What should dictate the weapon meta?

[MonkaS 215]

8 hours ago, LilyRain said:

- "Always" isn't right and can never be true. The longer the time-to-kill the greater the premade advantage. We should be getting less of that, not more.

 

- Better dedicated servers cost money. Recall that LO dropped EAC for BattleEye because it was expensive. Perhaps if you'd be so kind and sponsor/fund the servers for LO then that could be feasible.

 

- There will be nothing to track when it is so easy to find a wall/car to hide behind. This isn't APEX, this is APB. The spatial-design doesn't accommodate for longer ttk.

- nope it would be always if matchmaking actually had the pool it needed for far matches

 

- nope they dropped it due to EAC refusing to properly implement it in apb after stating they would.

 

- you are full of it the game had longer ttk and the maps were designed for longer ttk 

[FakeBungo 248]

On 9/2/2021 at 9:45 PM, PotatoeGirl said:

The power factor of every gun should be based around the Star.

 

Also considering how laggy this game is, it really needs shorter TTKs. Sometimes I die before can even see than I am taking dmg. 

A lot of times I start landing shots first and the other guy turns around and still kills me in half a time. 

time to kill means how long it takes to kill someone, if it was shorter that means you are dying even faster bro

 

Merged.

 

nobody has talked about actual weapon balance changes to be made. saying ttk should be longer or shorter doesn't mean anything.

atm the only good changes that LO could make would be to revert all of their changes they have made so far.

[LilyRain 674]

6 hours ago, glaciers said:

-apb is a team based game at its core, i dont think its unreasonable to lean into that with higher ttks, especially when there will eventually be a matchmaking system capable of separating premade and solos

 

-weapons considered trash because of higher ttks are considered so because of the disparity between average/meta ttk and and their own higher ttk, if the average ttk was lengthened this disparity would lessen

 

-increasing ttk by lowering damage (missed shots are pess punishing) or decreasing rof (less chance of shots falling between frames) would lessen the effects of poor network code, not that the game should be balanced around such a thing anyway

 

-weapons would need to be rebalanced regardless, theres no reason that bloom and spread would not be taken into account

i think a longer ttk would allow for more accurate weapons as well, as minimum ttk moving closer to effective ttk would mean weapons dont need the artificial rng the current ttk requires

 

 

overall im not certain i support a longer ttk, while it would have a lot of benefits i think the biggest obstacle would be many players finding the slower game pace less fun than other shooters

- It is unreasonable because the game is already heavily leaning towards teamplay, to the point where it is so easy and coordination isn't even heavily needed to neutralize a target. 'Playing chess & checkmating the target' is indeed the way to go, but going one in at a time still does the trick quite easily, so we don't need to skew the game more towards teamplay. It is already there.

 

- Yes, the disparity would lessen but won't make APB a better game as garbage weapons will still remain the same. Clunky and slow and that's why it is a weak solution.

 

- Lowering damage per shot wont help the netcode against ghost-shots as that will only change the weight of the shot upon being registered. Reducing rate of fire won't either as there are a lot of 1-shot weapons that get their shots ghosted (e.g snipers, pig and even shotguns every now and then). It is a matter of the server being ready to receive input at the time of the shot. Therefore, by increasing ttk, the chances of ghost-shots per fight would actually increase as well and they'd be slightly more common.

 

- Bloom and spread should go down but they will never be fully removed like some suggested in a previous thread, because 'we're not allowed to have real recoil'. It is either this or that and that's the problem. More importantly, reducing bloom doesn't also mean ttk should be increased nor objectively supplements that stance in any capacity.

 

The benefits don't outweigh the costs. Longer ttk is a mistake and would only be an indication of "skill" if time-to-kill was instant like a P90-SMG in Counter Strike. An average ttk of 0.75 is fine as is and happens to be on the lengthy-side for a shooter. People such as qb mentioned APEX in a previous thread alongside wanting wall-jumps in APB (heh). Little he knew opponents in APEX can be dealt with much faster than 0.7s because headshots exist (unlike APB of course) and I already showed him a video on YouTube that shows ttks across weapons, that's why he couldn't say a word here or debunk anything and resorted to emotional-wars, which won't do him any favors. Any game with long-ttk either happens to take place in an open arena or have a higher-damaging mechanic to emphasize "skill" through being able to aim to the head. He really has no clue to what he's talking about.

 

I'm certain it will take another 11+ months to revert the long-ttk mistake and that's exactly what they want, see APB go into the grave because they can't leave it and move on otherwise.

 

5 hours ago, Hexerin said:

You are completely delusional and clearly have no capacity for rational discussion. I will no longer be responding to you on this topic.

You were meant to debunk what I've said but we both know it is un-debunkable, hence you won't even make an attempt. Simply because you can't.

 

I'm glad you realized your mistake. At least try to be more civil next time or just come back after learning how to debate with facts. Your manners are as weak as your arguments, you are already a meme in the community.

 

3 hours ago, MonkaS said:

- nope it would be always if matchmaking actually had the pool it needed for far matches

 

- nope they dropped it due to EAC refusing to properly implement it in apb after stating they would.

 

- you are full of it the game had longer ttk and the maps were designed for longer ttk 

- The pool won't be enough in a 40v40 district, that's why LO is working towards "Phasing" in the first place and even then, a premade is still a premade. Better Matchmaking doesn't mean solo-players would magically get forced to become a premade.

 

- That's because you still have to sponsor/buy them better servers. LO succeeded in getting EAC to integrate into the client but the server-side of things didn't go well as MattScott himself explained:

You made an appearance on that thread so you should already be aware of this. @Hexerin should also see this because he was bluffing before bailing when he claimed that "LO dropped EAC because Epic was attempting to hike the price up while also cutting half the product away from the contract. It had nothing to do with being "too expensive"". It is in fact the opposite, LO attempted a price-reduction and that didn't fly. And even now EAC is free for Game Developers but you still have to help LO with the server integration. We will all be grateful to you if you do. Just "fix the net code and servers" 5Head :monkaS:.

 

- Having even longer ttks than what we currently have doesn't mean we should go back there. The game also had epicly-tanky vehicles at one point, which didn't support "more skill" when it comes to dispatching vehicles. More time doesn't always equal more skill, because there is a point where too much of it will have the negative effect and that's what needs to be seen, we are already at that point for BOTH infantry and vehicles.

[FakeBungo 248]

17 minutes ago, LilyRain said:

- Bloom and spread should go down but they will never be fully removed like some suggested in a previous thread, because 'we're not allowed to have real recoil'. It is either this or that and that's the problem. More importantly, reducing bloom doesn't also mean ttk should be increased nor objectively supplements that stance in any capacity.

dude nobody wants to play with stupid CSGO/Rust recoil+spread patterns

[vsb 6171]

6 minutes ago, LilyRain said:

It is unreasonable because the game is already heavily leaning towards teamplay, to the point where it is so easy and coordination isn't even heavily needed to neutralize a target. 'Playing chess & checkmating the target' is indeed the way to go, but going one in at a time still does the trick quite easily, so we don't need to skew the game more towards teamplay. It is already there.

i think that teamplay and premades should be prioritized in just about every facet of apb, so i disagree

 

 

9 minutes ago, LilyRain said:

Yes, the disparity would lessen but won't make APB a better game as garbage weapons will still remain the same. Clunky and slow and that's why it is a weak solution.

say the average ttk of smgs is .7s and weapon x is considered trash because it has a ttk of .9s - if the average ttk of smgs is changed to .9s, weapon x will no longer be considered trash

 

 

12 minutes ago, LilyRain said:

Lowering damage per shot wont help the netcode against ghost-shots as that will only change the weight of the shot upon being registered. Reducing rate of fire won't either as there are a lot of 1-shot weapons that get their shots ghosted (e.g snipers, pig and even shotguns every now and then). It is a matter of the server being ready to receive input at the time of the shot. Therefore, by increasing ttk, the chances of ghost-shots per fight would actually increase as well and they'd be slightly more common.

a ghost shot is effectively a missed shot, lowering damage (or increasing stk) makes missed shots less punishing

 

valid point about single fire/semi auto weapons still experiencing ghost shots, lowering rof probably wouldn't be effective

 

 

14 minutes ago, LilyRain said:

Bloom and spread should go down but they will never be fully removed like some suggested in a previous thread, because 'we're not allowed to have real recoil'. It is either this or that and that's the problem. More importantly, reducing bloom doesn't also mean ttk should be increased nor objectively supplements that stance in any capacity.

I doubt bloom and spread will ever be significantly reduced at the current ttk, as it would push too many weapons closer to min ttk, and too many weapons have competitive min ttks for that

 

 

17 minutes ago, LilyRain said:

Longer ttk is a mistake and would only be an indication of "skill" if time-to-kill was instant like a P90-SMG in Counter Strike.

i don't think this sentence makes sense, but consistent tracking is just as much of a skill as twitch aim

 

 

 

[LilyRain 674]

23 minutes ago, glaciers said:

i think that teamplay and premades should be prioritized in just about every facet of apb, so i disagree

They are already prioritized enough over the fact that their mere-existence is an added quality.

 

Whatever state a game is in, being in a premade adds to that so we don't need to give them added layers of security. We are already at the point where even most premades wouldn't dare play solo. Your point is not invalid but APB is already there. We don't need to make it worse.

 

23 minutes ago, glaciers said:

say the average ttk of smgs is .7s and weapon x is considered trash because it has a ttk of .9s - if the average ttk of smgs is changed to .9s, weapon x will no longer be considered trash

Not every correct idea on paper would be nice in practice.

 

They will be because that would be too slow. Plus, it indirectly buffs corner camping, car gameplay and lower the skill ceiling. APB is a 3rd-person shooter, it doesn't need that much leniency.

 

That would also require slowing down shotguns because they are already the kings of CQC. There is no way people would appreciate a shotgun fire rate of 0.9s or a 3-shot-to-kill rework. It just won't happen.

 

23 minutes ago, glaciers said:

a ghost shot is effectively a missed shot, lowering damage (or increasing stk) makes missed shots less punishing

 

valid point about single fire/semi auto weapons still experiencing ghost shots, lowering rof probably wouldn't be effective

Less punishing but things stack up. 

 

The opponent is on the same field and is also likely to be punished by it. RNG-luck due to server responsiveness will still exist and statistically more of it. People wouldn't appreciate seeing more ghost-shots over the course of their session-time.

 

"Less punishing" is also dependent on weapon-type. So unless APB becomes assault rifles and SMGs only game, your statement will never be globally true.

 

23 minutes ago, glaciers said:

I doubt bloom and spread will ever be significantly reduced at the current ttk, as it would push too many weapons closer to min ttk, and too many weapons have competitive min ttks for that

I doubt that will happen as well but that would in fact be a good thing. It is what sets the meta apart, having the best min-ttks and often being close to achieving it. OCA will be the same as it is by far the easiest weapon in the game to use, N-tec will still be the top assault rifle, Oscar will still deserve the oscar-award as it won't even be affected, CR762 will also remain great, etc.

 

What we would see is STAR being a tad better (which is important for new player experience) and weapons that spread too much for their own good will also be overall better. That's exactly what the people want, buffing their favourite but gimped-for-no-reason weapons.

 

30 minutes ago, glaciers said:

i don't think this sentence makes sense, but consistent tracking is just as much of a skill as twitch aim

Indeed, they are all important but the ttk isn't as low as 0.3s to require an increase. There is nothing wrong with spending 0.7s per target compared to 0.9s or any other amount. Switching to other targets and giving them their fair tracking in succession is more indicative of skill than tunnel-visioning a single target Final Fantasy Boss style.

 

[MonkaS 215]

5 hours ago, LilyRain said:

- It is unreasonable because the game is already heavily leaning towards teamplay, to the point where it is so easy and coordination isn't even heavily needed to neutralize a target. 'Playing chess & checkmating the target' is indeed the way to go, but going one in at a time still does the trick quite easily, so we don't need to skew the game more towards teamplay. It is already there.

 

- Yes, the disparity would lessen but won't make APB a better game as garbage weapons will still remain the same. Clunky and slow and that's why it is a weak solution.

 

- Lowering damage per shot wont help the netcode against ghost-shots as that will only change the weight of the shot upon being registered. Reducing rate of fire won't either as there are a lot of 1-shot weapons that get their shots ghosted (e.g snipers, pig and even shotguns every now and then). It is a matter of the server being ready to receive input at the time of the shot. Therefore, by increasing ttk, the chances of ghost-shots per fight would actually increase as well and they'd be slightly more common.

 

- Bloom and spread should go down but they will never be fully removed like some suggested in a previous thread, because 'we're not allowed to have real recoil'. It is either this or that and that's the problem. More importantly, reducing bloom doesn't also mean ttk should be increased nor objectively supplements that stance in any capacity.

 

The benefits don't outweigh the costs. Longer ttk is a mistake and would only be an indication of "skill" if time-to-kill was instant like a P90-SMG in Counter Strike. An average ttk of 0.75 is fine as is and happens to be on the lengthy-side for a shooter. People such as qb mentioned APEX in a previous thread alongside wanting wall-jumps in APB (heh). Little he knew opponents in APEX can be dealt with much faster than 0.7s because headshots exist (unlike APB of course) and I already showed him a video on YouTube that shows ttks across weapons, that's why he couldn't say a word here or debunk anything and resorted to emotional-wars, which won't do him any favors. Any game with long-ttk either happens to take place in an open arena or have a higher-damaging mechanic to emphasize "skill" through being able to aim to the head. He really has no clue to what he's talking about.

 

I'm certain it will take another 11+ months to revert the long-ttk mistake and that's exactly what they want, see APB go into the grave because they can't leave it and move on otherwise.

 

You were meant to debunk what I've said but we both know it is un-debunkable, hence you won't even make an attempt. Simply because you can't.

 

I'm glad you realized your mistake. At least try to be more civil next time or just come back after learning how to debate with facts. Your manners are as weak as your arguments, you are already a meme in the community.

 

- The pool won't be enough in a 40v40 district, that's why LO is working towards "Phasing" in the first place and even then, a premade is still a premade. Better Matchmaking doesn't mean solo-players would magically get forced to become a premade.

 

- That's because you still have to sponsor/buy them better servers. LO succeeded in getting EAC to integrate into the client but the server-side of things didn't go well as MattScott himself explained:

You made an appearance on that thread so you should already be aware of this. @Hexerin should also see this because he was bluffing before bailing when he claimed that "LO dropped EAC because Epic was attempting to hike the price up while also cutting half the product away from the contract. It had nothing to do with being "too expensive"". It is in fact the opposite, LO attempted a price-reduction and that didn't fly. And even now EAC is free for Game Developers but you still have to help LO with the server integration. We will all be grateful to you if you do. Just "fix the net code and servers" 5Head :monkaS:.

 

- Having even longer ttks than what we currently have doesn't mean we should go back there. The game also had epicly-tanky vehicles at one point, which didn't support "more skill" when it comes to dispatching vehicles. More time doesn't always equal more skill, because there is a point where too much of it will have the negative effect and that's what needs to be seen, we are already at that point for BOTH infantry and vehicles.

Do you know what the average reaction speed is? its 250 ms now add that to the average overall system latency(20-55ms) + network latency(20-90ms) and you have 0.29-0.395 seconds. You are already tagged for 50% of your health in the amount of time it takes to just get and react to the information thats insane. Also EAC is not free don't know who told you that but they're lying and your reading comprehension is garbage LO dropped EAC because EAC reneged on there contract to PROPERLY implement EAC which was part of there licensing agreement. Also yes fix the netcode and servers its not a 5head thing its literally LO's job to make video games you don't see me asking a forklift driver to build rockets for space x I don't care how fudged up the code is ITS there job if they can't fix it than it just needs to die already.

Edited September 3, 2021 by MonkaS

[vsb 6171]

50 minutes ago, MonkaS said:

Also EAC is not free don't know who told you that but they're lying and your reading comprehension is garbage

https://www.pcgamer.com/epic-has-made-easy-anti-cheat-free-for-game-developers/

 

https://dev.epicgames.com/en-US/services-games

 

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by glaciers
extra link

[MonkaS 215]

2 minutes ago, glaciers said:

https://www.pcgamer.com/epic-has-made-easy-anti-cheat-free-for-game-developers/

pretty sure it requires game to be on the epic game store like vac on steam so free* I guess

Edited September 3, 2021 by MonkaS

[vsb 6171]

2 minutes ago, MonkaS said:

pretty sure it requires game to be on the epic game store like vac on steam so free* I guess

it says across all stores, so it doesn't look like there's an exclusivity clause

[MonkaS 215]

7 minutes ago, glaciers said:

it says across all stores, so it doesn't look like there's an exclusivity clause

your right but than I see stuff like this 

and this

which makes me go hmmmmmmmmmmmm

[FakeBungo 248]

57 minutes ago, MonkaS said:

your right but than I see stuff like this 

and this

which makes me go hmmmmmmmmmmmm

EAC is garbage, it gave me a false ban when I played fortnite

[LilyRain 674]

5 hours ago, MonkaS said:

Do you know what the average reaction speed is? its 250 ms now add that to the average overall system latency(20-55ms) + network latency(20-90ms) and you have 0.29-0.395 seconds. You are already tagged for 50% of your health in the amount of time it takes to just get and react to the information thats insane. Also EAC is not free don't know who told you that but they're lying and your reading comprehension is garbage LO dropped EAC because EAC reneged on there contract to PROPERLY implement EAC which was part of there licensing agreement. Also yes fix the netcode and servers its not a 5head thing its literally LO's job to make video games you don't see me asking a forklift driver to build rockets for space x I don't care how fudged up the code is ITS there job if they can't fix it than it just needs to die already.

Not a single thing you wrote in there is correct, I'm very disappointed in you, nothing but an ill-mannered loud-mouth.

 

If your reaction time to clicking a mouse is 250ms then I am deeply, deeply sorry for you. 250ms is the reaction time to PHYSICALLY demanding movements of the human body. It seems you can't even Google things right. There is this website called "Human Benchmark" which contains a reaction test for clicking. The test obviously pertains to how fast your monitor's refresh rate is but you can easily do 200ms on a 60hz monitor (and it happens to be the average). Here, see the profile for yourself (I hope you can read a simple graph): https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime

As an added bonus, here are examples to reaction times with a decent gaming monitor: 

 

Clearly the average time is half of what you stated. 250ms to click/start moving a mouse..... really?

 

If your computer's latency is 55ms, you better start cleaning it up and optimizing it for gaming because it is nothing but a toaster. Here is a fresh Latency test on my own system, which clearly show that latency is in MICRO seconds, not ms (and that's with both Twitch and a game running): 

 

Network Latency goes both ways, not just to your perspective. That's why "Lag Shield" is a common term in online gaming, but you obviously didn't know that either.

 

There is nothing "insane" about it, you're just too slow.

-----------------------------

EAC is free but glaciers already showed you that.

-----------------------------

"I don't care how fudged up the code is ITS there job if they can't fix it than it just needs to die already"

Or you can just leave with some dignity rather than show the entire world how clueless you truly are. 'Just fix it or kill it 5Head' eh? If it is that simple you can do it for them.

What an absolute fool.

[MonkaS 215]

2 hours ago, LilyRain said:

Not a single thing you wrote in there is correct, I'm very disappointed in you, nothing but an ill-mannered loud-mouth.

 

If your reaction time to clicking a mouse is 250ms then I am deeply, deeply sorry for you. 250ms is the reaction time to PHYSICALLY demanding movements of the human body. It seems you can't even Google things right. There is this website called "Human Benchmark" which contains a reaction test for clicking. The test obviously pertains to how fast your monitor's refresh rate is but you can easily do 200ms on a 60hz monitor (and it happens to be the average). Here, see the profile for yourself (I hope you can read a simple graph): https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime

As an added bonus, here are examples to reaction times with a decent gaming monitor: 

 

Clearly the average time is half of what you stated. 250ms to click/start moving a mouse..... really?

 

If your computer's latency is 55ms, you better start cleaning it up and optimizing it for gaming because it is nothing but a toaster. Here is a fresh Latency test on my own system, which clearly show that latency is in MICRO seconds, not ms (and that's with both Twitch and a game running): 

 

Network Latency goes both ways, not just to your perspective. That's why "Lag Shield" is a common term in online gaming, but you obviously didn't know that either.

 

There is nothing "insane" about it, you're just too slow.

-----------------------------

EAC is free but glaciers already showed you that.

-----------------------------

"I don't care how fudged up the code is ITS there job if they can't fix it than it just needs to die already"

Or you can just leave with some dignity rather than show the entire world how clueless you truly are. 'Just fix it or kill it 5Head' eh? If it is that simple you can do it for them.

What an absolute fool.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/enabling-superhuman-reflexes-without-feeling-like-a-robot average is 250ms and no its measured in milliseconds 

 

 

[yourrandomnobody74 106]

4 hours ago, LilyRain said:

Not a single thing you wrote in there is correct, I'm very disappointed in you, nothing but an ill-mannered loud-mouth.

 

If your reaction time to clicking a mouse is 250ms then I am deeply, deeply sorry for you. 250ms is the reaction time to PHYSICALLY demanding movements of the human body. It seems you can't even Google things right. There is this website called "Human Benchmark" which contains a reaction test for clicking. The test obviously pertains to how fast your monitor's refresh rate is but you can easily do 200ms on a 60hz monitor (and it happens to be the average). Here, see the profile for yourself (I hope you can read a simple graph): https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime

As an added bonus, here are examples to reaction times with a decent gaming monitor: 

 

Clearly the average time is half of what you stated. 250ms to click/start moving a mouse..... really?

 

If your computer's latency is 55ms, you better start cleaning it up and optimizing it for gaming because it is nothing but a toaster. Here is a fresh Latency test on my own system, which clearly show that latency is in MICRO seconds, not ms (and that's with both Twitch and a game running): 

 

Network Latency goes both ways, not just to your perspective. That's why "Lag Shield" is a common term in online gaming, but you obviously didn't know that either.

 

There is nothing "insane" about it, you're just too slow.

-----------------------------

EAC is free but glaciers already showed you that.

-----------------------------

"I don't care how fudged up the code is ITS there job if they can't fix it than it just needs to die already"

Or you can just leave with some dignity rather than show the entire world how clueless you truly are. 'Just fix it or kill it 5Head' eh? If it is that simple you can do it for them.

What an absolute fool.

Imagine thinking dpc latency equals to overall input lag, yikes....

First, read through things carefully with the intent of understanding the opposing person and stop skimming, you could learn that. Second, could you stop labeling people with hideous names and start being more open-minded? You can be wrong sometimes, it's not bad being wrong.

Oh and could you show us your good gameplay footage, computer and gamer guru?  We are clearly missing guidance from you, as it seems the majority is in the wrong while you are always right

Edited September 4, 2021 by qb

[cowhorseman 441]

what if the real weapon meta is how much we enjoy using certain guns and that makes the meta what we love to use.

[LilyRain 674]

On 9/4/2021 at 4:40 AM, qb said:

Imagine thinking dpc latency equals to overall input lag, yikes....

First, read through things carefully with the intent of understanding the opposing person and stop skimming, you could learn that. Second, could you stop labeling people with hideous names and start being more open-minded? You can be wrong sometimes, it's not bad being wrong.

I have already covered all of that but it seems you don't read yourself.

 

On 9/4/2021 at 4:40 AM, qb said:

Oh and could you show us your good gameplay footage, computer and gamer guru?  We are clearly missing guidance from you, as it seems the majority is in the wrong while you are always right

I've already showed how I became MVP in Asylum with a pure Fragile + LTL Loadout to some loud-mouth before but it seems you aren't a forum-regular. Can you do the same? Spoiler alert: You won't.

 

Merged.

 

On 9/4/2021 at 3:10 AM, MonkaS said:

https://spectrum.ieee.org/enabling-superhuman-reflexes-without-feeling-like-a-robot average is 250ms and no its measured in milliseconds 

 

 

It seems you are still unable to follow or see the bigger picture, but this is an excellent place to start.

 

System-latency is a global variable. You have it, your opponent has it AND THE SERVER has it too over the entire effective configuration of all of your respective latencies and server refresh rates. And for this very reason, once more, "Lag Shield" is a thing and there is absolutely nothing that you can do about that. It is simply the current available technology that we use to play games.

 

Plus, that video is a great example to what I was saying, giving more advantages to the person holding the corner. That's literally what the video is showing.

------------------------------------------------------------

 

Again, "250ms is the reaction time to PHYSICALLY demanding movements of the human body" that involve the visual-stimulus, which the link YOU JUST POSTED shows. They are doing trials to literally intercept a ball with a gun that shoots a ball with a wire attached to it. Moreover, that research itself shows what gamers actually stand for and ACHIEVED. Upgrading one's own reflexes without actually becoming a robot is what gamers do and that's what they did, they achieved that "80 ms" reduction just like in the video I showed you prior, averaging reaction times in the 120ms region without external help. It is simply what makes humans unique, they improve with training and reflex time is no exception.

 

Which brings us back to the current-topic and that's exactly what I am trying to remind you, you'd only be delaying the inevitable. By the time YOU react, your opponent would still be at full health and YOU would require the same time-to-kill to kill them. It happened a lot on Twitch, Reverse and other good players commonly turn around and pull a reversal to those attacking them from behind as soon as they get shot, so your estimation of "0.29-0.395 seconds" to react is very far from the truth (unless you used to play in the Bronze district). Seriously, 0.29-395 seconds is getting shot by FBW 2.5 to 3 times.... a lot of players can react within that time and start doing something. It is far from "insanity"

 

Therefore, if you increase time-to-kill, you'd actually be shooting yourself in the foot because you'd be guaranteeing your own death. Simply because the person who shot you from the back actually gets more chances to miss. It isn't like you're increasing their time to kill but not yours (unless that's what you want, make certain weapons more garbage so you get to win more easily, because you know for a fact that LO would never balance all weapons at once. Scummy to be honest, nothing more).

 

More importantly, if you are winning a fight, you'd be giving more time for another opponent to jump in and mess that up. That is already common because the central time to kill in APB is 0.75s, which is already lengthy enough.

 

Increasing time-to-kill is not a great idea. APB shouldn't become more MOBA-like and you are yet to justify why such a stupid move is a great idea.

[yourrandomnobody74 106]

1 hour ago, LilyRain said:

Increasing time-to-kill is not a great idea. APB shouldn't become more MOBA-like and you are yet to justify why such a stupid move is a great idea.

This game was made on 0.9-1.1s TTK (even longer in RTW times due to mods) yet you persist on lower TTK being better, like all CoD kids claiming it's competitive when it's not.

Please, do yourself a favour and stop posting nonsense, you half-patootie everything without any thought. You clearly lack any kind of mechanical skill and brain activity to realise less RNG and higher TTK in the range I've specified is superior to this non-sense we have now. Bloom is a lazy attempt at lengthening TTK and we have way too much of it.

I don't want to see stupid comments like "LOL LTL #1 PLACE IN ASYLUM AGAINST BEST PLAYERS XD", I want to see how you play. From your comments, you play like LilyV3 (funny how the name even coincides...)

If you're as good as you claim, you will not get affected by this change everyone is proposing, you will adapt to it and be good (In fact, you'll win more fights if you are mechanically better than your opponent, as less RNG means it's all up to user error in tracking) It's for a greater good. And no, don't even start with the "mAp Is NoT mAdE fOr LoNg TtK" or anything similar.

With proper adjustments to mods (removing IR, making CJ a shotgun/sniper only mod, tweaking all character mods) and proper adjustments to all weapons across, it's for the greater good of the competitive integrity of this game and it'll finally be competitive for once in it's life if this occurs.

E.g. :
 

ntec:9-10STK (around 0.98s)
OCA: 9-10STK (around 1.01)
OBIR ttk is 1.2s according to APBdb so I'd say it can stay (playtests might reveal something different)
6-7STK obeya
3STK HVR & JG & CSG (HVR should have it's damage curve removed, the latter two should be with constant pellet patterns, ADS should give them tighter spread, hvr should be 100% accurate in ads regardless of HS)

Jumpscout coming back (also 3STK)

 

But most importantly, REMOVING BLOOM/RNG....

 

 

i dont even know why im replying to a guy that has no idea about anything other than apb... spooky world

Edited September 4, 2021 by qb

[vsb 6171]

11 minutes ago, qb said:

OBIR ttk is 1.2s according to APBdb so I'd say it can stay (playtests might reveal something different)

you definitely can't do this

 

if ttk is going to be increased then everything has to get smacked with a proportional increase first, only after there's more wiggle room without min ttk pushing right up against instant do individual weapons start getting dialed in

[LilyRain 674]

7 minutes ago, qb said:

This game was made on 0.9-1.1s TTK (even longer in RTW times due to mods) yet you persist on lower TTK being better, like all CoD kids claiming it's competitive when it's not.

Please, do yourself a favour and stop posting nonsense, you half-patootie everything without any thought. You clearly lack any kind of mechanical skill and brain activity to realise less RNG and higher TTK in the range I've specified is superior to this non-sense we have now. Bloom is a lazy attempt at lengthening TTK and we have way too much of it.

I don't want to see stupid comments like "LOL LTL #1 PLACE IN ASYLUM AGAINST BEST PLAYERS XD", I want to see how you play. From your comments, you play like LilyV3 (funny how the name even coincides...)

 

Typical low-quality response from someone who doesn't read, knows literally nothing nor even attempts to do their homework before typing, utterly disappointing. All you're doing is labeling yourself as someone to never be listened to but if that's what you want sure, it is your credibility and your loss. No matter, I'll make life easier for you.

 

Do you even know CoD? Clearly not. Here are typical time-to-kills in CoD:

 

Meanwhile, in THIS very thread, I've already vouched against ttk times being that low. Here, because you can't see, I've clearly placed it in a box for you: 

 

Again, reducing bloom and RNG is a wonderful thing, (I'd very much like them gone by next patch) which I ALSO happen to have vouched with in the same thread (lol, see how stupid you look now?). Here, have a look:


But again, reducing bloom doesn't justify increasing time-to-kill, especially when it is high enough as is. Those two things are completely different. You're going to have to QUALITATIVELY show why that would be a great idea, which you clearly can't.

 

"I don't want to see stupid comments like "LOL LTL #1 PLACE IN ASYLUM AGAINST BEST PLAYERS XD" because you're stupid enough to not be capable to play with such an ordeal yourself. You're talking like a low-tier player who can't perform without meta weapons so you don't want to have your delicate feelings hurt in that way. I'm sorry, you're just not relevant. Case and point.

 

And no, lol. You're also another person who think's I am Lilyv3. Lilyv3 is someone who played mainly in EU. My main character is not in EU.

[yourrandomnobody74 106]

31 minutes ago, glaciers said:

you definitely can't do this

 

if ttk is going to be increased then everything has to get smacked with a proportional increase first, only after there's more wiggle room without min ttk pushing right up against instant do individual weapons start getting dialed in

Like I've said, playtesting would be required to get a feel to dial down all numbers for weapons if 3BTK OBIR or 4BTK OBIR would be good.

Also, another thing, the main reason I'm an advocate for longer TTK is that I want to minttk all the time (~1s for NTEC etc.) if I'm on the target. Lengthening TTK by adding bloom is a lazy way of dealing with balancing (the current way of balancing)

A longer TTK is a MUST if one removes/reduces bloom to very small values, they complement each other. One cannot flourish without the other. The game pace will feel roughly the same (seen many comments claiming it'll make the game "slower" when in fact it'll probably increase it's play speed) while feeling more robust and snappier.

I'll show you a VERY VAGUE description of what I mean with higher TTK and less RNG (keep in mind, this video has different char mods and different weapon mods and doesn't have something that should come with these proposed balance changes, constant recoil patterns. It's something I'd like to see in all weapons. It'd argue this bloom also needs some tweaking)
https://youtu.be/jHDHd9jIxUY?t=302

 

Even if this whole idea doesn't flourish, I'd still like to see 100% accurate OBIR, Scout and HVR all weapons should have an accurate first shot at the very least now that I think of it... (regardless of having HS in it or not, it's stupid that a mod decides if you have less RNG or not on your first shot, HS should only adjust FOV) and adjusting NTEC back to slightly less bloomy and RNG heavy values

 

Edited September 4, 2021 by qb

[Flaws 1033]

Let me preface this by saying that I do not intend to offend or devalue anyone, not LO, not the SPCT nor the players. This is simply constructive criticism and a reality check which Little Orbit desperately need now more than ever before their game is forced to shut down. Please don't take personal offense by anything I've written here.

 

I cannot speak confidently about lowering or increasing TTK as that'd need extensive testing but I liked most of G1's balancing. I liked having less bloom with the current TTK and I think that most good players were fine with that. And yes, I am talking about the good players who put the most effort and time into learning the game and have the highest winrates and K/D ratios because that is, objectively, what makes a player good at a PvP game. And specifically in APB, due to its low population and high % of cheaters, I'd say that reputation also plays a big role in who should have a say on the matter. As in, that they should be widely recognised as a good player throughout the community (not just simply "popular" or "well known" as a name). And believe me when I say that I mean no offense to lesser players (yes, even if you are low-mid gold) but objectively, the high/top players should have the loudest voices in regards to balancing in every game. I want to stress that you're no less valuable as players but the people who've put the most time and effort in a game will understand it best and will know what needs adjusting better than anyone else. That's just the truth of it.

 

Little Orbit have taken the wrong approach of catering to lesser players however, which inevitably hurts the health of the game in the long term. In fact, we are currently seeing that happen in Apex Legends where Respawn have announced that they will be removing a movement mechanic called "tap-strafing" because it is a high skill ceiling mechanic and requires hundreds of hours to master to be used at its maximum potential. All of that in an attempt to cater to more casual players who would likely spend more money on cosmetics but will not have the time/willingness to sit down and master such a mechanic or skill. This announcement insantly became a sh*tstorm on twitter overnight, becoming their most retweeted tweet of all time and it was 90%+ super negative backlash on the decision.

 

We're seeing the exact same thing happening here, starting from the N-TEC 5 and then looking at other weapons which are being dumbed down more and more in favor of players who cannot/do not want to try to keep up with the highest level. The quality of the gunplay in APB is deteriorating at a rapid pace and the fault lies with management and who is being allowed to make changes to it. I also find it fascinating that its been 3 years of total and utter balancing failure and they've yet to change who is in charge of it or who they take advice from. I am willing to bet that not a single employee of Little Orbit really plays APB and they rely solely on the advice of the people who've won the popularity contest that was the SPCT recruitment when LO restarted the SPCT program again. If you haven't noticed, the majority of the SPCT consists/consisted of people that were talking to Matt the most when he joined the unofficial APB discord server back in the day regardless of how active they are in the game or how qualified they are for the position. Then more people were invited based on just being (mostly) liked in the community and not on actually having something to provide to the game.

 

It seems to me like some of the SPCTs (not all) are only really in it to wave around their badge and feel high and mighty because they've been chosen but they don't actually know what is best for the game. They are in this unique position where their voices matter more than the rest of the playerbase and they are able to shape the game more the way they see fit than what the game actually needs. Again, not everyone in the SPCT is like this, but some of them definitely are. The SPCT needs carefully picked out high/top tier players who would be in charge of balancing and then the rest will be set to different tasks where they are the strongest.

 

And if the fault doesn't actually lie within the SPCT then that's probably even worse because I'm willing to bet that no one that works at LO is exactly an APB enthusiast who's taken it upon themselves to become really good at the game on their private account and then be the one dealing with balancing behind the scenes.

 

Bottom line is that balancing should be mostly reverted to what we had before LO started fiddling with it, except for things like the Yukon firerate fix and HVR damage nerf and it should remain that way until the Engine Upgrade is done, working and released with a proper build.

[MonkaS 215]

I don't know when the last time anyone here was killed at min ttk(guns with .58 to .72) but it doesn't happen nearly as often as people think go in game on a dead server with a friend and just unload into them at point blank range and ask them if they could have reacted(reach cover or fire back enough to damage the enemy at least somewhat). This is worsened by the fact the game servers and netcode being awful and than you have apbs build in feature called 'garbage collection' which causes you to stutter for almost a second and you just won't even have a chance. Also please rework lag compensation.

Edited September 4, 2021 by MonkaS

[FakeBungo 248]

5 hours ago, Flaws said:

Let me preface this by saying that I do not intend to offend or devalue anyone, not LO, not the SPCT nor the players. This is simply constructive criticism and a reality check which Little Orbit desperately need now more than ever before their game is forced to shut down. Please don't take personal offense by anything I've written here.

 

I cannot speak confidently about lowering or increasing TTK as that'd need extensive testing but I liked most of G1's balancing. I liked having less bloom with the current TTK and I think that most good players were fine with that. And yes, I am talking about the good players who put the most effort and time into learning the game and have the highest winrates and K/D ratios because that is, objectively, what makes a player good at a PvP game. And specifically in APB, due to its low population and high % of cheaters, I'd say that reputation also plays a big role in who should have a say on the matter. As in, that they should be widely recognised as a good player throughout the community (not just simply "popular" or "well known" as a name). And believe me when I say that I mean no offense to lesser players (yes, even if you are low-mid gold) but objectively, the high/top players should have the loudest voices in regards to balancing in every game. I want to stress that you're no less valuable as players but the people who've put the most time and effort in a game will understand it best and will know what needs adjusting better than anyone else. That's just the truth of it.

 

Little Orbit have taken the wrong approach of catering to lesser players however, which inevitably hurts the health of the game in the long term. In fact, we are currently seeing that happen in Apex Legends where Respawn have announced that they will be removing a movement mechanic called "tap-strafing" because it is a high skill ceiling mechanic and requires hundreds of hours to master to be used at its maximum potential. All of that in an attempt to cater to more casual players who would likely spend more money on cosmetics but will not have the time/willingness to sit down and master such a mechanic or skill. This announcement insantly became a sh*tstorm on twitter overnight, becoming their most retweeted tweet of all time and it was 90%+ super negative backlash on the decision.

 

We're seeing the exact same thing happening here, starting from the N-TEC 5 and then looking at other weapons which are being dumbed down more and more in favor of players who cannot/do not want to try to keep up with the highest level. The quality of the gunplay in APB is deteriorating at a rapid pace and the fault lies with management and who is being allowed to make changes to it. I also find it fascinating that its been 3 years of total and utter balancing failure and they've yet to change who is in charge of it or who they take advice from. I am willing to bet that not a single employee of Little Orbit really plays APB and they rely solely on the advice of the people who've won the popularity contest that was the SPCT recruitment when LO restarted the SPCT program again. If you haven't noticed, the majority of the SPCT consists/consisted of people that were talking to Matt the most when he joined the unofficial APB discord server back in the day regardless of how active they are in the game or how qualified they are for the position. Then more people were invited based on just being (mostly) liked in the community and not on actually having something to provide to the game.

 

It seems to me like some of the SPCTs (not all) are only really in it to wave around their badge and feel high and mighty because they've been chosen but they don't actually know what is best for the game. They are in this unique position where their voices matter more than the rest of the playerbase and they are able to shape the game more the way they see fit than what the game actually needs. Again, not everyone in the SPCT is like this, but some of them definitely are. The SPCT needs carefully picked out high/top tier players who would be in charge of balancing and then the rest will be set to different tasks where they are the strongest.

 

And if the fault doesn't actually lie within the SPCT then that's probably even worse because I'm willing to bet that no one that works at LO is exactly an APB enthusiast who's taken it upon themselves to become really good at the game on their private account and then be the one dealing with balancing behind the scenes.

 

Bottom line is that balancing should be mostly reverted to what we had before LO started fiddling with it, except for things like the Yukon firerate fix and HVR damage nerf and it should remain that way until the Engine Upgrade is done, working and released with a proper build.

ntec is one of the easiest guns in the game to use, always has been.

[proxie 271]

7 hours ago, Flaws said:

Let me preface this by saying that I do not intend to offend or devalue anyone, not LO, not the SPCT nor the players. This is simply constructive criticism and a reality check which Little Orbit desperately need now more than ever before their game is forced to shut down. Please don't take personal offense by anything I've written here.

 

I cannot speak confidently about lowering or increasing TTK as that'd need extensive testing but I liked most of G1's balancing. I liked having less bloom with the current TTK and I think that most good players were fine with that. And yes, I am talking about the good players who put the most effort and time into learning the game and have the highest winrates and K/D ratios because that is, objectively, what makes a player good at a PvP game. And specifically in APB, due to its low population and high % of cheaters, I'd say that reputation also plays a big role in who should have a say on the matter. As in, that they should be widely recognised as a good player throughout the community (not just simply "popular" or "well known" as a name). And believe me when I say that I mean no offense to lesser players (yes, even if you are low-mid gold) but objectively, the high/top players should have the loudest voices in regards to balancing in every game. I want to stress that you're no less valuable as players but the people who've put the most time and effort in a game will understand it best and will know what needs adjusting better than anyone else. That's just the truth of it.

 

Little Orbit have taken the wrong approach of catering to lesser players however, which inevitably hurts the health of the game in the long term. In fact, we are currently seeing that happen in Apex Legends where Respawn have announced that they will be removing a movement mechanic called "tap-strafing" because it is a high skill ceiling mechanic and requires hundreds of hours to master to be used at its maximum potential. All of that in an attempt to cater to more casual players who would likely spend more money on cosmetics but will not have the time/willingness to sit down and master such a mechanic or skill. This announcement insantly became a sh*tstorm on twitter overnight, becoming their most retweeted tweet of all time and it was 90%+ super negative backlash on the decision.

 

We're seeing the exact same thing happening here, starting from the N-TEC 5 and then looking at other weapons which are being dumbed down more and more in favor of players who cannot/do not want to try to keep up with the highest level. The quality of the gunplay in APB is deteriorating at a rapid pace and the fault lies with management and who is being allowed to make changes to it. I also find it fascinating that its been 3 years of total and utter balancing failure and they've yet to change who is in charge of it or who they take advice from. I am willing to bet that not a single employee of Little Orbit really plays APB and they rely solely on the advice of the people who've won the popularity contest that was the SPCT recruitment when LO restarted the SPCT program again. If you haven't noticed, the majority of the SPCT consists/consisted of people that were talking to Matt the most when he joined the unofficial APB discord server back in the day regardless of how active they are in the game or how qualified they are for the position. Then more people were invited based on just being (mostly) liked in the community and not on actually having something to provide to the game.

 

It seems to me like some of the SPCTs (not all) are only really in it to wave around their badge and feel high and mighty because they've been chosen but they don't actually know what is best for the game. They are in this unique position where their voices matter more than the rest of the playerbase and they are able to shape the game more the way they see fit than what the game actually needs. Again, not everyone in the SPCT is like this, but some of them definitely are. The SPCT needs carefully picked out high/top tier players who would be in charge of balancing and then the rest will be set to different tasks where they are the strongest.

 

And if the fault doesn't actually lie within the SPCT then that's probably even worse because I'm willing to bet that no one that works at LO is exactly an APB enthusiast who's taken it upon themselves to become really good at the game on their private account and then be the one dealing with balancing behind the scenes.

 

Bottom line is that balancing should be mostly reverted to what we had before LO started fiddling with it, except for things like the Yukon firerate fix and HVR damage nerf and it should remain that way until the Engine Upgrade is done, working and released with a proper build.

Wrong opinion.