PMG Nerf When?

[Abduct / Devote 69]

Not sure how the point went by your head 404, but the whole reason the PMG "needs" a nerf in the first place is because it's main competitor got hit. When you nerf something, you go to the next best thing no? Pretty sure if anything, my point has been proven multiple times with how nerf meta has absolutely failed, and not resulted in diversity but in another gun taking up the mantle. The PMG is strong, I have played recently and gotten to experience it. It does not feel "broken" though, sure strong is a good definition, but it honestly feels like people get min ttk'd one or two times and just have to post something about it. You've pointed out in the ATAC thread in regards to this "buff stuff to compete" can be just as bad. Yes, I agree, mindlessly buffing is an issue. I don't think things should be done mindlessly though, and for w.e reason with nerfing everyone seems to have plenty of blind faith but not when it comes to buffs. Why is that? 

Edited May 28, 2020 by Abduct / Devote

[vsb 6171]

10 minutes ago, Abduct / Devote said:

Not sure how the point went by your head 404, but the whole reason the PMG "needs" a nerf in the first place is because it's main competitor got hit. When you nerf something, you go to the next best thing no? Pretty sure if anything, my point has been proven multiple times with how nerf meta has absolutely failed, and not resulted in diversity but in another gun taking up the mantle. The PMG is strong, I have played recently and gotten to experience it. It does not feel "broken" though, sure strong is a good definition, but it honestly feels like people get min ttk'd one or two times and just have to post something about it. You've pointed out in the ATAC thread in regards to this "buff stuff to compete" can be just as bad. Yes, I agree, mindlessly buffing is an issue. I don't things should be done mindlessly though, and for w.e reason with nerfing everyone seems to have plenty of blind faith but not when it comes to buffs. Why is that? 

barring exceptions like the troublemaker and the massive oca overbuff the pmg has been the top smg since g1 reworked it in 2013, long before the oca was ever reverted

 

we had a few months where the 2 were still kind of equal altho the pmg was still slightly better, which was just fine, and then g1 tacked some extra range on it and it became unnecessarily strong

 

personally i'd prefer if smgs were reworked to mitigate initial rng (which would require a bunch of other tweaks anyway) but thats another discussion altogether

[Lign 361]

21 minutes ago, Abduct / Devote said:

Not sure how the point went by your head 404, but the whole reason the PMG "needs" a nerf in the first place is because it's main competitor got hit. When you nerf something, you go to the next best thing no? Pretty sure if anything, my point has been proven multiple times with how nerf meta has absolutely failed, and not resulted in diversity but in another gun taking up the mantle. The PMG is strong, I have played recently and gotten to experience it. It does not feel "broken" though, sure strong is a good definition, but it honestly feels like people get min ttk'd one or two times and just have to post something about it. You've pointed out in the ATAC thread in regards to this "buff stuff to compete" can be just as bad. Yes, I agree, mindlessly buffing is an issue. I don't things should be done mindlessly though, and for w.e reason with nerfing everyone seems to have plenty of blind faith but not when it comes to buffs. Why is that? 

The next best thing will be jg or csg. Both are the strongest cqc. PMG is the only one smg that can compete against them. There's another strong smg manic but it's locked behind JT or Pay wall, so I doubt we will see it a lot. OCA is terrible after ttk nerf. It lacks of accuracy. With the current shotgun balance I'd equate oca ttk with jg and keep pmg ttk as csg.

[Noob_Guardian 417]

6 hours ago, Lign said:

The next best thing will be jg or csg. Both are the strongest cqc. PMG is the only one smg that can compete against them. There's another strong smg manic but it's locked behind JT or Pay wall, so I doubt we will see it a lot. OCA is terrible after ttk nerf. It lacks of accuracy. With the current shotgun balance I'd equate oca ttk with jg and keep pmg ttk as csg.

 

OCA was the most balanced SMG in the games existence. They decided to "buff it" initially via faster ttk, they then made CJ effect it, and THEN they decided to undo the faster ttk.

 

Overall the OCA is one weapon that should have never been touched aside from CJ 3 having an effect on it. PMG has been an issue since it got buffed initially. Hell, back then OCA was used almost as much as the broken CSG was, so that's arguably not true about OCA being terrible. OCA isn't meant to be used much past 15m. The problem is that PMG has better accuracy at range (ontop of hitting like a truck), and the exact same ttk.

 

G1 buffed the PMG several times, and ended up making it too strong, and instead of tweaking it better to balance it, they left it as is.

 

Shotguns rule the sub 5-8m fights, OCA comes in up to ~15-20m, PMG goes up to ~30. However PMG doesn't suffer from a slower rof for its better accuracy and range.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Noob_Guardian

[CookiePuss 5378]

.67 OCA

 

 

 

.... fixed

[ExoticZ 131]

8 hours ago, CookiePuss said:

.67 OCA

 

 

 

.... fixed

That, and reduce PMG's effective range.

[Tenginima 74]

And just as I said would happen, did happen, nerf the NTEC, combine it with some other nerfs (OCA specifically) and we would end up exactly where we are right now, strange that innit? Almost as if I know what i'm talking about, shocker, I know.

Also this didn't fix the issue with APB's meta, only enhanced it, and just as I said in my numerous NTEC nerf posts, we essentially just moved the goal post, instead of putting the ball in the net. 

[Noob_Guardian 417]

14 hours ago, Tenginima said:

And just as I said would happen, did happen, nerf the NTEC, combine it with some other nerfs (OCA specifically) and we would end up exactly where we are right now, strange that innit? Almost as if I know what i'm talking about, shocker, I know.

Also this didn't fix the issue with APB's meta, only enhanced it, and just as I said in my numerous NTEC nerf posts, we essentially just moved the goal post, instead of putting the ball in the net. 

OCA never needed buffed to begin with so i don't know what you're going on about. All they did was litterally revert it to prebuff ttk. That's not the issue here.

 

PMG got overbuffed in 2013 and it's been an issue since.

 

Nerfing the NTEC was necessary regardless, the PMG however has been an issue long before the issues with the NTEC became known (you can thank HB for hiding them).

 

The goalpost never moved, it's just that everyone was more preoccupied with the NTEC and the overpowered shotguns, rather than the PMG like they normally would have been after the shotgun rework. Just because one "topic" gains more prevalence and "hides" an issue, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, nor didn't before hand.

 

Merged.

 

16 hours ago, ExoticZ said:

That, and reduce PMG's effective range.

Or just increase PMG's ttk slightly so that it's ease of use, range, and damage are better balanced overall.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Noob_Guardian

[R3ACT3M 489]

Why is this thread still here?

[Tenginima 74]

10 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

OCA never needed buffed to begin with so i don't know what you're going on about. All they did was litterally revert it to prebuff ttk. That's not the issue here. // The OCA needed some type of buff, a buff in between the overbuffed OCA and the one we have today would be the best way to do it, aka the OCA after the first ttk buff (firerate) not the one after, the one after overdid it. Also the Cooling jacket nerf on the OCA is terrible, as even CJ1 ruins that gun's bloom, making that mod essentially useless. This wasn't a problem when it was buffed in both areas as you could use CJ1 or 2 (as the gun was overall slighlty more accurate, less bloom) and it already had a quicker firerate, which meant that  CJ wasn't as "needed". Compare that to the PMG, up to CJ2 you will get a barely noticeable change in bloom, only CJ3 adds a significant downside. Also the PMG, like the whispers have a crouch modifier, the stock OCA doesn't, which even before the nerf to the OCA, made the PMG overall better. Was the PMG ever OP? No, it isn't what it should be however. i've never thought the PMG is op, but rather a gun that isn't fitting with its current design. I want a PMG change, not a nerf. I would go about it like this, either make the PMG shot slower or have one more STK, but make it a bit to a lot more accurate, so that it isn't the RNG cannon it currenly is. The reason why the PMG is perceived as OP is because all other competitors got nerfed, and also because when you have good RNG with the PMG you get insane TTK's at 30m+. This is a fundamental  design problem with a weapon, as if a weapon is OP when RNG is good, but kind of "eh" when RNG is bad, that proves that the gun itself is in a bad spot, and needs a CHANGE, nethier nerf or buff. 

Effectively, the PMG when RNG is good has a low effective TTK, what is effective ttk? it is the more reasonable TTK that you will achieve overall, basically, the AMG, NFA9 and SHAW has super low TTK's but all of these weapons (except the AMG) has a hard time reaching their minimum TTK, the SHAW because of its recoil, NFA9 because of randomness, this means that in some fights you will min TTK people in as such of a short time as  almost 0.5 sec, or you will get a 1+ sec ttk. This means that these weapons are seen as kind of "eh" because of a bad effective TTK. Basically, effective TTK is the TTK that isn't necessarily low or high, but a TTK that can be consistently achieved. This is why the NTEC was perceived as OP, as it had a low effective TTK, more because of how the gun worked, not because of some misguided view of OPness. 

This is why low effective TTK weapons combined with rather easy to use mechanics will always be superior to other type of guns, and in turn used as meta weapons (mostly). 

 

PMG got overbuffed in 2013 and it's been an issue since. // ^ Point debunked above.

 

Nerfing the NTEC was necessary regardless, the PMG however has been an issue long before the issues with the NTEC became known (you can thank HB for hiding them). // There was never an issue with the NTEC, nerfing it proved my point, as in case you haven't noticed, the NTEC is more or less the exact same, you just can't jump around corners with it, but due to the fact that the jumping got nerfed, people, instead of learning to play around it, went to PMG's, shotguns and rifles. This is more due to the psychology of "nerf = shit gun". The NTEC still has the lowest effective TTK of all AR's, it is still the most moddable, it is still overall a great AR. But those who want to jump around corners with AR's and overall non intended CQC weapons? They went to FAR's and OBIR's instead, just as I predicted.

This is exactly what I was talking about before, this is also why the goal post got moved and never fixed, as I said, Jumping was never an issue with the NTEC, sure it could win some CQC battles, but you'd be better of combining NTEC with FBW cqc tbh, and again, you can do all that jumping crap with every other AR and rifle in the game, which again, proved my point, as now people just went over to those weapons and jumps around corners with them instead, it never fixed the core issue of the game and before you say it, no, nerfing all weapons jump accuracy will still not fix the issue, as again, the problems with CQC is that a lot of CQC guns are just not good enough in CQC when you consider that they can do jack shit medium or long ranged, compared to other weapon classes. This is again, why nerfing certain weapons won't fix the core problems with CQC in this game, and if you nerf the PMG, you'll just add more fuel to the fire of a super stale meta.

Also shotguns were just poor, not op per say but poor, some shotguns were op with rayscaling though, like thunder and nfas.

 

10 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

 

The goalpost never moved, it's just that everyone was more preoccupied with the NTEC and the overpowered shotguns, rather than the PMG like they normally would have been after the shotgun rework. Just because one "topic" gains more prevalence and "hides" an issue, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, nor didn't before hand. // ^ Point debunked above.

 

Merged.

 

 

 

[CookiePuss 5378]

ok ok ok...
.67 OCA

.70 PMG

both have 30m range
this is balanced by the PMG's greater accuracy

 

 

there... fixed

 

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by CookiePuss

[Noob_Guardian 417]

On 5/30/2020 at 8:26 AM, CookiePuss said:

ok ok ok...
.67 OCA

.70 PMG

both have 30m range
this is balanced by the PMG's greater accuracy

 

 

there... fixed

 

 

I did the math for that up to 10 shots for for PMG in comparison to each weapon so people can understand what that "change" does. For each bullet of the PMG, i calculated the bullets that would be fired by the OCA "if" fired at the exact time.

  

Shots fired by the pmg  at what interval vs shots fired vs the oca by the PMG's interval

 

 Time         PMG .7                     OCA .7                        OCA .67

                0.145                         0.0875                         0.08375

.67               4                              7                                  8

.7                 5                              8                                  9

.87               6                              9                                 10

1.015            7                             11                                12

1.16              8                             13                                13

1.305            9                             14                                15

1.45             10                            16                                 17

 

You may feel there's an error with the timing at 1.16, however 0.08375 x 14 = 1.1725, which means that it wouldn't be firing until 14 shots until 1.17, not 1.16. So the normal OCA has the same "13 shots fired" at the same time buffed oca when the PMG fires 8 shots.

 

---------------         -----------------             ------------------            -------------------

 

I personally "don't" feel that this change would mean much when it means to balance in comparison to the pmg, the OCA and cqc weapons already have an advantage against every other weapon ingame that aren't in the same niche class/niche. "1" more bullet downrange faster than normal in most cases is not anything to "gawk" at though. I don't feel that "re-buffing" the OCA is necessary when the PMG got overbuffed initially, this change would closen the gap slightly, however it would also re-widen the gap between it and AR's like the STAR, cobra and FAR which are meant to be more capable in CQC as well, and widen the gap between it and other cqc weapons. We can agree to disagree on that, which is fine, i never felt the OCA buff was necessary,  so i'd be hard pressed to find a reason to re-buff it when I feel the PMG had needed a buff, but got overbuffed in the process.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Noob_Guardian

[Darkzero3802 611]

On 5/26/2020 at 10:29 AM, CookiePuss said:

I told you to stay out of bronze districts.

When was the last time I was in a district of any kind?

[CookiePuss 5378]

37 minutes ago, Darkzero3802 said:

When was the last time I was in a district of any kind?

The last time you were a bronze district, probably.

[Cuve 244]

On 5/21/2020 at 5:01 PM, Iazer said:

no you, just cause its a crutch to give epic gamer content doesn't mean it doesn't need a nerf.

Needs buff broooooooo :^)