ISSR-B Rework

[Cr0 328]

2 hours ago, GhosT said:

 

Take a wild guess why we adjusted the SWARMs Hard Damage.

Because you thought it'd make it more balanced. I think the patch was pretty bad. It targeted incorrect things much of the time (except for some weak cars which got increased HP).
Swarm was fine.

 

Reduced AAEPD 'Volcano JC' max hard damage from 1227 -> 800

- The explosion damage radius was a much larger problem than the hard damage, since the explosion radius is what makes it annoyingly spammable against players. You can miss a player with a too large margin and still do damage.

 

Reduced ISSR-B hard damage from 72.9 -> 45

- A little bit too much damage reduction.

 

Reduced ISSR-A hard damage from 70.1 -> 51

- This gun is bad enough. Now with the reduction in hard damage and nothing to make it better, which it desperately needs, it's just a pure downgrade on an already weak weapon. It needs a buff with just a little bit slower spread increase (very low accuracy in close range, no matter how close you get almost).

 

Reduced SWARM hard damage from 50.7 -> 40.95

- Was fine ( as in good = fine). At teh very leas,t the reduction was too steep.

- The pre set recoil pattern is also a strange choice since some weapons now then have set recoil patterns while most are random. Balanced games don't have that. There needs to be a consistent theme in recoil. Either it's random across the board, within the recoil parameters, or it's set recoil patterns for all guns. It's inconsistent and confusing to new players also.

 

Vegas 4x4: 1,350 -> 1,150

Vegas: 1,350 -> 1300

If that is correct, Osmaw can now one-shot one vegas, but not the other. It's basically the same car with different steering. Again, inconsistent. It shouldn't be a pure 1 shot with the osmaw.

 

Not a very good patch.
 

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by Cr0

[Rhexx 39]

TLDR:

• Increase ISSR-B hard damage from 45 -> 65

• Decrease ISSR-B Magazine size from 12 -> 10

• Remove ISSR-B ability to be used in vehicle windows

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-bxgx7h7Uvk0Pte6Uw5L8h84Cn7M4i3Og2_PvGPG8rQ/edit?usp=sharing

 

Linked is a spreadsheet that shows both pre-nerf and post-nerf ISSR-B damage values including STK and TTK on both pre-nerf and post-nerf vehicles (including the use of Steel Plating 3). The spreadsheet also compares STK and TTK of several other weapons including the DMR-AV, SWARM (pre and post nerf), and CR762.

My proposed ISSR-B damages values allow the weapon to be used against vehicles while giving anti-vehicle focused weapons their spotlight.

While I do believe the DMR-AV requires a buff to bring it into a good position as an AV weapon; and that the SWARM still outshines the DMR-AV in its AV capacity while still being a good pick to use against infantry, this is a discussion for another time.

 

Disclaimer: These values are calculated with reload speed and magazine size accounted for, assuming the weapon has no modifications/presets and that the weapon is fired at maximum possible speed and every shot hits within drop-off range.

[Kempington 295]

The ISSR-B prior to this was more versatile than an N-TEC. It literally did everything. It was a threatening sniper, incredible AV cannon and had the hipfire to play semi-competently in CQC. You could burst out two quick shots for an insta-halving of a target's health as support or a finisher and you could almost stop any vehicle from escaping with a mag dump (which didn't drop off hard damage until beyond 83M).

 

It was far too good at AV, given its potential against players at any range and still being fully mobile, so dropping the AV aspect was a good move.

 

As mentioned, you could stop chasing vehicles whilst leaning out a window for Christ sake. 

 

Even with the AV reduction, the ISSR-B brings a multi-role weapon to the table that's capable of supporting any gunfight you throw at it, as well as comfortably take on the majority of the roster from favoured positions/ranges.

 

Imagine the OSCAR, but now giving it 83m range and the accuracy to back it up. It's the closest comparison I can make (regarding the ability to fight at any range in its effective range with ease).

Edited August 18, 2020 by Kempington

[R3ACT3M 489]

On 8/15/2020 at 10:25 PM, Rhexx said:

So with the recent update with vehicle health reductions and the dogear nerf, LO, was it your intention to make the weapon absolutely useless?

 

It was broken because of the hard damage

[Rhexx 39]

17 minutes ago, R3ACT3M said:

It was broken because of the hard damage

Yes and I address that with my proposed ISSR-B changes. Please refer to my spreadsheet

[BlatMan 711]

The ISSR-B feels like it's not meant to kill players or vehicles. It's like the STAR of the rifles. It doesn't excel in anything. Upping the the hard damage to 65 sounds good. I'm not sure how I feel about not being able to use it out of a vehicle's window, but that's because car surfer exists. That mod is basically an exploit that allows you to use restricted weapons from a moving vehicle. There needs to be an alternative for low rank players.

 

5 hours ago, Kempington said:

Imagine the OSCAR, but now giving it 83m range and the accuracy to back it up. It's the closest comparison I can make (regarding the ability to fight at any range in its effective range with ease).

The Dogear's minimum ttk is higher than the OSCAR, and it has so much bloom you can't min ttk in most situations. Have you used either of these weapons?

Edited August 18, 2020 by SquirrelFace

[Kempington 295]

I need to ask if you have.

 

ISSR-B has incredible jump shot accuracy that can 2 shot burst in mid air with good consistency. Whilst you won't necessarily min-ttk ever with it, that's not all there is to a weapon in apb.

 

I must admit my last post was when I was half asleep and exaggerated a bit, but I would like to say that if you know what you're doing, the ISSR-B is pretty powerful at all ranges inside its effective range.

[GhosT 1301]

12 hours ago, Cr0 said:

Because you thought it'd make it more balanced. I think the patch was pretty bad. It targeted incorrect things much of the time (except for some weak cars which got increased HP).
Swarm was fine.

 

Reduced AAEPD 'Volcano JC' max hard damage from 1227 -> 800

- The explosion damage radius was a much larger problem than the hard damage, since the explosion radius is what makes it annoyingly spammable against players. You can miss a player with a too large margin and still do damage.

 

Reduced ISSR-B hard damage from 72.9 -> 45

- A little bit too much damage reduction.

 

Reduced ISSR-A hard damage from 70.1 -> 51

- This gun is bad enough. Now with the reduction in hard damage and nothing to make it better, which it desperately needs, it's just a pure downgrade on an already weak weapon. It needs a buff with just a little bit slower spread increase (very low accuracy in close range, no matter how close you get almost).

 

Reduced SWARM hard damage from 50.7 -> 40.95

- Was fine ( as in good = fine). At teh very leas,t the reduction was too steep.

- The pre set recoil pattern is also a strange choice since some weapons now then have set recoil patterns while most are random. Balanced games don't have that. There needs to be a consistent theme in recoil. Either it's random across the board, within the recoil parameters, or it's set recoil patterns for all guns. It's inconsistent and confusing to new players also.

 

Vegas 4x4: 1,350 -> 1,150

Vegas: 1,350 -> 1300

If that is correct, Osmaw can now one-shot one vegas, but not the other. It's basically the same car with different steering. Again, inconsistent. It shouldn't be a pure 1 shot with the osmaw.

 

Not a very good patch.
 

 

 

 

If you think the patch was pretty bad, fair enough, you're entitled to your own opinion.

 

I do agree that the AAEPD would rather need additional changes against that 100m anti-player effectivity. Hard damage change was fine and very much needed though.

 

As Kempington said, the ISSR-B is too much of a good gun, even against vehicles, and you could fire it hanging out a window. Not okay.

 

ISSR-A, yeah, already a bad and underused gun. This was adjusted to match the ISSR-Bs values, not to make the gun any worse.

 

SWARM at 50.7 hard damage wasn't fine against the new vehicle health pools, trust me, we tested that thoroughly. It performed too well against players and vehicles at the same time.

Random recoil + patterns were always a thing since recoil was introduced to APB. Check the SHAW and ALIG for example.

 

The vegas changes - the 4x4 isn't "basically the same car with different steering."

It's very much a different car, handles extremely different and is very fast at all times.

The regular vegas however is a brick that just asks to get killed unless you're already moving, and if you're moving, you're moving in a straight line.

There was zero reason to use the regular vegas over the 4x4, and it very much needs the higher health pool to make up for its slowness.

[Cr0 328]

38 minutes ago, GhosT said:

 

 

If you think the patch was pretty bad, fair enough, you're entitled to your own opinion.

 

I do agree that the AAEPD would rather need additional changes against that 100m anti-player effectivity. Hard damage change was fine and very much needed though.

 

As Kempington said, the ISSR-B is too much of a good gun, even against vehicles, and you could fire it hanging out a window. Not okay.

 

ISSR-A, yeah, already a bad and underused gun. This was adjusted to match the ISSR-Bs values, not to make the gun any worse.

 

SWARM at 50.7 hard damage wasn't fine against the new vehicle health pools, trust me, we tested that thoroughly. It performed too well against players and vehicles at the same time.

Random recoil + patterns were always a thing since recoil was introduced to APB. Check the SHAW and ALIG for example.

 

The vegas changes - the 4x4 isn't "basically the same car with different steering."

It's very much a different car, handles extremely different and is very fast at all times.

The regular vegas however is a brick that just asks to get killed unless you're already moving, and if you're moving, you're moving in a straight line.

There was zero reason to use the regular vegas over the 4x4, and it very much needs the higher health pool to make up for its slowness.

 

I don't see what is wrong with firing out of a car windows with a gun that is above average AV, only that the AV damage was slightly too high.

Also what kemp says about how it's usable in CQC is true for several other long(ish) range guns, so that doesn't add a point to it being above average in terms of versatiliy. It's just like some other guns in that specific regard (I'm not saying it's not versatile though, of course).

 

The hard damage of the ISSR-A is actually higher than ISSR-B (unless the database is incorrect). Of course it wasn't intended that ISSR-A should be a worse gun, but the end result is a pure downgrade.

 

Niether the Shaw or Alig has any type of predictable horizontal recoil. The Swarm does however.

 

I think I changed my mind about the 4x4, reading your comment about it, in regards to how it handles, speed etc. But a 1 shot from Osmaw vs an undamaged 4x4 is still not right.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Cr0

[Rhexx 39]

1 hour ago, Kempington said:

I need to ask if you have.

 

ISSR-B has incredible jump shot accuracy that can 2 shot burst in mid air with good consistency. Whilst you won't necessarily min-ttk ever with it, that's not all there is to a weapon in apb.

 

I must admit my last post was when I was half asleep and exaggerated a bit, but I would like to say that if you know what you're doing, the ISSR-B is pretty powerful at all ranges inside its effective range.

Theoretically yes, but on a practical level, noone uses it I'm that manner in CQC. Maybe as a once in a blue moon clutch. In every situation, it is more practical and reliable to draw your secondary weapon. There just isn't enough of a reason for people to pick the ISSR-B over the Obeya purely as an anti-infantry weapon. As the obeya wins every time unless it misses, the ISSR hits first, or it's outside the effective range.

I'd like to refer you to my spreadsheet on STK and TTK with the ISSR-B compared to other similar weapon's hard damage values, if you haven't seen it already. It also includes my proposed weapon changes. 

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-bxgx7h7Uvk0Pte6Uw5L8h84Cn7M4i3Og2_PvGPG8rQ/edit?usp=sharing

[BlatMan 711]

1 hour ago, Kempington said:

I need to ask if you have.

 

ISSR-B has incredible jump shot accuracy that can 2 shot burst in mid air with good consistency. Whilst you won't necessarily min-ttk ever with it, that's not all there is to a weapon in apb.

 

I must admit my last post was when I was half asleep and exaggerated a bit, but I would like to say that if you know what you're doing, the ISSR-B is pretty powerful at all ranges inside its effective range.

The jump shooting is useful for shooting over high walls, but otherwise it's a gimmick.

[CookiePuss 5378]

21 minutes ago, SquirrelFace said:

The jump shooting is useful for shooting over high walls, but otherwise it's a gimmick.

2 shot is 530 damage in one jump

by comparison the Scout does 550 in one jump

[Rhexx 39]

12 minutes ago, CookiePuss said:

2 shot is 530 damage in one jump

by comparison the Scout does 550 in one jump

I'm gonna call you on some BS here. Who the f*** is hitting 2 shots per jump consistently?

[CookiePuss 5378]

9 minutes ago, Rhexx said:

I'm gonna call you on some BS here. Who the f*** is hitting 2 shots per jump consistently?

Anyone  with decent aim really, Im not sure what you mean.

[Rhexx 39]

2 minutes ago, CookiePuss said:

Anyone  with decent aim really, Im not sure what you mean.

Shooting at braindead bronzes and silvers does not count, as it's practically a shooting gallery. Stop basing changes around the lowest common denominator.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Rhexx

[CookiePuss 5378]

1 hour ago, Rhexx said:

Shooting at braindead bronzes and silvers does not count, as it's practically a shooting gallery. Stop basing changes around the lowest common denominator.

But this is an argument based upon the opposite, not low skill but rather high skill gameplay.

 

Are you sure you meant to quote me?

 

[PingOVER9000 189]

2 hours ago, CookiePuss said:

I'm gonna call you on some BS here. Who the f*** is hitting 2 shots per jump consistently?

 

2 hours ago, CookiePuss said:

Anyone  with decent aim really, Im not sure what you mean.

 

Anyone with a decent aim kill you before u land 2 shots midair and/ or quickswitch to secondary 

 

4 hours ago, Kempington said:

I need to ask if you have.

 

ISSR-B has incredible jump shot accuracy that can 2 shot burst in mid air with good consistency. Whilst you won't necessarily min-ttk ever with it, that's not all there is to a weapon in apb.

 

I must admit my last post was when I was half asleep and exaggerated a bit, but I would like to say that if you know what you're doing, the ISSR-B is pretty powerful at all ranges inside its effective range.

 

you exaggerated kinda a little more of  a bit regards of the actual situation of ISSR-B.

 

Nobody have had purchased it in past (incluse me),  actually I dont see any particolar reason of using it instead of a  Scout (or HVR / Obir etc).

 

17 hours ago, Cr0 said:

Not a very good patch.
 

it's a awesome and good patch, one of the best one.

 

Just need a little rectification somewhere...

 

[Rhexx 39]

54 minutes ago, CookiePuss said:

But this is an argument based upon the opposite, not low skill but rather high skill gameplay.

 

Are you sure you meant to quote me?

 

I'm done trying to have a reasonable discussion on the viability of the weapon if were just going to devolve into "just play better lol"

I doubt you even looked at the spreadsheet.

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by Rhexx

[CookiePuss 5378]

27 minutes ago, Rhexx said:

I'm done trying to have a reasonable discussion on the viability of the weapon if were just going to devolve into "just play better lol

Never once did I say that.

It's as viable jump-shooting as the scout.

No need to get upset.

[R3ACT3M 489]

15 hours ago, Rhexx said:

Yes and I address that with my proposed ISSR-B changes. Please refer to my spreadsheet

no

[CookiePuss 5378]

3 hours ago, PingOVER9000 said:

Anyone with a decent aim kill you before u land 2 shots midair and/ or quickswitch to secondary 

lol true

[Tensor 2]

   

Your idea with these changes devolves down into "HURR DURR GUN TOO GUD" instead of WHY is it the optimal choice; and look into the variables that should be performing the role better and propose changes that make them a more compelling option against the Dog Ear; THEN adjust the gun accordingly against those to make sure it can still perfom without completely neutering it; for example the original Trouble Maker which took it from completely dominating almost everything barring extreme long range combat and vehicles to farting at people; and had been an entirely terrible choice for what, four years until the recent resurgence of it?

 

The other issue behind why the Dog Ear is apparently "too good" is that I rarely match against anyone who ever uses it. No one has any experience in fighting against it to counter it and underestimated it due the lack of adoption by people for a long time. It's a pressure weapon that requires aggressive gameplay and good positioning to do anything with; it's a 4 hit kill so you're hardly killing someone instantly. 

 

Rhexx clearly has noticed that the DMR-AV has been lacking in it's actual role for a long time; as I have as well. I never used to use it as an AV gun and would consistently use it against players just because of my preference to it's handling compared to other snipers before using the Dog Ear almost full time.

 

 

Easy fix; buff the other weapons to actually perform their jobs and then adjust the offenders within reasonable limits of those so they remain practical and you're not limiting the scope of gameplay styles and preferences.

 

Crap like this is why I avoid the forums like the plague. It's a pissing match of people who are incompetent and cry about the smallest things without injecting any kind of critical thought and coming up with your own solution within the toolbox of the game; or they're just asking for motorbikes and the racing district.

 

But who am I; I'm just someone who's been invested in this game since RTW CBT; I it's not as if I know what I'm talking about or anything.  

 

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by Tensor

[Delete884943468320878423 172]

Making more weapons useless seems to be one of their main priority, guess they'll never work on making this game actually better, but only listening to that yellow community members suggestions, basically making this game only one sided, while the usually abused side, gets more abuse and reduction in numbers as usual.

 

Balance iis more heavy than it used to be i'm afraid.

But don't worry, there is cheaters to match their exigent needs hopefully... cuz even those are probably getting tired of paying for updated cheats by now, as there is not much to enjoy killing now-days, other than some here and there superior scrubs lol.

[Motorola 107]

LO doesnt want people using AV guns they are dumbing down the gameplay by just needing a conc nade to kill any car... this way any braindead player can kill any car.

 

With this patch you dont need to waste money on any AV weapons anymore just learn how to throw a nade. I suspect sales of Alig, DMR-AV, Dogear, SWARMs, Showstoppers and other hard damage boosted weapons to plumet in the 3rd and 4th quarters of 2020 by about 93% because by equipping these guns you will be hindering your player killing performance and your car killing performance will be overkill.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Motorola

[DouglasFalcon 125]

Hello I only play sniper rifles and I main DMR AV

 

Please, PLEASE, stop doing your calcs only basing yourself on max damage. If you guys had used DMR AV once in your life you'd know that it's impossible to get a full max dmg mag on a moving car, you'll usually get 2 max dmg shots at best.

DMR AV is decent against cars, but eh otherwise. Dog Ear used to be MUCH better than it at dealing with cars (due to much faster fire rate, higher movement speed, and many other factors) and now it's just a very strong sniper (imo) that can still threaten weakened cars if needed.

 

I'm personally more on the side of "buff weaker guns" instead of "nerf stronger guns", but I can see what they wanted to do in this patch. Still, as many people mentioned, DMR AV won't see more usage until they'll address some of its core weaknesses that also plague the SD variant, like its atrocious equip time coupled with its bad mobility. But Dog Ear is fine lol that weapon is still good and y'all just bad