Help-a-Noob

[Jazeker 1082]

I love it, still the old version showed very few new people joined because of it and existing people will always find a way to abuse it, even with a 'random' assignment.

 

There aren't enough new players, even less of those that stay. A RAF system would be nice.. but first and foremost finding a way to attract new recruits en masse would be great.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Jazeker

[Uru! 50]

5 hours ago, Trivirium said:

A whole paragraph and a half just to throw a bow on basically saying "ur bad, get gud".

to someone who plays games once a year sure

but anyone who has played more than one modern game can tell you that the amount of handholding, unnecessary visual clutter from "guides" and things of the sort are incredibly, incredibly annoying and unwarranted.

making a tutorial that's already functional for what it's worth more intrusive doesn't help anyone, but rather pushes people away. it doesn't take a genius to gather that.

5 hours ago, Trivirium said:

Mega man, yeah, a platformer that afaik, doesn't have more than one person playing at a given time, nor is it against other people.

 

>Uses BnS and genre to debunk previous point, uses a platformer as a point of own. Can't tell if you actually keep track of what you're saying or if you just missed that all together.

wow it's almost like you have the reading comprehension of a five year old, did you even read what i had quoted?

i'm not sure i've seen someone strawman a point so bad, but even if we're going with your narrative:

you used an example of a niche differing genre game's tutorial in a way you believed benefitted it

i used an example of a less niche differing genre game's lack of tutorial as a major strength

aside from that, it seems like you really don't have an argument for such classic games being so successful and lauded even now without forcing the player to take baby steps

or do you think there are people writing forum posts complaining about how mario isn't "beginner friendly because it doesn't explain the mechanics"?

5 hours ago, Trivirium said:

Also, Soul Calibur and smash both have extensive tutorials on comboing.

t. someone who has never played smash

soul calibur shows you how to do certain moves ✓

soul calibur doesn't babysit you and tell you when to use certain moves because they're situational

looking at a character's moveset and attempting every move once doesn't make you good because tutorials do not make you skilled at a game

how could you miss the point this badly

5 hours ago, Trivirium said:

I don't expect to be a master at a game after a tutorial,

12 hours ago, Trivirium said:

I expect to learn how to play the game well through a tutorial.

which is it chief

5 hours ago, Trivirium said:

and in the instances that game mechanics become usable in game are in the rare instances where again, skill gap is involved and the likes. Regardless the things I mentioned are clearly not intended as apart of APB, that's like saying that every ban ever done over exploiting out-of-map areas shouldn't have been done because "it was a feature".

did you have a stroke while writing this?

5 hours ago, Trivirium said:

A tutorial is meant to help a player and you just seem to want to hinder any sort of help that the new players could use by saying "fuck em, I didn't have my hand held." The tutorial can also be skipped so there's that too if you're that afraid of having your hand held.

the tutorial teaches you the fundamentals of the game.

that is all it should do.

i strongly advise you reread my post, maybe two or three times to make it stick, and think to yourself really hard

how am i hindering new players when all i have advocated is not making the tutorial needlessly intrusive, and utilizing an already implemented game tips feature on the loading screen

5 hours ago, Trivirium said:

What's your deal? Did someone hurt you? Just because you, and like myself and others, have figured out how to play this game, new players who sometimes never have even seen a third person shooter, have a hard enough game to play as it is, but when you have people with the mindset of sink or swim it makes learning a game a lot less fun.

p r o j e c t i n g

also see my last paragraph, and please for my sake quote where i said "remove the tutorial because players new to the scene don't deserve help" because i don't remember saying that

5 hours ago, Trivirium said:

The game will die if it doesn't get the help it needs and a tutorial or even an easier way for new players to cope with the current stigma. Something has to change.

out of anyone i have ever mentioned APB to who doesn't have over 1,000 hours in the game

not a single person has ever said "man that game's tutorial is so bad"

the stigma has absolutely nothing to do with the tutorial

are we talking about the same game?????

5 hours ago, Trivirium said:

Moronic to think this game doesn't have a skill gap. Kinda why the threat system has so many issues no?

let me emphasize why that thing you said was so funny

5 hours ago, Trivirium said:

 a skill gap.

did you see it

let me make it even clearer

5 hours ago, Trivirium said:

skill

so you agree with me that the major difference between a silver player and gold player is skill

but then you also try to argue that the reason new/bad players quit is because of a lack of knowledge?

5 hours ago, Trivirium said:

APB might be a simple game, but with weapon ranges, modifications that change statistics that aren't even reflected in game or market properly, mod descriptions being broken and just about every other small thing adds up to a learning curve and complexity intended or not.

it's too bad you didn't choose to argue that the weapon stats & mod functionality be made clearer in the inventory & shops rather than a more intrusive tutorial, i'd have actually agreed with you

 

but oh well

 

you really aren't going to get a passing grade if you don't start putting in the work young man

 

[SK4LP 62]

(on Citadel) we should have language channel .... general chan, is sometimes hard to follow

or in dis case a newbie chan

most of us reply to newbie, and help them

 

[VickyFox 353]

5 hours ago, Trivirium said:

I very much doubt it was intended, to prevent door camping or not. Throwing a nade clean under a door or through the cracks of a door is silly. Especially with legendary guns with mods specifically designed to punch through doors/objects.

The Cap 40 Sargent and Colby Commander are the only 2 guns in APB that have piercing mod.

 

Is it really a frequent threat?

The flip side of the coin is that people can jump kick open doors to avoid being shot, unintended but kept in game too.

[Trivirium 62]

7 hours ago, Uru! said:

-snip-

Again, another post with a fatalistic attitude towards sinking or swimming with the current tutorial.

 

Skills are taught and gathered over playtime sure. You can scream hand holding all you want but when I see that people can struggle with markers, distance, not knowing the map inside/out while struggling to do objectives all while being spawn killed or killed over and over after just reaching the point.

 

They need help, and they won't find it dying over and over.

 

These are things I've personally seen first hand while training others. And you're telling me the tutorial is okay, yet I KNOW that it isn't and it doesn't teach very well. 

 

Sure you didn't say "remove the tutorial" but the current state the tutorial is in, there's not much help to be given.

 

Grats, you played some cornerstone plat former fighting games in your time, same. And SC basically tells you every move you can do with whatever char you're using. So there's that. And I have my DS in the other room with smash currently in it. So idk what you're trying to say, I'd to point out that both games have a following well over anywhere near APB's. So community support is waaaaay more present. Can't learn a combo? Tutorial online on how to do it. APB doesn't have that luxury. 

 

Clearly we ran in circles about genre and honestly you seemed to just repeat what I said in the first reply about reusing games for different points but let's just ignore that retardation all together.

 

Please tell me again how our game population is doing so well with new players? I'm genuinely curious if you honestly think that the current tutorial is any bit helpful?

 

Learning how to play a game and not be useless =/ playing the game pro league. reeeeee idiotic statement.

 

You seem to like to call out logical fallacies yet you throw the point of an argument into orbit? 

 

Can we reel back on the hypocrisies? Especially with the projecting thingy there.

 

And last I checked the tutorial is for those who have no skill and are new to the game, so using skill as a point of argument in a situation of trying to "get gud" is a little patootie backwards.

 

We're trying to help the unskilled to make them skilled. Not hinder their growth with a shite tutorial.

 

Honestly at this point, I don't get what you're on about, you just debunk shit and throw fancy words but you literally aren't helping anyone.

 

Kinda like that person who criticizes a group project but does nothing to contribute to the effort. 

 

Make a constructive suggestion for every point you debunk then, other than "it's hand holding" and "intrusive" because last I checked, if we're going to play the "what I said and didn't say" game then you could pick up on the hint of having just a better tutorial, maybe one that doesn't look like a shitty out of place UI element considering you seem to be obsessed with intrusiveness and hand holding. Maybe it doesn't need to ever come up in mission district. Maybe it should have it's own district away from people who already know how to play the game. All these things that COULD be done. Instead you.. I don't even know what you're doing at this point other than complaining over people getting more help lmao 

 

And that's fucked up imo.

 

As for weapon stats, I never said that had to be in the tutorial, I'm just pointing out that the current state of the game is hard enough to grasp let alone when things don't even work right.

 

I think this will be my last reply as it's honestly a waste of time. I've said the constructive things I've needed to say, you're just ridiculing for fun at this point and I'm pretty sure the Forums aren't exactly a place to banter back and fourth.

 

To sum it up as far as I can tell, you think the current tutorial is fine and they should just stick with it.

 

I don't see any other feedback other than you complaining about what I have to say and no alternative to a better system seeing as you think it's fine.

 

I can bet there are plenty of people who think, like myself, that the tutorial needs work and I'm sure it'll be reworked.

 

End of story

[Trivirium 62]

7 hours ago, VickyFox said:

The Cap 40 Sargent and Colby Commander are the only 2 guns in APB that have piercing mod.

 

Is it really a frequent threat?

The flip side of the coin is that people can jump kick open doors to avoid being shot, unintended but kept in game too.

I have no issue with either, I have the commander. The issue I have is HVRs hitting me through closed doors, and nades being thrown under the doors.

[SLICKIEM 118]

1 hour ago, Trivirium said:

nades being thrown under the doors

yup, pretty annoying. i've even been able to throw percs through the side gaps in doors before making a push. it's really dumb.

[Danimal 36]

The current tutorial is great for showing the basics of the game but as for most of the things needed to actually contribute to a match is only gained by playing over and over. Watching and mimicking things done by your teammates and opposition then applying those means to future games played.

 

The only way I can think of speeding up the learning process of game mechanics not already implemented  in the current tutorial, aside from forum topics would be a mentorship program which seems to already have a unofficial gathering of those willing to help newcomers. 

 

A year ago I returned to a game I played before APB was released(released 2013). Everything had changed. New worlds. New weapons. New skills. New mentorship program where I met a very knowledgeable person who took me under their wing and showed me how to succeed in the worlds we set foot upon. It would have taken me 5 times longer to figure out the revamped mechanics of this game if it hadn't been for my mentor. This is why I support anyone helping their fellow players new or old. 

 

 

[Uru! 50]

6 hours ago, Trivirium said:

Again, another post with a fatalistic attitude towards sinking or swimming with the current tutorial.

it's like you read half of my post

6 hours ago, Trivirium said:

Skills are taught and gathered over playtime sure.

if you agree then why did you spend such a long time arguing non-points

this is the absolute point that i was trying to convey to you which you apparently failed to understand until just now

6 hours ago, Trivirium said:

You can scream hand holding all you want but when I see that people can struggle with markers, distance, not knowing the map inside/out while struggling to do objectives all while being spawn killed or killed over and over after just reaching the point.

so the tutorial is supposed to teach players depth perception?

the tutorial is supposed to teach players map knowledge?

these are skills

that you gain

say it with me now

"OVER TIME"

6 hours ago, Trivirium said:

They need help, and they won't find it dying over and over.

 

These are things I've personally seen first hand while training others. And you're telling me the tutorial is okay, yet I KNOW that it isn't and it doesn't teach very well.

so what, do you suppose that the tutorial play the game for new players?

if someone is having difficulties landing grenades near enemies because they can't get used to how it arcs, no tutorial is going to help them get better at that.

because it's a skill

that is developed over time

by playing the game.

if someone loses an objective because they didn't think to cover an angle that an enemy came from

a tutorial won't help with that

because map knowledge is a skill

that is developed over time

by playing the game.

 

the last time I played APB, i had introduced my friends (who i regularly play games like CS with).

i had created a new account just to ensure that our threats would be sync'd.

we DID the tutorial for the free weapon selector and:

i did not have any qualms with it, neither did my friends who had never played APB before in their life

we were all gold within 10 matches

 

doesn't sound like the system failed us

6 hours ago, Trivirium said:

Sure you didn't say "remove the tutorial" but the current state the tutorial is in, there's not much help to be given.

you know what i agree, the tutorial should give new players a toggleable aimbot and wallhacks to help them improve their k/d

6 hours ago, Trivirium said:

Grats, you played some cornerstone plat former fighting games in your time, same. And SC basically tells you every move you can do with whatever char you're using. So there's that. And I have my DS in the other room with smash currently in it. So idk what you're trying to say, I'd to point out that both games have a following well over anywhere near APB's. So community support is waaaaay more present. Can't learn a combo? Tutorial online on how to do it. APB doesn't have that luxury.

again, it's as if you didn't even read my argument

14 hours ago, Uru! said:

soul calibur shows you how to do certain moves ✓

soul calibur doesn't babysit you and tell you when to use certain moves because they're situational

looking at a character's moveset and attempting every move once doesn't make you good because tutorials do not make you skilled at a game

smash does not have character specific tutorials whatsoever.

also, how are you going to say "tutorial online on how to do it", i thought we were talking about ingame tutorials?

if we're talking about in general, then you have absolutely no argument, because anything a new player could want to know could be found on the forums, youtube, or one of the two wikis.

6 hours ago, Trivirium said:

Clearly we ran in circles about genre and honestly you seemed to just repeat what I said in the first reply about reusing games for different points but let's just ignore that retardation all together.

"i'm going to ignore your point because i'm wrong"

6 hours ago, Trivirium said:

Please tell me again how our game population is doing so well with new players? I'm genuinely curious if you honestly think that the current tutorial is any bit helpful?

you haven't argued that but okay, let's argue this along with your inane stigma comment from before

let's mosey on over to the steam reviews shall we?

well that can't be good, surely all these negative reviews are because of the tutorial as you say?

hmm, given that this is someone with a lot of hours, let's check out a review from a newer player, surely that has to do with the tutorial

alright alright, hear me out, third time's the charm, we'll definitely figure out why these new players aren't sticking around

huh. well that's interesting. it almost seems like the tutorial is one of the last things on people's minds.

feel free to filter by negative and try to cherrypick one about the tutorial; i sorted by most popular, scrolled quite a bit and didn't see one mention of it.

beyond the steam reviews, there's an astounding mass of negative reviews from game journalists and youtubers, particularly about the console versions which do not leave a good impression on someone checking out the game.

6 hours ago, Trivirium said:

Learning how to play a game and not be useless =/ playing the game pro league. reeeeee idiotic statement.

you can have all the knowledge

but if you don't have the aim

or the awareness, or map knowledge, or anything that a tutorial can't teach you

then you will lose to someone who does.

this is what separates a good player from a bad player.

this is what you keep failing to grasp.

6 hours ago, Trivirium said:

And last I checked the tutorial is for those who have no skill and are new to the game, so using skill as a point of argument in a situation of trying to "get gud" is a little patootie backwards.

the third time i'm saying this:

the tutorial is meant to show you the fundamentals of the game.

"how to move"

"how to open doors"

"how to spawn your car"

it's meant to explain the mechanics of the game to someone who wouldn't otherwise know the mechanics

because every game has different mechanics

tutorials are not necessarily for people without skill

if you take someone who is global elite in CS, someone who has good aim, awareness, reaction speed, etc. and throw them into apb without doing the tutorial

they'll probably have a lot of questions, such as "how do i get a personal vehicle" "how do i customize my character" "why don't i have grenades" "why did i run out of ammo / why am i not spawning with ammo"

these are all things the tutorial teaches you

6 hours ago, Trivirium said:

We're trying to help the unskilled to make them skilled. Not hinder their growth with a shite tutorial.

uh

no?

we're trying to help new players feel comfortable in the game

you can't help people get skill, because the only thing that produces skill is practice

6 hours ago, Trivirium said:

Honestly at this point, I don't get what you're on about, you just debunk shit and throw fancy words but you literally aren't helping anyone.

it would help if you would actually read my post

6 hours ago, Trivirium said:

Make a constructive suggestion for every point you debunk then, other than "it's hand holding" and "intrusive" because last I checked, if we're going to play the "what I said and didn't say" game then you could pick up on the hint of having just a better tutorial, maybe one that doesn't look like a shitty out of place UI element considering you seem to be obsessed with intrusiveness and hand holding. Maybe it doesn't need to ever come up in mission district. Maybe it should have it's own district away from people who already know how to play the game. All these things that COULD be done. Instead you.. I don't even know what you're doing at this point other than complaining over people getting more help lmao

i believe the tutorial in its current state is adequate ✓

i believe that if you wanted to provide situational advice, it should go in the tips section along with all the other situational advice ✓

i believe that making a tutorial more intrusive will not benefit new players ✓

i believe that a tutorial does not provide skill at a game ✓

i believe that in order to gain skill, you need to practice ✓

i believe that new player retention has little to nothing to do with the tutorial ✓

other, more skill based games with much less in terms of a tutorial see much less complaining from the community regarding it ✓

 

these are things i have said spanning 3 posts. to take all that and say that my argument is just unconstructive and solely against "handholding and intrusiveness", that just seems pretty silly.

6 hours ago, Trivirium said:

As for weapon stats, I never said that had to be in the tutorial, I'm just pointing out that the current state of the game is hard enough to grasp let alone when things don't even work right.

congratulations you're turning me into a broken record for number of times saying "did you even read what i had wrote"

15 hours ago, Uru! said:

it's too bad you didn't choose to argue that the weapon stats & mod functionality be made clearer in the inventory & shops rather than a more intrusive tutorial, i'd have actually agreed with you

15 hours ago, Uru! said:

in the inventory & shops

interesting

6 hours ago, Trivirium said:

I think this will be my last reply as it's honestly a waste of time. I've said the constructive things I've needed to say, you're just ridiculing for fun at this point and I'm pretty sure the Forums aren't exactly a place to banter back and fourth.

 

don't be like this fellow.

don't be the kind of person who ignores every other opposing viewpoint just because you believe "but i'm doing this for the greater good"

because even gandhi was very wrong when it came to his view on how to deal with the smallpox pandemic of his people.

 

[Trivirium 62]

23 minutes ago, Uru! said:

-snip-

I really didn't think I was going to have to reply, you seem to omit things I say or outright ignore them all together.

 

I never said a more intrusive tutorial is needed, in fact, I said maybe a separate mission district is what is needed. Quite the opposite of "intrusive".\

 

I never said I didn't see your point of view, but from a global elite standard of CS:GO they already have gaming expirence, and if people choose APB as one of their free shooters to try while getting into PC gaming, again, we have undeveloped skills that a plain form of text can't exactly help effectively.

 

You do realize there are learning types right? Visual, Auditory, and Kinesthetic learning... Two of which are neglected in APB's fully text based tutorial. So if we want to argue learning curves for independent people and how a standard cut and dry text based tutorial with NO engaging features other than an annoying board that blocks a good chunk of your screen. We might be here a long time.

 

We're clearly going to run in circles if you stand firm on a different opinion. I think the tutorial could use work, you don't. You don't work for LO so ultimately you have no say in the matter but you are free to express your opposition to my opinion. I'm just trying to make suggestions to better a decent game and I shouldn't be ridiculed based on that.

 

What isn't okay, is that you demonize me with some wise crack about gandhi or the 5 year old comments and whatnot. Childish if anything. Insults have no place in an argument and I do stand by what I said in saying that it was idiotic to think the tutorial is in an okay state. For you and your friends who play games constantly, situational awareness is a skill that can be transferred anywhere. APB is a free game with a $0 entry price point and with that being said, a lot of people trying to find something new to play could look at this game and go "oh neat" but when they spawn into a mission district. They're met with Auto Ready and being forced into a mission without even being told the basics.

 

And to say that there is a right and wrong in this matter is ludicrous because as far as I'm concerned. Tips never hurt anyone, nor did a good tutorial. NOT AN INTRUSIVE ONE. Somehow you can't differentiate from good vs intrusive.

 

P.S. Statistics shown only on steam probably don't count for everyone else who uses the G1 launcher or the likes, kinda hard to take anything from a bias prospective of just one source. Albeit an uneducated one at that, hence a lot of the negative reviews being about either the toxicity of the community (a valid claim) or the P2W stigma which is false to a degree.  

 

Also you make a habit of blowing things out of proportion, like giving players aimbot and whatnot. Idiotic statements that twist points of view into overly negative effects. Noice slippery slope fallacy.

 

Giving players tips on how to hide behind walls or anything isn't going to hinder or intrude on your precious time. Especially with a big fucking SKIP button if you're so unhappy with it. 

 

Making a mountain out of this mole hill of a tutorial. 

Edited January 31, 2019 by Trivirium
Side note

[Uru! 50]

17 minutes ago, Trivirium said:

I never said a more intrusive tutorial is needed, in fact, I said maybe a separate mission district is what is needed. Quite the opposite of "intrusive".\

17 minutes ago, Trivirium said:

You do realize there are learning types right? Visual, Auditory, and Kinesthetic learning... Two of which are neglected in APB's fully text based tutorial. So if we want to argue learning curves for independent people and how a standard cut and dry text based tutorial with NO engaging features other than an annoying board that blocks a good chunk of your screen. We might be here a long time.

i'm not sure how you can say two conflicting things right next to eachother

but i'll take your bait for your completely uninformed statement:

it's not text based, you can't progress through the tutorial without actually doing what it tells you to do.

source: as mentioned, i did the tutorial not that long ago.

 

17 minutes ago, Trivirium said:

I never said a more intrusive tutorial is needed, in fact, I said maybe a separate mission district is what is needed. Quite the opposite of "intrusive".\

too bad you only mentioned it briefly in one of your posts and didn't bother to talk about that more, maybe i would have agreed.

but oh well

17 minutes ago, Trivirium said:

I never said I didn't see your point of view, but from a global elite standard of CS:GO they already have gaming expirence, and if people choose APB as one of their free shooters to try while getting into PC gaming, again, we have undeveloped skills that a plain form of text can't exactly help effectively.

are you suggesting that people replay the tutorial over and over as a form of practice?

you would do well not to completely ignore this specific thing i said:

35 minutes ago, Uru! said:

tutorials are not necessarily for people without skill

if you take someone who is global elite in CS, someone who has good aim, awareness, reaction speed, etc. and throw them into apb without doing the tutorial

they'll probably have a lot of questions, such as "how do i get a personal vehicle" "how do i customize my character" "why don't i have grenades" "why did i run out of ammo / why am i not spawning with

 

17 minutes ago, Trivirium said:

You do realize there are learning types right? Visual, Auditory, and Kinesthetic learning... Two of which are neglected in APB's fully text based tutorial. So if we want to argue learning curves for independent people and how a standard cut and dry text based tutorial with NO engaging features other than an annoying board that blocks a good chunk of your screen. We might be here a long time.

again, you clearly aren't aware of how the tutorial actually is. you don't get a check nor rewards for any stages unless you actually complete what the tutorial says to do.

17 minutes ago, Trivirium said:

Insults have no place in an argument

LOL

back up buddy, let's see who started insulting who first

my very first reply to you in its entirety:

On 1/29/2019 at 2:46 PM, Uru! said:

you understand that the entire point of the tutorial, or any tutorial in any game, is to teach you the basics

yes?

you also understand how silly it would be to implement "get out of a car on the other side of an enemy" into a tutorial?

i fail to see how you associate that with the tutorial when also mentioning tips, which is where situational things like that belong

 

also, you have to understand that things like jump kicking doors just won't make it into tutorials because it wasn't necessarily an intended feature. do you suppose smash should have tutorials on wavedashing?

how absolutely vitriolic, how could anyone handle the amount of insults in that post is beyond me

your first reply:

On 1/29/2019 at 6:03 PM, Trivirium said:

You're an idiot if you think a tutorial isn't to inform a player as much as possible to improve their time playing the game..

big brain strategy coming out of you to back up now, when everything i've said has been in direct response to something you've said

but let's continue with what may be your funniest paragraph to date

17 minutes ago, Trivirium said:

For you and your friends who play games constantly, situational awareness is a skill that can be transferred anywhere. APB is a free game with a $0 entry price point and with that being said, a lot of people trying to find something new to play could look at this game and go "oh neat" but when they spawn into a mission district. They're met with Auto Ready and being forced into a mission without even being told the basics.

too bad you didn't argue that autoready should be turned off by default, i would have agreed with you

but oh well

17 minutes ago, Trivirium said:

And to say that there is a right and wrong in this matter is ludicrous because as far as I'm concerned. Tips never hurt anyone, nor did a good tutorial. NOT AN INTRUSIVE ONE. Somehow you can't differentiate from good vs intrusive.

re: reading comprehension of a five year old

if you utilize top level FBI research technology, we can pinpoint

35 minutes ago, Uru! said:

because you believe "but i'm doing this for the greater good"

hold on, enhance that string of text

35 minutes ago, Uru! said:

believe

i never said there was right or wrong, but you have the firm belief that you're right, which is very strongly evidenced by how much shit flinging you do, how much you ignore my posts, dance around any of my arguments, etc.

 

 

i'm happy to keep you on the edge of your seat waiting for my reply though, if you could use some of that energy to argue better then maybe you would have a better case.

 

edit: and since twinkletoes can't manage to get his thoughts straight before he hits the big "Send" button:

17 minutes ago, Trivirium said:

P.S. Statistics shown only on steam probably don't count for everyone else who uses the G1 launcher or the likes, kinda hard to take anything from a bias prospective of just one source. Albeit an uneducated one at that, hence a lot of the negative reviews being about either the toxicity of the community (a valid claim) or the P2W stigma which is false to a degree. 

do you think that's possibly why i mentioned that game journalists and youtubers alike also share a huge disdain for the game? golly it's almost like you.... completely ignored what i said!

17 minutes ago, Trivirium said:

Also you make a habit of blowing things out of proportion, like giving players aimbot and whatnot. Idiotic statements that twist points of view into overly negative effects. Noice slippery slope fallacy.

well you seem to be so sure that the tutorial should make unskilled players capable. if a tutorial can't produce skill then that's the only other possible way to help people who can't aim get slaughtered.

aside from better matchmaking, which was one of my points that you ignored.

17 minutes ago, Trivirium said:

Giving players tips on how to hide behind walls or anything isn't going to hinder or intrude on your precious time. Especially with a big fucking SKIP button if you're so unhappy with it.

you do this weird thing

i've said that situational tips should be tips multiple times

and you echo that

but then you say it should be shoehorned into the tutorial

so which is it chief?

Edited January 31, 2019 by Uru!

[Trivirium 62]

3 minutes ago, Uru! said:

-snip-

You're ultimately arguing against having a better tutorial. I still don't see the point in your argument. 

 

Uninformed, in what way? I have 3K hours. I kinda know what the tutorial tells you to do. 

 

They don't have any pictures telling you where to go or what to do. Though they do give the occasional marker to your mailbox and such. But nothing on how to claim mail, and the likes.

 

It's still text based... idk how you can argue that. You have to learn everything using purely text as a guide to your actions. It's like you think an individual could instantaneously know how to shoota n-tec perfectly after telling them to click left mouse. 

 

So I don't understand how it's a conflicting statement. Rather than just saying it's conflicting please do explain next time.

 

And if you agree in saying there's no right and wrong then why do you continue to undermine my efforts in creating alternate suggestion in letting new players learn how to play?

 

I'm tired of this, you can say you won all you want but as far as I can see there really isn't a winner to be had. All you did was piss and moan about how it's all good as it is and I think the game could benefit from having a more user friendly tutorial. 

 

And having a tip section might be a good idea for situational areas. 

[Uru! 50]

Just now, Trivirium said:

You're ultimately arguing against having a better tutorial. I still don't see the point in your argument.

do you want an example of a game i think has an absolutely terrible tutorial

check "Getamped 2"'s tutorial, a tutorial that forces you to do completely inane things over a long period of time before you can so much as play the practice mode.

i think that APB's tutorial is decent enough. i wouldn't be opposed to making it better, but i believe the majority of your suggestions would do more harm than good.

this is my argument, and for you to continue saying that "I THINK YOU'RE WRONG AND THAT'S THAT" is just not true, if i were acting like that i wouldn't have even considered any of your replies.

3 minutes ago, Trivirium said:

Uninformed, in what way? I have 3K hours. I kinda know what the tutorial tells you to do.

sure, i have a lot of hours too. i also have a lot of hours in other games, but tell me, how does having a lot of hours = knowledge over an area of the game that you only access once or twice in those thousands of hours?

i hardly remembered the tutorial until i did it recently, and i also don't remember the tutorial for MW:O, warframe, PSO2, smite, or any of the other games i play. because you do it once and forget about it.

5 minutes ago, Trivirium said:

They don't have any pictures telling you where to go or what to do. Though they do give the occasional marker to your mailbox and such. But nothing on how to claim mail, and the likes.

 

It's still text based... idk how you can argue that. You have to learn everything using purely text as a guide to your actions.

too bad you didn't argue adding pictures from the beginning, maybe i would have agreed with you.

oh well.

 

and my point wasn't that the text wasn't text, my point was that it isn't purely "read this", it's also hands-on.

so while you can say "it's text BASED", sure. that wasn't my point.

it is not "entirely text".

then it would be a wiki.

7 minutes ago, Trivirium said:

It's like you think an individual could instantaneously know how to shoota n-tec perfectly after telling them to click left mouse.

follow along with what i say, okay?

recoil control is a skill

that you gain over time

by practicing

you can shoehorn in some recoil tutorial or look online for "ntec recoil control", but the first time you get into a firefight

i highly doubt you'll be able to recreate it perfectly

because it's something that you can do after practicing over time

8 minutes ago, Trivirium said:

And if you agree in saying there's no right and wrong then why do you continue to undermine my efforts in creating alternate suggestion in letting new players learn how to play?

because that is the entire point of discussion?

also, re: my first paragraph

9 minutes ago, Trivirium said:

I'm tired of this, you can say you won all you want but as far as I can see there really isn't a winner to be had. All you did was piss and moan about how it's all good as it is and I think the game could benefit from having a more user friendly tutorial.

re: my first paragraph

9 minutes ago, Trivirium said:

And having a tip section might be a good idea for situational areas. 

thank you for finally agreeing with something i have said

 

i feel like we almost have a breakthrough here, maybe after just another post you can stop treating my opposing viewpoint as a targeted attack (・∀・)ノ

[Trivirium 62]

41 minutes ago, Uru! said:

-snip-

You seem to be more rational the more detail I'm forced to give. 

 

I don't think any tutorial should force anyone to do anything. I think every tutorial should be exit able at any point in the tutorial (If it moves you to a designated area). 

 

I hate Planetside 2's tutorial for this exact reason that you can't leave it and are forced to take it, and it's a little much. 

 

Though the reason I figure most forget the tutorial is because they know what the tutorial taught them and built on that, which is fine and should be what happens, I just think rather than live fire situations there might be ways to inform players what to look for or do when doing said basics, as per mini example clips or even photo's of potential mission targets.

 

For example, recoil control is taught through experience, it would help to have a TIP on recoil control with the N-Tec as an example in recoil control/bloom control, in maybe an accessible "in-game tips" section. 

 

Now I haven't said anywhere how one would get a better tutorial, but as I said earlier a suggestion is maybe a mini video clips of completing various objectives in the tutorial (mission stages such as windows and cars, how to adjust symbol shape and size, layering and ect.) Quality of life things like that so people know what to look for when they see the "STEAL" marker over what looks to be a plain ol' window or if they're caught wondering what all the tiny little buttons are in the symbol designer.

 

Things like this IMO could help the already existing tutorial to MAKE it better, not to entirely revamp it. 

 

I still think maybe a practice range to help with recoil management would be nice. Though that's development time and server power to run instances dedicated to only testing/practice.

 

[Mitne 724]

Em...

TL:DR

It's fault of playerbase, not tutorial that players are quitting.