New Downside Suggestion For Improved Rifling

[vsb 6171]

17 minutes ago, Kewlin said:

 

MurkTheMerc Melee confirmed?

what have you done

[HighSociety 148]

5 hours ago, Tenginima said:

People complaining is not adequate proof, that something is broken. the IR3 nerf was a good nerf, and it made the mod more specialized, a sidegrade rather then a upgrade. 

Maybe actuall IR is not broken for Obeya and Obir if ppl choose to use it but for N-tec and other guns it didn't solved the problem. however the pre modded Shotguns went straight to the trashcan.

and u think the decreased RoF is a good thing? 

 

[LilyV3 323]

On 10/19/2018 at 10:53 PM, Kewlin said:

Definitely not more recoil, lol, that's not a good downside.

 

More bloom per shot I'd try.

 

but this would mean the n-tec is fine with it, since it deblooms very well, while it would hurt obir and obeya a lot more as they debloom less well. In the end n-tec needs a max dmg range nerf it ranges just too long in addition with its better mobiliy, high mag and still great accuracy.

 

[AxeTurboAgresor 268]

A little thought. Why do IR need any other downside than it already had anyway? Look, we have CJ that has little to no negative effect on certain weapons, For example CJ2 on OCA is like straigh upgrade with no significant downsides, while we can see CJ3 negative effect on it cuz of its high fire rate. HB has almost no downsides on r1 or r2 for certain weapons (but its still not worth it tho, i know.. It needs some love).

IR had little to no negaive effect on any weapon. Its downside was barelly noticeable, mainly on weapons who dont care about how fast they reach max bloom. I say, its old downsides need to be higher.

IR1: Increases maximum reticle bloom slightly. (multiplier 1.1 => 1.15]

IR2: Increases maximum reticle bloom moderately. (multiplier 1.15 => 1.225)

IR3: Increases maximum reticle bloom substantially. (multiplier 1.2 => 1.3)

 

All what IR need are small tweaks.

 

Edited October 22, 2018 by AxeTurboAgresor

[Kempington 295]

19 minutes ago, AxeTurboAgresor said:

A little thought. Why do IR need any other downside than it already had anyway? Look, we have CJ that has little to no negative effect on certain weapons, For example CJ2 on OCA is like straigh upgrade with no significant downsides, while we can see CJ3 negative effect on it cuz of its high fire rate. HB has almost no downsides on r1 or r2 for certain weapons (but its still not worth it tho, i know.. It needs some love).

IR had little to no negaive effect on any weapon. Its downside was barelly noticeable, mainly on weapons who dont care about how fast they reach max bloom. I say, its old downsides need to be higher.

IR1: Increases maximum reticle bloom slightly. (multiplier 1.1 => 1.15]

IR2: Increases maximum reticle bloom moderately. (multiplier 1.15 => 1.225)

IR3: Increases maximum reticle bloom substantially. (multiplier 1.2 => 1.3)

 

All what IR need are small tweaks.

 

That still wouldn't make a difference, since it's not per shot, it's the maximum bloom of the weapon as a whole. You could make the maximum bloom multiplier value anything you'd like and it wouldn't make that big of a difference, since you don't tend to max out the rate of fire on the weapons it's most used on. Sure, it'd affect SOME weapons, like the nssw and the atac, but that's about it. I might be missing one or two.

[AxeTurboAgresor 268]

@Kempington If I remember correctly, and it was not so long ago when I tested it myself, IR did not affected max bloom, but bloom per shot. Very "gently" I would say.

Only CJ affects max bloom.

 

But u were right that ATAC, and MANIC suffered the most. They jumped on its max bloom in 2 shots.

Edited October 22, 2018 by AxeTurboAgresor

[CookiePuss 5379]

6 hours ago, Kewlin said:

 

@MurkTheMerc Melee confirmed?

God damn it.

[LilyV3 323]

2 hours ago, AxeTurboAgresor said:

@Kempington If I remember correctly, and it was not so long ago when I tested it myself, IR did not affected max bloom, but bloom per shot. Very "gently" I would say.

Only CJ affects max bloom.

 

But u were right that ATAC, and MANIC suffered the most. They jumped on its max bloom in 2 shots.

 

no it only affected max bloom, which emans only on weapons you fired to the full crosshairsize ever felt a difference, stuff like tommy back when it was viable, and made you fire in burst shots.

 

even the old datafiles say so

 

http://apbdb.com/items/FnMod_Weapon_Rifling3/

 

and on the N-tec it only negatively affected CQC abilities when your sprayfired facehuggers, otherwise it never was a downside on obeya or N-tec because you never fired them to reach the non IR max bloom, or ven the max bloom with IR.

Edited October 22, 2018 by LilyV3

[AxeTurboAgresor 268]

@LilyV3 thats weird becouse I could swear there was no max bloom difference when I fired with IR3 on my weaponss. Maybe there is a slight max bloom increase  Anyway, why would both CJ and IR affect max bloom, while CJ had it even worse? Couldnt find IR3 test vid.

 

Edited October 22, 2018 by AxeTurboAgresor

[LilyV3 323]

Not sure when this vid is from, but don't forgte, IR 2 makes a 1.15 multiplier, so 15% more.

Further you use the marksmane mode which also applies a 0,35multiplier.  That makes the difference really small to see. Even more so by using HS2, which further reduces MM modes crosshair size.

 

 

a better test would have been sprinting and fully shooting (IR3 + HS3) then you could actually see a better difference since multipliers scale those  up much more. But as you see due to all the modifiers and the fact that inbetween the n-tecs shots it even sligly deblooms as recover starts before a second shot is done, the effect of any OR in MM isn't that big compared to fully auto with no IR. And given no one even used it at range at full spray there was literally no impact on ranged combat with a n-tec. Thats why sprinting with n-tec and IR while fully firing was basically one of the only situations IR did made a difference

 

 

Edited October 22, 2018 by LilyV3

[Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 269]

1 hour ago, AxeTurboAgresor said:

@LilyV3 thats weird becouse I could swear there was no max bloom difference when I fired with IR3 on my weaponss. Maybe there is a slight max bloom increase  Anyway, why would both CJ and IR affect max bloom, while CJ had it even worse? Couldnt find IR3 test vid.

 

Simple: CJ affected max bloom much more than IR did

 

Don't believe me. Go to the old database  (http://apbdb.com), pick a gun that has open slots and put on CJ then IR afterwards

[LilyV3 323]

7 minutes ago, Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 said:

Simple: CJ affected max bloom much more than IR did

 

Don't believe me. Go to the old database  (http://apbdb.com), pick a gun that has open slots and put on CJ then IR afterwards

I never understood this, as it says: "Increases Accuracy Bloom substantially" while the IR says "Increases maximum reticle bloom substantially"

 

yet both affects the same value. Feels to me, like CJ once affected the per shot modifier and was changed but the descriptions stayed the same. However, due to the nature of less natural recover inbetween the shots CJ does also increase how quick the crosshair blooms in general. or maybe thats the reason why this different descriptionw as chosen. But technically it didn't affected per shot modifier as the description would suggest.

[Tenginima 74]

18 hours ago, Kewlin said:

 

Yeah, reduced rate of fire was great, that's why the people who proposed it in the first place decided it was a bad idea.

They decided it was a bad idea do too community outrage, rather then it ACTUALLY being a bad nerf. However, I think an exception can be made towards this occation, as APB's population is so low right now, listening to the majority (in some cases) will be beneficial, even though the complaints themselves are based upon overall butthurtness.

 

Just as Shotguns atm, atleast the pump action ones, JG and CSG, are nearly useless compared to SMG's. Outside of their niche 7m range, their current low rate of fire simply hinders the gun too much. Honestly, shotguns should have the prepatch fire rate, but severely reduced range, such as 7m - 9m min range before damage drop off. Making them unstoppable close range, but still useful outside of it, yet not outplaying SMG's. As currently, CQC is not very viable with shotguns sadly. For although they can fight very well in their respective range, they are simply to specialized to be effective compared to OCA's and PMG's

[Tenginima 74]

18 hours ago, Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 said:

@Tenginima I wanna run 2/3 questions by you real quick. In layman terms, could you describe what you think bloom (bloom per shot/per shot modifier) and recoil do on a gun in apb

I'll ask my third question after you answer these two (or I might not depending your answer for recoil)

I'm not quite 100% sure what you mean with that question, but i'll try to answer as best as I can.

 

Bloom per shot is simply how much your bloom increases on a per shot basis, depending on how a game is written (code) it can either be lower values - less bloom per shot/more bloom per shot, or Higher values - less bloom per shot/more bloom per shot. Essentially, no matter how the game is written, bloom without  a form of exponential curve, like the NTEC for instance, will have a linear curve to it, making each shot add the exact same values to the increased bloom, such was the case with the old NTEC many years back. Think of it like the 1st shot increase bloom with let's say 0.5cm, then each shot wothout letting it recover would also add 0.5cm to the total, until you reach max bloom. The current NTEC uses a curve system, to where the 1st 2nd and 3rd shots and different values per shot. This I believe explains per shot multiplier. As it would seem that the old NTEC never had a type of bloom modifier, and if it had, it was very little.

[Tenginima 74]

18 hours ago, BXNNXD said:

is that not the whole point? you're gaining 15% range so you (might) lose some cqc ability

 

its the same principle hunting sight (and reflex sight, in the reverse) works on, why is it suddenly not ok?

 

i assume we're talking specifically about the ntec? in which case i would think the old downside of ir3 (increased maximum bloom) would be even less to your taste than increased bloom per shot

 

if not ntec specific i'd argue that raw ttk is more important than consistency in cqc, especially given that most guns that use ir3 start out far more accurate in marksmanship than dedicated cqc guns 

The point is to reduce it's effectiveness in CQC yes, however, increasing the "luck" factor in the game isn't a good enough solution. I use the NTEC as a gun since it's a simple example to make about AR's. And about the HS and RS argument. The thing about those is that while yes, HS increase bloom while hipfiring, it's so significant that while on paper, makes it more luck based, reality simply doesn't play out that way. as beyond face-hugging range (1 - 3m) you will struggle to hit things on the move. And using RS will only gimp the NTEC, as yes you can hipfire better with it, the hipfire is already atrocious on the ntec so you can barely hit anything.

 

The thing I am trying to argue for is that we reduce RNG to a point where it is not applicable in reality. Cause yes, in almost every instance, unless each gun is always pinpoint accurate, there is a factor of luck in the game, that can't realistically be removed. However, if it i so minimal to where it is not affecting the game in any large way or in a practical way, then it doesn't matter.

 

I've seen some comments about "why not just use a secondary for cqc?" and the answer is simply. As long as bloom is still manageable CQC, even though pistols can do a better job, your mainstray AR's will be able to put up a fight. To which I say, when you factor in gun balance, in the luck front, you need to consider both the entire game, and the specific situations where luck makes a big difference.

13 hours ago, HighSociety said:

Maybe actuall IR is not broken for Obeya and Obir if ppl choose to use it but for N-tec and other guns it didn't solved the problem. however the pre modded Shotguns went straight to the trashcan.

and u think the decreased RoF is a good thing? 

 

In general, yes I think the firerate decrease was a good idea in theory, albeit a bit poorly executed. It should have specific weapon role maluses and bonuses, like Cooling Jacket for shotguns. So for assault rifles, you get a firerate decrease, and maybe on rifles you get a smaller magazine capacity or something (Just and example, don't hang me lol)

[Kewlin 692]

8 hours ago, LilyV3 said:

 

but this would mean the n-tec is fine with it, since it deblooms very well, while it would hurt obir and obeya a lot more as they debloom less well. In the end n-tec needs a max dmg range nerf it ranges just too long in addition with its better mobiliy, high mag and still great accuracy.

 

 

I might have to admit that you may be right, however, I'm not sure in that case there's a great solution to the IR3 downside.

 

I really wish LO would test just a lower RoF nerf, because I honestly feel like that could work out, just the RoF nerf they had was way too high. (Of course no downside will work on every gun, for example the CR762 walking away from a RoF nerf practically un-harmed, and the SR15 getting entirely fucked, but no other non-purple mod is perfectly balanced on every gun, right?)

 

I do think, however, that changing the range increase didn't make sense, as CQC guns are already hit the hardest by a RoF nerf, so why should they also get the least benefit? At least if they bring back the RoF nerf they should consider redoing the values to make it not quite so percent based.

[Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 269]

1 hour ago, Tenginima said:

I'm not quite 100% sure what you mean with that question, but i'll try to answer as best as I can.

 

Bloom per shot is simply how much your bloom increases on a per shot basis, depending on how a game is written (code) it can either be lower values - less bloom per shot/more bloom per shot, or Higher values - less bloom per shot/more bloom per shot. Essentially, no matter how the game is written, bloom without  a form of exponential curve, like the NTEC for instance, will have a linear curve to it, making each shot add the exact same values to the increased bloom, such was the case with the old NTEC many years back. Think of it like the 1st shot increase bloom with let's say 0.5cm, then each shot wothout letting it recover would also add 0.5cm to the total, until you reach max bloom. The current NTEC uses a curve system, to where the 1st 2nd and 3rd shots and different values per shot. This I believe explains per shot multiplier. As it would seem that the old NTEC never had a type of bloom modifier, and if it had, it was very little.

My man writing an essay out here. You know how bloom works, which is good, but I was looking more for what bloom does to a gun

[Kewlin 692]

I'm going to retract my previous statements about recoil being a bad downside for IR3, I believe that a multiplier to the gun's recoil (the same multiplier for both horizontal and vertical) would be a good downside for the mod, perhaps better than bloom per shot.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Kewlin

[Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 269]

1 minute ago, Kewlin said:

I'm going to retract my previous statements about recoil being a bad downside for IR3, I believe that a multiplier to the gun's recoil (the same multiplier for both horizontal and vertical) would be a good downside for the mod, perhaps better than bloom per shot.

I'm leaving your discord :^)

[Kewlin 692]

13 minutes ago, Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 said:

I'm leaving your discord :^)

 

 

Nobody loves you anyways.

[CookiePuss 5379]

1 hour ago, Tenginima said:

~snip~

[Tenginima 74]

1 hour ago, Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 said:

My man writing an essay out here. You know how bloom works, which is good, but I was looking more for what bloom does to a gun

Bloom simply makes a gun more inaccurate.

[Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 269]

25 minutes ago, Tenginima said:

Bloom simply makes a gun more inaccurate.

Arite. Now for recoil. I assume you missed it

[Tenginima 74]

45 minutes ago, Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 said:

Arite. Now for recoil. I assume you missed it

Recoil is how much a gun jumps horizontally or vertically, atleast in APB.

[Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 269]

43 minutes ago, Tenginima said:

Recoil is how much a gun jumps horizontally or vertically, atleast in APB.

And now the final question. I borowed these recoil numbers from another game, but they should still serve the purpose

What do you understand of this