at which point, don't be stupid and sit on a road all day for it to blow up on you, and honestly, expect to be ambushed and not run in the objective like a dummy (imagine that). Every single "unfun" "unfair" loadout, is easily countered by not playing stupid, because almost EVERY single one of those loadouts, can be countered easily. You know, like NOT charging that remote det guy's car for an "ez" kill. ( I can admit car spawner could have a 1s longer blow up time in cqc but aside from that no issue with it).

 

The only "real" broken mod is car spawners.

 

There's very little RNG aside from recoil (and server issues), and that is extremely manageable in most cases except for most LMGs. You can argue about this all you want but if you're suffering from RNG either learn recoil control, or learn to fire the weapon within it's intended "effective" range. (Hint, weapon's effective range doesn't mean the entire range it damage drops at)

 

Just because something uses "tapfiring" doesn't mean it takes a ton of skill, nor does it mean that it shouldn't be nerfed for being too good. Just because a weapon is versatile, doesn't mean it's the most balanced in it's respective niche. The reason ATAC gets so much hate is that its full auto like an SMG (oooh nooo) but pull out the ursus which is way more powerful in most cases, and it's suddenly high skill and shouldn't be touched? Don't make me laugh.

 

It's not even the games matchmaker that makes the weapons considered broke. They'd be complaining regardless of the players skill level because the "high skill" weapons like you claim the ntec is, are actually low-mid skill with too much return in too many situations.

 

This game doesn't "want" to be competitive. The overall game is literally about customization and fooling around (ramps literally everywhere). Look anywhere for "competitive shooter" for APB. Steam, WIKI, APB Site, NOWHERE does it say "competitive shooter" N-O-W-H-E-R-E. The only ones trying to make it some competitive shooter are players who don't understand the core concepts of APB, who argue that APB should be like "other games" with how it handles weapon stats and aiming, because APB shouldn't be unique, it should be like a CSGO clone instead. Because CSGO has some of the best weapon functionality :eyeroll:.

 

APB isn't competitive at its core, it never was. Leaderboards were avoided (and we are only going to get them in a year or so from LO) because of toxicity and because the G1 felt that it would bring out the worst in the community, especially the "competitive" types that they never catered to. Litterally, every "competitive" weapon, location, and mod in game has been nerfed, I can't imagine that yall can't get it through your heads by now, it's not catered towards your desire to pubstomp people using ntec and carbines all day.

 

I think it's time for you and all the other "competitive" types to admit that APB was never "competitive", and never meant to be competitive to the level you desire. Game balance is NOT what you want to be, and hopefully NEVER will be, because almost every person I know agrees that game balance today, is far better than it was 2-3-4-5 years ago despite what y'all cry at.

 

Merged.

 

If you can find where it says "competitive" here, then I'll believe you.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/113400/APB_Reloaded/

 

Edited by Noob_Guardian
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