Slickmund

@23kPercs in terms of quickly stunning, make for a weird combi if you ask me, not overpowered. Just weird in terms of gameplay. Damage and hard damage wise I find them lacking so never really use them, appart from farming the "Grenade kills" mission in FC sometimes. Making a scope modification built in on snipers is a thing I can support, I dislike how snipers play because of the lack of it really. There would still be a strong gun meta though, but it will simply shift from: Whats best in terms of TTK/Range and adaptability to scenarios, to, whatever gun is easiest to headshot with. There is no OP gun in APB, atleast not right now. Even the bugged Yukon isnt op besides acting like a baseball bat up close.

Just ignore the negativity of the overly-competitive players really, often enough it is due to their lack in leading-skills or refusal to try and play as a team by following up on someone that silvers can't perform in some match-ups.

Adding headshots to this game will not do it any good. It doesn't have a proper hitbox system in place to support it either. Now, it is a tactical shooter, which most of us enjoy because it is so much different from your every day shooter, besides all the customization options of course, those are icing to the cake. What this game needs, is a proper tutorial/learning phase for new players, on a daily basis I run into players that have invested 100h+ into the game and still have very restricted knowledge about the game, and knowledge truely is power in this game, other than reaction time, finesse and tactical insight/quick thinking. In APB when someone kills you, theres often so much more to it than simply "Oh he shot better than I did", or "Oh, he got a headshot on me then". I play a lot of shooters and would quit APB the second they change the combat fundamentally, like adding headshots.

After playing around with the NL-9 I've really come to appreciate the weapon. Like Fennel mentions, past a certain range 40-50 I guess, it feels like it can miss, still rarely, its pretty darn accurate I love that. That is without mods though. I rarely stun at that range anyways since arresting someone becomes troublesome over that distance, but it is usefull to stun the backup of your prime target really. I love the NL-9s ability to chain-stun multiple opponents quite well, where as the CCG can hardly do that.

I play a good NTEC, it's probably my main though Im trying to get more serious about other weapons as well. However if I am up against a NTEC user that manages to beat me consistently if I use my NTEC, or if I simply dont feel like playing NTEC, I use any of the following depending on the situation: HVR, DMR, OBIR, Obeya 762, SR15, ATAC, JG, Colby 1922. All of which, can hold up a candle to the NTEC if not beat it quite consistently if played in their predefinded ways. There's plenty to pick from to counter a NTEC, however NTEC is the weapon a player which is much much better than you, can consistently crap on you no matter what range. That is what bothers most people I think. Someone who can consistently 5shot within its effective range, is hard to beat yes. It just means you gotta switch up your playstyle if you want to beat it, simple as that really. NTEC is in a really good place right now actually in terms of balancing.

Dead center, is where usually the least ammount of pellets land though. Atleast with the low gauge shots, with the 20 gauge CSG it is quite the opposite. For an instance, in pubg, CSGO alike, which of course are different games but pellet spread is still pellet spread which I am trying to compare here. If you want to increase your chance to get a good headshot with a lot of pellets hitting there, at longer ranges, you start aiming below the head, or right beside it. Imagine the spread a bit like a cone, the further the range you're shooting over, the futher it expands. Typically with low gauge shotguns like the JG or NL9 alike, most pellets are at the edges of the cone rather than the middle. This is why I like the JG as I have proclaimed in another thread. A JG can get you some really lucky shots, whilst firing at cover. I havent played a lot with the NL9 yet as I main Criminal, just about 20hours at most I guess. I find it very similar to the JG in terms of spread mechanics, but of course, a lot less damaging than the JG, however this is just a LTL/Lethal difference I reckon. Either way, I'd advise you when playing the NL9 or JG in the future, to not always try to aim deadcenter of someone when firing over longer ranges (That said most shotguns are simply useles beyond a range of 8m really, CSG manages to perfom decently still at that range, but up it to 15 and it damage output is put to shame by any other gun as well.).

That they are JG even more so than CSG. But inconsistency is something you can learn to play with as well, I enjoy that part about it.

@23kLike I mentioned, I do also play against proper silver and golds in the silver district. When my clanmates are on we compete with sometimes some of the best players. Players you come to know and respect because they often play really well against you in missions. Sometimes I cone across pkayers who are on top of the leaderboards of FC as well. Im not trying to say; OH but im really good you know! However your point is irrelevant and you wouldve known that if you bothered to read well what I said. Also, people are right to ridicule your demeaning behaviour. I main NTEC, HVR and Alig/OPGL as support in big teams or really hard to approach areas or AV heavy missions. Like most players. Shotguns are good, youd know this as well if youd play against good players. Actually one of the very best players Ive ran into on Citadel mains shotgun consistently and hes madly good and tactical. Either, git out you slag, or atleast those argument you throw out here as if youre on a bathroom break.

"Never miss a shot" are you a comedian? Cus you did make me laugh there. I play Silver district mostly nowadays, on Citadel, and people there miss plenty of shots, even the best players though more rarely in their case. Shotgun dictate a certain playstyle and if you do that well, it performs well in the right situations. Why? Because not even the best players manage to consistently 5-6 shot you if youre quickly peeking around a corner and give a face full of buckshot. If you shoot well, 1 shot is enough for a quick pistol whipping, 2 shot can do them in, if not you might even have time for a third shot or a nade finnish if you play well. Shotguns aren't versatile like many other guns, but situationally a force to be reckoned with, like most specialized guns. I dont bother to play on Silver districts in Jericho, half the time I get to play against folks that hackusate me, the other half I fight proper folks in which I can notice 120ms delay doesn't help me much and that puts salt on my slugs really.

Shotgunning at 10m range? Uhhhh.... I always run around with my pistol and pull out my shotty when I get close to a corner or know my opponent is close. If im caught with my pistol out within 7m, I try to tag my opponent whilst moving towards cover to get my JG out for the finnishing blow. I guess I use my shotgun more as a primary secondary rather than a full on primary because of its lack of range. I don't see why you would want to be able to compete with rifles and smgs at a 10m range with a shotgun, it doesn't make sense. Atleast in APB's case where were all stuck with plain buckshot.

Any weapon, since I play any weapon.

From what i understood ( now correct me if im wrong he ) is that because of how the servers work, they want to make the shotty more efficient of actually having a real hit instead of being a ghosthost or what have you. cheers It will be more consistent on dealing a certain ammount of damage due to the first pellet hitting will deal the highest proportion, that is all. The damage stack of multiple pellets will be reduced however, which will either make 3 shotting consistent, 2 shotting consistent (which would be too easy for a shotgun if you ask me), or make you consistently spazzing around corners to hit those first 4 pellets to kill someone, not even bothering with the rest of the pellets.

Seen as they couldnt achieve that in GTA 5 either (and rockstar can program quite well) I highly doubt it. @BXNNXD If they are completely in line with your character, yes. But that would never become a thing, it is rare in really high requirement games as well. A rough stickfigure hitbox would already be a great upgrade from this tube that surrounds us all. Again though, I highly doubt they will ever be able to implement this in APB

I'm not a big fan of that change, or atleast I think I wont be, I'd rather test it and see it reverted if it doesn't work out than not seeing it happen at all so I'm not completely against it. But I do suspect it will change shotgun play from "AH HA! That was a solid hit, you are mine sir!", to, "Alright tagged him, just 2 more tags and hes dead".

Shredder is an automatic shotgun, as I stated before, and again, no offense, I dont want to consider that relevant in this comparison because it is an automatic shotgun which plays differently in terms of playstyle. Personally I find em poor weapons to begin with, as I rarely ever lose to one, especially the ogre which many consider the easiest and therefore best shotgun, though in reality its ease of use is costing it in terms of playstyle, it is easily countered. Strife I didn't know existed as you see it rarely and can only stumble upon it if you check the pack contents, which I dont because I rarely find them interesting. I would add it to the poll and discussion, but it is used so rarely I doubt itll be of much use here. @ObviousLesbian What issue with shotguns are you refering to? Inconsistency in terms of damage output? (Which to be fair, should come with the gun beyond certain ranges as it does in many games, reality alike, unless you use special non-buckshot or specialized-buckshot shells.). Shotguns not being able to deal their damage properly because of hitboxes? Or shotguns being able to deal damage too easily because of how the hitboxes work? I'm not trying to mock you, I simply find your thoughts on it posted so far rather vague. As an ex-programmer myself I know quite a bit about how hitboxes are typically functioning, and yes, in APB you are basically a walking tube, with a nice personal representation inside of it which is you. Which is quite outdated in terms of hitboxes in shooters, but does save a ton of calculations on hit registration, which was probably RTW's only reasonable choice left seen the scale of a game they were creating in a time where computers werent nearly as hefty, and server-sided calculations had to be made sparse due to network stressing. I would love to see a proper hitbox system in APB as well, but often enough you might as well start from scratch if you want to fundamentally change hitboxes in your game, especially if networking already is an issue with its current economic state. I assume proper hitboxes will never be a thing in APB, it asks too much for a game with this many stress factors involved already. But I could be wrong obviously, I didn't program it so I can only make assumptions really. Either way, this is why, if that was your point, it sadly is not relevant to APB and its future. How shotguns work currently, doesnt differ much from other recoil patterns anyways. Much like you can get that lucky 4 pellet hit on that one hair on someones head whilst he is in cover, you can get that lucky doubletap during a poorly controlled burst, making for insanely fast kills sometimes. I actually enjoy that unpredictable side of APB, makes it feel like you play against people behind computers rather than bots that shoot at you in a scripted way and trashtalk you as theyre actually on twitter or whatnot.

I gave the CSG another spin last night and feel like I now understand the general preference towards the CSG. It simply is way more consistent in damage output at any but in your face range, there the JG performs a little better imho. I still ended up switching back to the JG in the end, because I do quite love its RNG factor. You can pull some really funky shit off with that gun in some situations. Last night I managed to get 2 double kills (with 1 shot) after softening them up with an amazing (also lucky) concussion grenade. I have not been able to do this with the CSG, tagging two people at once, where as with the JG I do it pretty consistently. I know I can't depend on it, but with a bit of luck, it can really help overcome those 2v1 or even greater outnumbered situations. When I play shotgun Im constantly in a rush, and it's thrilling, I find the JG more fun to play with because of this I guess.

Yet all the in game available weapons rule their classes, along with their armas reskins (without considering some special JMB weapons like medusa, which defenitely is on par if it doesnt outperform the SHAW in many scenarios). Not to be offensive mate, but whats your point really? That theres only two assault rifles to pick from besides armas? Theres only 2 shotguns to pick from as well, 2 smgs, 2 snipers, 2 explosive weapons and oddly 4 semi-rifles. It was intended that way, and it works pretty well. Plenty of ARMAS unique weapons are available through Joker tickets as well, still, I wouldnt consider it because the standard weapons are still a lot better in most situations. The NTEC outperforms the STAR in most situations most say, the NHVR outperforms the DMR in most situations most say, the NFAS outperfoms the JG in most situations some say, the OBIR outperforms the Obeya some say, the OSCAR outperforms the SR-15 some say. I say bogus to all of that. I see all of these weapons, used well, used poorly, day in day out on high level and on low level. OSMAW is op? Mortar that shit with the OPGL, gl OSMAW, seeya on the next stiff walk. The more I play, the more I start using all the guns, non-armas, and start to see how well balanced they are. I see a lot of players agreeing on this, and less whining about it in game. Yet I see the opposite on the forums, cus hey guess what, the one that appreciates it rarely takes it to the forums, whilst the annoyed brat that calls "unfair" goes to the forum to convince the rest of us and the staff along with it preferably. Sorry if I seem agitated throughout my posts, its the narrow perspective most seem to deliver critique from that annoys me at this point, and your argument seems really irrelevant to me at this point. Weapon pool is as intended on most ends. You see high weapon diversity because of this, yet loudmouths still focus and nitpick on silly stuff to make a statement. Nearly all armas weapons are extremely niche and limit your playstyle, which keeps the game from become P2W. How is that a bad thing? Add Raptor to the in game accesible weapons? Youre gonna see it just as rarely as you do now, just like the ATAC, which you can actually get through the joker stores. Why? Because the standard weapons can still beat it in most situations.

If you want to consider the NTEC too versatile, how about we pull the Burst Rifle into the discussion. The gun that if used well, brings about the demise of most decent NTEC user. Exposure whilst firing a burst rifle is minimal since it recovers after its burst allowing you to take cover, a good burst rifle player will take 3-4 hits at most whilst fighting a NTEC. You have to be caught off-guard with a burst rifle or caught with your ding dong out in CQC if you want to lose to a NTEC with it. Perfect counterpick to a NTEC, even gives mediocre snipers some lead to chew on. I have yet to see a gun in APB that is truely OP and is desperate for tweaking besides the bugged Yukon (which still isnt even that great). There are plenty of inefficient guns that do need tweaking. @WELCOMETOFLAVORTOWN What the STAR and SR-15 have in common, is being able to recover better after missing a shot, allowing a bigger margin for error within its effective range, and more maneuverability whilst firing meaning less exposure whilst dealing damage if played properly. What the CR-762 and the OBIR have in common is that they beat the NTEC at range because of their higher effective range. People can make the NTEC work within other niches by overcoming hardships in terms of game mechanics. If you want to play NTEC you practically need HS3 and IR3 on it, otherwise it can not perform at range like most experience, which is why you pretty much always see these mods on NTEC's. HS3 in close range is absolutely terrible though, your FOV is lowered drastically which makes tracking much harder. Its like being able to use the gun only with a big ol 4x scope on it, in close range (unless were talking barrel to the chest kind of range, believe me all weapons get weird at that range). In close range, you can either try to overcome this scoped advantage through skill, or you can avoid its FOV restrictions by becoming a sitting duck, crouching and hip firing, still with less accuracy of course and high recoil. I see plenty of players overcoming this playstyle. And like I mentioned before, I have yet to see the NTEC being as popular as most claim. Those that do use it, often perform really well and thats where I see no issue. Much like a sniper even with QS, takes a lot of skill to use in close range, why should that not be rewarding? Ease of use should not be more rewarding than mastery if you ask me.

One has to consider how meta works before wanting to change it. Meta will always be a thing, in any game, no matter how much you balance it. The main question is: Is the one with the highest meta truely OP? As an example, lets take the CSGO weapon meta for comparison (even though it is a fps, and on top of that has a completely different damage system, but meta wise we can still compare the two on an abstract level). On CSGO the meta is tilted if not leaning entirely on the AK-47, which is the only assault rifle besides the SG553 which can kill with 1 shot, a headshot. On top of that if the headshot is missed, its recoil pattern works great for short bursts that are quite equally fatal if aimed properly. The AK-47 would rule supreme, and at a competitive level (ESL) dominates the picking because players there are quite confident on being able to headshot. But only one side has direct access to this gun, the terrorist side. Yet the Counterterrorist side has to make due with a 2shot to kill if headshotted, the M4 in two variants. Its way more controlable, and easier to use in terms of recoil management and therefore more forgiving. Is the AK-47 too strong? No its not, people still pick the M4 over the AK and outperform it, why? Because the AK is unforgiving, and a 1 trick pony. 1 Tap to headshot, or a tilted down spray which is damn inaccurate. The M4 doesnt suffer from that, and can easily 2 tap an ak user if the ak user misses the initial headshot. Meta is nothing more than a measurement of what most players, can use well according to their average skill. I see a NTEC, at most on average, on 2/5 players I see even though its one of the few F2P guns, most days, its not even 1/5. Because its hard to use and unforgiving. So can we even consider this gun to be on top of the meta? I dont think so. A weapon you can consider OP once it beats pretty much every weapon in its niche. In the NTEC's case, it simply isn't. If you have beaten SMGs, shotguns whatever gun that should be advantageous in it's niche, it either means you have gotten the drop on the player and caught him off guard, or he didn't play accordingly to the weapons playstyle, or but I'd rather not consider this factor, the player was simply performing poorly (Poor perfomance of a player you can't take into account when talking balance really). TTK on any SMG is on par with the NTEC, ease of use almost always exceeds the NTEC's which refers to its margin for making mistakes and recovering from it and most importantly situational accuracy which has the biggest effect on TTK. On the NTEC this is very low, bad accuracy whilst moving and firing, low rof that allow for very few misses before your enemy is swimming in spare time to kill you and arrange your funeral. If you lose to an NTEC with a shotgun whilst getting the drop on him or engaging him quite fairly, you didnt use your shotgun well end of story. Same goes for any niche weapon. Ive met plenty of players which can consistently beat my NTEC in CQC with SMG's, and shotguns alike. I have yet to lose against a NTEC whilst using an ATAC or shotgun properly and well. People often mention the NTECs versatility and deem it OP by it, consider its weaknesses: Low mobility whilst firing, very unforgiving when shots are missed or recoil managed inproperly and most of all, very predictable. Its a one trick pony, if you can't beat that, youre going to have a lot of issues against a lot of weapons used by good players.

JG damage per pellet does it for me really, NFAS cant touch that. Ive been beating a lot of CSG users today, Ive come to terms with not entirely being able to trust the weapons damage output seen as RNG can have a huge effect on it, I rely on my Colby for the real killing. But Ive been getting a lot of toxic whispers today about my tagging and jumpshot follow ups, which I cant do as well with the CSG. For reference I use IR3 and 3PS on it. See no point in using mag pull on it. It strips bullets you can resupply faster again, but in the heat I rather have a bigger mag to depend on than being able to reload quickly.

Oh, shit that explains a lot about why putting 5 shells into someones face sometimes doesn't kill the person. You shoot pellets with a shotgun though, I would love to see em add slugs but I guess thats off-limits in terms of balancing right now. But to be a real nerdo, you dont fire a shell, shells are what tanks and artillery fires. To specify more thoroughly, a shell, like the name suggests in other areas as well, is a hardened container. Strictly, not even all the rounds a tank can fire are shells. HE's are shells for an instance, whilst APCR, which is basically a dart isn't. If you are however blowing shells into someones face, Id suggest holding your shotgun the other way around, you wanna shoot em with the end where the pellets come out.

Ah, I wrongly mixed up what the Strife was, thought that was the stunshotgun, no I dont have that one, looks amazing though. Might get that, expensive asf though.

Ive got one of those on my trollforcers, love it, use the TG-8 along with that. I main criminal, on Citadel though, alt on Jericho which I play LTL only on. @MySodiumFair point, up close its not that big of a deal, but especially on the longer ranges, the RNG can get you as lucky as unlucky most of the time it being the latter. Thats why you carry a side-arm though.

True ogre, though I cant consider it a good weapon to begin with, I simply find over the top in terms of auto-spamming a shotgun. Guns like that often have mechanical issues and risk of breakage whilst using which is not a factor in a game like this at all. NFAS, well Im not a fan of auto-shotties, but I can see why some people would prefer it and I dont mind it. They dont outperform pump actions, theyre simply easier to use.

I play on Citadel indeed, unless I feel like trollforcing with LTL or if Citadel is down.