Improved Rifling changes reverted ?

[Bhqk 0]

Hey,

Am I the only one who got surprised today when i have logged-in in apb today to see that the current Improved Rifling description is the old one ?
We played yesterday with a friend and I was trying the new Improved Rifling changes and that was pretty nice, but today it's again the old version of it...
 

[Acornie 490]

On PC?

[Bhqk 0]

yes on PC

[SpeedyCat 106]

27 minutes ago, Bhqk said:

Hey,

Am I the only one who got surprised today when i have logged-in in apb today to see that the current Improved Rifling description is the old one ?
We played yesterday with a friend and I was trying the new Improved Rifling changes and that was pretty nice, but today it's again the old version of it...
 

Hope you are right... if so i will partey hard. *praying*

I must check later and if its happened i will do a giveaway on end of the month.

 

[Bhqk 0]

a GM was online this afternoon, i asked him but i guess he didnt understand the question so

[Dopefish 248]

If you use any of the configs that show the the end stage as part of the mission name, they're usually using old localization files with the old mod descriptions in them.

[Bhqk 0]

i'm using one but yesterday I saw the new description and I even tried on a teammate.
Yesterday i could kill with 5 shoots at 79meters with Obeya IR2 with the new IR and today I need 6 shoots at this range with IR2.

[DouglasFalcon 125]

4 minutes ago, Dopefish said:

If you use any of the configs that show the the end stage as part of the mission name, they're usually using old localization files with the old mod descriptions in them.

Wait, what? Can you please elaborate more?

[Bhqk 0]

maybe i'm just crazy but if anyone else could tell if he thinks so or not would be nice

[Acornie 490]

I usually avoid accusing people of insanity but in this case I think I may have some bad news: you have the big crazy

(Taken literally 2 minutes ago)

[Bhqk 0]

aha, well I dont get it

[JeremyKyle 2]

Configs can be used to gain an unfair advantage against a clueless opponent, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Bhqk 0]

i am on drugs then

[Frosi 722]

If you're using old localizations files such as those used to have the last stage for missions displayed in the mission names then there is a very high chance that the file with the mod name and description is also one from before the IR change which means that the description will not line up with what the mod actually does.

[Dopefish 248]

1 hour ago, DouglasFalcon said:

Wait, what? Can you please elaborate more?

Like Frosi said. There's config packs that use the localization files for APB to change the name of missions, so instead of saying "Dr. Borious's Snake Oil", it says something like "Stage 1 / 5 [Ends in VIP]". The thing with those config packs are that they're using localization files from before the patch, so they will also have the old description for the mod.

[GhosT 1301]

Wonder what downside they'll do this time if they decide to revert it.

[Frosi 722]

7 hours ago, GhosT said:

Wonder what downside they'll do this time if they decide to revert it.

I ask myself this quite a lot because something definitely needs to be done since the mod is completely dead since the change. Funnily enough everytime I think about a new downside it just ends up with the same thing which is me realizing how increasing max bloom is the downside that just makes the most sense, especially because some of the preset guns were built with IR in mind such as the Atac Patroller. I'd really like them to go back to what it originally did and work on that downside, making it so it increases Bloom far more would be an option, alternatively, if they wanted to go back to their original reasoning for changing it they could make it so the current rate of fire decrease is there but ONLY for burst rifles. Having two different downsides depending on the weapon type wouldn't be something new as the same logic is already applied for Cooling Jacket on Shotguns. Edited September 24, 2018 by Frosi

[Dopefish 248]

36 minutes ago, Frosi said:

I ask myself this quite a lot because something definitely needs to be done since the mod is completely dead since the change. Funnily enough everytime I think about a new downside it just ends up with the same thing which is me realizing how increasing max bloom is the downside that just makes the most sense

I believe the new version is good, and people only need to get used to that the mod being a tradeoff rather than a straight upgrade. Max bloom was completely insignificant for every weapon except the ones that you'd be going fully automatic with on range.

[yaepes 13]

10 hours ago, Bhqk said:

Yesterday i could kill with 5 shoots at 79meters with Obeya IR2 with the new IR and today I need 6 shoots at this range with IR2.

I hate when my eyes close ansfgjkeajmkflsafgçlk see.

[Ketog 1032]

Deleted

Edited September 24, 2018 by Ketog

[Frosi 722]

12 hours ago, Dopefish said:

12 hours ago, Frosi said:

I ask myself this quite a lot because something definitely needs to be done since the mod is completely dead since the change. Funnily enough everytime I think about a new downside it just ends up with the same thing which is me realizing how increasing max bloom is the downside that just makes the most sense

I believe the new version is good, and people only need to get used to that the mod being a tradeoff rather than a straight upgrade. Max bloom was completely insignificant for every weapon except the ones that you'd be going fully automatic with on range.

Mid to long range in APB was always about versatility and as it stands right now weapons that relied on IR3 are average at best now. The N-tec while still an insanely good weapon is getting outclassed on range now due to the meta shifting to CJ2/3 Obeya when it comes to range, making the Obeya while argueably a little worse in CQC the flat out better gun for pretty much every situation as it does everything the N-tec did before the IR change. IR on Live is currently a dead mod, you barely ever see it being used anymore, making it a second Heavy Barrel which means that its only useful on less than a hand full of guns, leaving Cooling Jacket as the only viable Red mod in the game. I agree that on some weapons it didn't have a downside because they typically weren't being bloomed out a whole lot or not at all. However, I am personally never saw IR as a broken modification, even if some guns weren't affected by its downside, it's always been like this for almost a decade at this point and I've rarely ever saw people complain about it.

The change they did to it now where IR3 gives 15% increase in range +3 meters on top of that only makes the mod even more confusing, go and ask a random max rank gold that you've never seen before and ask him what the effective range of the OBIR is, he will not be able to tell you because it isn't explained in the game properly.

All in all, rebalancing the mod because its downside was not affecting all guns left many other guns crippled and changed the meta in a very stale way because the way it is right now the past 3 ranged meta weapons were cut down to one, going from N-tec, OBIR, Obeya CR-762 to just the Obeya CR-762. While the other two guns are still somewhat effective they are far less versatile which makes them not really all that viable in the Meta anymore. 

Meta changes are good, however, changing a modification has a massive impact compared to changing the values of a single gun. Basically all guns that have IR3 as a preslotted modification such as the ATAC Patroller, Obir Vladivostok, CSG PR1/2 are all effectively useless now, the trade off that IR3 provides is simply not worth it as any increase in TTK in APB is undesirable. Edited September 24, 2018 by Frosi

[Dopefish 248]

2 hours ago, Frosi said:

Mid to long range in APB was always about versatility and as it stands right now weapons that relied on IR3 are average at best now.

Weapons shouldn't rely on mods to be good, and like I've said before, mods shouldn't be upgrades to weapons, but rather a tradeoff to make them more focused on a niche. If a weapon is bad without the mod, then that's a problem with the weapon balance, and not the mod itself. Unslotted weapons should be as viable as modded ones, but having weapons slots allows you to tweak a weapon more to your liking.
 

2 hours ago, Frosi said:

The N-tec while still an insanely good weapon is getting outclassed on range now due to the meta shifting to CJ2/3 Obeya when it comes to range, making the Obeya while argueably a little worse in CQC the flat out better gun for pretty much every situation as it does everything the N-tec did before the IR change.

The IR changes were for the exact reason of making more weapons viable, and if a single weapon is no longer the dominant choice, that just justifies the change. Obeya doesn't compare to N-TEC for short-mid range, and likewise N-TEC now justly doesn't compare to the Obeya at mid-long range. That is, if you don't trade its short range effectiveness for a longer range with Improved Rifling.
 

2 hours ago, Frosi said:

IR on Live is currently a dead mod, you barely ever see it being used anymore, making it a second Heavy Barrel which means that its only useful on less than a hand full of guns, leaving Cooling Jacket as the only viable Red mod in the game.

It seeing less use is no surprise, since it pretty much didn't have any drawback before, while now it has a drawback that justifies its upside. I expect it will take some time before people getting used to it having an actual downside, and before they get accustomed to the new meta. If Cooling Jacket is the dominant choice, that might need further adjustment aswell, and the same goes for Heavy Barrel which might not have enough of an effect. It could also be that weapons need further tweaking as to have their stats closer the line where the mods start affecting them.
 

2 hours ago, Frosi said:

The change they did to it now where IR3 gives 15% increase in range +3 meters on top of that only makes the mod even more confusing, go and ask a random max rank gold that you've never seen before and ask him what the effective range of the OBIR is, he will not be able to tell you because it isn't explained in the game properly.

This argument doesn't make it any difference for how Improved Rifling were before. Weapon stats should be displayed in the game similar to how APB Vault show them, so that you can clearly see what and how much a mod affects a weapon. But until then you could simply take 10% whatever range, then add half of that ontop, and sum it up with the extra 3m range. I don't expect everyone to know all the ranges in their head, nor being able to do simple math, but there's always APB Vault to help people figuring those things out, until it's actually represented in the game.

Either way, that's not as much critique for the mod itself, as it is for how unintuitive APB is.
 

2 hours ago, Frosi said:

All in all, rebalancing the mod because its downside was not affecting all guns left many other guns crippled and changed the meta in a very stale way because the way it is right now the past 3 ranged meta weapons were cut down to one, going from N-tec, OBIR, Obeya CR-762 to just the Obeya CR-762. While the other two guns are still somewhat effective they are far less versatile which makes them not really all that viable in the Meta anymore.

I've heard Obeya sees alot more usage now, but I'm not sure why you'd think it being comparable when it comes to short range? OBIR didn't see much usage before other than by quickswitchers, and if Obeya is being used more often than N-TEC now, that's still an improvement in the meta. The rifle range tweaks would further solidify this, but if Obeya becomes the dominant choice for rifles, then there might be more weapon balancing needed.

I think you and I look at this from different perspectives. You're used to the weapons pretty much being the same for half a decade, and seemingly see these changes as making the weapons behave worse than you are used to. I'm thinking about how to make more weapons become viable, aswell as the game being more fair towards new players.

It seems alot of the APB community are being conservative when it comes to changes to the game, since alot of those changes have been bad in the past, and then never touched again. I believe this is an ongoing effort for overall improvement of the game, which is required if the game will have any hope of surviving. I don't think everything is perfect right now (far from it), but I do think the IR changes are a step in the right direction.

[Clandestine 390]

On 9/23/2018 at 9:00 PM, Bhqk said:

a GM was online this afternoon, i asked him but i guess he didnt understand the question so

I asked GM about changes when those prototype districts went live. He had 0 idea. I think that they're there just to make it look like some "gm" without ban powers is hanging around.

[Frosi 722]

11 minutes ago, Dopefish said:

The IR changes were for the exact reason of making more weapons viable, and if a single weapon is no longer the dominant choice, that just justifies the change. Obeya doesn't compare to N-TEC for short-mid range, and likewise N-TEC now justly doesn't compare to the Obeya at mid-long range. That is, if you don't trade its short range effectiveness for a longer range with Improved Rifling.

This didn't really make more guns viable but the complete opposite. The Meta shifted from three ranged guns to one because of the other two now getting outclassed by the Obeya.

14 minutes ago, Dopefish said:

I've heard Obeya sees alot more usage now, but I'm not sure why you'd think it being comparable when it comes to short range?

The Obeya and N-tec in CQC play the exact same way if you ignore that one is fully automatic and the other is semi-automatic. Before it wasn't as much of an issue because most people would use IR3 on the Obeya but now that people are using CJ2/3 it has become basically what the N-tec is with less killing potential when multiple targets are present. The Obeya's accuracy when tapping fast is still very accurate just like the N-tec was with IR3, you can somewhat decently hipfire it even with HS3 and on top of that it's jumping accuracy is insane so people can still "Jump and lean" with the gun.

20 minutes ago, Dopefish said:

OBIR didn't see much usage before other than by quickswitchers

The OBIR was incredibly powerful and was used a lot amongst top tier players because it is arguably the best support weapon in the game, or at least was before the IR change which now forces the gun to be either played really defensively as you can not effectively take on targets by your own. Now if you take IR off it you can take on targets a little easier but lose a lot of your range which then makes you go, why should I use this if the Obeya kills me far faster and on top of that has about the same range?
 

25 minutes ago, Dopefish said:

I think you and I look at this from different perspectives. You're used to the weapons pretty much being the same for half a decade, and seemingly see these changes as making the weapons behave worse than you are used to. I'm thinking about how to make more weapons become viable, aswell as the game being more fair towards new players.

I definitely agree, we have different opinions on how guns and mods should perform with or without them. I've played APB long enough and went through many meta changes but as it stands right now there is a hand full of guns that are actually of use on the higher level of play because reducing the viability of IR made a lot of guns perform worse and then get overshadowed by another gun simply because they don't have the flexibility when it comes to mods as the gun that overshadows them - Obir / Obeya is a perfect example for this. 

I just think at this point it will be hard to completely change mods and how they work as it'll piss off a lot of players, especially the veterans.

33 minutes ago, Dopefish said:

It seems alot of the APB community are being conservative when it comes to changes to the game, since alot of those changes have been bad in the past, and then never touched again. I believe this is an ongoing effort for overall improvement of the game, which is required if the game will have any hope of surviving. I don't think everything is perfect right now (far from it), but I do think the IR changes are a step in the right direction.

I want changes for sure, the meta has been dominated by ranged weapons for too long, however, I believe that they need a team of dedicated players to give them proper feedback on weapon changes before pushing things to live and then also have a team of more casual players that are also willing to give proper feedback. There should be a fair balance between balancing things around average players and also highly skilled players. 

There are things in the game that are "easier" to balance that weapons such as missions, namely 4-5 minute Scavenger missions or missions that require you to raid and deliver 2 heavy items in the same stage.

[foolish ninja 59]

i think the IR before was better and less complicated. the percentage range increase is... useless on some weapons and offers less diversity.
I like the downside tho. It was a good change!