Game balance

[Frosi 722]

1 hour ago, temv said:

You - "the document was done as a passion project of mine"

Matt Scott - "I personally have already created a 18 page document"

What Matt posted above is a quote from the Open Letter that I have written, those aren't his words, they're mine.

[BlatMan 718]

22 hours ago, Frosi said:

I won't go into the feedback much but I want to point out that both of you seemed to have missed that the RFP changes are a revert to how the RFP used to be when it was the go to pistol in the game and could reliably kill players on 40-47 meters.

 

Except you missed a key part:

https://legacy.apbdb.com/changes/

Pistol_RFP9 fRadiusAtTenMetres 10 > 20

 

The accuracy would need to be changed back to 10, otherwise it's just going to be less accurate than the current version.

 

I'm questioning your sanity over the FFA 'bullshark' change. Less bloom per shot will help take advantage of it's 4+ round bursts, but completely removing the bloom will make it strait upgrade over the current OBIR / FFA. You won't need IR3 for extra range since you'll be landing all the shots from 4+ round bursts.

[Revoluzzer 274]

On 12/16/2022 at 8:05 PM, Noob_Guardian said:

I disagree that they overnerf everything. The game's gun balance is in one of the best places it's been.

At the steep price of those terrible, terrible curve-mechanics.

The gun-feel was much better when weapons performed in a linear, expectable fashion. Let alone completely nonsensical designs like damage based on weapon accuracy.

 

On 12/17/2022 at 1:00 AM, temv said:

You - "the document was done as a passion project of mine"

Matt Scott - "I personally have already created a 18 page document"

 

apparently I don't understand something

 

Terrible formatting-job on Matt's behalf. Should've put the text in a quote-box or "formatted it differently" to show they're not his own words. (I guess it's even worse that he has some different formatting in this topic-starter, but neither are his words.)

Edited December 18, 2022 by Revoluzzer

[CIoud 26]

⠀

Edited September 6, 2023 by who

[your-username-is-not-suitable 82]

Stop nerfing guns and buffing their competitors at the same time.

[Darkzero3802 614]

You cant balance weapons based on non existent hitreg and bots that make weapon stats unrealistic. You guys did a rebalance based off of weapon use and KDR at one point in time and with the constant closets and blatents out there all you did was ruin the weapons. These KDR stats arent accurate or genuine so long as bots are the majority. You also cant get accurate weapon stats when hitreg dont work. It has been proven countless times it doesnt work and this if it did work properly weapon stats would be much different.

 

TLDR: You cant even begin to discuss weapon balancing untill core game flaws are fixed

[CookiePuss 5382]

7 hours ago, Darkzero3802 said:

You guys did a rebalance based off of weapon use and KDR at one point in time

This was before LO?

[kuzama 0]

no s1-na ，His ttk is slower by 0.72 and harder to control than the M-1922，bu im love this gun。Now it's almost unwinnable。

 no vas-c2, his ttk is quick but accuracy issues result in a wide range of hits at close range compared to the PMG， 

In contrast to the ATAC424, the accuracy of the shooter mode is seriously lacking, leading to an embarrassment of merit。

 

Overall S1-NA and vas-c2 is ttk is a lack of precision is a lack of hope to strengthen, let it have with the PMG and OCA competition strength。Because my English is very poor so I can only use translation software to communicate

[Darkzero3802 614]

On 12/20/2022 at 8:10 AM, CookiePuss said:

This was before LO?

Im pretty sure it was during LO. When did Tiggs ever do work like that?

[CIoud 26]

⠀

Edited September 6, 2023 by who

[kuzama 0]

7 hours ago, temv said:

什么？在什么方面更难？

不确定 s1-na，它是一个口袋 atac，不需要任何技能即可使用。同意 mb 它需要比 72 更快的 ttk，但是你需要 buff tg。或制作 atac 72 和 s1-na 70，但也 buff tg

vas-c2 是一个困难的。它是 op，但我不记得他们改变了什么。这是关于很好的 imo，noob 友好，但有时仍然可以很快杀死

后坐力   Recoil

s1-na  Lo weakened once before，In fact, put him back is also good

[Noob_Guardian 418]

On 12/18/2022 at 6:48 AM, Revoluzzer said:

At the steep price of those terrible, terrible curve-mechanics.

The gun-feel was much better when weapons performed in a linear, expectable fashion. Let alone completely nonsensical designs like damage based on weapon accuracy.

I can agree with the damage based on accuracy, though i am not opposed to curved recoil or bloom.

[BlatMan 718]

12 hours ago, Darkzero3802 said:

Im pretty sure it was during LO. When did Tiggs ever do work like that?

It was before LO. G1 had test districts with various weapons and ttk changes. They also analyzed each weapon's average ttk and adjusted the weapons to get it slower. This is where the retarded bloom curve mechanic came from.

[sweetLemonade 110]

10 hours ago, BlatMan said:

It was before LO. G1 had test districts with various weapons and ttk changes. They also analyzed each weapon's average ttk and adjusted the weapons to get it slower. This is where the retarded bloom curve mechanic came from.

To add to this, all of those test districts attempts have been on purposely gimped by the devs due to Qwentle's design choice in keeping the game with a faster/lower TTK, they haven't even bothered implementing high TTK in those districts right. They created an illusion to the community that longer TTK (with less bloom) is bad, but implemented a (slightly) longer TTK over live but adding an element of randomness to it (high bloom with slow recovery), resulting in weapons feeling like waterguns, inconsistent.

None of the "aaaHHH HiTrEg iS bAd, FiX sErVerS pLoX!!" issues people keep on mentioning wouldn't exist if they balanced the game around longer/high TTK, less/no bloom, less/no movement penalties and especially no curve mechanics that they've added later on (lazy band-aid to fix the fundamental problem this game has)

 

[BlatMan 718]

The hitreg problems have nothing to do with the current weapon system, it's the netcode. There's no upper latency limit for lag compensation, meaning you can have 2000ms latency and still hit players who are visible on your screen, but are behind cover server sided. Waiting 2+ seconds for your shot to hit isn't exactly playable, but the netcode allows it. There's no timestamps, the server processes packets the order they come in. This causes issues like ghost shots when one packet takes a few ms longer than the next. There's other netcode issues that enable things like the teleport speed hack. There's also noticeable delay processing player hits compared to vehicles and pedestrians.

 

If weapons were more accurate, you'd have more complaints about hitreg because more players would know their shot should have hit or not, rather than thinking it was rng with the bloom.

[sweetLemonade 110]

3 hours ago, BlatMan said:

The hitreg problems have nothing to do with the current weapon system, it's the netcode. There's no upper latency limit for lag compensation, meaning you can have 2000ms latency and still hit players who are visible on your screen, but are behind cover server sided. Waiting 2+ seconds for your shot to hit isn't exactly playable, but the netcode allows it. There's no timestamps, the server processes packets the order they come in. This causes issues like ghost shots when one packet takes a few ms longer than the next. There's other netcode issues that enable things like the teleport speed hack. There's also noticeable delay processing player hits compared to vehicles and pedestrians.

 

If weapons were more accurate, you'd have more complaints about hitreg because more players would know their shot should have hit or not, rather than thinking it was rng with the bloom.

Of course, the servers have always been an issue in this game, ever since they downgraded the hardware (to keep server costs low) in G1 days and change of server tickrate, the servers have been wonky sometimes.

But, how can you be so sure that every hitreg problem reported is caused by flawed netcode? In a game that fundamentally relies on RNG/Bloom as much as APB, after having played games which lack it, I can't say for certain anymore.

I just know that this game needs a radical shift in game design if it wants to start to get people hooked to the overall gameplay. 

Make weapons reliable and most importantly CONSISTENT, without the need of modding (mods shouldn't affect ttk and bloom in any game that tries to be a shooter) it.

Edited December 22, 2022 by yourrandomnobody74

[NotZombieBiscuit 3146]

1 hour ago, yourrandomnobody74 said:

Of course, the servers have always been an issue in this game, ever since they downgraded the hardware (to keep server costs low) in G1 days and change of server tickrate, the servers have been wonky sometimes.

But, how can you be so sure that every hitreg problem reported is caused by flawed netcode? In a game that fundamentally relies on RNG/Bloom as much as APB, after having played games which lack it, I can't say for certain anymore.

I just know that this game needs a radical shift in game design if it wants to start to get people hooked to the overall gameplay. 

Make weapons reliable and most importantly CONSISTENT, without the need of modding (mods shouldn't affect ttk and bloom in any game that tries to be a shooter) it.

You can certainly toss some of it up to random bloom, lack of tracers, and hit decals/blood splatters/etc being client side to causing a large amount of what are thought to be ghost shots. Ghost shots and hit reg used to be faaar worse back in like 2013. It still certainly happens today but is over exaggerated by a lot of people.

[BlatMan 718]

20 hours ago, NotZombieBiscuit said:

You can certainly toss some of it up to random bloom, lack of tracers, and hit decals/blood splatters/etc being client side to causing a large amount of what are thought to be ghost shots. Ghost shots and hit reg used to be faaar worse back in like 2013. It still certainly happens today but is over exaggerated by a lot of people.

For me it was worst when the servers were in Texas with the ddos protection. Who LO are using now, Path, are much more stable.

 

22 hours ago, yourrandomnobody74 said:

Of course, the servers have always been an issue in this game, ever since they downgraded the hardware (to keep server costs low) in G1 days and change of server tickrate, the servers have been wonky sometimes.

But, how can you be so sure that every hitreg problem reported is caused by flawed netcode? In a game that fundamentally relies on RNG/Bloom as much as APB, after having played games which lack it, I can't say for certain anymore.

I just know that this game needs a radical shift in game design if it wants to start to get people hooked to the overall gameplay. 

Make weapons reliable and most importantly CONSISTENT, without the need of modding (mods shouldn't affect ttk and bloom in any game that tries to be a shooter) it.

When your crosshair is fully closed and pointed at the center of car's door, but the shot misses and your ammo decreased. I can consistently ghost shoot semi-auto weapons without using a macro, as in shooting client sided but the ammo stays the same and others don't see you shooting.

Edited December 23, 2022 by BlatMan

[sweetLemonade 110]

20 minutes ago, BlatMan said:

For me it was worst when the servers were in Texas with the ddos protection. Who LO are using now, Path, are much more stable.

 

When your crosshair is fully closed and pointed at the center of car's door, but the shot misses and your ammo decreased. I can consistently ghost shoot semi-auto weapons without using a macro, as in shooting client sided but the ammo stays the same and others don't see you shooting.

The problem is, the crosshair in APB is never in a "fully-closed" state. ADS-ing still means you have a chance to get RNG'd. I, personally, have not experienced the mentioned ghostshoots with semi-auto weapons as much the past few times I've played (tbf, it was ages ago), so I cannot vouch for that.

A properly, fully-closed crosshair (if you can trust it to be a reliable visual cue for accuracy) would be akin to the Scout with HS1/2/3 back before the jumpshot nerf (and the dev star has it to), which I wish every weapon in this game had for it's 1st shot accuracy at the very least

[BlatMan 718]

37 minutes ago, yourrandomnobody74 said:

The problem is, the crosshair in APB is never in a "fully-closed" state. ADS-ing still means you have a chance to get RNG'd. I, personally, have not experienced the mentioned ghostshoots with semi-auto weapons as much the past few times I've played (tbf, it was ages ago), so I cannot vouch for that.

A properly, fully-closed crosshair (if you can trust it to be a reliable visual cue for accuracy) would be akin to the Scout with HS1/2/3 back before the jumpshot nerf (and the dev star has it to), which I wish every weapon in this game had for it's 1st shot accuracy at the very least

It doesn't matter if the crosshair is "fully closed" or has 1 pixel gap, that's still accurate enough to hit a vehicle, especially when aimed center of the vehicle. What I'm saying is sometimes the server just doesn't process your shots.

[Revoluzzer 274]

13 hours ago, BlatMan said:

It doesn't matter if the crosshair is "fully closed" or has 1 pixel gap, that's still accurate enough to hit a vehicle, especially when aimed center of the vehicle. What I'm saying is sometimes the server just doesn't process your shots.

At which distance? Afaik the crosshairs represent your accuracy at 10m, beyond that the cone widens.

[MonkaS 215]

10 hours ago, Revoluzzer said:

At which distance? Afaik the crosshairs represent your accuracy at 10m, beyond that the cone widens.

That doesn't make sense in a game with hit-scan weapons why even have the crosshair bloom if its not going to accurately represent(past 10m you know where a large portion of game is played) where the 'bullets' land

[BlatMan 718]

10 hours ago, Revoluzzer said:

At which distance? Afaik the crosshairs represent your accuracy at 10m, beyond that the cone widens.

Last I checked it was impossible to miss a player if aimed near center hitbox at rendering using a DMR + hunting sight. I think a car is bigger than a player, and the middle of the door is about center of the car.

[NotZombieBiscuit 3146]

8 hours ago, MonkaS said:

That doesn't make sense in a game with hit-scan weapons why even have the crosshair bloom if its not going to accurately represent(past 10m you know where a large portion of game is played) where the 'bullets' land

Because basic mathematics does not care.

[BlatMan 718]

9 hours ago, MonkaS said:

That doesn't make sense in a game with hit-scan weapons why even have the crosshair bloom if its not going to accurately represent(past 10m you know where a large portion of game is played) where the 'bullets' land

It's 3rd person. Knowing the weapon is blooming is better than nothing. Most shots land closer to center than the max bloom so it's not the worst thing. If you want accuracy at 100M, multiply the 10M accuracy by 10. Want it at 50M? Multiply by 5. You can use compare that to the player's hitbox size, which I can't remember what it is.

 

The real issue is none of the real accuracy numbers are listed in game, so new players have no way of accurately calculating accuracy.