PATCH NOTES 1.20.0 (1170)

[Revoluzzer 274]

On 10/3/2019 at 8:42 AM, crusade said:

Why not just buff STAR RoF so that it's 0.70 TTK to bring it in-line with the rest of the ARs?

Generally the rifleman class should have a slower TTK than the pointman class. It means they technically can not directly compete with pointman weapons, unless they get lucky. Of course there may be exceptions to that rule, like a dedicated close range assault rifle.

Obviously this rule has not been adhered to in the past, which lead to such nonsense like the sub-0.7s TTK OCA.

 

Buffing all the "weak" weapons instead of "nerfing" too powerful ones causes a power creep which is unhealthy to gameplay in general.

[CookiePuss 5382]

1 hour ago, Revoluzzer said:

 

 

Buffing all the "weak" weapons instead of "nerfing" too powerful ones causes a power creep which is unhealthy to gameplay in general.

What's the opposite of power creep?

 

[Lord Cashpoint 269]

6 minutes ago, CookiePuss said:

What's the opposite of power creep?

 

 

The Weapon Curve balance update.

[crusade 89]

13 hours ago, Revoluzzer said:

Generally the rifleman class should have a slower TTK than the pointman class. It means they technically can not directly compete with pointman weapons, unless they get lucky. Of course there may be exceptions to that rule, like a dedicated close range assault rifle.

Obviously this rule has not been adhered to in the past, which lead to such nonsense like the sub-0.7s TTK OCA.

 

Buffing all the "weak" weapons instead of "nerfing" too powerful ones causes a power creep which is unhealthy to gameplay in general.

All I suggested was to buff the trainee rifle, not every AR except the NTEC. The justification for this being that no one uses it, because generally speaking it's an inferior AR.

 

I'll agree the OCA change was unjustified, but that's because it's TTK got pushed out of line and below the rest in it's class.

 

I'm very hesitant to agree with pushing ARs to a baseline TTK slower than CQC weapons, considering it puts us more towards rock-paper-scissors gameplay, and Pointman weapons already have an advantage over ARs in CQC with even TTKs anyway (assuming both players are about equally skilled).

[vsb 6174]

40 minutes ago, crusade said:

considering it puts us more towards rock-paper-scissors gameplay

isn’t this the point?

 

 

[crusade 89]

3 hours ago, Solamente said:

isn’t this the point?

Yeah I dunno anymore. I'd personally prefer skill-based gameplay. I'm weird like that.

[vsb 6174]

1 hour ago, crusade said:

Yeah I dunno anymore. I'd personally prefer skill-based gameplay. I'm weird like that.

i wasnt supporting lower AR ttks across the board, but apb is already almost as far into rock-paper-scissors meta as it can get 

[SkittyM 287]

9 hours ago, crusade said:

All I suggested was to buff the trainee rifle, not every AR except the NTEC. The justification for this being that no one uses it, because generally speaking it's an inferior AR.

That's the funny thing about the STAR, it's not used because its kinda boring and easy to use.  If you ever actually used a 3 slot and modded it up, it would kick patootie pretty often.   Until ARs suddenly start getting better, the STAR is perfectly fine as is.  Basically doing its job.

[crusade 89]

21 minutes ago, SkittyM said:

That's the funny thing about the STAR, it's not used because its kinda boring and easy to use.  If you ever actually used a 3 slot and modded it up, it would kick patootie pretty often.   Until ARs suddenly start getting better, the STAR is perfectly fine as is.  Basically doing its job.

You know what other gun is kinda boring and easy to use? The snub nose. It's boring because you aren't going to get kills against opponents of equal skill. It's a shooter, you click on people dawg. SMGs are braindead easy to shoot, but tons of people use them because they frag. No one uses the STAR because pretty much any other option does a better job. There's no point in saying mods are going to make it better, because the same mods can be applied to other ARs as well.

 

Now please explain to me why the FAR is a direct upgrade to the STAR, and is still only considered decent. I don't get it, are we afraid of trainees getting kills?

[CookiePuss 5382]

#MakeRaptorOrAtacTheStarterWeapon

[Lord Cashpoint 269]

2 hours ago, CookiePuss said:

#MakeRaptorOrAtacTheStarterWeapon

 

The STAR is actually quite a decent starter weapon - even though it might not be the most effective, it is a pretty good tutorial, in that it can teach new players a lot about weapon handling, such as bloom, hipfire etc. All the little skills you need to learn to be effective with other weapons can be practised on the STAR.

 

If you want to help new players, maybe change the default sensitivity - it's crazy high by default, with an incredibly low Marksmanship mode sensitivity.

[Noob_Guardian 418]

33 minutes ago, Lord Cashpoint said:

 

The STAR is actually quite a decent starter weapon - even though it might not be the most effective, it is a pretty good tutorial, in that it can teach new players a lot about weapon handling, such as bloom, hipfire etc. All the little skills you need to learn to be effective with other weapons can be practised on the STAR.

 

If you want to help new players, maybe change the default sensitivity - it's crazy high by default, with an incredibly low Marksmanship mode sensitivity.

I can agree to this, the default sensitivity is absolutely appalling. No wonder new players have such a hard time playing off the bat, they can't hit anything. I can't tell you how many new players i've told to change sensativity and it help them because they lowered it.

3 hours ago, crusade said:

You know what other gun is kinda boring and easy to use? The snub nose. It's boring because you aren't going to get kills against opponents of equal skill. It's a shooter, you click on people dawg. SMGs are braindead easy to shoot, but tons of people use them because they frag. No one uses the STAR because pretty much any other option does a better job. There's no point in saying mods are going to make it better, because the same mods can be applied to other ARs as well.

 

Now please explain to me why the FAR is a direct upgrade to the STAR, and is still only considered decent. I don't get it, are we afraid of trainees getting kills?

Star got buffed after the far came out, so that they function similarly. Which imo is great, but we all know despite both being great guns (imo), they are overshadowed by more accurate and powerful ones.

[SkittyM 287]

5 hours ago, crusade said:

You know what other gun is kinda boring and easy to use? The snub nose. It's boring because you aren't going to get kills against opponents of equal skill. It's a shooter, you click on people dawg. SMGs are braindead easy to shoot, but tons of people use them because they frag. No one uses the STAR because pretty much any other option does a better job. There's no point in saying mods are going to make it better, because the same mods can be applied to other ARs as well.

 

 

The SNR 850 is neither boring or easy to use(though its far from hard to use, but there's a reason its no longer the starter secondary).  Also not sure what getting kills has to do with a gun being boring.  Boring is more about how something handles, not how good it is.  Sure the Rapier is fast and gets you from point A to B quick, but its a boring vehicle to drive.  Same with the Growl, Pioneer, Vegas.  They all lack interesting character, just like the STAR because its meant to do a bit of everything.  And while yes, you can apply other mods to other guns, that doesn't instantly make them perform the same as the STAR with mods.  They're all different and that's part of the point.   Yes there are better guns than the STAR, does that mean the STAR is bad?  No.  Very few people think the STAR is bad, its just boring and not interesting.  Certainly not as easy as the ATAC or Raptor 45 either, its an introductory gun. 

 

5 hours ago, crusade said:

Now please explain to me why the FAR is a direct upgrade to the STAR, and is still only considered decent. I don't get it, are we afraid of trainees getting kills?

FAR is marketed as an improvement on the STAR, but it plays more like an N-TEC 5 than a STAR.    Trainees getting kills has to do with them being trainees in the first place, not what gun they use.   A player with 0 seconds of exposure to APB is going to perform the same with pretty much every primary and exposing them to the ATAC is the farthest thing from helping them get better at the game.

[crusade 89]

3 hours ago, SkittyM said:

The SNR 850 is neither boring or easy to use(though its far from hard to use, but there's a reason its no longer the starter secondary).  Also not sure what getting kills has to do with a gun being boring.  Boring is more about how something handles, not how good it is.  Sure the Rapier is fast and gets you from point A to B quick, but its a boring vehicle to drive.  Same with the Growl, Pioneer, Vegas.  They all lack interesting character, just like the STAR because its meant to do a bit of everything.  And while yes, you can apply other mods to other guns, that doesn't instantly make them perform the same as the STAR with mods.  They're all different and that's part of the point.   Yes there are better guns than the STAR, does that mean the STAR is bad?  No.  Very few people think the STAR is bad, its just boring and not interesting.  Certainly not as easy as the ATAC or Raptor 45 either, its an introductory gun. 

 

FAR is marketed as an improvement on the STAR, but it plays more like an N-TEC 5 than a STAR.    Trainees getting kills has to do with them being trainees in the first place, not what gun they use.   A player with 0 seconds of exposure to APB is going to perform the same with pretty much every primary and exposing them to the ATAC is the farthest thing from helping them get better at the game.

Oh yeah, the SNR is fun for you? It shouldn't come as a surprise to you that people enjoy getting kills more than dying. The SNR can be fun if you are just trashing on silvers or low golds and you're joking around with your friends in comms, but for the most part it's subjective. Because when it comes to crunch time, and you get opposed against players around your skill level and you would like to actually try winning, you're going to put the SNR down. Same goes with the STAR. Your vehicle example is purely subjective. I personally enjoy driving 3 out of 4 of the cars you mentioned.

 

It's a shooter, in general all the weapons function similarly. ARs you hold right click and track, or hipfire and hug. With both the NTEC and STAR you tap or burst depending on the range. But, the NTEC is more effective than the STAR by a significant margin, because all the other ARs also do a bit of everything. That's the purpose of the Rifleman role. Also, what is your argument with the mods? Mods may have some varying effects in different weapons across different roles, but we're talking about ARs. Mods have generally the same effects no matter which AR you put them in. So, if a baseline stat is worse (the TTK for example), the final out come is going to be the same. (CJ3 FAR is still better than CJ3 STAR).

 

As for you thinking the STAR isn't bad, let me give you an example. Let's say there are 4 weapons that are going to be rated on a scale of overall effectiveness, 1 through 10. The ratings are: 10, 9.5, 9, and 7.5. Now, most people are going to say "But a 7.5 isn't bad." But, considering it's the worst rated weapon by a much larger margin than the other 3 weapons, it's pretty bad in relation. No one is going to use the 7.5, because there's no reason to not use the better options. Also, I'm not suggesting to make the ATAC the starter weapon, that was Pookie's damn memeing a**. The only thing I suggested was to buff the STAR's TTK to 0.7. That's it.

 

0.7 TTK is what the FAR is already at. The FAR also has an extra 0.05 benefit on the marksman modifier, built in Mag pull (why is the STAR reload so slow?), and ever so slightly higher modifier cap. This doesn't make it more like the NTEC. It's pretty much what the STAR should be: what it is, plus the change that I suggested (faster TTK). And yeah, on your last sentence you pretty much completely missed my point. Trainees are not deadly, so why are you afraid to buff the weapon they are handed at the beginning of their experience? You cannot argue that giving a trainee a 0.05 faster TTK is not going to be beneficial for them across the board, even if the final results of specific scenarios sometimes remain unaffected.

[LilyV3 323]

On ‎10‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 9:25 PM, Nitronik said:

It's enough to make it unable to dispatch Kevlar 1 laden opponents at min TTK, as well as further reducing the damage it deals at range, which is the whole point of my complaint. Bravo!

Every other short range weapon has many advantages over the NTEC, and the reduction in bloom recovery speed is more than enough to increase the effective TTK at range.
With that last sentence in mind, there is literally no reason to add a TTK nerf on top of bloom recovery and range reduction.

 

 

Can we please stop with this balancing trend where LO has to destroy weapons to please you all, and instead try to tune them to a still viable spot?

 

So Yous ay Kevlar 1 suddenly would have a use?

 

The TTK nerf practically only happens for cqc situations because otherwise you don't fire the n-tec at max RoF anyways. anything past 30m needs burst or tapfire anyways. So at these ranges the increased RoF has a negliable impact if any at all.

Edited October 7, 2019 by LilyV3

[mojical 160]

I don't believe a TTK improvement is the only thing that could make the STAR more viable as an N-TEC alternative. Here is what I would do:

 

- Reduce the reload time to 2.40s from 2.80s (the STAR having a ridiculously long reload time has already been brought up in this thread). This would make it match the N-TEC. 

- Increase marksmanship strafing speed from 175cm/s to 275cm/s. Even the LCR, for all its faults, got this right. It makes absolutely zero sense that the long range version of the same weapon has more mobility (and less accuracy, but that's a problem of the LCR, not the regular STAR) than the close-medium range version.

- Improve the marksmanship modifier from 0.63 to 0.4 for the STAR LCR variant. This should be self explanatory to anyone who has tried to use the LCR in its intended range. 

 

The point is to not make it a clone of the N-TEC, but to offer an alternative that has different strengths and weaknesses and can be appealing to both new and veteran players, like the N-TEC already is. 

 

 

[SkittyM 287]

20 hours ago, crusade said:

0.7 TTK is what the FAR is already at. The FAR also has an extra 0.05 benefit on the marksman modifier, built in Mag pull (why is the STAR reload so slow?), and ever so slightly higher modifier cap. This doesn't make it more like the NTEC. It's pretty much what the STAR should be: what it is, plus the change that I suggested (faster TTK). And yeah, on your last sentence you pretty much completely missed my point. Trainees are not deadly, so why are you afraid to buff the weapon they are handed at the beginning of their experience? You cannot argue that giving a trainee a 0.05 faster TTK is not going to be beneficial for them across the board, even if the final results of specific scenarios sometimes remain unaffected.

A min TTK boost is not going to help anyone.  That's straight up not how the STAR works or what it's about.  Its a starter gun, its meant to show you how gun mechanics work.  Until a 0.75 TTK becomes the high end of the AR class, there's zero need or reason to buff the STARs TTK.  Perfectly fine as it is.

 

5 hours ago, Lyfeld said:

- Increase marksmanship strafing speed from 175cm/s to 275cm/s. Even the LCR, for all its faults, got this right. It makes absolutely zero sense that the long range version of the same weapon has more mobility (and less accuracy, but that's a problem of the LCR, not the regular STAR) than the close-medium range version.

Hard disagree here.  The LCR does what it does cause its meant to have more of a P2W aspect to it, much like the OCA Whisper.  Buffing the marksmen movement speed would be breaking the classes weapon consistency as the "general" (N-tec, STAR, S1-FA) AR type has a 175cm/s speed.  The more "Marksmen" themed ARs (COBR-A, AR-97) have a much slower marksmen speed of 139cm/s.  The "CQB" themed ARs (ACES R, Raptor 45, ATAC,) have 225cm/s or greater. 

[CookiePuss 5382]

1 hour ago, SkittyM said:

A min TTK boost is not going to help anyone. 

[Hexerin 1143]

7 hours ago, SkittyM said:

The more "Marksmen" themed ARs (COBR-A

You apparently have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the COBR-A is, how it works, and what it's intended to do.

[vsb 6174]

12 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

You apparently have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the COBR-A is, how it works, and what it's intended to do.

classic spct

[crusade 89]

10 hours ago, SkittyM said:

A min TTK boost is not going to help anyone.  That's straight up not how the STAR works or what it's about.  Its a starter gun, its meant to show you how gun mechanics work.  Until a 0.75 TTK becomes the high end of the AR class, there's zero need or reason to buff the STARs TTK.  Perfectly fine as it is.

I'm actually trying to figure out how someone is this intelligent.

 

FAR stronger version of STAR. STAR weaker than FAR. Make STAR strong like FAR. More balanced. Starter guns do not have to be weak (e.g. FBW). Buffing STAR TTK small amount will not suddenly make STAR hard to learn. Skitty smart. Comprehend perfectly fine logical statement.

Edited October 8, 2019 by crusade

[Nitronik 348]

1 hour ago, crusade said:

I'm actually trying to figure out how someone is this intelligent.

 

FAR stronger version of STAR. STAR weaker than FAR. Make STAR strong like FAR. More balanced. Starter guns do not have to be weak (FBW). Buffing STAR TTK small amount will not suddenly make STAR hard to learn. Skitty smart. Comprehend perfectly fine logical statement.

FAR have tradeoffs. STAR decent but easier to use. Starter gun FBW not weak. You [censored].

[Hexerin 1143]

I will never understand why people want to buff the STAR, it's one of the most satisfying guns in the game to use. No shitty gimmicks, just pure and simple gunplay like every gun in APB used to be before Gamersfirst/Reloaded started shitting the game up with their garbage design "vision". I'd rather see all the stronger weapons brought in line to the STAR, which would also serve to slow the TTK just a tad. You know, how the game is supposed to be.

[crusade 89]

27 minutes ago, Nitronik said:

FAR have tradeoffs. STAR decent but easier to use. Starter gun FBW not weak. You [censored].

FAR is a direct upgrade to the STAR, and function identically. I know FBW is not weak. I, and many other players main it.

[Uke 101]

On 10/5/2019 at 1:38 AM, CookiePuss said:

Then why do so many players choose to use the other ARs?

Considering the ntec is a free gun, that's an important question.

Are you like high or something, 9/10 ARs I see are ntecs.