Pig is now useless

[Bambola 379]

It's like chopping a part of the healthy leg off because the person limps due their short leg syndrome. 

Edited September 18, 2020 by Bambola

[Motorola 107]

people mad they have to throw 2 percs now instead of 1 to use the pig... yikes.

Edited September 19, 2020 by Motorola

[Todesklinge 143]

Remove all stamina damage on all lethal weapons and grenades too and improfe the non lethal weapon series, for crimes too!

 

Non lethal slows down the enemy on hit (depending on the stamina damage) and enforcer + crimes can arrest/kidnap the oppponent. It gives a higher reward AND the knocked out enemy takes much longer for the reapawn = more safed time to complete the mission.

 

It makes no sense why Porcs or all (not stun grenade) grenades can deal stamina damage.

 

Pig (2 magacine ammo) need 2 shots to stun an opponent or ONE hit in the back.

Same for all non lethal, hits in the back do +100% stamina damage.

[lilpiggy 30]

55 minutes ago, Motorola said:

people mad they have to throw 2 percs now instead of 1 to use the pig... yikes.

Stop trolling. Nobody here is arguing to keep PIG + Perc as it was.

 

Removing/reducing the stamina damage or reducing the stamina damage blast radius for the Percussion Grenades is a better solution. Since it doesn't completely alters/nerfs the whole LTL dynamic. Which is an unintended consequence of the current PIG nerf.

Edited September 19, 2020 by lilpiggy

[Kempington 295]

2 hours ago, lilpiggy said:

Stop trolling. Nobody here is arguing to keep PIG + Perc as it was.

 

Removing/reducing the stamina damage or reducing the stamina damage blast radius for the Percussion Grenades is a better solution. Since it doesn't completely alters/nerfs the whole LTL dynamic. Which is an unintended consequence of the current PIG nerf.

 

Except that doesn't solve anything at all. You just make percs less effective, so what? You'd have to basically remove the stamina damage from percs if you wanted to keep the PIG the same as it was.

That doesn't solve the problem.

 

Another one of the big issues with the PIG was the fact that any primary weapon could setup the PIG for a stun in one shot. Pair that up with cover, corners, getting the drop on someone and they would have absolutely no time to react or respond to you doing what you're doing.

 

I'm not trying to downplay the annoyance and prevelance of PIG + Perc, but that wasn't the ONLY thing that made the PIG ridiculous. That's just the most common because it requires practically no skill or input from the player to succeed. A gimmick, as it were.

 

A pretty notorious combo for this was the ISSR-B + PIG combo. Tap them once with the ISSR-B and immediately stun them with the PIG. It really wasn't hard to do. Plus, you had a primary weapon that could easily play up to 85m, so you weren't exactly limited in range.

 

This change has significantly reduced the effectiveness of tapping with a primary and stunning with the PIG, as well as reducing the effectiveness of PIG + Perc. You can still PIG + Perc, but you actually have to hit them with the perc, not just throw it remotely close to them.

 

 

[lilpiggy 30]

1 hour ago, Kempington said:

You'd have to basically remove the stamina damage from percs if you wanted to keep the PIG the same as it was.

Sounds like a plan to me.

1 hour ago, Kempington said:

Another one of the big issues with the PIG was the fact that any primary weapon could setup the PIG for a stun in one shot. Pair that up with cover, corners, getting the drop on someone and they would have absolutely no time to react or respond to you doing what you're doing.

That there is no time to react is a general problem with APB game play design . Has nothing to do with the PIG.

1 hour ago, Kempington said:

A pretty notorious combo for this was the ISSR-B + PIG combo. Tap them once with the ISSR-B and immediately stun them with the PIG. It really wasn't hard to do. Plus, you had a primary weapon that could easily play up to 85m, so you weren't exactly limited in range.

I agree the ISSR shouldn't deal so much stamina damage.

1 hour ago, Kempington said:

You can still PIG + Perc, but you actually have to hit them with the perc, not just throw it remotely close to them.

I don't want to PIG + Perc. I would be happy if they would remove the Percs from the game.

[LilyRain 674]

2 hours ago, Kempington said:

Except that doesn't solve anything at all. You just make percs less effective, so what? You'd have to basically remove the stamina damage from percs if you wanted to keep the PIG the same as it was.

That doesn't solve the problem.

It actually solves some issues, unlike the latest change.

 

So percs will stop being a panic-button that works with everything. There are far more notorious, cheap combinations than PIG+perc and are actually way more devastating. The most recent buff to the OCA with CJ3 + perc is one of them. So is perc+aces, perc+pmg, and many others. All of these 'issues' would be solved if Percs get the nerf they should've got long time ago.

 

2 hours ago, Kempington said:

Another one of the big issues with the PIG was the fact that any primary weapon could setup the PIG for a stun in one shot. Pair that up with cover, corners, getting the drop on someone and they would have absolutely no time to react or respond to you doing what you're doing.

 

I'm not trying to downplay the annoyance and prevelance of PIG + Perc, but that wasn't the ONLY thing that made the PIG ridiculous. That's just the most common because it requires practically no skill or input from the player to succeed. A gimmick, as it were.

 

A pretty notorious combo for this was the ISSR-B + PIG combo. Tap them once with the ISSR-B and immediately stun them with the PIG. It really wasn't hard to do. Plus, you had a primary weapon that could easily play up to 85m, so you weren't exactly limited in range.

 

This change has significantly reduced the effectiveness of tapping with a primary and stunning with the PIG, as well as reducing the effectiveness of PIG + Perc. You can still PIG + Perc, but you actually have to hit them with the perc, not just throw it remotely close to them.

You are indirectly implying that using the OCA is more skillful, which is wrong on all fronts, yet the OCA deserved a buff in ttk? You do realize that cj3-OCA can now kill in 0.6s, the same amount of time all the LTL-hassle with PIG barely does AT ITS BEST at 1ms server latency... without even having to right-mouse-click.. Unbelievable.

 

You and your team on this very 'weapon balance' changes also deemed the jg+snub combo to kill within 0.5s acceptable.. You can't possibly justify that 0.6s (which is longer) to stun is not okay.. stun, not even kill, which automatically comes with a lot of sacrifices as well.

 

It is very apparent that this nerf is rage-driven & you are abusing your position to make it happen.

[Noob_Guardian 418]

3 hours ago, Kempington said:

 

Except that doesn't solve anything at all. You just make percs less effective, so what? You'd have to basically remove the stamina damage from percs if you wanted to keep the PIG the same as it was.

That doesn't solve the problem.

 

Another one of the big issues with the PIG was the fact that any primary weapon could setup the PIG for a stun in one shot. Pair that up with cover, corners, getting the drop on someone and they would have absolutely no time to react or respond to you doing what you're doing.

 

I'm not trying to downplay the annoyance and prevelance of PIG + Perc, but that wasn't the ONLY thing that made the PIG ridiculous. That's just the most common because it requires practically no skill or input from the player to succeed. A gimmick, as it were.

 

A pretty notorious combo for this was the ISSR-B + PIG combo. Tap them once with the ISSR-B and immediately stun them with the PIG. It really wasn't hard to do. Plus, you had a primary weapon that could easily play up to 85m, so you weren't exactly limited in range.

 

This change has significantly reduced the effectiveness of tapping with a primary and stunning with the PIG, as well as reducing the effectiveness of PIG + Perc. You can still PIG + Perc, but you actually have to hit them with the perc, not just throw it remotely close to them.

 

 

No-one is asking to keep pig the same, 800-850 stamina damage would have been sufficient, not 650 for one 10m shot with a .52/.6 equip with a 1.25s reload (with constant ghost shots).

 

Who cares if any weapon can set up the pig though, you still have to move from cover, fire, move back, then fire again, which would either be no different from shotgun kills or scout kills. If you have no cover, then that's whatever time out of cover + shots fired +.52/.6+time to fire which still is greater than most TTK's which hover at 7, plus you have to be within 10m.

 

The whole "pig issue" can pretty much be summed up with this sentence. Sorry you ran in and got ambushed, have you tried playing smarter?

 

Then wouldn't that be more of an issue with ISSR-B stamina damage? ISSR-B was created AFTER the pig, as such any such balance would then be the fault of the creator of it, and not the pig.

 

You could have easily went with nerfing the PIG less, and nerfing the Perc stamina damage for a better finite balance, especially when it comes to other LTL. It sounds more like you have a personal vendetta with the PIG, rather than an unbiased opinion.

 

and Lily is right, there are far more deadlier and more annoying synergies than pig n perc and when you look at reality, this whole "rebalance" could have been handled much better.

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by Noob_Guardian

[lilpiggy 30]

1 minute ago, Noob_Guardian said:

No-one is asking to keep pig the same, 800-850 stamina damage would have been sufficient, not 650 for one 10m shot with a .52/.6 equip with a 1.25s reload (with constant ghost shots).

I think the reload time is 2.25. APB Database seems to be incorrect.

[Noob_Guardian 418]

2 minutes ago, lilpiggy said:

I think the reload time is 2.25. APB Database seems to be incorrect.

i'll have to re-buy pig to see later, but i don't think its 2s

[Kevkof 806]

2 minutes ago, lilpiggy said:

I think the reload time is 2.25. APB Database seems to be incorrect.

 

The reload is 1.25 seconds, so you would be able to shoot again after that time.

The Fire Interval only matters if you would have more than 1 round in the magazine.

 

APBDB's info comes from the straight form the game files as those are provided to those running the DB.

The APBDB was updated to the values for v. 1.20.0.833440 as of today.

[lilpiggy 30]

5 minutes ago, Kevkof said:

 

The reload is 1.25 seconds, so you would be able to shoot again after that time.

The Fire Interval only matters if you would have more than 1 round in the magazine.

 

APBDB's info comes from the straight form the game files as those are provided to those running the DB.

The APBDB was updated to the values for v. 1.20.0.833440 as of today.

From 1 shot to the next it takes 2.25 secs. I just tested it.

[Kempington 295]

I'm so very glad you brought up the whole "it's harder to stun" thing lily, I really am.

 

You see, most people don't differentiate between "stunning" someone and "arresting" someone. You can abuse the fact that someone is stunned to go after the next enemy, deliberatly wait until the stun player is about to recover, then arrest or kill. You then make them wait even longer to get back into the fight, whether it be waiting for the arrest to finish and respawn screen, or just the respawn screen. Either way, you're taking a player out of the fight for longer than 20-25 seconds, which can make a huge difference in a team fight. Yes, you sacrifice a secondary weapon that can kill, but you can also take practically any primary in the game and it can setup the PIG for you in its previous state. As mentioned, ISSR-B + PIG. You have all ranges covered and don't have to worry about CQC much either if you play smart.

 

Noob_Guardian, your argument of "sorry you got ambushed" is a null point, as that can be applied to practically ANY gun in the game if you get caught by someone on a corner waiting for you. That does not apply here. You also forget how potent corner popping is. See the JG for example. There's quite a stur about how the JG almost beats everything in CQC with minimal effort due to being able to abuse cover exceptionally well and hit very hard in a single shot. Sure, that's its role, but in a third person shooter like APB, it's devastating.

 

Percussions are a problem in of themself and are not a direct factor of making other weapons viable. However, as mentioned before, the PIG doing 950 stun damage and allowing any primary weapon to tap you, was more of an issue. PIG Percing is annoying as hell, don't get me wrong, but that's not because of the Perc alone.

[Kevkof 806]

11 minutes ago, lilpiggy said:

From 1 shot to the next it takes 2.25 secs. I just tested it.

It is indeed, so the fire interval also needs to be taken into account.

Thank you for making sure. I double checked it as well and it is indeed 2.25.

 

But that aside, most people don't do 2 pig shots and use it more to finish off the stamina damage done with another weapon.

[lilpiggy 30]

2 minutes ago, Kevkof said:

But that aside, most people don't do 2 pig shots and use it more to finish off the stamina damage done with another weapon.

And that's why the nerf is such a big deal.

[LilyRain 674]

2 hours ago, Kempington said:

You see, most people don't differentiate between "stunning" someone and "arresting" someone. You can abuse the fact that someone is stunned to go after the next enemy, deliberatly wait until the stun player is about to recover, then arrest or kill. You then make them wait even longer to get back into the fight, whether it be waiting for the arrest to finish and respawn screen, or just the respawn screen. Either way, you're taking a player out of the fight for longer than 20-25 seconds, which can make a huge difference in a team fight. Yes, you sacrifice a secondary weapon that can kill, but you can also take practically any primary in the game and it can setup the PIG for you in its previous state. As mentioned, ISSR-B + PIG. You have all ranges covered and don't have to worry about CQC much either if you play smart.

Weapon-stats define what is possible and what is not. Your concerns also confirms that even people at your caliber only think about Primary→Secondary switching, but totally forget about the back-cycle (Secondary→Primary), which is important to examine your example about 'chaining-stuns'. Therefore, things really don't work that way in APB unless the Enforcer is playing against Silvers/Bronzes. WHICH would mean the Enforcer would literally delete those Criminals if they ditch LTL and go full-lethal.

 

Let us examine your concerns in what you have written.

 

The setting: Say an Enforcer is using ISSR-B/CCG+PIG prior to the PIG-nerf (both the ISSR-B and CCG require 1 full-second to equip, so they are evenly matched when it comes to this tactic). CQC-Criminal messes up so Enforcer succeeds in getting the first stun within 0.6s (practically a bit longer, but let's go with the stats). 2nd Criminal converges towards the Enforcer to finish what their partner began.

 

Enforcer's situation and best scenario: The PIG is already equipped after stunning the first target, but requires reloading as it can fire once per mag. With that said, the enforcer MUST spend 1.25 seconds to reload the PIG (which is already long enough to guarantee death). Best case scenario the Enforcer is able to fire as soon as the PIG is reloaded (+ zero seconds). Finally, the Enforcer will need 1 FULL second to go back to the ISSR-B/CCG in order to land the finishing shot. If everything goes perfectly, the Enforcer would need 2.25 seconds in total to stun the 2nd criminal.. which IS NOT going to happen in a match against Golds. 2.25 seconds is enough to die by a weapon that kills in 0.7s exactly 3 times. Let alone quick and/or modded CQC weapons such as ACES, OCA, PMG, Manic,.

 

In a mission that isn't filled with players learning the ropes, this tactic is only effective against a singular target, simply because LTL primaries are gimped in everything, including weapon equip times (you already know how gimped and weak LTL weapons are and you facepalm live on Twitch whenever you see a teammate with LTL). Therefore, your concern doesn't really happen. Furthermore, players these days are interested in getting the perfect-looking scoreboard and tbagging... nobody actually abuses mission times in this way because it actually backfires. Those who spawn slightly-late would have a lead and be on their way towards getting to the next mission objective and get the best spots.

-------------------------------------

Furthermore, ISSR-B has a minimum time to kill of 0.9 seconds, which is usually not achievable because of the weapon's spread. 0.9s is quite high for a time to kill in mediocre to serious matches. The PIG is also limited to 9 meters plus the slow-speed of backward-switching explained above. Therefore, the combination of ISSR-B/CCG+PIG easily pales and falls short in comparison to MANY loadout choices at any given range. It really was never a problem as it can be easily dealt with.

-------------------------------------

Additionally about 'chaining'. With the latest changes, the JG+Snub combo that was deemed acceptable to have a Primary→Secondary switch time of 0.5s.. is actually the combo that is remotely capable of dancing back and forth between Gold opponents.. simply because:

Fun fact: The latest changes made Snub→JG FASTER than JG→Snub, which makes the tactic viable BOTH ways. Its backward-cycle is far from being absurdly slow, especially when JG is equipped with 3-point-sling-3 as that is the standard mod for this tactic.. 3PS3-JG requires 0.49s to equip!!

 

To make things easier, neither the JG nor the Snub have a bolt-timer mechanic and the smallest magazine capacity of both weapons is the Snub's, at 6 bullets per mag... So the Player is in fact able to get a kill every half a second and potentially wipe an inflated-mission that contains 6 vs 6 players like this SOLO!! If this was deemed acceptable, again.. there is really NO justifying stunning a singular Gold-player in 0.6 seconds a problem. It truly never was.

[ZoriaDunne 327]

On 9/18/2020 at 6:07 PM, LilyRain said:

Yet cj3 OCA/Euryale is fine? At least LTL+PIG required skill and effort yet still falls short to these.

 

Might wanna actually play the game with something respectable before trying to state concluding remarks.

Why do you speak as if you know what I play with?
Btw, there's no such thing as "respectable" setup, there's always someone crying about what you use.

[LilyRain 674]

3 minutes ago, ZoriaDunne said:

Why do you speak as if you know what I play with?
Btw, there's no such thing as "respectable" setup, there's always someone crying about what you use.

Because only those who fail with the best CQC weapons would want LTL nerfed.

[ReaperTheButcher 177]

22 minutes ago, LilyRain said:

Because only those who fail with the best CQC weapons would want LTL nerfed.

 

This is not a smart thing to say, here is a big fat dislike, you dont think it is a little outrageous to say this ? with certain tactics you could stun players with less time to stun then any weapon time to kill in the game.

Edited September 19, 2020 by ReaperTheButcher

[LilyRain 674]

4 minutes ago, ReaperTheButcher said:

This is not a smart thing to say, here is a big fat dislike, you dont think it is a little outrageous to say this ? with certain tactics you could stun players with less time to stun then any weapon time to kill in the game.

Thanks for confirming that your knowledge is severely limited and that you don't belong in any weapon-balancing discussion.

 

Play the game some more.

[ReaperTheButcher 177]

8 minutes ago, LilyRain said:

Thanks for confirming that your knowledge is severely limited and that you don't belong in any weapon-balancing discussion.

 

Play the game some more.

Let me just leave it right here...

This is stupid to even argue with what everybody else can tell you, seems like you forgot about the csg/pig switching..

and yeah.. i played the game more then you thats for sure.

 

Your statement has no point

 

Edit: i find it pretty funny you are arguing with Kempington about actual ingame facts, seems like a no brainer to me.

Edited September 19, 2020 by ReaperTheButcher

[LilyRain 674]

1 minute ago, ReaperTheButcher said:

Let me just leave it right here...

This is stupid to even argue with what everybody else can tell you, seems like you forgot about the csg/pig switching..

and yeah.. i played the game more then you thats for sure.

CSG+PIG has the exact same time-to-stun as ISSR-B+PIG and CCG+PIG (0.6s), so no, nothing here was forgotten.

 

You just said no lethal weapon in the game can kill faster than that combination (0.6s)... which is enough for most people to discredit anything you say from this point onwards.. You keep calling people stupid but the fact that you posted your total play time yet still unaware of this fact tells everything. More of a reason to further say that you are yet to partake in any weapon-balancing discussion.

 

Kindly step away and expand your knowledge rather than make a fool out of yourself.

 

 

[ReaperTheButcher 177]

13 minutes ago, LilyRain said:

CSG+PIG has the exact same time-to-stun as ISSR-B+PIG and CCG+PIG (0.6s), so no, nothing here was forgotten.

 

You just said no lethal weapon in the game can kill faster than that combination (0.6s)... which is enough for most people to discredit anything you say from this point onwards.. You keep calling people stupid but the fact that you posted your total play time yet still unaware of this fact tells everything. More of a reason to further say that you are yet to partake in any weapon-balancing discussion.

 

Kindly step away and expand your knowledge rather than make a fool out of yourself.

 

 

If i am not mistaken there is not a single primary weapon that can kill you with less than 0.6 TTK (Used to be JG/ snub switching which was "nerfed as well") as consistently as you could do with all those dirty none lethal tactics, all this "nerf" did was to make those dirty tactics less consistent, seems like you cry about your PIG being nerfed, dont forget everything has a reason to it and alot of brain storming behind it, i think @Kempington has explained it the best here:

5 hours ago, Kempington said:

I'm so very glad you brought up the whole "it's harder to stun" thing lily, I really am.

 

You see, most people don't differentiate between "stunning" someone and "arresting" someone. You can abuse the fact that someone is stunned to go after the next enemy, deliberatly wait until the stun player is about to recover, then arrest or kill. You then make them wait even longer to get back into the fight, whether it be waiting for the arrest to finish and respawn screen, or just the respawn screen. Either way, you're taking a player out of the fight for longer than 20-25 seconds, which can make a huge difference in a team fight. Yes, you sacrifice a secondary weapon that can kill, but you can also take practically any primary in the game and it can setup the PIG for you in its previous state. As mentioned, ISSR-B + PIG. You have all ranges covered and don't have to worry about CQC much either if you play smart.

 

Noob_Guardian, your argument of "sorry you got ambushed" is a null point, as that can be applied to practically ANY gun in the game if you get caught by someone on a corner waiting for you. That does not apply here. You also forget how potent corner popping is. See the JG for example. There's quite a stur about how the JG almost beats everything in CQC with minimal effort due to being able to abuse cover exceptionally well and hit very hard in a single shot. Sure, that's its role, but in a third person shooter like APB, it's devastating.

 

Percussions are a problem in of themself and are not a direct factor of making other weapons viable. However, as mentioned before, the PIG doing 950 stun damage and allowing any primary weapon to tap you, was more of an issue. PIG Percing is annoying as hell, don't get me wrong, but that's not because of the Perc alone.

Oh and i did notice that u like some color to your posts 
so here you i have some colors for you, just because i am nice today.

 

oh and i do participate in weapon balancing only in the case i see something as stupid as your argument here.

Edited September 19, 2020 by ReaperTheButcher

[LilyRain 674]

7 minutes ago, ReaperTheButcher said:

If i am not mistaken there is not a single primary weapon that can kill you with less than 0.6 TTK as consistently as you could do with all those dirty none lethal tactics, all this "nerf" did was to make those dirty tactics less consistent, seems like you cry about your PIG being nerfed, dont forget everything has a reason to it and alot of brain storming behind it, i think @Kempington has explained it the best here:

Oh and i did notice that u like some color to your posts 
so here you have some colors for you, just because i am nice today.

I am sorry, but you are very mistaken.. Consistency is not a problem against PIG as it only goes up to a maximum of 9 meters.. Most PIG users would fight at 5-6 meters.. if you miss at that range, God help you. Even the new JG+Snub is faster as I have shown above. You simply did not read.

 

And no, Kempington's concerns were debunked. I am interested in seeing what he says next.

Edited September 19, 2020 by LilyRain

[TheMessiah 430]

Some people forget that the goal of every game must be to be fun after all.So stop with this nerfs,balances and all other sh*ti stuff to the weapons.Who cares if their balanced or not?We all gonna play some pro tournaments with 1 million dolar prize and thats why everything must be balanced or what?Doesnt matter if the carbine kills with 5 shots,if you can quick switch with hvr or jump shoot with the sittin duck.Stop with the b*llsh*ts in this dead game already.The game must be FUN period.

p.s. and yea im happy to post this cause i know u cant dislike it.Ahhh im free...

Edited September 19, 2020 by TheMessiah