1-19-6 Weapon Prototype District Changes

[skerblerd 24]

Just now, Keshi said:

6 minutes ago, :^) said:

Nerfing accuracy is always the worst way to go about weapon balancing imo

or maybe it would make some guns actually more challenging to use

Yea fighting RNG is a challenge for sure

[vsb 6171]

1 minute ago, Keshi said:

or maybe it would make some guns actually more challenging to use

rng =/= challenge

aiming and tracking a moving player is a challenge, rng is an artificial barrier that punishes players regardless of how well they play

[Too_many_snowflakes 80]

Good to hear more progress is being made. 

[Siamsol 31]

7 hours ago, BXNNXD said:

rng =/= challenge

aiming and tracking a moving player is a challenge, rng is an artificial barrier that punishes players regardless of how well they play

True. If a gun's usage comes down to random chance, high skilled players just don't use it. Why gamble when you're utilizing skill? That's why the SHAW and M-1922 don't get much use - even with Muzzle Break, they still jump horizontally so much that it's random chance whether you succeed or not. That isn't fun, so people avoid it.

However, in the case of the N-Tec, it's biggest problem is that it is too accurate (at least for its intended TTK and range, those could be changed instead). Compared to other assault rifles, it has the best effective accuracy. Sure, some AR needs to take the role of "most accurate," but N-Tec surpasses every other AR in terms of accuracy and usability. Making that gap smaller isn't random chance, it's still predictable results that can be counteracted. Can you tap-fire the STAR and manage its spread and bloom? Yes? Then it isn't RNG. Horizontal recoil (SHAW, M-1922) is RNG. If LO tried to make N-Tec balanced by making it recoil insanely hard, then that would be RNG, but that's not the case. Edited September 5, 2018 by Siamsol

[Hexerin 1140]

On 9/3/2018 at 4:59 AM, LO_Beastie said:

Strife Test A - Total Damage increased to 931, 2-shot pellet count reduced to 11 from 9 (Reduces Pellet Scale to 0.926 from 0.933).

Either your wording is unnecessarily confusing, or you've committed a typo here.

  Edited September 5, 2018 by Hexerin

[Zipen 20]

The strife needs some love

[Nitronik 348]

On 9/5/2018 at 2:28 AM, Hexerin said:

Either your wording is unnecessarily confusing, or you've committed a typo here.

 

The Strife has as many pellets as the CSG, hence why a change so small still lets you have such a great compounding effect

[Hexerin 1140]

29 minutes ago, Nitronik said:

The Strife has as many pellets as the CSG, hence why a change so small still lets you have such a great compounding effect

Re-read what he posted. It makes no sense, the math doesn't work. The assumption one would make is it's a typo, that he meant "to 9 from 11".

[Nite 261]

55 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

The assumption one would make is it's a typo, that he meant "to 9 from 11".

For clarity it should read "increased to 11 from 9" (so you need to land more pellets than before to kill in two shots).

[skerblerd 24]

On 9/4/2018 at 11:41 AM, BXNNXD said:

rng =/= challenge

aiming and tracking a moving player is a challenge, rng is an artificial barrier that punishes players regardless of how well they play

Or rewards players for using a gun at a range they shouldn't be. Overall just makes the game more frustrating to play for everyone when base accuracy gets nerfed instead of drop-off when a gun is deemed too effective at longer ranges. 

[Percocet 194]

On 9/4/2018 at 9:28 AM, :^) said:

Nerfing accuracy is always the worst way to go about weapon balancing imo

rng is not balance +1, also cant really do across the board weapon changes when we have weird guns placed at ranges much farther than any other gun in that class, we have too many niche weapons in alot of the classes of weapons that are supposed to perform differently from the main counterparts to not balance individually Edited September 6, 2018 by Percocet

[Revoluzzer 274]

On 9/3/2018 at 10:32 PM, GhosT said:

I don't know where you got that from. Especially the part that every other SMG was overshadowing the OCA.

That's just plain wrong, the OCA has always been the best SMG (except for the time the VAS-C2 arrived).

Can't you just revert the last OCA changes G1 did? It was absolutely fine and perfectly comparable to all the other SMGs except the norsemen.
I don't understand why you want to go through the trouble trying to rebalance it, when it was perfectly fine.

The PMG was, for the longest time, superior to the OCA. But the PMG was too powerful then, not the OCA too weak.
 

On 9/4/2018 at 6:35 PM, :^) said:

I don't know where you got that from. Especially the part that every other SMG was overshadowing the OCA.

That's just plain wrong, the OCA has always been the best SMG (except for the time the VAS-C2 arrived).

Can't you just revert the last OCA changes G1 did? It was absolutely fine and perfectly comparable to all the other SMGs except the norsemen.
I don't understand why you want to go through the trouble trying to rebalance it, when it was perfectly fine.

Generally speaking, a lack of accuracy should only be RNG when you're outside your ideal range. Edited September 7, 2018 by Revoluzzer

[kukki 27]

8 hours ago, Revoluzzer said:

 

 

Generally speaking, a lack of accuracy should only be RNG when you're outside your ideal range.

Wrong quote, comrade.
As for accuracy/DMG drop-off discussion, here are my 2 cents. This game simulates a (let's say) 1km span in 100m, that's reducing realistic weapon ranges by 10x. Of course that's far from accurate and applies less to some weapons, more to others, but for the sake of the argument, let's let it slide. 
Reducing realistic ranges by the huge 10x amount make it extremely difficult to set correct ranges for guns in relation to other ones. We can see examples of this with the infamous Ntec contending with semi auto sniper rifles and being the most reliable choice within its own role of assault rifles. And now, imo, shotguns being the Ntec of CQC. 
I still think the best solution is getting the right damage and damage drop-off numbers, that's my Ockam's razor of seeing the situation. I'm not opposed to idea that messing with any other stats could have a preferable outcome, I just think that doing this right being as hard as it is, more complicated solutions are less likely to work and more likely to cause more elaborate new issues.

[Yukate 13]

You know you broke DOW "Thumper". It's like a Ogre w/o timer.

[CookiePuss 5379]

26 minutes ago, Yukate said:

You know you broke DOW "Thumper". It's like a Ogre w/o timer.

There is so much wrong with this statement, I don't even know where to begin.

[Siamsol 31]

On 9/7/2018 at 6:08 PM, CookiePuss said:

On 9/7/2018 at 5:41 PM, Yukate said:

You know you broke DOW "Thumper". It's like a Ogre w/o timer.

There is so much wrong with this statement, I don't even know where to begin.

Yeah, it's stupid to compare the Ogre to the Thumper. Ogre 4-shots (since 3-STK never happens anyway) at 0.60s, just like the Thumper's 0.60s. Except the Thumper gets tighter spread, increased effective range, better effects from the 'shotgun consistency' changes, and an optional mode for even tighter spread (which isn't even necessary, since the 'consistency' changes made hipfire more effective - you only need to land a few pellets anyway).

How dare they compare the shitty Ogre to the ridiculously overpowered Thumper!

Inb4 "How come I never see people with Thumpers then, only Shredders?"


---Edit: "Ogre 3-shots (since 2-STK never happens anyway)" changed to "Ogre 4-shots (since 3-STK never happens anyway)"
---Cookie helped me realize I typed the wrong numbers by 1. Silly accident. Edited September 11, 2018 by Siamsol

[CookiePuss 5379]

15 minutes ago, Siamsol said:

Yeah, it's stupid to compare the Ogre to the Thumper. Ogre 3-shots (since 2-STK never happens anyway) at 0.60s, just like the Thumper's 0.60s. Except the Thumper gets tighter spread, increased effective range, better effects from the 'shotgun consistency' changes, and an optional mode for even tighter spread (which isn't even necessary, since the 'consistency' changes made hipfire more effective - you only need to land a few pellets anyway).

How dare they compare the shitty Ogre to the ridiculously overpowered Thumper!

Inb4 "How come I never see people with Thumpers then, only Shredders?"

Are you trolling me? 

You know why the Ogre never 2 shots?
Because its a 3 stk. 
And its a .99 ttk, not .6

Please tell me Im just missing your sarcasm or something. 

[Siamsol 31]

On 9/9/2018 at 5:08 PM, CookiePuss said:

Are you trolling me?

You know why the Ogre never 2 shots?
Because its a 3 stk.
And its a .99 ttk, not .6

Please tell me Im just missing your sarcasm or something.

Sorry, I was going off memory. I always use fragile, and I might have confused it with the Thumper's damage values. Thumper can 2-shot fragile.

And the post you literally quoted said "It's like a Ogre w/o timer."

Wind-up time is 0.59s, the 0.99s TTK factors in the wind-up time. And that person clearly said without the wind-up time. That was the comparison they were making. Edited September 11, 2018 by Siamsol

[CookiePuss 5379]

19 minutes ago, Siamsol said:

Sorry, I was going off memory. I always use fragile, and I might have confused it with the Thumper's damage values. Thumper can 2-shot fragile.

And the post you literally quoted said "It's like a Ogre w/o timer."

Wind-up time is 0.59s, the 0.99s TTK factors in the wind-up time. And that person clearly said without the wind-up time. That was the comparison they were making.

Yeah... but its not.
.4 vs .6 and completely different spread and range

[Siamsol 31]

2 minutes ago, CookiePuss said:

Yeah... but its not.
.4 vs .6 and completely different spread and range

Okay now I realize where I messed up. I was trying to compare them both at 0.60s TTK. Off-by-one error. I meant to say that 3-STK never happens, and that Ogre/NFAS is usually 4-STK. I'm stupid, I completely forgot what I was thinking when I posted those numbers. Whoops.

So yeah, Ogre normally takes an extra shot from it's statistical STK, which is why I compared it to the Thumper's (much easier to achieve) 0.60s TTK.

But yeah, my sarcastic tirade was meant to mock them for saying the Thumper is like an Ogre without a timer, because the Thumper is much, much, much better than the Ogre in nearly every way, except being semi-auto. Ogre is balanced, Thumper is not. Calling the Thumper an Ogre++ is just silly.

[zerosoul1 0]

Nerfing guns min accuracy is the dumbest idea ever. Dropoff ranges already feels off, unrealistic and smart for some guns but you can at least outaim your opponents with skill. RNG bullets FTW!

[jarko 43]

On 9/3/2018 at 7:59 AM, LO_Beastie said:

 

Assault Rifles
ATAC & FAR 'Spearhead' are in need of a tweak still since the recovery delay doesn't seem to be an handicap during a fight within 35 meters.


NTEC
<<It makes the choice of blue mod more interesting, / It also decreases jumping accuracy to 18 (from 12) to see if we can reduce jumping spray at close ranges a little. / We also reduced ammo in the weapon to 28. >>

Instead of 32/128 we will be decreased at 30/120 for a slightly increase in the fire-interval i honestly prefer this one overall the idea of Test B. Even tho the jumping accuracy seems to be limiting the attempt to jumping spray as mentionned but the con that i don't like is the fact that you're reducing the capacity to 28/112 instead of giving in Test B another alternative as a consequence. Unless the idea is to have more variant then i'd say throw Test B inbound and see how many peoples will variate their weapon's choice while deciding for a assault rifle.

Rifles
Increased the effective range of non-carbine Rifles by 5m, 

The obir wasn't satisfying enough as it was now its gonna gain a buff of 5m in effective range? Seems like this ain't gonna fit.  << This is also important as a lot of rifles were relying on Rifling to make them valid for long distance engagements, and we're moving Rifling to be more of a trade-off than it was. >> Why not just block the capacity to equip improved rifling on these specific weapons instead..?


Shotguns

Well done nothing to complain about that is perfectly fine.

OCA

Its barely noticeable and not needed.


Make the Dropoff Range 20m
Min Damage Range 45m
Max Range 50m
Keep the same percentage for min damage.

Like period the oca needs to be potato above 50m.


This is noticeable tho..