Weapon Balance OTW Tweaks - C/D Testing Values

[LazyLizard 41]

Here's my two cents: Shotguns no longer being broken? Hooray! Shotguns being way too effective at range at the moment? Boo! Needs a slight nerf.

Additionally, the Showstopper's 'Thunder' variant is just way too fucking powerful in my opinion. Considering i can basically destroy someone within 20m with just 2 shots.

[Ashley 19]

21% is far too strong of a downside for ROF and in no way is it a backhanded upside, as people are plenty capable of tap-firing at a lower rate than max ROF and do so all the time on many weapons. It's a straight negative and +7m in increased range is definitely not enough to counterbalance that negative. As it exists now, IR3 is used often mainly because it has a marginal upside with very little to no downside on most weapons. In other words, people use it because of the (lack of) downside rather than because of the upside.

It's not an overpowered modification, it's just as close as you can get to a weapon mod with no downside on many guns so it gets used as a default.

[notHunky 32]

I haven’t had a chance to test the weapons on Baylan D, but so far on Baylan C I am extremely impressed with all the changes and hope they go live soon. I wouldn’t change anything about the showstopper variants either. They’re perfect.

There’s only two things I need to know.

• Will the Oblivion be able to be fired out of car windows to make it competitive with other mobile sniper rifles?
• Please tell me we will get the Bendis and Dianna variants of the ISSR-A rifle. I NEED a stock on my rifle  

Either way, this is great moving forward.

[Frosi 722]

The improved Rifling change is horrific and way too drastic, you'll be turning it from one of the best mods to one of THE WORST mods in the game. A 20% increase in TTK will make the mod completely worthless even on "Guns with high recoil". 7 Meters more range but a 20% increase in TTK will simply not work out and will also make a lot of guns like the Oscar, CSG Pr1/Pr2 completely worthless. 

I personally don't think that IR3 makes most guns "broken" there are a few exceptions but please consider nerfing those individually rather than nerfing the mod as a whole.

Some of the exceptions are the following

RFP "Fang" - Reduce the guns range by 10 meters and turn it from a 1.0 TTK to a 1,2/1,3 TTK.
N-tec 5 - This is the most versatile gun in the game for a reason, it does everything a weapon in APB needs to do while also being easy to use. It has great tap firing and therefore range and it also has one of the most forgiving spraying capabilities in the game due to its low max bloom and very fast bloom recovery. I don't think the N-tec is broken because of IR3, it's broken because it can be used at any range up to roughly 70 meters. I expect a simple increase in max bloom and in how fast it blooms would put the gun in a much better state so it isn't used as the go-to weapon.
OBIR - A gun that always uses IR3, however again the gun is completely fine although there should be something in place to prevent reverse quick switching so you can't apply 500 damage in CQC and then instantly switch to your FBW and 3 shot your target.

I beg you to please consider this change, a decrease in rate of fire will not work out as well as you may think in APB and could make the mod completely worthless and with it a lot of other weapons.

/// EDIT CSG Pr1/2 seems fine however I still disagree with the change being on anything but shotguns. There are other ways to reduce the effectiveness of weapons that rely on IR3 rather than making the mod worthless. There are plenty of modifications that have a downside far less severe than IR3, you'd be better off looking at the weapons it doesn't have an impact on rather than nerfing the mod itself. However those weapons it doesn't have an impact on are often considered the most balanced weapons in the game such as the OSCAR. I'm fairly certain you'd be killing more guns with the IR3 change (such as the N-tec-7 Ursus) than fixing. You'd go from nerfing some weapons the past IR3 downside had no effect on to completely killing certain guns that had to use IR3 to make them even remotely viable.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Frosi

[Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 269]

The Showstopper 'Thunder' doesn't need the -33% fire rate. Makes it a bit too good as a secondary shotgun. It was fine at -50% fire rate

[CookiePuss 5382]

25 minutes ago, GhosT said:

Can we not ruin the ogre now that it's okay?

But they should fix the description.

why not just fix the description on the yukon then?

[notHunky 32]

18 minutes ago, LazyLizard said:

Here's my two cents: Shotguns no longer being broken? Hooray! Shotguns being way too effective at range at the moment? Boo! Needs a slight nerf.

Additionally, the Showstopper's 'Thunder' variant is just way too fucking powerful in my opinion. Considering i can basically destroy someone within 20m with just 2 shots.

I just tested that variant in Baylan C. We found that hitting center mass at 18 meters and under you can kill in three shots with the thunder. At 19-20 meters it starts killing in 4 shots. We didn’t test beyond 25 meters though, but it was still killing around 4 shots at that range.

[Kewlin 692]

Just a reminder BTW that IIRC this was supposed to be a light balance pass.

[Toasted 9]

1 hour ago, MikaSobaka said:

Why is it that everyone thinks the Yukon will suddenly be useless once its bug is fixed? It will simply become like the other mounties, which are pretty decent secondary weapons already. They strike a nice Middle Ground between the best melee weapon in the game, the Nfa9 (knife), and the much higher accuracy SAS PDW.

It only needs 11 out of the 20 shots to kill, thats a lot of wiggle room for something so accurate out to 20m. compare that to the nfa 9 which needs nearly 15 out of 24 and is FAR less accurate.

 I see a ton of people using it to great effect, including myself. People really need to calm down about this change because frankly it doesn't need a ttk of .04

Not even the nfa gets that fast a ttk, and it has to trade accuracy and range just to be able to get close to it.

NFA got buffed to 28 some time ago, and I'm pretty sure the Mounties are slower than the NFA in terms of ttk

[AgentWatson 85]

Just now, notHunky said:

24 minutes ago, LazyLizard said:

Here's my two cents: Shotguns no longer being broken? Hooray! Shotguns being way too effective at range at the moment? Boo! Needs a slight nerf.

Additionally, the Showstopper's 'Thunder' variant is just way too fucking powerful in my opinion. Considering i can basically destroy someone within 20m with just 2 shots.

I just tested that variant in Baylan C. We found that hitting center mass at 18 meters and under you can kill in three shots with the thunder. At 19-20 meters it starts killing in 4 shots. We didn’t test beyond 25 meters though, but it was still killing around 4 shots at that range.

-Which is fine in my opinion, 6 shots and if it takes 3 to kill and 4 to kill at 20m that's 50% or 66% of the mag respectively. You have to take into account the new changes, the damage reduction per pellet. I think a 40% reduction in firerate is a good middle ground for the thunder and an increase to reload time. 

-Shotgun changes seem fine, the Shredder however doesn't really seem that different. An increase of (20)m effective range to (30) would be fine for the shredder. JG may be a little too strong up close and far too consistent, slight reduction in damage per pellet. 

-Improved Rifling change is controversial but I like it, I'd aim more for 5/10/15% middle ground for the modification would be a pretty decent middleground, In step with what a bunch of other people have said the change is pretty consequential for balance. 

Overall, I'm completely fine with a lot of the general changes to other gun but I believe these changes should stay for awhile to see if any other unforeseen consequences arise. 

 

[vsb 6174]

1 hour ago, tennogrineer said:

improved rifling changes (on marksman weapons). for the most part, semi auto weapons stay the same.

• obir/ffa and oscar - OK way since those are burst weapons
• cr762  - fine, pretty much the same firerate you would do for optimal range ttk
• joker carbine and vbr temptress/huntress - okay

however, since they still are hit...it makes the issr (dogear  especially) uncontested. that weapon will certainly be way too strong (more than it already is)
 

beastie has confirmed that the rof negative affects the burst interval and not the fire interval, so all these weapons would get a pretty heavy nerf

[tennogrineer 71]

42 minutes ago, Similarities said:

52 minutes ago, tennogrineer said:

improved rifling changes (on marksman weapons). for the most part, semi auto weapons stay the same.

• joker carbine and vbr temptress/huntress - okay

 

 

dear god no, new IR3 on the carbine will be horrendous.

it's a semi auto, if you were using ir3 it's honestly near the same firerate you have already been doing to maintain accuracy/effectiveness

[MikaSobaka 8]

5 minutes ago, Toasted said:

2 hours ago, MikaSobaka said:

Why is it that everyone thinks the Yukon will suddenly be useless once its bug is fixed? It will simply become like the other mounties, which are pretty decent secondary weapons already. They strike a nice Middle Ground between the best melee weapon in the game, the Nfa9 (knife), and the much higher accuracy SAS PDW.

It only needs 11 out of the 20 shots to kill, thats a lot of wiggle room for something so accurate out to 20m. compare that to the nfa 9 which needs nearly 15 out of 24 and is FAR less accurate.

 I see a ton of people using it to great effect, including myself. People really need to calm down about this change because frankly it doesn't need a ttk of .04

Not even the nfa gets that fast a ttk, and it has to trade accuracy and range just to be able to get close to it.

NFA got buffed to 28 some time ago, and I'm pretty sure the Mounties are slower than the NFA in terms of ttk

Ah, you are correct its 28 now, so thats very comparable in mag size, both kill in about 55-60% of their magazine.

And no the mounties certainly do not kill as quickly as the nfa, nor should they. The nfa struggles to kill anything beyond 10 meters, it is the least accurate secondary. Its incredible TTK comes at great cost, which it should (kills 0.16 faster then the shaw in a full mobility package which can be drawn and fired in under half a second, massively underated).

The mounties kill more then fast enough considering their accuracy.

I mean the yukon was literally killing 0.1 seconds FASTER then the nfa, with nearly 4 times the accuracy.

I think the mounties are in a good place, and therefor, so is the yukon.

The SAS PDW may however need a buff. It doesn't compete with the mounties i feel.

[Tobii 346]

3 hours ago, LO_Beastie said:

Shredder Test C : No Change (Same as DOW, it needed some love).

Shredder is still in a bad place. As much as I like it, it has no place where it shines.
Even with the new system the range is what is causing it's shortcomings.

Right now the best setup for the shredder is IR3, HS3 and MS.
But with the IR3 changes the shredder is now even slower than it was before.
CSG/JG will beat it in 1-10 meters, thunder will beat it up to 15 meters, the only place where it shines is 15-20.. anything after that most guns will destroy it.
At the same time the shredder is not a hipfire weapon, so you can't just run around and shoot at people either.

I feel like you should up the range so you do not have to rely on IR3 and you should lower the spread over range.
I feel like the shredder should be somewhat of a slug shotgun, and that's why it's good on range.


A minor change to the pellet damage and curve and

Dropoff Range - 20m -> 30m
Min Damage Range - 40m -> 50m
Accuracy Radius at 10m - 12cm -> 8cm
Spread at 10m - 45 -> 25cm

The lack of pellets makes it hard to actually kill people at ranges.
Again, take it with a grain of salt.. but the current shredder will be used the same or less. Edited August 4, 2018 by Tobii

[tennogrineer 71]

5 minutes ago, BXNNXD said:

1 hour ago, tennogrineer said:

improved rifling changes (on marksman weapons). for the most part, semi auto weapons stay the same.

• obir/ffa and oscar - OK way since those are burst weapons
• cr762  - fine, pretty much the same firerate you would do for optimal range ttk
• joker carbine and vbr temptress/huntress - okay

however, since they still are hit...it makes the issr (dogear  especially) uncontested. that weapon will certainly be way too strong (more than it already is)
 

beastie has confirmed that the rof negative affects the burst interval and not the fire interval, so all these weapons would get a pretty heavy nerf

well yeah, that's always been the case of fire rate bonuses for burst weapons since forever. much like using cj3 (7%) on an obir/oscar..it hardly does anything to them even when its -21% (which is like 0.45s to 0.35s) Edited August 4, 2018 by tennogrineer

[vsb 6174]

1 minute ago, Tobii said:

Shredder is still in a bad place. As much as I like it, it has no place where it shines.
Even with the new system the range is what is causing it's shortcomings.

Right now the best setup for the shredder is IR3, HS3 and MS.
But with the IR3 changes the shredder is now even slower than it was before.
CSG/JG will beat it in 1-10 meters, thunder will beat it up to 15 meters, the only place where it shines is 15-20.. anything after that most guns will destroy it.
At the same time the shredder is not a hipfire weapon, so you can't just run around and shoot at people either.

I feel like you should up the range so you do not have to rely on IR3 and you should lower the spread over range.
I feel like the shredder should be somewhat of a slug shotgun, and that's why it's good on range.

[image]

A minor change to the pellet damage and curve and

Dropoff Range - 20m -> 30m
Min Damage Range - 40m - 50m
Accuracy Radius at 10m - 12cm -> 8cm
Spread at 10m - 45 -> 25cm

The lack of pellets makes it hard to actually kill people at ranges.
Again, take it with a grain of salt.. but the current shredder will be used the same or less.

supporting any potential shredder buffs

[vsb 6174]

2 minutes ago, tennogrineer said:

well yeah, that's always been the case of fire rate bonuses for burst weapons since forever. much like using cj3 on an obir/oscar...it hardly does anything to them even when its -21% to kill its potential.

it’s not going to affect burst fire weapons in the same way as cj3

[tennogrineer 71]

3 minutes ago, BXNNXD said:

9 minutes ago, tennogrineer said:

well yeah, that's always been the case of fire rate bonuses for burst weapons since forever. much like using cj3 on an obir/oscar...it hardly does anything to them even when its -21% to kill its potential.

it’s not going to affect burst fire weapons in the same way as cj3

you are more than welcome to get on and witness the 0.1s decrease in burst that does not change anything. or you can just keep theory fighting me. the gameplay doesnt change for marksman weapons. Edited August 4, 2018 by tennogrineer

[vsb 6174]

2 minutes ago, tennogrineer said:

you are more than welcome to get on and witness the 0.1s decrease in burst that does not change anything. or you can just keep theory fighting me. the gameplay doesnt change for marksman weapons.

3 hours ago, LO_Beastie said:

This also affects Burst Fire Interval, so it does affect the burst fire rifles and pistols as well (*cough* Fang *cough*),

someone should let @LO_Beastie know that either his post or his balance isn’t correct 

[Kewlin 692]

By the way, why can't you just revert the Anubis to the pre-2015 version, plus a range buff to the current sniper range curve? If you took a history lesson in APB you'd know that the Anubis was fine before they attempted to "buff" it.

P.S. Are you guys doing any in-house testing on any of this stuff before putting it on OTW?

[tennogrineer 71]

2 minutes ago, BXNNXD said:

someone should let @LO_Beastie know that either his post or his balance isn’t correct 

i dont think you are actually reading and comprehending any of my reply, just take a second between spamming and breathe.

• he is correct and i cant make it any clearer that it's near negligible on the obir/oscar.

[Toasted 9]

23 minutes ago, MikaSobaka said:

Ah, you are correct its 28 now, so thats very comparable in mag size, both kill in about 55-60% of their magazine.

And no the mounties certainly do not kill as quickly as the nfa, nor should they. The nfa struggles to kill anything beyond 10 meters, it is the least accurate secondary. Its incredible TTK comes at great cost, which it should (kills 0.16 faster then the shaw in a full mobility package which can be drawn and fired in under half a second, massively underated).

The mounties kill more then fast enough considering their accuracy.

I mean the yukon was literally killing 0.1 seconds FASTER then the nfa, with nearly 4 times the accuracy.

I think the mounties are in a good place, and therefor, so is the yukon.

The SAS PDW may however need a buff. It doesn't compete with the mounties i feel.

This might be a stretch but upping the magazine size to 35 or 38 could make it a straight up pocket smg, and keep the ttk the same for balance as it does occupy the secondary slot.

[CookiePuss 5382]

5 minutes ago, Kewlin said:

P.S. Are you guys doing any in-house testing on any of this stuff before putting it on OTW?

I would like to know this as well as some of these changes are pretty bad off paper and in game. 
And if the answer is yes, who is actually doing the in house testing?

[MikaSobaka 8]

3 minutes ago, Toasted said:

This might be a stretch but upping the magazine size to 35 or 38 could make it a straight up pocket smg, and keep the ttk the same for balance as it does occupy the secondary slot.

Id have to playtest with the SAS PDW for some time, though i did not consider its already 30 round magazine and 13 stk. Its probably fine. il get back to you after some testing.

[tennogrineer 71]

28 minutes ago, MikaSobaka said:

The SAS PDW may however need a buff. It doesn't compete with the mounties i feel.

regarding the pdw, it's still a solid choice and has been a solid choice for a long time. much like the nfa9, the new school of secondaries leave much to be desired, but they are at no means needing a buff in terms of ttk.