OTW 8/17 Balance changes

[dett2 64]

Please revert shotgun changes.
N-TEC is fine now.
Shredder is broken fix it first.
I tested OTW still shredder is Broken OP!!!!!!!!!

[Noob_Guardian 417]

2 hours ago, dett2 said:

I tested OTW still shredder is Broken OP!!!!!!!!!

or maybe it's not broken?

I feel like the current shredder nerf hype is simply because people don't know how to handle the gun nor counter it.

[dett2 64]

17 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

or maybe it's not broken?

I feel like the current shredder nerf hype is simply because people don't know how to handle the gun nor counter it.

No it's broken.
it's like a first CSG in OTW.

[Siamsol 31]

Shotgun consistency is fine for the actual shotguns, the ones that are meant to work point-blank. For more marksman-esque shotguns like the Shredder and Thumper, these consistency changes are insanely powerful and not fun at all to fight against. Shredder's rate of fire should be reverted, and I agree with that, but the range of these two guns needs to be seriously looked at. The Shredder and Thumper are more consistent into mid-range than even SMGs, which is ridiculous. The effective range and damage fall-off of these two needs to be cut down by a lot, perhaps even halving where it is at now. No exaggeration.

On top of this, I've made a post about how the shotgun changes affect fragile. Shredder coming back to 0.42s puts it in line with the OBIR's 0.45s as the fastest fragile-killing guns. Thumper is sitting at 0.30s, 2 shots, to kill fragile from full health. If it wasn't a marksman shotgun, it wouldn't be so bad, but it's just as ridiculously long-ranged as the Shredder.

In my opinion, the benefit of the marksman shotguns should not be increased range. The benefit of marksman shotguns should be tighter grouping on pellets, allowing more precise firing. Even if their damage fall-off range is short, the accuracy benefit of marksman shotguns makes them do more effective damage at range, thus conferring an advantage without having an actual statistical range bonus. And that's how it should be - shotguns are shotguns, they should drop-off harshly, and marksman versions should offer a way to offset that drop-off without changing its values. On top of that, the other primary benefit of tighter grouping is that they're inherently more consistent. It's far more likely to land additional pellets with a marksman shotgun, meaning they need less of this "shotgun consistency" balance-pass. Marksman shotguns should be far closer to before you inherited the game, because they're already formulated to be more consistent. Ipso facto, giving them even more consistency is why they're launching well into overpowered territory.

Shredder and Thumper are ruining my enjoyment of this game right now, more than anything G1 ever did - and I've been playing since Open Beta. These two guns are completely breaking the game, and no amount of "gentle" touch-ups are going to make them fun to play against. I'm generally in favor of switching things up - I'm more than willing to try everything else in this second balance-pass, and I wouldn't even complain about N-Tec changes - so I hope my extreme disapproval of the Shredder and Thumper changes means a bit more in that light.

[PingOVER9000 189]

Hi everybody,

I appreciate the change for Improved Rifling, now the role in matchups are more EQULIBRATE and request more collaboration between teamates.

The HVR in my opinion with this change got A BUFF, because now for taking out sniper users, need  absoluty collaboration or another sniper user in team(yes u can charge directly against him but 90% times you have to challenge also his teamates togheter around him and if your name is not RAMBO you will get REKT XD).

N-tec LEAVE like that, it's so POPULAR because it's unblockable early and it's just making his role in MEDIUM RANGE, IF YOU WANT LESS NTEC USER, let other assault rifles like ATAC, FAR etc.. SELLABLE at NPC.

Then the NTEC between the assault rifles is the more adapt for pure MEDIUM RANGE,  ATAC  is more adapt for close/medium range, STAR same but with the cost of a lower TTK,  NTEC URSUS is pretty good at MEDIUM/LONG RANGE, FAR in my opinion WIN THE CONTEST I found it's more versatile than any other assault rifles.

Then I don't got it why make a problem for the popularity of NTEC, in game from when I have begun, that I have just seen it's a INVASION OF SHOTGUN AND NFAS  

[Mozie 54]

On 8/17/2018 at 9:00 PM, CookiePuss said:

Say what you will about LO, they are clearly not afraid of change.
Testing this is gonna be fun, so lets all get on OTW to do our part.
Remember, if you dont join in the testing, YOU DONT GET TO COMPLAIN!

Anyhoo, if anyone sees me on, HMU.
Im happy to volunteer for data gathering ie: letting you kill me.

IF you need to actually test this Then id say your mechanical knowledge is horrible. Ill piss on all changes. LO is listening to the wrong part of the playerbase and Will pay for it in population just like G1.

[CookiePuss 5373]

1 hour ago, Mozie said:

On 8/17/2018 at 2:00 PM, CookiePuss said:

Say what you will about LO, they are clearly not afraid of change.
Testing this is gonna be fun, so lets all get on OTW to do our part.
Remember, if you dont join in the testing, YOU DONT GET TO COMPLAIN!

Anyhoo, if anyone sees me on, HMU.
Im happy to volunteer for data gathering ie: letting you kill me.

IF you need to actually test this Then id say your mechanical knowledge is horrible. Ill piss on all changes. LO is listening to the wrong part of the playerbase and Will pay for it in population just like G1.

k.

[Kempington 295]

2 hours ago, Mozie said:

On 8/17/2018 at 8:00 PM, CookiePuss said:

Say what you will about LO, they are clearly not afraid of change.
Testing this is gonna be fun, so lets all get on OTW to do our part.
Remember, if you dont join in the testing, YOU DONT GET TO COMPLAIN!

Anyhoo, if anyone sees me on, HMU.
Im happy to volunteer for data gathering ie: letting you kill me.

IF you need to actually test this Then id say your mechanical knowledge is horrible. Ill piss on all changes. LO is listening to the wrong part of the playerbase and Will pay for it in population just like G1.

Sadly, that's the wrong attitude to have. You may be well mechanically versed, but it's still recommended you give the changes a try and see what you think. Give it a proper run through against people of equal skill to you. Maybe try to get your friends on to help organise some arranged matches and really give the changes a try. Try the other weapons out that you don't have on live, too. You might find one or two that you might be interested in that could be an alternative setup to what you're usually comfortable with.

[Keshi 436]

I am sure most people disagree with the changes LO made because this game has been using the same meta's since 2012...
These changes is what needed to balance the game and make people ACTUALLY USE the other weapons now that u barely see. The useless guns that are now not so useless anymore.
Ofcourse some things(like the shredder) need some tweaking still but so far so good. LO is doing a great job and they should continue with the balances.

[CookiePuss 5373]

Part of me wishes no changes would go live until all changes are final.
Obviously limited OTW pop makes that impossible.
But in a perfect world, that's what would happen. (imo)

As it is now, we are sort of getting one world smashing change after another... fixing one thing, and breaking several others.
Its going to make for a tumultuous next few months I think.
While I am confident LO will find a balance, I just hope there's enough of us left at that point for it to have been worthwhile.


 

Edited August 21, 2018 by CookiePuss

[Keshi 436]

3 minutes ago, CookiePuss said:

Part of me wishes no changes would go live until all changes are final.
Obviously limited OTW pop makes that impossible.
But in a perfect world, that's what would happen. (imo)

As it is now, we are sort of getting one world smashing change after another... fixing one thing, and breaking several others.
Its going to make for a tumultuous next few months I think.
While I am confident LO will find a balance, I just hope there's enough of us left at that point for it to have been worthwhile.


 

UE3.5 will bring a lot of people back if that ever goes live tho

[Nemoss 2]

Rifling still reduces fire rate?

[CookiePuss 5373]

21 minutes ago, Nemoss said:

Rifling still reduces fire rate?

Yes.

[Nessie 81]

Soo... just curious, how do all changes affect the standard STAR+FBW loadout?

Considering that new players will mostly stick to the only free permanent weapons they have, I suppose it's a priority of LO to keep those two weapons relevant in most situations. In fact, other than the NTEC being exageratedly good, the STAR used to be a very good jack-of-all-trades, that didn't really shine on specific spots but did play well in most situations.

But with all this "balance", does it remain good or did LO unconsciously ruin one of the few remaining basic pillars of the game?

Edited August 21, 2018 by Nessie

[Nemoss 2]

37 minutes ago, CookiePuss said:

58 minutes ago, Nemoss said:

Rifling still reduces fire rate?

Yes.

So they reduced csg basic fire rate and IR reduces it for another 20%? Devs are insane

[Noob_Guardian 417]

19 hours ago, Siamsol said:

Shotgun consistency is fine for the actual shotguns, the ones that are meant to work point-blank. For more marksman-esque shotguns like the Shredder and Thumper, these consistency changes are insanely powerful and not fun at all to fight against. Shredder's rate of fire should be reverted, and I agree with that, but the range of these two guns needs to be seriously looked at. The Shredder and Thumper are more consistent into mid-range than even SMGs, which is ridiculous. The effective range and damage fall-off of these two needs to be cut down by a lot, perhaps even halving where it is at now. No exaggeration.

On top of this, I've made a post about how the shotgun changes affect fragile. Shredder coming back to 0.42s puts it in line with the OBIR's 0.45s as the fastest fragile-killing guns. Thumper is sitting at 0.30s, 2 shots, to kill fragile from full health. If it wasn't a marksman shotgun, it wouldn't be so bad, but it's just as ridiculously long-ranged as the Shredder.

In my opinion, the benefit of the marksman shotguns should not be increased range. The benefit of marksman shotguns should be tighter grouping on pellets, allowing more precise firing. Even if their damage fall-off range is short, the accuracy benefit of marksman shotguns makes them do more effective damage at range, thus conferring an advantage without having an actual statistical range bonus. And that's how it should be - shotguns are shotguns, they should drop-off harshly, and marksman versions should offer a way to offset that drop-off without changing its values. On top of that, the other primary benefit of tighter grouping is that they're inherently more consistent. It's far more likely to land additional pellets with a marksman shotgun, meaning they need less of this "shotgun consistency" balance-pass. Marksman shotguns should be far closer to before you inherited the game, because they're already formulated to be more consistent. Ipso facto, giving them even more consistency is why they're launching well into overpowered territory.

Shredder and Thumper are ruining my enjoyment of this game right now, more than anything G1 ever did - and I've been playing since Open Beta. These two guns are completely breaking the game, and no amount of "gentle" touch-ups are going to make them fun to play against. I'm generally in favor of switching things up - I'm more than willing to try everything else in this second balance-pass, and I wouldn't even complain about N-Tec changes - so I hope my extreme disapproval of the Shredder and Thumper changes means a bit more in that light.

My shredder has a ttk of ~.84s up to 23/25m. That's pretty balanced for a cqc weapon in the 30m range when you consider every other weapon in its niche, i've also never faced a shredder that i've not been able to beat in cqc without a hitch.

Shredder is meant to have a niche up to 25/30mm, its niche isn't "cqc" with the jg/csg, its niche is further than that due to its high ttk. Strife doesn't follow this but it does massive damage instead. Also, their "accuracy and spread" consistency are also what severely hurts them in cqc in comparison to jg and csg which have a bigger spread causing more pellots to hit if innacurate. at 5m slightly miss with a shredder you've missed most if not all your shot, csg/jg still hits.

Shredder has always had a 30m range, the difference is that it was always outttk'd by ntecs and other guns because you could fire 3 hits at 15m and kill someone, do it again and take 5 for no reason other than hitreg or 3 at 25 one moment and then 8 the next.

The shotguns were NEVER balanced around fragile.

Shredder fairly consistently hits its ttk in 20-30m at 3-5/6 hits, yes, but that's also a .84-1.68 to .99-1.88 ttk. I had someone today say my shredder was op after getting hit with a frag and being 4 hit at ~30m with a shredder, no joke he stood in the open at ~30m after being hit with a grenade and got hit for ~1.3 seconds and then cried OP.






Though I will say - In before they nerf the Kickback JMB Shotgun pistol for having a 3 hit 18m range. Edited August 21, 2018 by Noob_Guardian

[SirEdwin 4]

Guys, what about RFP "fang", will it be changed? improved rifling affects its burst fire-rate and also bullet speed ... normal rfp bought from contacts beats it both at close and long range ...
Also SAS-PDW "falcon" has ir 1 in it as modification. So i would recommend some specific changes to the range and fire-rate.

[CookiePuss 5373]

5 minutes ago, SirEdwin said:

Guys, what about RFP "fang", will it be changed? improved rifling affects its burst fire-rate and also bullet speed ... normal rfp bought from contacts beats it both at close and long range ...
Also SAS-PDW "falcon" has ir 1 in it as modification. So i would recommend some specific changes to the range and fire-rate.

Fang is already affected by the IR change. 
It now has greater range than other RFPs, but a slower burst interval. 

[dett2 64]

1 hour ago, Noob_Guardian said:

My shredder has a ttk of ~.99s up to 23/25m. That's pretty balanced for a cqc weapon in the 30m range when you consider every other weapon in its niche, i've also never faced a shredder that i've not been able to beat in cqc without a hitch.

Shredder is meant to have a niche up to 25/30mm, its niche isn't "cqc" with the jg/csg, its niche is further than that due to its high ttk. Strife doesn't follow this but it does massive damage instead. Also, their "accuracy and spread" consistency are also what severely hurts them in cqc in comparison to jg and csg which have a bigger spread causing more pellots to hit if innacurate. at 5m slightly miss with a shredder you've missed most if not all your shot, csg/jg still hits.

Shredder has always had a 30m range, the difference is that it was always outttk'd by ntecs and other guns because you could fire 3 hits at 15m and kill someone, do it again and take 5 for no reason other than hitreg or 3 at 25 one moment and then 8 the next.

The shotguns were NEVER balanced around fragile.

Shredder fairly consistently hits its ttk in 20-30m at 3-5/6 hits, yes, but that's also a .84-1.68 to .99-1.88 ttk. I had someone today say my shredder was op after getting hit with a frag and being 4 hit at ~30m with a shredder, no joke he stood in the open at ~30m after being hit with a grenade and got hit for ~1.3 seconds and then cried OP.






Though I will say - In before they nerf the Kickback JMB Shotgun pistol for having a 3 hit 18m range.

high ttk???
i remember the ttk is 0.74 (with CJ3 0.69 sec). and the range is over 20m. less spread.
its good in 0-30m and easy to use , its completely broken. Edited August 21, 2018 by dett2

[vsb 6170]

1 hour ago, dett2 said:

high ttk???
i remember the ttk is 0.74 (with CJ3 0.69 sec). and the range is over 20m. less spread.
its good in 0-30m and easy to use , its completely broken.

atac is .7s for 50m and it’s piss easy to use, it’s balanced just fine  
 

[Noob_Guardian 417]

2 hours ago, dett2 said:

high ttk???
i remember the ttk is 0.74 (with CJ3 0.69 sec). and the range is over 20m. less spread.
its good in 0-30m and easy to use , its completely broken.

Mine is the IR3 preset with a .83/4 ttk the normal one is lower. I've never seen the CJ shredder, infact, in the last 2 weeks i have seen exactly 0 cj 3 shredders. Z-E-R-O, in fact the majority of shotguns i've seen are csgs and jgs, NOT shredders.

The Range is ofc ~22/23m for 3 shot 4+ onward for the cj3 variant. CJ3 actually INCREASES spread btw, not decreases, ever actually test that on any shotgun? it's right there in the fine print on the mod

I was thinking .99 there because i forgot I already applied IR3 for the .84 lol my bad on that fixed in post.

Now, do I think thats broke with Cj? I can see the issue, but the only way to fix would be to nerf the ttk even more and thus nerfing the already balanced preset variant. Because nerfing anything else would make it worthless to use, especially against the current CSG/JG/OCA/PMG. The only thing that makes it stand out and keep it somewhat in a balanced state is that it dominates in it's 20-30m niche where very few other weapons actually compete.

SMGS worsen past 15m especially at 20m, and AR's are decent there, but BXXN is right, the ATAC is really good at 20m-30m and has a .7ttk, actually faster with cj but that's its only real competitor other than ntec and carbine. That's not an "shredder is op" fault, that's simply because it is in its own niche.

Easy to use doesn't mean broken, star is easy but its not broken, hvr is easy but isn't broken, atac is easy but not broken, far is easy but not broken. Edited August 21, 2018 by Noob_Guardian

[Siamsol 31]

You're completely missing my point that I agree that the Shredder should be better at range than the other shotguns. I have simply said that its range benefit should not be from actual damage fall-off range, but just from pellet grouping making it more accurate at range and thus higher ranged DPS than the more inaccurate shotguns. Giving it extra damage fall-off range on top of pellet grouping means it over-performs, since it is double-dipping mid-range bonuses.

The point is that Shredder's pellets should drop-off the same as other shotguns over range. Being able to hit full blasts at mid-range is enough of a benefit to its ranged capabilities, making it distinct from the other shotguns.

If its benefit is accuracy, then accuracy should be what benefits it. Not damage drop-off range. When you stack these two upsides, that's when it goes from being a "separate but distinct" choice to being a "straight-up better" choice.


As for fragile not being considered when the shotguns were changed, yes. That's my point. It wasn't considered. It should be. LO has ignored the fragile TTK floor of ~0.45s from OBIR, and are adjusting Shredder back to 0.42s. I'm simply adding that the Thumper's 0.30s fragile TTK significantly deviates from that floor value, and should be considered for future changes.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Siamsol

[dett2 64]

25 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

Mine is the IR3 preset with a .83/4 ttk the normal one is lower. I've never seen the CJ shredder, infact, in the last 2 weeks i have seen exactly 0 cj 3 shredders. Z-E-R-O, in fact the majority of shotguns i've seen are csgs and jgs, NOT shredders.

The Range is ofc ~22/23m for 3 shot 4+ onward for the cj3 variant. CJ3 actually INCREASES spread btw, not decreases, ever actually test that on any shotgun? it's right there in the fine print on the mod

I was thinking .99 there because i forgot I already applied IR3 for the .84 lol my bad on that fixed in post.

Now, do I think thats broke with Cj? I can see the issue, but the only way to fix would be to nerf the ttk even more and thus nerfing the already balanced preset variant. Because nerfing anything else would make it worthless to use, especially against the current CSG/JG/OCA/PMG. The only thing that makes it stand out and keep it somewhat in a balanced state is that it dominates in it's 20-30m niche where very few other weapons actually compete.

SMGS worsen past 15m especially at 20m, and AR's are decent there, but BXXN is right, the ATAC is really good at 20m-30m and has a .7ttk, actually faster with cj but that's its only real competitor other than ntec and carbine. That's not an "shredder is op" fault, that's simply because it is in its own niche.

Easy to use doesn't mean broken, star is easy but its not broken, hvr is easy but isn't broken, atac is easy but not broken, far is easy but not broken.

Do you think , easy to hit , 3shot kill smg (ttk0.74) is balanced? 

 

[vsb 6170]

18 minutes ago, dett2 said:

Do you think , easy to hit , 3shot kill smg (ttk0.74) is balanced? 

 

yes? in fact it would probably be underpowered 

[Noob_Guardian 417]

2 hours ago, dett2 said:

Do you think , easy to hit , 3shot kill smg (ttk0.74) is balanced? 

 

depends, what's its "intended" range?

CSG and JG for example should 2 hit up to at least 5-7m
OCA and PMG should be able to 8 hit up to 15-20m
Atac should reliably 8 hit up to 20-30m

and each weapon for the most part, does hit those ttks in their ranges if you don't miss except AR's where at range you need to tap/burst thus artificially increasing their ttk.

Those are their optimal intended ranges, if an easy to hit 3 hit kill smg with a .74 ttk came out, i'd call it balanced depending on its range. If it had a 50m range i probably wouldn't call it balanced and ask for it to be increased to ~.75/.8 due to range and ease. If it was 20m i wouldn't be calling it overpowered, if it was 24m for a 4 hit with it unmodded, i'd say it is indeed balanced.

The weapon in question is balanced until you mod it in a specific manner, and ONLY in that manner. Not only that but it's intended range is in a sweet spot where other weapons start to become worse, causing it to shine. This does not make it overpowered, as it has its own special niche. Learn to play against that niche and you should do fine. Edited August 22, 2018 by Noob_Guardian