Proof Shredder Is Imbalanced

[Noob_Guardian 417]

7 minutes ago, Fortune Runner said:

13 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

Depends, is it going to have the same niche but actually remain balanced with its reverted ttk or are they going to nerf it to the ground because people whining that a shotgun shouldn't hit 20-30m with IR3 increasing its ttk to ~1s+?

I don't know either but testing in both districts matters so that we find out what's best  right?

dunno is OTW still up or was that switched to the normal client now? Still kinda hard to test because if its the normal client one, i hopped on and only saw one guy on last, but i havnt been on APB since Thursday due to a few other games popping up that I wanted to play, and I don't play on weekends much if at all.

[TheJellyGoo 343]

8 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

Decrease the pellet overkill and put base ttk to .85 which pushes IR3 to ~93-1s and yes it's then balanced. Got no reason to complain if the weapon hits a rough 1.2s ttk at 30m.
All shotguns melt cars.
Most people dont run MP on shredder, and quite frankly its not even worth using on most guns. EM3 is far more beneficial.
 

Overkill and ttk are the variables I would start with too. Need to be careful though it shouldn't be to potent in cq but still do it's job as the midrangish. 
For ease of use it should obviously be weaker than all competing guns in it's ranges.

Btw. CSG hits cars like a wet noodle.

[Noob_Guardian 417]

15 hours ago, TheJellyGoo said:

Overkill and ttk are the variables I would start with too. Need to be careful though it shouldn't be to potent in cq but still do it's job as the midrangish. 
For ease of use it should obviously be weaker than all competing guns in it's ranges.

Btw. CSG hits cars like a wet noodle.

Well I would start with them because those are the 2 things that were majorly effected with the shredder changes. I used to 3 hit at 25m before the buff, but it was harder and often took 4-5 hits due to bloom (i got the preset ir3 variant which is rather balanced due to its high ttk in comparison to cj3). TTK got decreased when it got buffed, and then the pellet overkill damage topped it off. Putting its TTK back where it was before would rebalance the cqc aspect, and the overkill would effect the further range aspect therefor more effectively balancing it within its niche, even with cj since it effects bloom with less overkill it wouldn't be near as strong as it is now. If further needed you could change the overkill a little more until it feels as balanced as needed within the ttk limits, which if you use IR3 with the TTK increase, would cause almost a 1s ttk for ~30m, but that would be if the overkill damage didn't cause it to 4-5 hit if you missed.

I'm used to using jg, but csg still takes almost 8? shots to destroy a car almost right? JG takes like 5 or 6 I think.

[Darkzero3802 611]

On 9/3/2018 at 1:55 PM, Basih said:

More importantly... what is that song? It's stuck in my head now 

Burn It Down - Linkin Park

[Virgil 55]

On 9/4/2018 at 8:55 PM, Noob_Guardian said:

Wait, because it's full auto? Even if it was semi auto it'd STILL be doing the same shit what nonsense are you talking about. CSG MELTS players atm, Strife litterally 2 shots 90% of the time and melts EVERYTHING, JG melts in CQC. All shotguns melt in CQC, the difference is, one is full auto, reloads at 8x the speed, has a pretty close TTK, and 3x the distance, maybe more. A gun melting has nothing to do with its semi/full auto. It makes a difference for gameplay when you can hold down left mouse and pre-fire walking around a corner, you must be one of those people who is low gold borderline silver, because your post here is not describing what the game is like for any of the people i play with. It has to do with accuracy and ROF. ROF needs reverted on shredder that WILL balance it. Further decrease its overkill with pellet damage and it stops being so effective at 20-30m, thus fixing most of the issue there and putting it where it should have been originally in effectiveness.
Okay, so we agree, nice.

Wouldnt know about instant reload, i got the preset one that's *cough* actually balanced in comparison. In all honesty though I played the shredder as if it WAS semi auto and tap fired because i didn't realize it was full auto for almost a year of having it xD

Destroying vehicles is necessary? Destroying cars doesnt even level up the weapon role, and if you're like me, you don't even bother firing at vehicles unless they are A. Empty Car spawns or B. Car spawns after you teamwiped. If I do end up needing to destroy cars i go alig or osmaw/volcano, because they are actually effective for that in the needed situations far more than shredder. The only other times i shoot a vehicle is when I choose to damage it enough to make the guy hop out to kill em for the weapon role. When i play the game, 90% of people sit in their car until they are at an advantage. If you don't destroy a car, you have to deal with car spawners, pioneer pathway blockages, and people just sitting there staring at you until teammates arrive. Thats the way good people play the game, "car gameplay". SP3 Pioneer/espacios with car spawner or radar, why would you do anything else? "I don't destroy cars with this gun, so the fact it destroys vehicles doesn't mean anything" That's just playing the ostrich, and those guns being more effective is very situational.

Decreasing the pellet overkill from the shotgun buff, and reverting its TTK (increasing it) would effectively put the shredder back in a similar place where it had been before it became "overpowered" through its buff but still be stronger than it had been by actually being effective still, which is what i've been suggesting be done so it doesn't go to "never touch again because COBRA (prebuff) useless." That isn't "trolling", and i've owned the shredder for years and used it a bunch so i know what i'm talking about. I don't want anything nerfed into oblivion, my ideal version of balance is 2012 with a buffed DMR/PMG so every gun is actually viable.

 

Havn't seen anything about hosting an event on Jericho, and most of the time Jericho is dead for the OTW, Last I logged in there were like 3 people on, the time before that 7, before that ~18.
 

Depends, is it going to have the same niche but actually remain balanced with its reverted ttk or are they going to nerf it to the ground because people whining that a shotgun shouldn't hit 20-30m with IR3 increasing its ttk to ~1s+?

Edited September 6, 2018 by Virgil

[Siamsol 31]

I'm starting to feel like LO is just waiting for the Shredder negativity to blow over. We're transitioning from waiting weeks for a fix to waiting for months soon. By the time they push out their paltry rate-of-fire nerf, we will have to wait another couple months for them to touch its range or pellet-scaling. That is, if they even listen to us then, because they're clearly not listening now. I'll say it again: they want to make CSG and JG less consistent, but haven't even tried to change Shredder consistency yet. Priorities, eh?

Looks like I won't be playing APB for a couple more months. Such a shame, I was happy to see servers working properly(ish) and a larger playerbase, but LO is just driving people away anyway.

[notHunky 32]

2 hours ago, Siamsol said:

I'm starting to feel like LO is just waiting for the Shredder negativity to blow over. We're transitioning from waiting weeks for a fix to waiting for months soon. By the time they push out their paltry rate-of-fire nerf, we will have to wait another couple months for them to touch its range or pellet-scaling. That is, if they even listen to us then, because they're clearly not listening now. I'll say it again: they want to make CSG and JG less consistent, but haven't even tried to change Shredder consistency yet. Priorities, eh?

Looks like I won't be playing APB for a couple more months. Such a shame, I was happy to see servers working properly(ish) and a larger playerbase, but LO is just driving people away anyway.

I like how when I point out that some Armas items are borderline overpowered, the general response was “lol get gud”. Yet when my favorite weapon goes from being mediocre garbage to absolutely destroying everything within 25 meters, everyone  collectively loses their mind and forgets about all the other weapons which will easily destroy the Shredder at any range past 40 meters or within hugging distance.

If you can beat an ATAC user, then you can kill a Shredder. They basically play the same way. “Lol get gud”. Edited September 9, 2018 by notHunky

[CookiePuss 5378]

2 hours ago, notHunky said:

some Armas items are borderline overpowered

this will always get hate, simply because it is untrue
 

[notHunky 32]

8 hours ago, CookiePuss said:

this will always get hate, simply because it is untrue
 

Says the person who constantly reminds us about the Shredder (an armas item) being too strong. Edited September 10, 2018 by notHunky

[TheJellyGoo 343]

12 hours ago, notHunky said:

I like how when I point out that some Armas items are borderline overpowered, the general response was “lol get gud”. Yet when my favorite weapon goes from being mediocre garbage to absolutely destroying everything within 25 meters, everyone  collectively loses their mind and forgets about all the other weapons which will easily destroy the Shredder at any range past 40 meters or within hugging distance.

If you can beat an ATAC user, then you can kill a Shredder. They basically play the same way. “Lol get gud”.

Yeah, really weird... almost as if the majority disagrees with you for a reason. Crazy odd since you must obviously be right in your thinking. Edited September 10, 2018 by TheJellyGoo

[CookiePuss 5378]

3 hours ago, notHunky said:

Says the person who constantly reminds us about the Shredder (an armas item) being too strong.

Wanna know how I know its too strong?
Little thing called the Joker Store.

[ShadesofGrey 10]

3 hours ago, CookiePuss said:

Wanna know how I know its too strong?
Little thing called the Joker Store.

So it's only too strong, because people that aren't paying for it can get it.

You LITERALLY JUST SAID...

THAT PAYING FOR ARMAS ITEMS...

SHOULD, AND DO...

GIVE ADVANTAGE.

Wow, the self-delusion.

[TheJellyGoo 343]

3 minutes ago, ShadesofGrey said:

So it's only too strong, because people that aren't paying for it can get it.
You LITERALLY JUST SAID...
THAT PAYING FOR ARMAS ITEMS...
SHOULD, AND DO...
GIVE ADVANTAGE
Wow, the self-delusion.

No, what he said is that he didn't need to buy it over Armas to test it since he could lease it over the Joker Store.

[ShadesofGrey 10]

13 minutes ago, TheJellyGoo said:

20 minutes ago, ShadesofGrey said:

So it's only too strong, because people that aren't paying for it can get it.
You LITERALLY JUST SAID...
THAT PAYING FOR ARMAS ITEMS...
SHOULD, AND DO...
GIVE ADVANTAGE
Wow, the self-delusion.

No, what he said is that he didn't need to buy it over Armas to test it since he could lease it over the Joker Store.

That's strawmanning the argument trying to shove it somewhere that wasn't even the point.

He says armas items aren't "some Armas items are borderline overpowered". He states that comment is always going to get hate because it's untrue. (Outside of the Yukon existing at one point by raw statistics proving him wrong... Unless he doesn't classify Joker Box weapons as Armas Weapons?)

Then, he says the Shredder is overpowered because non-paying members of the game can achieve it through the Joker Store. 

This means that it's power is fine where it's at, so long as you are PAYING FOR IT OVER ARMAS, but NOT IF YOU CAN GET IT FROM THE JOKER STORE.

The Joker Store is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT unless attempting to state it's only overpowered BECAUSE you can get it from the Joker Store. Which he/she does.
  Edited September 10, 2018 by ShadesofGrey

[vsb 6171]

45 minutes ago, ShadesofGrey said:

That's strawmanning the argument trying to shove it somewhere that wasn't even the point.

He says armas items aren't "some Armas items are borderline overpowered". He states that comment is always going to get hate because it's untrue. (Outside of the Yukon existing at one point by raw statistics proving him wrong... Unless he doesn't classify Joker Box weapons as Armas Weapons?)

Then, he says the Shredder is overpowered because non-paying members of the game can achieve it through the Joker Store. 

This means that it's power is fine where it's at, so long as you are PAYING FOR IT OVER ARMAS, but NOT IF YOU CAN GET IT FROM THE JOKER STORE.

The Joker Store is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT unless attempting to state it's only overpowered BECAUSE you can get it from the Joker Store. Which he/she does.
 

he’s not arguing that the shredder is too strong he’s arguing against the implication that armas is p2w, since he can buy the “overpowered” shredder from the joker store

[Deftonez 125]

12 hours ago, notHunky said:

Says the person who constantly reminds us about the Shredder (an armas item) being too strong.

the people need to know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Noob_Guardian 417]

On 9/6/2018 at 4:22 PM, Virgil said:

All shotguns melt in CQC, the difference is, one is full auto, reloads at 8x the speed, has a pretty close TTK, and 3x the distance, maybe more. A gun melting has nothing to do with its semi/full auto. It makes a difference for gameplay when you can hold down left mouse and pre-fire walking around a corner, you must be one of those people who is low gold borderline silver, because your post here is not describing what the game is like for any of the people i play with. It has to do with accuracy and ROF. ROF needs reverted on shredder that WILL balance it. Further decrease its overkill with pellet damage and it stops being so effective at 20-30m, thus fixing most of the issue there and putting it where it should have been originally in effectiveness.
Okay, so we agree, nice.

When i play the game, 90% of people sit in their car until they are at an advantage. If you don't destroy a car, you have to deal with car spawners, pioneer pathway blockages, and people just sitting there staring at you until teammates arrive. Thats the way good people play the game, "car gameplay". SP3 Pioneer/espacios with car spawner or radar, why would you do anything else? "I don't destroy cars with this gun, so the fact it destroys vehicles doesn't mean anything" That's just playing the ostrich, and those guns being more effective is very situational.

 don't want anything nerfed into oblivion, my ideal version of balance is 2012 with a buffed DMR/PMG so every gun is actually viable.

You always have to deal with car spawners and pio  radar/spawners. I destroy them as needed, but don't just go around firing at every enemy car in between objectives for kills taking 10-15 extra seconds when i could be at the obj and either defending it already or have completed it. You say people sit in the car until they are at an advantage, yeah you're right! Which is why I don't fire at the car with someone in it unless im at an advantage with a teammate near or know i can take him out. Sure i may have to deal with it later, but i have never actually had a problem with it because they normally respawn them anyways regardless.

I don't have to destroy every enemy vehicle either, car spawners and spawn choices aplenty normally allow enemies who died to just respawn it as soon as they died. Simply standing near it is enough sometimes to prevent enemies from spawning. There's more than one way to play apb at "higher" skill levels, destroying a vehicle is the easiest at times, but i find it more beneficial to block it instead if there's a teamwipe because im often out of grenades so i don't waste the ammo. Works like a charm as well.

Switching to the situational guns on the stages is necessary rather than less effective weapons are important. Yeah a shredder can destroy cars, good job for noticing, but its not going to help much if i'm chasing a car and at a distance against another with a midrange weapon, aligs and osmaws are great for that. By the time you could destroy the car with a shredder, it may be already in the obj spot, or you would of have had to have the luck to close in close enough to begin with. Yes, we both have different ways of playing, that doesnt make either of ours wrong.


You have always played APB differently than me as have other high tier players. What I see isn't what you see, because time differences as well as opp differences and how we handle our opp. I'm sure you've noticed this by now

Theres honestly maybe 3 "clan groups" currently (on crims) that give me a massive problem when playing and ~ 7 crim players even when solo that do as well (whether they are in those  clans or not i couldnt tell you). But I play solo 97% of the time and can often carry or at least hold my own even against clan groups. I won't say i'm "god tier pro", i'm definitely able to pull positive against skilled premades when my team is going completely negative most of the time, even if barely.

  Edited September 10, 2018 by Noob_Guardian

[CookiePuss 5378]

4 hours ago, ShadesofGrey said:

So it's only too strong, because people that aren't paying for it can get it.

You LITERALLY JUST SAID...

THAT PAYING FOR ARMAS ITEMS...

SHOULD, AND DO...

GIVE ADVANTAGE.

Wow, the self-delusion.

 

3 hours ago, ShadesofGrey said:

That's strawmanning the argument trying to shove it somewhere that wasn't even the point.

He says armas items aren't "some Armas items are borderline overpowered". He states that comment is always going to get hate because it's untrue. (Outside of the Yukon existing at one point by raw statistics proving him wrong... Unless he doesn't classify Joker Box weapons as Armas Weapons?)

Then, he says the Shredder is overpowered because non-paying members of the game can achieve it through the Joker Store. 

This means that it's power is fine where it's at, so long as you are PAYING FOR IT OVER ARMAS, but NOT IF YOU CAN GET IT FROM THE JOKER STORE.

The Joker Store is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT unless attempting to state it's only overpowered BECAUSE you can get it from the Joker Store. Which he/she does.
 

Damn son, learn 2 read. 

[Siamsol 31]

On 9/9/2018 at 7:51 PM, notHunky said:

I like how when I point out that some Armas items are borderline overpowered, the general response was “lol get gud”. Yet when my favorite weapon goes from being mediocre garbage to absolutely destroying everything within 25 meters, everyone collectively loses their mind and forgets about all the other weapons which will easily destroy the Shredder at any range past 40 meters or within hugging distance.

If you can beat an ATAC user, then you can kill a Shredder. They basically play the same way. “Lol get gud”.

"Weapons that work at over 40m work better at long-range, compared to a gun that can't work over 40m", more news at 11. Coming up later, N-HVR works better at 90m than PMG, plus ten surprising balance facts that will shock you!

Shredder works well with CJ3 right now. 0.69s TTK. What guns counter it at close range? OCA CJ3 is 0.60s, PMG CJ3 is 0.65s, JG (can't use CJ without ruining it) is 0.68s.

Now consider that the pellet-consistency changes make it so that you can afford to miss pellets and still get a 3-shot kill with Shredder. These guns that could work in "hugging distance" are not afforded this leeway. Miss once with PMG, 0.813s, lose. Miss once with OCA, 0.686s, tied with Shredder. Miss two OCA bullets, you're dead.

So you're saying that it's reasonable to expect people to have absolutely perfect aim AND RNG (because good luck being able to land all OCA shots consistently even at point-blank) to counter an auto-shotgun that can just brainlessly fire in your general direction? That's not what "balance" is.

Oh and the ATAC has a default 0.70s TTK, but CJ3 makes it horrible and you'll miss constantly at max fire-rate. And even without CJ3, good luck landing every shot full-auto at 40m. ATAC is inconsistent as hell, sometimes it melts people, sometimes it starts drooling and misses half of your bullets despite aiming for center mass. So that TTK is only going to creep upwards, while Shredder is still sitting at effortless 0.69s kills.

In what world should an auto-shotgun take zero skill to use and destroy people who don't have completely perfect aim and luck? Sure, you can counter a Shredder with another shotgun, but that's not really a fair comparison, is it? If your best bet to counter a Shredder is to use a JG - and in this pairing, they come out on equal footing in close range - then why should the Shredder also be able to work long-range on top of that, plus being automatic, plus destroying cars faster than the ALIG, and plus being able to lean out of cars with it?

Did you miss the part of game balancing that teaches you about trade-offs? That balanced choices are balanced by an equal gap of pros and cons? Why should the Shredder be a JG but better in every way? And without a single downside? Being better in every way is called one of two things: Overpowered or Pay-2-Win. Or both, really.

[dett2 64]

5 hours ago, Siamsol said:

Shredder works well with CJ3 right now. 0.69s TTK. What guns counter it at close range? OCA CJ3 is 0.60s, PMG CJ3 is 0.65s, JG (can't use CJ without ruining it) is 0.68s.

Now consider that the pellet-consistency changes make it so that you can afford to miss pellets and still get a 3-shot kill with Shredder. These guns that could work in "hugging distance" are not afforded this leeway. Miss once with PMG, 0.813s, lose. Miss once with OCA, 0.686s, tied with Shredder. Miss two OCA bullets, you're dead.

So you're saying that it's reasonable to expect people to have absolutely perfect aim AND RNG (because good luck being able to land all OCA shots consistently even at point-blank) to counter an auto-shotgun that can just brainlessly fire in your general direction? That's not what "balance" is.

yeah , That's i wannt to say.

[Darkzero3802 611]

On 9/10/2018 at 8:24 PM, Siamsol said:

"Weapons that work at over 40m work better at long-range, compared to a gun that can't work over 40m", more news at 11. Coming up later, N-HVR works better at 90m than PMG, plus ten surprising balance facts that will shock you!

Shredder works well with CJ3 right now. 0.69s TTK. What guns counter it at close range? OCA CJ3 is 0.60s, PMG CJ3 is 0.65s, JG (can't use CJ without ruining it) is 0.68s.

Now consider that the pellet-consistency changes make it so that you can afford to miss pellets and still get a 3-shot kill with Shredder. These guns that could work in "hugging distance" are not afforded this leeway. Miss once with PMG, 0.813s, lose. Miss once with OCA, 0.686s, tied with Shredder. Miss two OCA bullets, you're dead.

So you're saying that it's reasonable to expect people to have absolutely perfect aim AND RNG (because good luck being able to land all OCA shots consistently even at point-blank) to counter an auto-shotgun that can just brainlessly fire in your general direction? That's not what "balance" is.

Oh and the ATAC has a default 0.70s TTK, but CJ3 makes it horrible and you'll miss constantly at max fire-rate. And even without CJ3, good luck landing every shot full-auto at 40m. ATAC is inconsistent as hell, sometimes it melts people, sometimes it starts drooling and misses half of your bullets despite aiming for center mass. So that TTK is only going to creep upwards, while Shredder is still sitting at effortless 0.69s kills.

In what world should an auto-shotgun take zero skill to use and destroy people who don't have completely perfect aim and luck? Sure, you can counter a Shredder with another shotgun, but that's not really a fair comparison, is it? If your best bet to counter a Shredder is to use a JG - and in this pairing, they come out on equal footing in close range - then why should the Shredder also be able to work long-range on top of that, plus being automatic, plus destroying cars faster than the ALIG, and plus being able to lean out of cars with it?

Did you miss the part of game balancing that teaches you about trade-offs? That balanced choices are balanced by an equal gap of pros and cons? Why should the Shredder be a JG but better in every way? And without a single downside? Being better in every way is called one of two things: Overpowered or Pay-2-Win. Or both, really.

If any shotgun should have range it would be the JG. Pump action shotties require skill to use (unlike auto shotties) as u cant just fire it off u will always have that fire delay and the opp will have a chance to either run or fire back. Also if the shredder is like this now with the horrid hitreg think how it will be once thats fixed, ull have the TTK alot more and less pellet misses. Ive had dead on shots only partially hit due to this hitreg issue and miss the 3 shot window requiring 4. Id hate to see how balanced things actually are once they register hits properly and im not just talking shotties here i mean all guns. The guns are currently balanced off the broken hitreg system so once things are fixed the guns will behave completely different, you cant balance off of something that isnt working.

TLDR: LO should pause any gun balancing till after they fix the hitreg and see where the guns are on a properly working hitreg system.

[notHunky 32]

On 9/10/2018 at 8:24 PM, Siamsol said:

"Weapons that work at over 40m work better at long-range, compared to a gun that can't work over 40m", more news at 11. Coming up later, N-HVR works better at 90m than PMG, plus ten surprising balance facts that will shock you!

Shredder works well with CJ3 right now. 0.69s TTK. What guns counter it at close range? OCA CJ3 is 0.60s, PMG CJ3 is 0.65s, JG (can't use CJ without ruining it) is 0.68s.

Now consider that the pellet-consistency changes make it so that you can afford to miss pellets and still get a 3-shot kill with Shredder. These guns that could work in "hugging distance" are not afforded this leeway. Miss once with PMG, 0.813s, lose. Miss once with OCA, 0.686s, tied with Shredder. Miss two OCA bullets, you're dead.

So you're saying that it's reasonable to expect people to have absolutely perfect aim AND RNG (because good luck being able to land all OCA shots consistently even at point-blank) to counter an auto-shotgun that can just brainlessly fire in your general direction? That's not what "balance" is.

Oh and the ATAC has a default 0.70s TTK, but CJ3 makes it horrible and you'll miss constantly at max fire-rate. And even without CJ3, good luck landing every shot full-auto at 40m. ATAC is inconsistent as hell, sometimes it melts people, sometimes it starts drooling and misses half of your bullets despite aiming for center mass. So that TTK is only going to creep upwards, while Shredder is still sitting at effortless 0.69s kills.

In what world should an auto-shotgun take zero skill to use and destroy people who don't have completely perfect aim and luck? Sure, you can counter a Shredder with another shotgun, but that's not really a fair comparison, is it? If your best bet to counter a Shredder is to use a JG - and in this pairing, they come out on equal footing in close range - then why should the Shredder also be able to work long-range on top of that, plus being automatic, plus destroying cars faster than the ALIG, and plus being able to lean out of cars with it?

Did you miss the part of game balancing that teaches you about trade-offs? That balanced choices are balanced by an equal gap of pros and cons? Why should the Shredder be a JG but better in every way? And without a single downside? Being better in every way is called one of two things: Overpowered or Pay-2-Win. Or both, really.

That’s why they’re making the fire rate lower. The trade off is supposed to be the Shredder has a longer TTK than other shotguns and needs to be used while aiming down the sights, in exchange for being able to reach out further than other shotguns. The JG should be better under 10 to 15 meters, while the Shredder should beat the JG from 16 to 30ish meters. Then the Ntec should outperform the Shredder at anything over 35 meters.

Also the Dog Ear and Artemis are able to destroy people and cars alike at a much  further distance than the Shredder. Maybe the per pellet damage multiplier could be reduced along with the fire rate to make the shotgun less forgiving, but if you’re running straight into an automatic shotgun user with your car and expecting not to be heavily damaged, you’re doing it wrong.

[Siamsol 31]

2 hours ago, notHunky said:

That’s why they’re making the fire rate lower. The trade off is supposed to be the Shredder has a longer TTK than other shotguns and needs to be used while aiming down the sights, in exchange for being able to reach out further than other shotguns. The JG should be better under 10 to 15 meters, while the Shredder should beat the JG from 16 to 30ish meters. Then the Ntec should outperform the Shredder at anything over 35 meters.

Also the Dog Ear and Artemis are able to destroy people and cars alike at a much further distance than the Shredder. Maybe the per pellet damage multiplier could be reduced along with the fire rate to make the shotgun less forgiving, but if you’re running straight into an automatic shotgun user with your car and expecting not to be heavily damaged, you’re doing it wrong.

So you think it is fair if the Shredder has: Better consistency, better range, full-auto firing, drive-by mode, better pellet grouping, better hard damage, and a better ammo capacity - and a single downside of slightly longer TTK. That's balanced? You're extremely short-sighted.

Dog Ear and Artemis have Shredder-tier hard damage? ...Do you even think before you speak, or do you just pass off your opinions as fact? ALIG top-end hard DPS is 412. That's without CJ3, since it blooms too much with it. And hell, it's lower than that due to its base bloom, tap-firing it leaves it around 330 HDPS or less. Whereas the Shredder has a CJ3 HDPS of 305, which is pretty much guaranteed, and plus it can be done from a car window. So maybe my statement of it being completely better than ALIG is exaggerated, but it's close. Yet the Dog Ear sits at 243 HDPS, and the Artemis at 250 HDPS. That's a bit high, with the DMR-AV PR2 at 242 HDPS, but if the DMR-AV is balanced, so are these guns. Artemis with CJ3 tops out a bit higher, but since I'm not sure how it performs with that mod, I will not make a concrete statement.

Yet JG is 196 HDPS (210 with CJ3). Also, the JG is meant to have high hard damage as a shotgun. The CSG is a JG competitor, made for the specific purpose of being better against people than the JG - and the CSG tops out at 170 HDPS, thus reaffirming the JG's role. So why does the Shredder deserve to have 150% of the hard damage of the JG, on top of all of its other benefits? Hard damage that out-classes all of the other guns that are literally dedicated to having hard damage as a selling-point? Hell, take the NFAS as an example, since you seem to think that being an automatic-shotgun somehow grants it magical car-destroying rights. NFAS is 189 HDPS, 204 with CJ3 (lol good luck hitting with CJ though). As a fully automatic shotgun, it does LESS hard damage. BECAUSE THAT'S PART OF WHAT MAKES IT BALANCED. In no situation will NFAS compete with a JG for hard damage with how much the NFAS misses.

And you know what, just to make my point easier to understand, here's a table: https://i.imgur.com/D14LdGq.png

While doing this table, I also added values for the Shredder after its rate-of-fire nerf. Note that it only gets moved down to the category of hard-damage-specializing weapons, still out-performing all other shotguns by a huge margin. Remember that being hard-damage-specializing is reason enough to nerf other parts of a gun to make it balanced, so the Shredder still maintains abnormally high HDPS as one of it's massive advantages.

Stop passing your opinion off as fact. Everything you say is literally provably wrong, over and over. Please never give balance 'advice' ever again.

And hey, LO? Please look at that table. Double-check it yourself, and realize the Shredder needs more nerfing. C'mon.

[Noob_Guardian 417]

1 hour ago, Siamsol said:

So you think it is fair if the Shredder has: Better consistency, better range, full-auto firing, drive-by mode, better pellet grouping, better hard damage, and a better ammo capacity - and a single downside of slightly longer TTK. That's balanced? You're extremely short-sighted.

Dog Ear and Artemis have Shredder-tier hard damage? ...Do you even think before you speak, or do you just pass off your opinions as fact? ALIG top-end hard DPS is 412. That's without CJ3, since it blooms too much with it. And hell, it's lower than that due to its base bloom, tap-firing it leaves it around 330 HDPS or less. Whereas the Shredder has a CJ3 HDPS of 305, which is pretty much guaranteed, and plus it can be done from a car window. So maybe my statement of it being completely better than ALIG is exaggerated, but it's close. Yet the Dog Ear sits at 243 HDPS, and the Artemis at 250 HDPS. That's a bit high, with the DMR-AV PR2 at 242 HDPS, but if the DMR-AV is balanced, so are these guns. Artemis with CJ3 tops out a bit higher, but since I'm not sure how it performs with that mod, I will not make a concrete statement.

Yet JG is 196 HDPS (210 with CJ3). Also, the JG is meant to have high hard damage as a shotgun. The CSG is a JG competitor, made for the specific purpose of being better against people than the JG - and the CSG tops out at 170 HDPS, thus reaffirming the JG's role. So why does the Shredder deserve to have 150% of the hard damage of the JG, on top of all of its other benefits? Hard damage that out-classes all of the other guns that are literally dedicated to having hard damage as a selling-point? Hell, take the NFAS as an example, since you seem to think that being an automatic-shotgun somehow grants it magical car-destroying rights. NFAS is 189 HDPS, 204 with CJ3 (lol good luck hitting with CJ though). As a fully automatic shotgun, it does LESS hard damage. BECAUSE THAT'S PART OF WHAT MAKES IT BALANCED. In no situation will NFAS compete with a JG for hard damage with how much the NFAS misses.

And you know what, just to make my point easier to understand, here's a table: https://i.imgur.com/D14LdGq.png

While doing this table, I also added values for the Shredder after its rate-of-fire nerf. Note that it only gets moved down to the category of hard-damage-specializing weapons, still out-performing all other shotguns by a huge margin. Remember that being hard-damage-specializing is reason enough to nerf other parts of a gun to make it balanced, so the Shredder still maintains abnormally high HDPS as one of it's massive advantages.

Stop passing your opinion off as fact. Everything you say is literally provably wrong, over and over. Please never give balance 'advice' ever again.

And hey, LO? Please look at that table. Double-check it yourself, and realize the Shredder needs more nerfing. C'mon.

You do realize the only changes that LO made to the shredder was to range, pellets, and ttk? People keep complaining about shredder killing cars, but fail to realize its shit at doing it past 25m (and has been doing it since it came out). I dunno about you but i almost NEVER have a car chase/shootout. If you're in a vehicle getting shot and blown up by a shredder, you clearly did something severely wrong to get within range while driving, or trying to "drive away" with a slow vehicle. I have never been blown up by a shredder just saying, so i'm obviously doing "something" right.

Also note that all those guns that reach further deal less hard damage. Excluding jg because its not actually meant to destroy cars, as it is to deal high damage to it, nfas isnt a weapon that is meant to do high hard damage either, its range is litterally 5m its meant as a spray and pray cqc weapon which is why its ttk is .58 3 hits to kill and is why its not only full auto but its bloom is horrible with its range! Having a much worse range and bloom than the JG and CSG to keep it balanced!

The shredder is meant to have range. Also just because its full auto doesn't mean it isnt meant to deal high hard damage! Alig does really high hard damage but its full auto! Also note that when the ROF increase comes in for the shredder it will fire MUCH slower ROF than an NFAS AND ALIG! With less range than the Alig and every other weapon that does high hard damage in the game!

Hell the ISSR Dogear, isn't even identified as an antivehicle weapon in its text! But its arguably according to some one of the best guns in the game for antipersonel and doing high damage to vehicles, but you claim now that it's balanced? How it's not an AV weapon! NERF IT! (that is, if i was to act like anything without "av" is meant to be "ap".)


Long range weapons can fire further than the other weapons and thus get more shots off at a vehicle to make up for its hard damage at range. It makes sense then that a weapon that has a range of roughly 25m can deal more damage to a vehicle in comparison to the other weapons with 70-100m ranges. Just because it's good at destroying vehicles as well, does not mean it needs to be nerfed even further than necessary to make it a "utility only gun". You know, because hybrids are allowed. Not that we actually have very many effective hybrids, because lets be honest, G1 did shit balancing to anything that did decent car damage by giving it horrible firing mechanics in general which is why a good 85% of the utility type guns are not used by anyone! (except well, the dmr av and issrb)

Shredder isn't primarily meant to be a vehicle destroyer, however it does do high hard damage. So what? That doesn't mean it needs a nerf past the ROF and decreased Shotgun buff. Even if LO decreased its hard damage to 250 you probably still wouldnt be happy with it.

Also note DMR-AV has damage ramp and its damage increases at range, also your dmr av stats seem off it starts at 180 damage and ramps to 270 according to both databases, does pr2 have the useless IR3 mod?

A weapon is allowed a niche, and it doesn't need further nerfing because you simply don't like it. The suggestions to make it either completely useless in cqc, and completely useless in general are getting old. The shredder will be balanced once its ROF and Less pellet overtune gets fixed. It doesn't need any other changes simply because "you don't like it" (it's clear you have a bias against the weapon and want to see it nerfed to the ground).
 

[Virgil 55]

12 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

You do realize the only changes that LO made to the shredder was to range, pellets, and ttk? People keep complaining about shredder killing cars, but fail to realize its shit at doing it past 25m (and has been doing it since it came out). I dunno about you but i almost NEVER have a car chase/shootout. If you're in a vehicle getting shot and blown up by a shredder, you clearly did something severely wrong to get within range while driving, or trying to "drive away" with a slow vehicle. I have never been blown up by a shredder just saying, so i'm obviously doing "something" right.

Also note that all those guns that reach further deal less hard damage. Excluding jg because its not actually meant to destroy cars, as it is to deal high damage to it, nfas isnt a weapon that is meant to do high hard damage either, its range is litterally 5m its meant as a spray and pray cqc weapon which is why its ttk is .58 3 hits to kill and is why its not only full auto but its bloom is horrible with its range! Having a much worse range and bloom than the JG and CSG to keep it balanced!

The shredder is meant to have range. Also just because its full auto doesn't mean it isnt meant to deal high hard damage! Alig does really high hard damage but its full auto! Also note that when the ROF increase comes in for the shredder it will fire MUCH slower ROF than an NFAS AND ALIG! With less range than the Alig and every other weapon that does high hard damage in the game!

Hell the ISSR Dogear, isn't even identified as an antivehicle weapon in its text! But its arguably according to some one of the best guns in the game for antipersonel and doing high damage to vehicles, but you claim now that it's balanced? How it's not an AV weapon! NERF IT! (that is, if i was to act like anything without "av" is meant to be "ap".)


Long range weapons can fire further than the other weapons and thus get more shots off at a vehicle to make up for its hard damage at range. It makes sense then that a weapon that has a range of roughly 25m can deal more damage to a vehicle in comparison to the other weapons with 70-100m ranges. Just because it's good at destroying vehicles as well, does not mean it needs to be nerfed even further than necessary to make it a "utility only gun". You know, because hybrids are allowed. Not that we actually have very many effective hybrids, because lets be honest, G1 did shit balancing to anything that did decent car damage by giving it horrible firing mechanics in general which is why a good 85% of the utility type guns are not used by anyone! (except well, the dmr av and issrb)

Shredder isn't primarily meant to be a vehicle destroyer, however it does do high hard damage. So what? That doesn't mean it needs a nerf past the ROF and decreased Shotgun buff. Even if LO decreased its hard damage to 250 you probably still wouldnt be happy with it.

Also note DMR-AV has damage ramp and its damage increases at range, also your dmr av stats seem off it starts at 180 damage and ramps to 270 according to both databases, does pr2 have the useless IR3 mod?

A weapon is allowed a niche, and it doesn't need further nerfing because you simply don't like it. The suggestions to make it either completely useless in cqc, and completely useless in general are getting old. The shredder will be balanced once its ROF and Less pellet overtune gets fixed. It doesn't need any other changes simply because "you don't like it" (it's clear you have a bias against the weapon and want to see it nerfed to the ground).
 

Just going to say something.

If a gun was broken before, and nobody noticed because it was used, and now that people complain about it because it's used, it doesn't make it any less broken. You can stop repeating that bullshoot.