Game balance

[MattScott 15245]

This is, and always will be a hot topic in the community and something the game has quite frankly lacked a direction with, recent updates were received with mostly mixed results, some like them, some don’t, but the most recent balance update was followed by a healthy boost in population. Balancing simply needs to happen more frequently and now would be the best time to buff a crap ton of weapons. I personally have already created a 18 page document with weapon-related and some car-related changes which are all buffs except for one thing which is a nerf to the DMR-AV.

 

Another issue lies with map balance. There are countless spots that make for unfun missions – for example, areas such as the buildings in Financial that the community calls “German fortress” as well as many other spots that only have one or two ways to get to, often linked to climbing ladders which in most cases means certain death. Waterfront also needs a lot more cover around common spawn areas such as the big boat and has some nasty areas where spots can only be reached through to props that can be destroyed, this is something the community could be very helpful with when it comes to looking for places to start and getting feedback.

 

“I would like to see a much more aggressive approach when it comes to weapon balance. Progress has most certainly been made, and imo the meta is in a better place when compared to before LO's balance passes, but more needs to be done. If it is possible, I would love to see more rapid-fire changes, or at least faster than the months-long periods between balance passes we have had. The same goes for vehicles though I think vehicles are in a pretty good spot.”  -Community Member

[Goldexen 26]

On 12/6/2022 at 8:21 AM, MattScott said:

one thing which is a nerf to the DMR-AV.

 

Lol? i always thought that this weapon need an buff, not nerf? This thing is already too narrow-specialized and even in it's niche it still performs bad
I don't understand at all 

Also, if you want to change cars' balance - can you, please, fix the spawn of traffic cars that just appears in line of sight from nowhere? I remember times when i tested cars and for first episoded of "Car Comparison" there was a good thing that i could block NPCs from driving on tracks-for-tests, but the more videos i uploaded - the worse situation becoming, like someone specially ruined their spawning (example:APB: Reloaded - Bishada Rapier vs Charge Cisco vs IO Growl: Car comparison)

Edited December 11, 2022 by Goldexen

[CIoud 26]

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Edited September 6, 2023 by who

[guren 8]

One thing that concerns me when it comes to the terminology of weapon balance is which category of balance is truly being promoted. I truly think any type of weapon redesign or impromptu weekly balances really needs to sit on the backburner until all missions are adjusted to an agreeable standard. Certain mission endings can be dictated very early on to us veteran players and I would love to see a redesign around the system notifying a player of what exactly their role is in the mission or objective.

 

One fundamental change I would bring to missions is hacking satellites. This just isn't something incredibly physically demanding to a human being and I for one am tired of watching a 45 second circle of imminent doom while being an open target on a rooftop. We could take bits and pieces of missions or roles of a mission and really iron out the wrinkles with this game, make it more engaging and fun. I believe if we did this and prioritized it a ton of weapons would come back into the spotlight on their own.

[NotZombieBiscuit 3146]

On 12/6/2022 at 2:21 PM, MattScott said:

with weapon-related and some car-related changes which are all buffs

I hope not.

[EerieEric 21]

Cars and Vehicles don't need to be touched as far as I am concerned.   It's the weapons that need a look at.

7 hours ago, temv said:

everyone plays .45 and pretty much everyone plays ntec/pmg/obir.

There is the problem with that, with any game there will always be a 'meta' and so in turn it's virtually impossible to not have just best of the best.

[ColorBauss 74]

What they need to change first in my opinion, is buff the worst weapons like norseman smgs, cobr-a, maybe even ACES (just increase mag size and max ammo lol)

[CookiePuss 5382]

5 hours ago, ColorBauss said:

buff the worst weapons like norseman smgs

Amen, brother.

Add the Coroner and IRS to that list too.

They just collect dust in my locker unless I wanna troll myself.

[ForumUser 7]

I don't see the need to nerf the DMR-AV. The main issue is mission balance, but I think LO is stuck in a tricky spot. What is easier to "fix"? Completely revamping missions/creating new ones or changing numbers on a weapon.

 

As a mostly soloq player who frequently uses the DMR-AV and other ranged-specific weapons, the DMR-AV really only shines when you are uncontested, 95+ m away from the objective or what type of mission, specifically the heavy item ones or paper thin vehicle drop offs come to mind. Against premades/good players, there is rarely a chance you will be uncontested the entire time. So what exactly would be accomplished by nerfing the DMR-AV? You would only promote the use of meta guns rather than variety even more.

[CIoud 26]

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Edited September 6, 2023 by who

[BlatMan 718]

16 hours ago, temv said:

more importantly, why ur not nerfing obir? ntec? far? pmg? guns take 0 skill and dominate on the battlefield. obir and ntec reward players for playing like rats - cornerhugging. idc its a tps, its cancer gameplay. why players still can start coocking nade and cancel it an infinite number of times? idk smth? or mb irl it works a lil bit different? and u r nerfing dmr?

All of those weapons have been nerfed over the years. These are just the changes I remember. I'm sure there's others. To say these guns need more nerfs is insane.

 

OBIR:

- Rate of fire nerfed.

- Sprint delay linked to rate of fire.

- Ammo capacity nerfed.

 

N-TEC:

- Tap firing nerfed due to non linear recoil change.

- Jump shooting accuracy nerfed.

- Damage nerfed.

 

FAR:

- Shot modifier cap increased (less accurate while spraying)

- Jump shooting accuracy nerfed.

- Ammo capacity nerfed.

 

PMG:

- Range nerfed by G1. (50M to 35M)

- Range nerfed again by Little Orbit. (35M to 20M)

- Accuracy nerfed.

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by BlatMan

[CIoud 26]

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Edited September 6, 2023 by who

[BlatMan 718]

1 hour ago, temv said:

ntec nerf's purpose was to give other guns room to be playble. these nerfs didnt help. everyone still runs ntec. same story w pmg and obir, i barely see players play ocas or obeyas, not even talking about other weapons

People started using the Obeya CR762, but then Little Orbit nerfed it's damage so now it takes 11 shots at 80M instead of 8.

 

But that's Little Orbit for you. Over nerf everything. Look at the RFP-9. It was competitive against the .45, now it's worse then every secondary.

[LilyRain 680]

2 hours ago, temv said:

i barely see players play ocas

OCA Players are everywhere.

[CIoud 26]

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Edited September 6, 2023 by who

[R3ACT3M 489]

A big problem with companies looking at game balance is they simply look at how often a gun *wins* a game. And if said gun is not winning games it gets buffed. When in reality the gun gets tons of kills but just doesn't win games and/or is just very unfun to play against. Generally speaking weapons that take less skill to use are what's going to be annoying to fight. So instead of making them weaker, make them take more skill to use.

Edited December 16, 2022 by R3ACT3M

[CIoud 26]

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Edited April 5 by who

[Knite 158]

The details of the 18 page document need to be made public. Any suggestion with such depth cannot go unseen or undiscussed, especially when it's been given directly to the CEO.

[Noob_Guardian 418]

 

On 12/13/2022 at 9:49 PM, BlatMan said:

People started using the Obeya CR762, but then Little Orbit nerfed it's damage so now it takes 11 shots at 80M instead of 8.

 

But that's Little Orbit for you. Over nerf everything. Look at the RFP-9. It was competitive against the .45, now it's worse then every secondary.

8 shots on a 5 htk weapon at 80m is broke, especially when they want snipers to be the dominator at 70-100m. Obeya is still great as is imo, and its great on waterfront, aight on financial. Some weapons are not meant to perform as well in certain areas an maps and that's why WF and Finanical have different weapons that are heavily used in each or change based on location.

 

Also, thats a 1.848 ttk perfect, vs 1.34 ttk for 11 vs 8. When even the HVR has a 1.75TTK. Which means that the obeya is put at range, on a similarl-ish level as the HVR if at perfect ttk currently. Which is a good balance imo. Obeya shouldn't be easily harassing snipers at 80-100m imo. So 11 shots to put it on about equal footing is A-Okay. It could be put down to 10 shots if you account for non-perfect ttk and average play standards, but 8 is certainly too low, 11 is fine for upper tier skill level since they can make the most out of it even at 80+m with the 11 shots.

 

RFP was broke strong, I agree it's in a bad place atm though. But we don't want it to be on the same level as the old sprint shooting or even 0-40m melter that it used to be either when it wasn't balanced right. Also, it's still a decent, gun, but it's more situational, I'd still run it over the NFA and a few other joker box legendaries.

 

I disagree that they overnerf everything. The game's gun balance is in one of the best places it's been. Though it definitely needs a few touchups. And to say that anything that is on equal footing with the .45 is balanced, is a far cry from reality as well. .45 is not greatly balanced, Fr0g however, is in comparison. .45 could take a hit to damage, similar to that as the fr0g's and it'd still be good. Though it might need a +1 shot in the mag to compensate.

 

Merged.

 

4 hours ago, R3ACT3M said:

A big problem with companies looking at game balance is they simply look at how often a gun *wins* a game. And if said gun is not winning games it gets buffed. When in reality the gun gets tons of kills but just doesn't win games and/or is just very unfun to play against. Generally speaking weapons that take less skill to use are what's going to be annoying to fight. So instead of making them weaker, make them take more skill to use.

I believe the last statistics LO and them were using to balance weapons, were not just "wins". But also, usage and average range (distance in game) of kills. I'm not sure about TTK as well at those ranges.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Noob_Guardian

[Frosi 722]

3 hours ago, Knite said:

The details of the 18 page document need to be made public. Any suggestion with such depth cannot go unseen or undiscussed, especially when it's been given directly to the CEO.

The document hasn't been given to Matt, it wasn't linked in the letter at all however he has now seen it because I asked for permissions to make it public since players have been asking to see it to which he said yes so here is the document.

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/167-1L_hXaxFe9a2QMTbHfLsGONCVaEEem2pTP3le97c/edit?usp=sharing

Edited December 16, 2022 by Frosi

[CIoud 26]

2 hours ago, Frosi said:

The document hasn't been given to Matt, it wasn't linked in the letter at all however he has now seen it because I asked for permissions to make it public since players have been asking to see it to which he said yes so here is the document.

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/167-1L_hXaxFe9a2QMTbHfLsGONCVaEEem2pTP3le97c/edit?usp=sharing

Why there are such phrases like "I suggest"? So the whole game balance is determined by 1 SPCT member?

 

I've read few changes.

 

- Norseman A sounds interesting only if you add it to JS (not sure who will buy it when you have 2 best SMGs that are F2P (and those who bought it prob not playing anymore))

Norseman 'Hel' has interesting mechanic. When you fire it long enough - it is in some way become a combination of OSCAR and TG - it has decent accuracy in hip-fire mode like the OSCAR does and it also can "shred" people relatively fast like the TG does. It will be kinda interesting to play over this mechanic.

- ACES changes prob wont make any difference, one person suggested interesting change regarding mag size

- VBR changes prob wont make any difference, it has no problems with reload speed and range

- FAR is broken and you buff it (no one uses it cos ntec or they prob dk bout this gun at all)

- STAR is already very good, you buff it (no one uses it cos ntec or they just consider it boring)

- dk why you nerf RFPs range, just change Fangs mod (at this point it wont make any difference, everyone will still play .45)

 

- wheres tommy gun...? Gun is just weak. Isn't it supposed to be a really good gun, that pretty much melts people, but also takes decent effort like the OSCAR does? Both, OSCAR and M1922 are available through some decent ingame progression, both guns require effort in order to be good (OSCAR requires good aim and ability to maintain fast RoF; M1922 requires good tracking and ability to control the recoil), and only OSCAR can actually destroy people and be a very decent weapon. So why the TG is just weak? Running it with CJ1/2/3 doesn't make it good. It just makes it an absolute "spray and pray" weapon and it's still worse than hip-fire SMGs like OCA / PMG with or without CJ. Decent mag size also doesn't help much, when the weapon justs loses to most of the other guns.

Imagine you are playing TG without CJ at those ranges vs a certain weapon, you put lots of effort in it, is it better than?:

- 0-20m vs OCA / PMG - no

- 20-30m vs Carbine / OSCAR / mb even .45 - no

- 30+m vs ntec / OSCAR / .45 - no

Imagine you are playing TG with CJ at those ranges vs a certain weapon, you doesnt put much effort in it since your crosshair is very big, is it better than?:

- 0-10m vs OCA with CJ (or mb even without) / PMG with CJ (or mb even without) / JG with IR (or mb even without) - no

- 10-30m vs OCA with CJ (or mb even without) / PMG with CJ (or mb even without) / CSG with IR (or mb even without) - no

If 2 players are about the same skill, I personally don't see any room for TG to be a good weapon. And it's not on the list.

Edited December 16, 2022 by temv

[R3ACT3M 489]

6 hours ago, temv said:

at this point u need to make pretty much all weapons to take more skill to use since there are so few guns in apb that actually take real skill to be good with

Agreed

[BlatMan 718]

2 hours ago, Frosi said:

The document hasn't been given to Matt, it wasn't linked in the letter at all. Since players have been asking about it I have asked Matt if I can publish it to which he said yes so here it is.

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/167-1L_hXaxFe9a2QMTbHfLsGONCVaEEem2pTP3le97c/edit?usp=sharing

 

Most changes I'm not against, but there's some that don't make sense.

 

RFP

• fMarksmanshipModifier 0.32 >>> 0.64 - The RFP has issues landing 3 bullets at 30M. If anything, the Per Shot Modifier should be reduced.

• fHealthDamage 110 >>> 133

• fRampDistance 4000 >>> 3000 - I'd leave it at 4000 or at lowest 3500.

• fMinDamageRange 1500 >>> 2000

• nAmmoPoolCapacity 120 >>> 105 - Leave it at 120. It already runs out too fast.

• nMagazineCapacity 24 >>> 21 - Leave it at 24.

• *Change the RFP-9 ‘Fang’’s modification from Improved Rifling 3 to Hunting Sight 3. - I would replace it with piercing. I rather have all the RFP versions have the same accuracy for balance, otherwise you end up with one version being worse like it currently is with the 'Talon'.

 

 

 

FFA Bullshark

• fPerShotModifier 0.2 >>> 0 - You've turned this weapon into a laser. Reduce it to 0.15 or so, but not 0. Maybe this was a typo.

 

DMR AV/SD

• (DMR SD) fRampdistance 8000 >>> 7500 - The two shot feature is kinda overpowered as is. The SD isn't used because there's no meaningful improvement over the AV, but widening the two shot range doesn't feel like the right way to go. I'm not sure what to do with this weapon. I think there's too narrow of a range to properly balance heavy hitting snipers.

Edited December 16, 2022 by BlatMan

[Frosi 722]

27 minutes ago, temv said:

Why there are such phrases like "I suggest"? So the whole game balance is determined by 1 SPCT member?

It is not, the document was done as a passion project of mine but kept the fact that if weapon balance becomes a talking point and LO wants to do something about it in mind, That way I can submit the document in which case the wording makes sense.

 

27 minutes ago, temv said:

- dk why you nerf RFPs range, just change Fangs mod (at this point it wont make any difference, everyone will still play .45)

17 minutes ago, BlatMan said:

Most changes I'm not against, but there's some that don't make sense.

 

RFP

I won't go into the feedback much but I want to point out that both of you seemed to have missed that the RFP changes are a revert to how the RFP used to be when it was the go to pistol in the game and could reliably kill players on 40-47 meters. Also all these changes are subject to change, I don't have access to their tools, I have to do a lot of math for these and often have to guess how certain values interact with each other, many of these values are starting points to iterate from, not something to just ship to the live game and expect to go flawlessly.

27 minutes ago, temv said:

- wheres tommy gun...? 

I agree that the Tommy gun needs some love, its a bit of an oversight that its not in the document but the first thing I'd want to do to it would be to move back to its old, static recoil which no one has the old values for so its hard to make a suggestion without actually providing stats. From there it would likely need a recoil reduction but still keeping the old values in mind, simply toning them down a little followed by buffs to its bloom as example.

17 minutes ago, BlatMan said:

FFA Bullshark

• fPerShotModifier 0.2 >>> 0 - You've turned this weapon into a laser. Reduce it to 0.15 or so, but not 0. Maybe this was a typo.

Not a typo, very much intentional, its an aggressive approach and that's why, if this would ever be an approach LO would want to take it would be tested in which case it'll be very obvious if its too strong or not.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Frosi

[CIoud 26]

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Edited September 6, 2023 by who