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Kewlin

Kewlin's Big Shotgun Thread

Do you think shotguns need to be fixed?  

66 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you think shotguns need to be fixed?

    • Yes, and Kewlin’s ideas seem like a good start.
      28
    • Yes, but I just want the CSG-20, JG-840, NFAS-12, and Ogre reverted.
      4
    • Yes, but I want all shotguns reverted.
      14
    • Yes, but not in any of the ways mentioned above.
      4
    • No, shotguns are fine as they are.
      16


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*EDIT July 23rd 2019* This post was made before the NFAS was extremely meta, and as such my statements on the NFAS are questionable, and probably wrong. Please take them with a grain of salt.

Warning: If you have not noticed yet, this post is fucking long. If you have an issue with long posts, I suggest you just take the poll and leave it there: there is no TL;DR, and the information in this thread cannot necessarily be easily explained in fewer words; there are however pretty (read: fugly) graphs.

 

Forward:

I want to “start” by saying that I appreciate that LO wants to try and balance APB, and to be fair I think a lot of LO’s buffs to different guns were good, and their IR3 concept could have been good with some tweaking. I think overall LO was just a little too optimistic, and certainly not quite careful enough. As I’m sure everyone’s aware, APB is a complex game with a lot of guns and mods, and a lot of factors, and as such when it comes to weapon balance everyone has major disagreements. I could bring up many, many examples of disagreements among knowledgeable vets, but suffice to say I’ve gotten into and witnessed many long arguments with a lot of smart people who know APB pretty damned well, and what I’ve come to realize is that nobody can entirely understand APB’s balance because there’s so many perspectives you can come from.

 

That being said, what’s not really up to debate is that about half of the shotguns in APB are laying in shambles right now after the last balance changes. I get that something had to be done because changes had gone live that made many shotguns overpowered, but the current versions of the JG-840, CSG-20, NFAS-12, and Ogre in particular feel like they are the result of bad knee-jerk reactions, and that needs to be fixed.

 

This post is my proposition on how to fix the issues with shotguns created in the last few balance patches. I’m sure there are many perspectives on how shotguns could be fixed, but these changes are how I see it. Please though, if anyone from Little Orbit is reading this, if you take nothing away from this thread beside one sentence, let it be this:

 

If you are not willing to go through a process to fix shotguns of a similar or greater scale than I describe in this thread in the near future, then please, please revert the CSG-20, JG-840, NFAS-12, and NFAS-12 ‘True Ogre’ to how they were before you changed them.

 

I have had many people disagree with me on many things in APB, but I don’t believe I’ve seen virtually anyone disagree that those 4 shotguns should be reverted if nothing else is going to be done to them in the near future.

 

Notes on Terminology and Functionality:

When I use the term "assist" in this post I will be referring to teamwork kills in general, or in other words both assists in the traditional and as finishing kills.

 

AV in APB refers to guns that have good hard damage, I.E. they’re effective against vehicles, or sometimes is used to refer to how good a gun is at doing hard damage.

 

I will be using the term STK to refer to more than just min-STK, E.G. I may talk about achieving 3-STK with the CSG-20 at extended ranges or when missing some pellets, though the CSG-20’s min-STK is 2.

 

For those who don’t know, the way the new shotguns damage curves work is every shotgun has a variable that I’ll refer to as its per ray damage scale, which is a value of 1 or lower that modifies pellet damage depending on how many pellets land in a shot. Basically, each pellet’s damage is multiplied by the per ray damage scale raised to a power equal to the number of pellets landed before that pellet. E.G., if we say the gun’s 1st pellet damage is D, and its per ray damage scale is S, then the 1st shot will deal D*S⁰, (since any number raised to the 0th power is 1 that’s just D,) the 2nd shot will deal D*S¹, the 3rd will deal D*S², etc.. Hopefully this is clear, but I don’t blame anyone if they don’t totally understand it. All anyone reading really needs to know is that LO raised the initial damage of shotguns, but also made each subsequent pellet that lands deal less damage than the previous.

 

I will at many points be talking about the number of pellets required to land to reach a certain STK in this thread; what I am referring to when I talk about this is the number of pellets that need to land in each shot against another player at full health in order to kill that player in that number of shots, assuming each shot lands the same number of pellets. E.G. in order to achieve a 2-STK the pre-LO CSG required 17 pellets in each shot to land from 0m to 21m, 18 pellets at 22m, 19 at 23m, and so on, or to 3-shot 11 pellets from 0m to 20m, 12 at 21m, etc.. When I refer to this fact I am aware that shotguns have spread, lots of it in most cases, and likely will not be capable of landing the number of pellets required to reach a certain STK at extended ranges, but I am simply referring to the technical numbers. That said, I urge you to keep the realistic limitations of shotgun spread in mind when looking at these numbers.

 

JG-840:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

CSG-20:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

NFAS-12 & Variants:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Shredder:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

SG-21 (“Strife”):

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Showstopper & Variant:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Questions, comments, flames?

 

 

 

P.S. LO, please revert the NCR-762 to its state before the changes made around June of 2015, with the exception of the range buff. Oh, and revert the M-1922’s recoil to how it was before the October 2015 patch. These were both bad “buffs” that ruined the guns.

 

P.P.S. My brother wanted me to include this.

 

P.S.Sh. Thanks for annoying encouraging me to finish this thread Ketog.

Edited by Kewlin
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I didn’t read the text, but I’m for your idea. Simply because you put more effort into this one post, than I have put into all my forum post put together. Both forums.

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I completely agree with mosty of your suggestions except two :

 

The DOW and the OGRE one

 

DOW

 

Let's start with DOW , right now i think DOW is at a really good spot , and like you said buffing it the slightest would make it overpowered , while it's true that the guns feels similar to an NFAS but in an semi auto format , the way the gun behaves is completely different than the NFAS's due to it's nature ,  while DOW having 60x12 damage (compared to 80x12 for NFAS) might make it look like it needs some love , DOW has a much higher Per Ray Damage Scale and a lower spread , making it much more consistent that the NFAS thus more forgiving , increeasing the damage on DOW would simply make the gun way too much forgiving at higher ranges .

 

As for the choke change , i honestly have no idea how it would be , but 50% seems like a bit much , epscially with 20-30 range like you suggested , that would basically transform the dow into a shredder V2 and make the gun way too versatile .

 

OGRE

 

Now for the ogre , i completely agree with you suggestion of giving it equal damage to the normal NFAS 12  just like it used to be , while the Per Ray Damage Scale was supposed to help for the shotgun consistency , it didn't really affect ogre ,as it got it's damage heavely lowered while it used to be the same as the NFAS 12  , right now NFAS 12 does 80*12 Damage with a Per Ray Damage Scale of 81 , wich puts im in an okayish having high damage that scales down fast by pellet , but on the other side , OGre now only deals 50*12 with a Per Ray Damage Scale of 94 , that sounds okay and great until you realise that ogre has only 10 meters range , low base damage (lowest of all the shotguns in APB) , very high spread and that the only thing supposed to make it strong is the high damage scale . while ogre is supoposed to feel inconsistent at longer ranges , the lack of overdamage that it has now make it a very weak option for close quarters combat abd ogre completely lost it's role of "mower" in CQC .

 

As for your firerate change im completely against it , ogre is supposed to overwhelm you enemy with a rain of bullets lowering it's rate of fire would basically make it a worse NFAS-12 even if it's only by a little .

 

TLDR for ogre ; Put it's damage equal to NFAS 12 like it used to be before , it will give the close range consistency that it needs right now , put the range back to where it used to be before the Per Ray Damage Scale mechanic was added , and don't touch it's firerate ,  all of this will make ogre the gun it used to be .

 

PS: Luna i know you hate spaces before commas              , deal with it .

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  On 11/24/2018 at 9:09 PM, Ketog said:

I completely agree with mosty of your suggestions except two :

 

The DOW and the OGRE one

 

DOW

 

Let's start with DOW , right now i think DOW is at a really good spot , and like you said buffing it the slightest would make it overpowered , while it's true that the guns feels similar to an NFAS but in an semi auto format , the way the gun behaves is completely different than the NFAS's due to it's nature ,  while DOW having 60x12 damage (compared to 80x12 for NFAS) might make it look like it needs some love , DOW has a much higher Per Ray Damage Scale and a lower spread , making it much more consistent that the NFAS thus more forgiving , increeasing the damage on DOW would simply make the gun way too much forgiving at higher ranges .

 

As for the choke change , i honestly have no idea how it would be , but 50% seems like a bit much , epscially with 20-30 range like you suggested , that would basically transform the dow into a shredder V2 and make the gun way too versatile .

 

I really can't agree that the DOW behaves completely differently than the NFAS-12, realistically it's virtually the same gun save a few changes, and I have historically used them virtually the same just fine. (And no, I didn't just look at the 1st pellet damage of both guns and think oh shit, the DOW needs a buff! That would be ridiculous.

 

First, The DOW has a 16% tighter spread than the NFAS-12, which I wouldn't really call much tighter. Sure, it's tighter and certainly helps, but let's not forget that the gun not only has a slightly lower RoF, it's semi-auto which makes it more difficult to reach this RoF.

 

Second, high 1st pellet damage and low per ray damage scale is actually better for consistency, especially at longer ranges. Low 1st pellet and high per ray damage scale is only good for overdamage, whereas high 1st pellet and low per ray damage scale gives more damage to shots that land fewer pellets than are necessary to land a kill.

 

Between these two fact, I believe the buffed NFAS-12 could potentially delete the DOW, even at ranges.

 

 

Lastly, I didn't say that a huge damage buff to the DOW should permanently go to live, I said it should be tried, presumably in a test district. Same goes for the choke, I don't know if 50% would be good, but seeming as 35% feels like it does nothing I'd start by trying out 50%. And let's not forget that it takes 1.2s to shoot 3 shots at the reduced RoF; at that point you could be using the LCR and get the same TTK, not to mention the DOW still has less range than the Shredder and still would have more spread even with 50% reduced spread.

 

 

  On 11/24/2018 at 9:09 PM, Ketog said:

OGRE

. . . As for your firerate change im completely against it , ogre is supposed to overwhelm you enemy with a rain of bullets lowering it's rate of fire would basically make it a worse NFAS-12 even if it's only by a little .

 

TLDR for ogre ; Put it's damage equal to NFAS 12 like it used to be before , it will give the close range consistency that it needs right now , put the range back to where it used to be before the Per Ray Damage Scale mechanic was added , and don't touch it's firerate ,  all of this will make ogre the gun it used to be .

 

Sure, the Ogre's supposed to overwhelm your enemy in CQC, and the ACT-44 is supposed to land shots, but sometimes things just can't be how they're supposed to be, and realistically it would seem the game can't handle the Ogre's RoF. That said, I don't think the Ogre's RoF should be nerfed unless it specifically becomes OP with the changes I suggested, as I'd rather have the gun be reliable and not break the game than have a high RoF, break the game, and not get consistent TTKs.

 

So basically, your claim that my suggestions would make the gun a worse NFAS-12 are ridiculous, because I'm only suggesting its RoF be reduced if it happens to become overpowered, and I never even said I want it reduced to NFAS-12 fire rate.

 

 

Anyhoo, thanks for the feedback, but I can't agree, and honestly it sounds like you didn't quite understand that what you're taking issue with was suggested with alternatives (or as alternatives) in case of my initial thoughts being wrong.

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  On 11/24/2018 at 10:03 PM, Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 said:

Yes

 

Cool.  ❤️

  On 11/24/2018 at 8:32 PM, AsgerLund said:

I didn’t read the text, but I’m for your idea. Simply because you put more effort into this one post, than I have put into all my forum post put together. Both forums.

 

IDK man, man-bewbs take a lot of effort. Thanks though.

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sweet christmas, this is a long one

 

ill go over it later

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I was right in the first place i made several posts about how these shotguns changes were terrible and nobody listened to me just a few people before these updates but anyways they need to revert the ogre and revert the improved riflings to what they used to be 

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  On 11/25/2018 at 1:09 AM, virginiavirgin said:

revert the improved riflings to what they used to be 

improved rifling has already been returned to its previous stats

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  On 11/25/2018 at 1:09 AM, virginiavirgin said:

I was right in the first place i made several posts about how these shotguns changes were terrible and nobody listened to me just a few people before these updates but anyways they need to revert the ogre and revert the improved riflings to what they used to be 

 

I'm pretty sure there were several people, like, around half the community, that disagreed with the shotgun changes all along.

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I disageee with your suggesting fire rate buff to JG and CSG. Recent nerf of its fire rate forces shotgunners to use shotguns tactically and forces using cover instead of fully rushing. Ttk was raised so shotguns are not able to out-TTK most of weapons in a straight fight.

I am all in for raising its range, and reliability tho. 15m for JG, 20 for CSG. 

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  On 11/25/2018 at 5:13 AM, AxeTurboAgresor said:

I disageee with your suggesting fire rate buff to JG and CSG. Recent nerf of its fire rate forces shotgunners to use shotguns tactically and forces using cover instead of fully rushing. Ttk was raised so shotguns are not able to out-TTK most of weapons in a straight fight.

I am all in for raising its range, and reliability tho. 15m for JG, 20 for CSG. 

 

I guess, but. . . relying entirely on your environment 100% of the time is kinda' shitty, and makes them almost entirely reliant on having a van you can hide behind on huge portions of the map (which only works in 1v1s.)

 

When the assault rifles out-TTK in CQC over shotguns if you don't have control of the environment, it kinda' raises the question of why would you use a shotgun? And it's not just about being good or not, because just like you can put in effort to try and take cover your enemy can put in effort to deny you cover, so a gun requiring cover in CQC, where your enemy has the most control over your position, just sucks. Not to mention that still with pump shotguns, the CSG especially, you need to land every shot well or you're fucked, unlike SMGs.

 

 

Sure, I'll continue to use shotguns no matter what, just like I use lots of bad guns, but I'd rather shotguns be like, legitimate? And seeming as you rarely saw shotguns back when they were 0.68s, I feel like you'd need to do a full rework of shotguns, and perhaps all weapons within close range, to make shotguns require you to play cover and be legitimate choices.

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@Kewlin Dude I used to play with my TAC20 all the time, and still playing (stopped since IR3 nerf and started again right after they reversed it back) so dont tell me that it seems like I saw the shotguns on the pictures only.  I was the one who suggested this fire rate nerf for shotguns. Its not like TTK of 0.72s totally ruins its ability to 1v1, but it forces u to use shotguns more tactically.

Shotguns are still great, but its range sucks, and it needs to be a little more reliable again. They dont need no TTK buff. It seems like u want to overbuff it.

 

Edited by AxeTurboAgresor

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  On 11/25/2018 at 6:42 AM, AxeTurboAgresor said:

@Kewlin Dude I used to play with my TAC20 all the time, and still playing (stopped since IR3 nerf and started again right after they reversed it back) so dont tell me that it seems like I saw the shotguns on the pictures only.  I was the one who suggested this fire rate nerf for shotguns. Its not like TTK of 0.72s totally ruins its ability to 1v1, but it forces u to use shotguns more tactically.

Shotguns are still great, but its range sucks, and it needs to be a little more reliable again. They dont need no TTK buff.

 

Look, I'm sure you're really great with the TAS20, but it sucks TBH. Sure, I can get kills with it too, I can even go positive with it sometimes, but I could get more kills with a good gun like the OCA or Manic.

 

You don't even know the CSG's TTK, and you didn't even double check it, (It's 0.77s,) like. . . IDK man. Can you give me a reason the gun's should have gotten a RoF nerf actually? You're not giving any real reason, you're just basically saying you have a fetish for punishment. The guns were fine before the TTK nerf, so unless you have a reason they should have the nerf, I'm going to disagree.

 

IMO there needs to be a very substantial reason to actually change the playstyle of a gun that's already existing in a game, and a 0.09s increase in the CSG's TTK was pretty fucking significant.

Edited by Kewlin
Wording and Grammar

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@Kewlin Cus they were shooting too fast for what it is. Becouse when u nail this 2 hits good, it kills too fast. For the third time: to force shotgunners use its weapon more tactically. Whats so hard to understand about it? For the same reason why shredder is shooting slower again. Also, its bugging me out that u consider Strife to be on a good spot since its terrible high TTK is the only reason I fcking hate to use this gun, yet u love it. Why? 

If u can do better with OCA, well fine go take yo OCA. But u cant compare OCA to JG/CSG cuz they fulfill the different purpose. And yes, I fully agree that JG/CSG needs some kind of buff, but NOT in its rate of fire.

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  On 11/25/2018 at 7:15 AM, AxeTurboAgresor said:

@Kewlin Cus they were shooting too fast for what it is. Becouse when u nail this 2 hits good, it kills too fast. For the third time: to force shotgunners use its weapon more tactically. Whats so hard to understand about it? For the same reason why shredder is shooting slower again. Also, its bugging me out that u consider Strife to be on a good spot since its terrible high TTK is the only reason I fcking hate to use this gun, yet u love it. Why? 

If u can do better with OCA, well fine go take yo OCA. But u cant compare OCA to JG/CSG cuz they fulfill the different purpose. And yes, I fully agree that JG/CSG needs some kind of buff, but NOT in its rate of fire.

 

They weren't too good though, lol, and even if they can land 2-shots reliably that still wouldn't make them OP. The Shredder is a bad example for exactly this reason: the reason the Shredder got its RoF buff reverted is because they buffed the gun into a god-like tier of its own, so of course they reverted some of the buffs, but the CSG and JG were not OP at 0.68s TTK. Give me actual evidence or a real reason that the CSG and JG shot too fast and I might be able to take you seriously, but you keep just saying that they shoot too fast and you want them to feel tactical. 0.68s TTK isn't too fast, the DOW can hit 0.6s easy and it's not OP. "Feeling tactical" is entirely relative to each individual and as such means virtually nothing.

 

What you're saying makes the Strife bad is specifically the whole purpose of the Strife, if you don't want a high TTK shotgun then use a different shotgun: not every gun in APB is made for every person, that's why there's more than one gun in APB. The point of the Strife is hitting hard with a low RoF, it's essentially the N-HVR 762 of close range, just like it's supposed to be. So I'm saying the Strife is in a good spot because it does exactly what it's intended to do, and it does it perfectly. Don't think of the Strife like other shotguns and you might enjoy it, because in a lot of ways it's more of a support weapon than anything else.

 

And honestly? Shotguns and SMGs really fill the same role, 'cause for most practical purposes range is most of what matters, so yeah, I can compare the OCA and CSG just like I can compare the LCR and CR762, because they're relatively interchangeable in a team composition. Shotguns aren't special snowflakes: as far as the META is concerned they're just guns that fill a certain set of ranges, and that's why nobody uses them when SMGs fill those ranges better.

 

And to top it all off, the fact that you're going off on this is hilarious because I specifically said in my post that I'd only reduce their RoF if they still were underpowered, I.E., I didn't even outright say they should get a RoF buff, I just think it should be considered if they still feel underpowered after changes to their range (and damage in the case of the CSG.)

Edited by Kewlin

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  On 11/25/2018 at 7:33 AM, Kewlin said:

What you're saying makes the Strife bad is specifically the whole purpose of the Strife, if you don't want a high TTK shotgun then use a different shotgun

...

  On 11/25/2018 at 7:33 AM, Kewlin said:

Shotguns and SMGs really fill the same role

Dude u just literally contradicted ur own arguments in one post. If u dont like TTK of shotguns just go and grab OCA which has 0.64s and even lower with CJ if I remember correctly. 

Shotguns plays differently than SMGs, and thats the reason u might put your hands on shottie instead of SMGs if the playstyle fits you more.

  • If straight gameplay suits u more, ofc u will take an SMG.
  • Shotguns are not for strahgit gameplay.

This is what I wanted to highlight especially for u ^

Shotguns are better in other aspects of cqc.

 

Also u r the one who got triggered to me not agreeing with ur fire rate buff. I play shotguns a lot, and I say that JG/CSG does not need no rate of fire buff, cuz its perfectly OK. The problem lays somewhere else, and if u rly meant what u say about rate of fire buff being the last desperate move, u wouldnt be doing such a big drama about my disagreement.

Edited by AxeTurboAgresor

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  On 11/25/2018 at 8:03 AM, AxeTurboAgresor said:

Dude u just literally contradicted ur own arguments in one post.

 

First off, I feel like you meant to quote a different part of my post about the Strife, because the two things you quoted don't contradict each other. Maybe you meant this quote?

 

  On 11/25/2018 at 7:33 AM, Kewlin said:

Don't think of the Strife like other shotguns and you might enjoy it, because in a lot of ways it's more of a support weapon than anything else.

 

Would you believe me if I said I half-contradicted myself as a joke? But really, it's also true because as I said the Strife is more of a support gun, so in the same way as you wouldn't compare an ALIG to a CR762 even though they have "the same range," comparing a Strife to a CSG doesn't really work directly because the Strife is intended more for support than anything. However, the CSG and JG are both realistically anti-personnel like SMGs are. Essentially, the JG and OCA, for example, fill very similar roles even though they play differently. To be clear, do you understand the difference between the playstyle and roles/purpose of a gun?

 

What I personally find hilarious is that you're calling me out for contradicting myself, but also complained that the Strife was bad by basically listing the fact that it's different as your reason in the same argument you're saying the CSG and JG need a higher TTK because they're supposed to be entirely different from SMGs.

 

  On 11/25/2018 at 8:03 AM, AxeTurboAgresor said:

If u dont like TTK of shotguns just go and grab OCA which has 0.64s and even lower with CJ if I remember correctly. 

Shotguns plays differently than SMGs, and thats the reason u might put your hands on shottie instead of SMGs if the playstyle fits you more.

 

So if I liked how shotguns were just a few months ago I should just not propose we maybe bring them back to the way they were? You're acting like shotguns have always been this way, when this is the only time, at least since G1 took over, that the CSG and JG have had a TTK of over 0.7s. I like shotguns, why in the world do you think I made this thread that took me forever to make if I didn't like shotguns? Why do you think it's your way or the highway? I've been playing this game as long as you or longer, and I've always liked shotguns in this game, sorry if I don't agree with you on what TTK on whether or not it'd be nice if they were brought back to the TTK they've basically always had.

 

I'm aware that shotguns play differently than shotguns, no shit, but for the most part they fill the same ranges and role. Maybe the reason I want to play a CSG instead of an OCA is because it plays differently, and I don't just choose guns based on TTK, did you ever think of that? And maybe I just want them to be competitive again, and currently both of them suck-patootie and are potentially the worst guns in the game.

 

You're basically implying over and over that the one difference between the CSG and JG, and SMGs, is their TTK, and I have no clue why because they've never played the same.

 

  On 11/25/2018 at 8:03 AM, AxeTurboAgresor said:

 

  • If straight gameplay suits u more, ofc u will take an SMG.
  • Shotguns are not for strahgit gameplay.

 

This is what I wanted to highlight especially for u ^

Shotguns are better in other aspects of cqc.

 

You never even said what the other things are that the CSG and JG are better at, lol.

 

And for your information, I prefer gay gameplay: straight gameplay is boring as fuck.

 

  On 11/25/2018 at 8:03 AM, AxeTurboAgresor said:

Also u r the one who got triggered to me not agreeing with ur fire rate buff. I play shotguns a lot, and I say that JG/CSG does not need no rate of fire buff, cuz its perfectly OK. The problem lays somewhere else, and if u rly meant what u say about rate of fire buff being the last desperate move, u wouldnt be doing such a big drama about my disagreement.

 

It's weird how I'm replying to someone who's disagreeing with me on a thread I made on a forum about APB, it's almost as if forums are made for discussing things, and I came here and posted this thread because I wanted to put forward my thoughts and discuss shotguns. And what of the fact that I'm the only one? What other people do you actually see discussing things on this thread? It shouldn't come as a big surprise that the original poster on a thread is talking in a thread. Not to mention, the 7 people who agreed with me on the pole probably, I don't know, agree with me? Furthermore, why do you think I have over 8,000 forum posts? I like to talk about APB, it has nothing to do with you or your ideas in particular.

 

And I didn't say it was a last desperate move, please, stop reading into shit. I would prefer their RoF be reduced: it doesn't take a genius to see that, but I don't want it to be done if it happens to make the guns OP. Please stop trying to read the lines, there's nothing between the lines. I say what I mean because I have no reason to say anything else, and I say precisely what I mean because I believe that if you aren't going to spend the time to properly write out your thoughts posting on a text-based platform is a waste of time for you and everyone reading what you write.

 

 

 

But can you give me a substantial reason why the CSG and JG shouldn't have their RoF reverted if it turns out to not be OP, like I suggested in the original post? It's not like if the JG gets its TTK reverted to 0.68s it'll suddently shoot a single bullet per shot at 125 damage roughly 11 times a second: it'll still be just as different from SMGs as it has been for the entire time APB has been out. You're calling me triggered, but you're the one acting like if the CSG and JG get their RoF increased they'll suddenly become OCAs.

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  On 11/25/2018 at 7:33 AM, Kewlin said:

And to top it all off, the fact that you're going off on this is hilarious because I specifically said in my post that I'd only reduce their RoF if they still were underpowered

This is the last thing I will reply to u, cuz u r acting hilarious. U keep ignoring things u said urself and trying to talk ur way around. Pushing the sh*t to the edge just to prove ur point. Guess what, u fell off that edge bruh, and now u act all awkward with yo broken legs. 

So now we are calling every shitty weapon "support" weapon. Ok.

 

JG/CSGs current TTK is ok for me, but its reliability sucks patootie. Git gut ❤️ 

Edited by AxeTurboAgresor

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  On 11/25/2018 at 7:33 AM, Kewlin said:

And honestly? Shotguns and SMGs really fill the same role, 'cause for most practical purposes range is most of what matters, so yeah, I can compare the OCA and CSG just like I can compare the LCR and CR762, because they're relatively interchangeable in a team composition. Shotguns aren't special snowflakes: as far as the META is concerned they're just guns that fill a certain set of ranges, and that's why nobody uses them when SMGs fill those ranges better.

 

The amount of thought that went into the original post is pretty impressive. I'm not really going to comment on your suggestions just yet but I will ask if you think SMGs need better balancing if we are to ever fix shotguns? The OCA is still at its stupid low ttk which it was given to help combat shotguns.

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