Grenade stun and opgl are OP

[Fortune Runner 796]

Just now, Clandestine said:

OPGL CD alone is annoying but weak. OPGL CD combined with other Stabba team mates that know what they do is very OP indeed.

by that logic if you lost to bb gun users because they coordinated then the bb gun would be overpowered.....which wouldn't be true at all *shrugs*

[TheJellyGoo 343]

7 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

 

The reason the ltl one is wider is because it's not a 1 shot stun/ 1 shot kill. It would be near useless if it had the lethal radius for its max radius. People move out of the radius in ~1 second and the timer takes 4. It's already fairly difficult to 1hit with lethal, forcing the less than lethal to be even weaker than it is currently is dumb. Here, lets nerf an already underused weapon that relies on takeouts from a generally difficult mechanic and that will somehow make the game more "balanced". (what? you don't nerf the bottom trash tier just because you don't like how it operates when it is not OP)

 

It takes more time to stun if you don't switch to a pistol, and even then it sometimes does if you missed a shot or the ltl opgl shot on the enemy wasn't in radius enough. While lethal suffers the same fate at times, the ltl one still suffers from LTL mechanics, and other drawbacks (being inheritely weaker). Lethal has faster equip time and ttks. You can kill faster firing a lethal opgl shot and using a frog or .45 than you can stun with the ltl opgl switching to pistol after a shot. Unless you manage to kill at the "4 second mark" which by then you probably should be dead if you don't have cover. Especially in cqc, and that's excluding the fact that most lethal guns could kill you  3-5x in that time, and ltl could have stunned 2-3x by then. (which is probably why if it was op, it hasn't been nerfed or touched in any balance patch. Even though the NL9 had been, maybe the ccg too? I forget)

 

When you go and ask for a nerf for a weapon that is weaker than its lethal counterpart and is harder to play because of game mechanics, it's kinda hard to know how much you actually know about ltl.

 

A full coordinated group running full ltl against 4 men and doing well? Imagine that, its almost like a coordinated group makes LTL easier. Unlike solo ltling and carrying against 4 man clan groups. But honestly, when you call to nerf an already weak gun that relies on an underused and more difficult mechanic to get "takeouts" with, I couldn't help but to question if you were a crim main who was complaining about ltl or had actually used it before as enf and faced a bunch of newbies and people who have no idea how to face off against it ltl while claiming the gun is op.

 

Didn't you play Colby tho? Cause all my experiences are joker.

So following your argumentation 1shot should be a non issue since people can just walk out of the radius anyway. After all what are 2m 1shot radius compared to a reduction from 10m to 7.5m radius.

It all comes back to my point that when just comparing the 2-shot ability which poses a far higher threat than the odd one-shot here and there that the CD is stronger.

Comparing stats isn't all in a balance discussion if one doesn't know how they apply ingame and what it means in terms of viability.

 

I still don't know where you get the 4s fuse time from. Both have a fuse time of 5seconds and the same projectile speed/flying arc.

Quote

 

It takes more time to stun if you don't switch to a pistol, and even then it sometimes does if you missed a shot or the ltl opgl shot on the enemy wasn't in radius enough. While lethal suffers the same fate at times, the ltl one still suffers from LTL mechanics, and other drawbacks (being inheritely weaker).

Seriously? You argue that CD is weaker due to potential misses? Lethal doesn't suffer "same fate at times" it's the same gun. That's not even a valid point for a balance discussion.

They are the exact same weapon in that regard in fact CD is stronger due to the larger max radius giving more leeway for an actual hit then the lethal counterpart.

See what this means? CD is the stronger GL apart from the mechanic that it still requires an arrest (even optional with lethal sidearm; also elaborate on other drawbacks please).

So all your points that you're trying to make lead back to CD being the more powerful gun? So come again why I ask for it to be brought in line.

 

It's almost like the game is clearly not intended to be played solo (it's even disabled in the games mechanics).

So maybe just maybe that should be partly taken into account when thinking about balance.

 

A real pity that you keep trying to slander my position by trying to pull it into those subjective levels of favoritism when all I ever did was give you hard objective facts.

But I will gladly disprove your last accusation too: I mained enf and maxed cop before even starting a crim.

Also no idea who you think I am but I started on Obeya and migrated to Patriot before the merge (what does that even matter? More of opinion based standpoints?).

 

Edited January 23, 2019 by TheJellyGoo

[Clandestine 390]

9 hours ago, Fortune Runner said:

by that logic if you lost to bb gun users because they coordinated then the bb gun would be overpowered.....which wouldn't be true at all *shrugs*

Everything can be OP if used correctly.

[Zuey 3]

I find them annoying to verse but i wouldn't call that op, no.

[notHunky 32]

I think everyone's missing the point by comparing the OPGL CD to the regular OPGL. This isn't a lethal weapon and shouldn't be compared to one. It's more like a primary PIG which has much better range, a huge area of effect, and 4 rounds per magazine. People are saying it's cheap because it has the same problems associated with quick switching like the NHVR 762 used to have, except worse since this is an AOE weapon which goes around corners and bypasses some forms of cover.

 

Also because this is a LTL weapon instead of being lethal, this weapon basically ignores green mods like kevlar, clotting agent, and flak jacket. Even if you avoid taking the full 980 (cherry tap = stun) damage, in most cases it will take longer to recover from because clotting agent 3 doesn't work on stamina regeneration. Kevlar and flack jacket don't protect you either. Fragile users on the other hand are a bit ridiculous because their stamina isn't reduced like their health is.

 

Probably going to be an unpopular opinion here but I think the way LTL weapons work could use a rework. For example, Instead of just making LTL weapons weaker than lethal counterparts but severely punishing to criminals, would it be better if LTL weapons were strong as their lethal counterparts, did not increase spawn times, but instead gave large cash and experience rewards to players who successfully arrest criminals?

Edited January 24, 2019 by notHunky

[Noob_Guardian 418]

On 1/23/2019 at 10:21 AM, TheJellyGoo said:

So following your argumentation 1shot should be a non issue since people can just walk out of the radius anyway. After all what are 2m 1shot radius compared to a reduction from 10m to 7.5m radius.

It all comes back to my point that when just comparing the 2-shot ability which poses a far higher threat than the odd one-shot here and there that the CD is stronger.

Comparing stats isn't all in a balance discussion if one doesn't know how they apply ingame and what it means in terms of viability.

 

I still don't know where you get the 4s fuse time from. Both have a fuse time of 5seconds and the same projectile speed/flying arc.

Seriously? You argue that CD is weaker due to potential misses? Lethal doesn't suffer "same fate at times" it's the same gun. That's not even a valid point for a balance discussion.

They are the exact same weapon in that regard in fact CD is stronger due to the larger max radius giving more leeway for an actual hit then the lethal counterpart.

See what this means? CD is the stronger GL apart from the mechanic that it still requires an arrest (even optional with lethal sidearm; also elaborate on other drawbacks please).

So all your points that you're trying to make lead back to CD being the more powerful gun? So come again why I ask for it to be brought in line.

 

It's almost like the game is clearly not intended to be played solo (it's even disabled in the games mechanics).

So maybe just maybe that should be partly taken into account when thinking about balance.

 

A real pity that you keep trying to slander my position by trying to pull it into those subjective levels of favoritism when all I ever did was give you hard objective facts.

But I will gladly disprove your last accusation too: I mained enf and maxed cop before even starting a crim.

Also no idea who you think I am but I started on Obeya and migrated to Patriot before the merge (what does that even matter? More of opinion based standpoints?).

 

How is it a bigger threat if in general it has a higher tts than the ttk of the lethal opgl in "using your primary only" situations? You can mod the OPGL, not the CD, and the lethal opgl works far better in general because most people don't play ltl groups. You can say its far more powerful and the lethal version when switching to a pistol and firing but then you'd be lying, because their timers are the same, making the difference whether you equip your pistol fast enough to stun or kill before the timer goes off the deciding factor. (The lethal one pistol kills faster than the stun one can stun and equips faster depending on pistol). Yes it has bigger range, but in itself doesn't make it a broken weapon. A stun also doesn't equate to a kill. The lethal and the cd have a timer of 5 seconds (as you said, i thought it was 4), and a rof of 1.75. This means that the opgl can kill faster than the opgl can stun by 1.75 seconds. If you account into pistols, and marksmanship, the LTL is still beat.

 

Since you like to argue ranges and consider that the "big balancing facter" I'll bite.

 

 

The ltl version has a 1m more distance for a 2 hit stun, compared to the lethal versions 2 hit kill. The lethal version can 1 hit kill at 2m, and 2 hit from 2-5m 3 at 6 and 4 at 7/7.5. The CD has a 0-6m 2 hit stun. If you account for the majority of situations, this is very minor and can be seen as a fair tradeoff in terms of balance for lethal damage for "2 shot distance". So your issue is the CD's  6-10m radius, which allows a 3-4 hit stun. So lets look at that for a second. The opglr at 6m takes 3 hits at 464 damage and at 7m 318 damage for 4 hit kill. At 6m the cd does 564 stamina damage, at 7 472 stamina damage and at 9m it does 288 stamina damage.

The OPGL can one shot, the CD can not. No matter what the lethal version is going to have a faster TTK than the CD by 1.75 seconds (and is actually faster if you add in CJ3.) The range is large yes, however that doesn't make it overpowered. Actually your issue seems to be more aimed at the "holy stamina damage". Even if you made the CD 2 hit stun with the same 7.5m range as the lethal variant (which i feel is unnecessary), It would still be unbalanced to you, as the CD at 7m takes 3 hit stun, and the lethal would be 4 hit kill.

If you calculate rof times into it for different ranges. The 3 opgl-cd shots at that range, the tts for that, is going to be 5+1.75+1.75, which means 8.5 seconds before you get stunned at 6-8m from the radius, and if you are at 9-10m you are looking at another 1.75s ontop of that, making it ~10.25 seconds to be stunned at 10m if you aren't hit by the impacts any closer than that. The lethal version has a range of 7.5m, and can 4 hit up to the 7.5m, and 3 hits a 6m. At 7m from the radius, thats going to be 10.25 seconds. 5s for 2m 6.75 at 3-5m and 8.5s at 6m.

LTL also has the issue of having to move to the player and handcuff him as well.

Now, if you get hit with the first shot, you wont be able to run, your movement speed goes from 6m/s to roughly 1.2? m/s, so you likely won't escape from the following blasts. Because of how much stamina damage is dealt. So really the real issue isn't the range like you suggest, but the amount of stamina damage dealt in the 6m as it is 980 at 1m and drops to 564 at 6m, and decreases from the rest. Now, the slowdown from stamina damage occurs at what point? (I think its like 75%? Stamina damage? Unless it occurs in stages sprint/run/walk i've never looked into it) That means you have to be within 4m of the blast to be hit with the stamina slowdown "walk speed". So at 5m you have to run from the next shot and move roughly 5m from the next shot radius. Which it takes 1s to move 6m and with a 1.75 primer time, and 5 second timer. Unless the guy hits them off the walls above you and hits you that way, you should have plenty of time to move out of the way if you aren't within that 4m radius.
 

 

 

They disabled solo mechanics after years of complaints, and quite frankly 2v2 should be as well. It was not because 1v1 is broke, as much as the fact that most game locations are meant for 4v4 group play and 1v1's ended up being a massive waste of time for most players.

 

 How a weapon performs in general doesn't need a discussion about "group play" brought into it considering that you didn't need "group play" to figure out that things like jump shooting and qsing are(were) broken, nor that the past csg was broken. In fact, a lot of this game occurs in 1v1 situations, even while in a team. So how a weapon handles in 1v1 is often emphasized. Which is why you'll rarely see weapons like the norsemen and the Aces in Jericho (hint: its because they suck in 1v1 combat).

 

Hard facts like what? Your opinion that you feel the OPGL CD, is overpowered and needs nerfed? Because it has "range". If you are to consider the ltl opgl "overpowered" it is not because of the range, but rather the stamina damage. As the information i provided would suggest, that is if you were looking hard for excuses to nerf the weapon.

 

I assumed Colby, sorry, the reason is simple, we play on different servers and have had different experiences with grenade launcher usage, and gameplay styles. You said people didn't main OPGL there, people did here, hence why i said people mained it.

 

Merged.

On 1/24/2019 at 10:53 PM, notHunky said:

I think everyone's missing the point by comparing the OPGL CD to the regular OPGL. This isn't a lethal weapon and shouldn't be compared to one. It's more like a primary PIG which has much better range, a huge area of effect, and 4 rounds per magazine. People are saying it's cheap because it has the same problems associated with quick switching like the NHVR 762 used to have, except worse since this is an AOE weapon which goes around corners and bypasses some forms of cover.

 

Also because this is a LTL weapon instead of being lethal, this weapon basically ignores green mods like kevlar, clotting agent, and flak jacket. Even if you avoid taking the full 980 (cherry tap = stun) damage, in most cases it will take longer to recover from because clotting agent 3 doesn't work on stamina regeneration. Kevlar and flack jacket don't protect you either. Fragile users on the other hand are a bit ridiculous because their stamina isn't reduced like their health is.

 

Probably going to be an unpopular opinion here but I think the way LTL weapons work could use a rework. For example, Instead of just making LTL weapons weaker than lethal counterparts but severely punishing to criminals, would it be better if LTL weapons were strong as their lethal counterparts, did not increase spawn times, but instead gave large cash and experience rewards to players who successfully arrest criminals?

horrible analogy, the lethal opgl is the only weapon that is related similarly to the CD which is why there is the discussion of balance based on it. They have said for a while that ltl may get a rework, such as getting special ammo for in lethal weapons and other suggestions. (I think it would be great) but that was also before LO and so i have no clue what is happening.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Noob_Guardian

[Nymphi--DoubleDee 83]

On 1/14/2019 at 2:36 PM, Nite said:

Problem with that though is that losing that much stamina prevents you sprinting, which is 99% as good as being dead anyway (you won't be able to avoid the next round without sprinting if the CD user is accurate enough)

Meanwhile, if it were lethal, you'd be dead.

 

But with LTL, there is a chance for you to be saved, and not have to deal with respawn.

 

If you think LTL is OP, you need to get good.

 

[Nite 261]

6 hours ago, Nymphi--DoubleDee said:

Meanwhile, if it were lethal, you'd be dead.

 

But with LTL, there is a chance for you to be saved, and not have to deal with respawn.

 

If you think LTL is OP, you need to get good.

 

Heh this is quite the late reply Nymphi, I actually forgot this thread was still going on.

 

I'm not gonna hold to the idea that "LTL is OP" or anything like that, but I do hold that the stun-PGL is the one LTL that is every bit as effective as its lethal counterpart, if not more so.

 

Also, to be saved from LTL you need to have been arrested first, but the enemy team doesn't have to arrest you, they can just kill you every time you get stunned by the AoE spam. Its not like the stun-PGL guy is the only guy on the OpFor after all.

[Nymphi--DoubleDee 83]

19 hours ago, Nite said:

Heh this is quite the late reply Nymphi, I actually forgot this thread was still going on.

 

I'm not gonna hold to the idea that "LTL is OP" or anything like that, but I do hold that the stun-PGL is the one LTL that is every bit as effective as its lethal counterpart, if not more so.

 

Also, to be saved from LTL you need to have been arrested first, but the enemy team doesn't have to arrest you, they can just kill you every time you get stunned by the AoE spam. Its not like the stun-PGL guy is the only guy on the OpFor after all.

Oh yeah? Well... I don't look at ates. I just reply.

 

But yeah... The hardest part of LTL is teammates. Kill steals and just plain being dumb are the largest hurdles. And even then... Yer still dead.

[Cheeseburger! 47]

Opgl op? You just run towards the enemy shooting grenades at you. They overshoot every time.

 

While out in the open because they think they were God with that opgl, they panic and try to switch to secondary. That's when you get em.

[Mitne 724]

Stun OPGL is so op that I prefer lethal version over stun one.

And stun nades only instant-stun if you hit someone litteraly directly with them.

Unless you are clueless player, you should be pretty fine countering this...

[TheMessiah 430]

im tired of this hypocrites when comes to op weapons and in same time they cook nades all the time and try to get easy kill this way..just stop..so many weapons got nerfd cause of u