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Things in APB that are detrimental to the mental health of its players

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This just in, people aren't nice on the internet. 

 

 

Stay tuned for more painfully obvious facts. 

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5 minutes ago, supermariobrothe said:

Someones mad 😄

For someone who talks about aspd and toxic behaviour, i would think you would be capable of civil discourse. I can honestly say, this is the least pleasant interaction ive ever had with someone in this forum. Honestly, good luck out there.

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9 minutes ago, Kylegrey2 said:

For someone who talks about aspd and toxic behaviour, i would think you would be capable of civil discourse. I can honestly say, this is the least pleasant interaction ive ever had with someone in this forum. Honestly, good luck out there.

whoa hold on there, you were the one calling me twat lol, shouldnt i be the one telling you this? am i somehow more toxic than you to pont out that you are mad at me so much you have to resort to name calling? Also i did say im sorry if i offended you.

 

But you know, i will admit that you are right, i did over exaggerate the title for clickbatey purposes

Edited by supermariobrothe

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3 minutes ago, supermariobrothe said:

whoa hold on there, you were the one calling me twat lol, shouldnt i be the one telling you this?,

 

But you know, i will admit that you are right, i did over exaggerate the title for clickbatey purposes

Im not using a sock puppet account. I will admit my response to that comment wasnt exactly civil either... if your post was in the interest of getting clicks, you were hugely successful. Again, i will say that i agree with alot of the suggestions you made concerning game mechanics, i just wholeheartedly dissagree with why you think those changes need to be made. Despite dissagreeing with each other on some points, i think we can still find common ground.

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4 hours ago, supermariobrothe said:

Dude, what you highlighted in red is a a response to your strawman that i want a "safe space", this is not true and i explained what my actual position. Im not changing my argument, im just responding to the specific thing you are saying. you also probably skipped a lot of the discussion, which i didnt realize at the time and thought you knew all the things i said to clarify some of what i ment in the original post, and went straight to responding to my original post,

 

But ill try to condense it into as little amount of words as possible.

 

Things in APB that are detrimental to the mental health of the people playing it are poorly thought out game mechanics that create crate an unhealthy environment and situations comparable to a toxic workplace or a school. How you may ask? I have listed some of the mechanics and situations this game creates and how it can negatively effect someone.

 

You think that all of this assholish behavior in the game is just baggage people bring with them to the game (which like i said i would agree with you), but you are only half right because the bad game mechanics i mentioned help to facilitate all that baggage and create an unhealthy environment, are you following me now?

 

The facilitation if this baggage and the reward they get for doing bad things gives positive feedback and incentive to keep doing it, solidifying it into someones personality, people on the receiving end can start to learn from example and do it to otehrs too to make them feel better about their own situation or develop unhealthy reflexes to it and lash out in situations where they think that its happening again.

 

Do you not agree that this baggage they brought doesnt mix well with all the bad game mechanics and can create an environment that can negatively effect other people over a period of time, just like it does in other places, such as schools or workplaces, if it happens there, why cant it happen in APB?

 

Also sorry if i have offended you, assuming things about you and being abrasive is just a reflex i developed over the years of using this particular forum.

 

 

I'm not offended. I'm just tired of repeating myself.

 

Read this carefully, dude:

 

"Things in APB that are detrimental to the mental health of the people playing it are poorly thought out game mechanics that create crate an unhealthy environment and situations comparable to a toxic workplace or a school. How you may ask? I have listed some of the mechanics and situations this game creates and how it can negatively effect someone.

 

You think that all of this assholish behavior in the game is just baggage people bring with them to the game (which like i said i would agree with you), but you are only half right because the bad game mechanics i mentioned help to facilitate all that baggage and create an unhealthy environment, are you following me now?"

 

All of that in orange is irrelevant.

 

All of it.

 

Some people are just dickheads, dude. They will always be dickheads. There is nothing you can do to the game to make them or even encourage them to not be a dickhead. They're already not supposed to be dickheads. There is nothing you can do to get rid of them or to make them not be a dickhead. There are no rules to stop them.

 

The reason this is true is because you do not have authority over them. You have no leverage. I don't have time to explain why you need to have authority over someone before you can change their behavior. Go read a psychology book or a book on social competence. It will explain everything you need to know.

 

Ergo, the game's design concerning this point is irrelevant. And yes, I understand that isn't your primary point. We first have to examine this aspect, because what you're talking about doesn't exist in a vacuum.

 

The problem you're pointing out cannot be fixed in the game, because the problem is with the people playing the game. <-- This is my counterargument to your argument, which we still haven't gotten to yet. So pay close attention.

 

Just look at our very conversation. I have explained this to you three times now. The first two times, you got pissy and obnoxious with me over nothing. You've even gotten pissy and obnoxious with others. And it's all your doing. No one incited you to be that way. You could have chosen not to be pissy and obnoxious, but I guess the forums aren't designed well enough for you to have made a better choice for your online social conduct. Also, I couldn't have explained myself any better, and you still acted like a dickhead to me for God knows why.

 

Tell me something. Do the APB Forums need to be redesigned since you've caused me a lot of unwanted stress? I'm feeling very victimized right now, and I don't think I can handle your abuse.

 

Do you see?

 

Do you see now how silly this all is?

 

Secondly:

 

"Dude, what you highlighted in red is a a response to your strawman that i want a "safe space", this is not true and i explained what my actual position."

 

I didn't strawman you. You just didn't understand what I meant, because you don't even understand your own argument.

 

If you would just calm down and READ, you will see that I'm trying to help you make a better argument.

 

Your actual position is a "Safe Space" in principle. It's exactly the same concept in both principle and execution.

 

Here is your argument --> Your position is that people behave badly because the game incites them to do so. Your concern, however, is not for the people who behave badly, but for the people who are the victims to those who behave badly. Your solution to the problem is to redesign the rulesets/mechanics of certain aspects of the game so that the victims cannot be harmed by the people who behave badly.

 

A Safe Space is a concept which allows perceived victims to be shielded from perceived threats. What you're talking about is actively asking for such designs to be implemented.

 

They're your words. Not mine. If what you're trying to explain truly isn't a Safe Space, then you need to do a better job explaining what you mean. Because everything you've said thus far is exactly what a Safe Space is in principle.

 

Since adding "Safe Space" rules aren't going to resolve the problem--and we know they won't resolve the problem, because they don't even address the problem in the first place--then we can safely conclude no amount of redesigning is going to reduce the threats of abuse victims receive. And it stands to reason that is true, since it is also true that there's nothing you can do to make people not be dickeads--which I have already established.

 

Are YOU following ME now?

 

Therefore, the problem is not the game: It's the people. Like I said in the beginning.

 

Dickheads need to buzz off.

 

People who can't deal with dickheads need to buzzoff.

 

Better yet, both of them need to give me and everyone else who belongs to the human race a 4ucking break and grow the hell up.

 

APB needs to focus on being a good game.

 

Period.

 

For example: We don't need any better reasoning for why Ram Raiding needs to improve other than, "Ram Raiding sucks!" <-- here is your fixed argument.

 

Had you just written that to begin with, every single person on these forums would have given you a thumbs up, because it's one of the most true things you can say about APB.

Edited by Zascha
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On 9/9/2019 at 10:18 PM, illgot said:

Witness

 

Crims being witnessed... that is how Enforcers earn money.  They can't simply ram raid in an empty district at N5 all day solo and earn a million credits, they have to get lucky and witness idiots doing this out in the open when there are enforcers around (check the map to see if enforcers log in to the empty district).

 

and 8k?  That's nothing.  I've been able to gather nearly 250k in 30-45 minutes with my crim.

 

Now, if you want to really bypass the whole witness system, since you were working with a crew, have one of the crew log on as an Enforcer and just have them hold the money.  The Criminal farms say 5k, blows themselves up which drops the money, Enforcer picks up the money and holds it.  After you reach a goal, the Enforcer stands at the crim drop off with all the cash, the Crim (who can easily reach N5 by mugging) then kills the Enforcer holding the cash, picks it up, takes a step in any direction and completes the drop off.

 

Your whole complaint about a group of Enforcers doing what is intended is silly.

It's not a complaint but a breakdown of certain mechanics of the game that are detrimental to player attitude. 

 

 

Also, even with the game being as dead as it is, not everyone has a group of people willing to do stuff like what you're suggesting. It's a pretty insane counter just for ram raiding, and I really hope that's not your standard go-to counter argument for ram raiding troubles.

 

Merged.

 

2 hours ago, Zascha said:

I'm not offended. I'm just tired of repeating myself.

 

Read this carefully, dude:

 

"Things in APB that are detrimental to the mental health of the people playing it are poorly thought out game mechanics that create crate an unhealthy environment and situations comparable to a toxic workplace or a school. How you may ask? I have listed some of the mechanics and situations this game creates and how it can negatively effect someone.

 

You think that all of this assholish behavior in the game is just baggage people bring with them to the game (which like i said i would agree with you), but you are only half right because the bad game mechanics i mentioned help to facilitate all that baggage and create an unhealthy environment, are you following me now?"

 

All of that in orange is irrelevant.

 

All of it.

Funny enough the orange parts that you call irrelevant change the context of his stance entirely, especially the secondary orange section.

 

Quote

Some people are just dickheads, dude.

 

"Dude, what you highlighted in red is a a response to your strawman that i want a "safe space", this is not true and i explained what my actual position."

 

I didn't strawman you. You just didn't understand what I meant, because you don't even understand your own argument.

 

If you would just calm down and READ, you will see that I'm trying to help you make a better argument.

 

Your actual position is a "Safe Space" in principle. It's exactly the same concept in both principle and execution.

 

Here is your argument --> Your position is that people behave badly because the game incites them to do so. Your concern, however, is not for the people who behave badly, but for the people who are the victims to those who behave badly. Your solution to the problem is to redesign the rulesets/mechanics of certain aspects of the game so that the victims cannot be harmed by the people who behave badly.

 

A Safe Space is a concept which allows perceived victims to be shielded from perceived threats. What you're talking about is actively asking for such designs to be implemented.

 

They're your words. Not mine. If what you're trying to explain truly isn't a Safe Space, then you need to do a better job explaining what you mean. Because everything you've said thus far is exactly what a Safe Space is in principle.

Then what would you have called it when he was specifically stating his post only concerned for the ill-behaving people? I think it's more a thing in general rather than for victims/offenders. Fact is that people behave poorly in video games, one reason being anonymity. 

 

But when a game actually rewards poor behaviour, can you really blame the offenders? Telling victims to toughen up or telling offenders to go away really won't help the game at all, for one (not implying you said such).

 

Quote

Since adding "Safe Space" rules aren't going to resolve the problem--and we know they won't resolve the problem, because they don't even address the problem in the first place--then we can safely conclude no amount of redesigning is going to reduce the threats of abuse victims receive. And it stands to reason that is true, since it is also true that there's nothing you can do to make people not be dickeads--which I have already established.

How do you intend to tackle the problem then?

 

The only way to tackle people behaving poorly is to punish poor behaviour instead of rewarding it. Right now the game's actually rewarding poor behaviour. Taking the rewards away is step one in the right direction.

 

Quote

The problem is not the game: It's the people. Like I said in the beginning.

 

Dickheads need to buzz off.

 

People who can't deal with dickheads need to buzzoff.

There's always toxicity involved in online games. 

I have seen games with literal mentally insane people while the game doesn't even facilitate nor incite such behaviour, but the difference between most of those games (PSO2 which I frequently play being one of them) and APB is that APB actually incites poor behaviour by rewarding it, whereas in the other games it's more of a when there's a will there's a way case.

 

Again, when a game rewards you for being an arse, can you really blame the people being an arse for being the way they are? It takes someone morally deeply virtuous to not succumb to the joys of being a douche while being rewarded for it.

 

APB doesn't need to be soft, PC or what have you, but some mechanics are really not thought out well, and are part of the reasons the game's population is as low as it is.

 

 

 

Excuse me for the double post, I'd have used the edit button if I could properly move quotes from the new post input area to the edit post input area.

Edited by Haganu
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34 minutes ago, Haganu said:

Funny enough the orange parts that you call irrelevant change the context of his stance entirely, especially the secondary orange section.

 

Then what would you have called it when he was specifically stating his post only concerned for the ill-behaving people? I think it's more a thing in general rather than for victims/offenders. Fact is that people behave poorly in video games, one reason being anonymity. 

 

But when a game actually rewards poor behaviour, can you really blame the offenders? Telling victims to toughen up or telling offenders to go away really won't help the game at all, for one (not implying you said such).

 

How do you intend to tackle the problem then?

 

The only way to tackle people behaving poorly is to punish poor behaviour instead of rewarding it. Right now the game's actually rewarding poor behaviour. Taking the rewards away is step one in the right direction.

 

There's always toxicity involved in online games. 

I have seen games with literal mentally insane people while the game doesn't even facilitate nor incite such behaviour, but the difference between most of those games (PSO2 which I frequently play being one of them) and APB is that APB actually incites poor behaviour by rewarding it, whereas in the other games it's more of a when there's a will there's a way case.

 

Again, when a game rewards you for being an arse, can you really blame the people being an arse for being the way they are? It takes someone morally deeply virtuous to not succumb to the joys of being a douche while being rewarded for it.

 

APB doesn't need to be soft, PC or what have you, but some mechanics are really not thought out well, and are part of the reasons the game's population is as low as it is.

 

 

 

Excuse me for the double post, I'd have used the edit button if I could properly move quotes from the new post input area to the edit post input area.

I agree. The orange points DO change the context of what he's saying. But what he's saying is irrelevant because the context doesn't even need to be addressed. I've been saying this since my first post. It's good enough that the game systems he pointed out are just bad. To suggest they need to be changed under any other context is irrelevant.

 

How do you tackle the problem of people being dickheads? Well, for one, you'll never be rid of them. But, there are effective countermeasures: You warn them. If they continue, you give them a temporary ban. Maybe 24 hours. If they continue the bad behavior, you give them a longer temporary ban. Say three days. Maybe a month. If they continue still, you simply delete the account and get rid of them with no chance of getting the character/account back. They blew it. They had several chances to behave correctly, and they chose not to do so. That's the punishment. And I wouldn't let MobRule change my stance on it. The rules are clear--that player broke the rules consistently. People want to complain about it--complain all you want. But that player's account will stay banned. You can't give these idiots a single inch, because they WILL take the whole mile. It would also help matters if the game was B2P in the first place. To be fair, it needs to be a better game before it can do that. But the fact remains: One major factor why this game has so many dickheads in it is because it's F2P.

 

How do you tackle the problem of people being victimized? You kick dickheads out of the game. Simple as that. Fewer dickheads means you have fewer victims. It's basic mathematics. You make crystal clear rules, and you start enforcing the rules. Also, you let these victims learn to deal with everything else by doing nothing special for them. People breaking rules is one thing. But some of these folks are a little too sensitive for the rest of humanity who is minding their own business to have to stop everything they're doing to make sure they're all right. This isn't Kindergarten. People need to stop being babied, and the rest of humanity shouldn't be forced to be responsible for people who can't stand up for themselves. It's just like I said. I'm a nice guy, and I like to go out of my way to help folks. I will stand up for the little guy. But if you force me to do it, then you've stolen away the blessing I get from making the choice to do it myself. And that's going to piss me off<-- another point the OP failed to understand. Someone harasses you/trash talks you? Use the Mute button. Someone is cheating? Report them. Someone is griefing you? Report them. Someone is participating in their part of a crappy game system and it bothers you? Play another game until the crappy game system is altered or fixed. And most of all--just ignore it. Stop feeding the trolls. This isn't rocket science. Seriously. If the game bothers you that much, just stop playing it. No one is going to think less of you. Go play something that doesn't stress you out so much. Start being responsible for yourself, and stop making everyone else be responsible for you. Why does this even need to be said? Honestly, it's like there's a whole world of information about how to be a human being, and there are just billions of people who didn't get the memo...

 

Also--kids aren't supposed to be playing this game. They should be banned on general principle. So, there's that.

 

As for how to make those game systems better? Who knows? Even if I did know, I wouldn't waste my time writing it out. I don't get paid to design APB. Too bad, too. I'd "Make APB Great Again!" Alternatively, there have been a million comments and ideas made on these forums about each and every thing the OP brought up. Pick one from the pile. Any one of them would be better than what we have.

 

Resolving bad behavior isn't as simple as just applying a punishment. There has to be a matter of escalation involved. You have to give the person enough time to understand what they're doing is wrong. In other words, if some guy sends you a whisper and just cusses you out for no reason for 20 minutes straight--or you know, whatever the offense is--you can't just outright ban that player. You have to give a warning. Then you apply a time out if they continue. And so forth and so on. Banning the player/account for good should be a last resort. That's basic behavioral adjustment protocol. It's the only known method that works and is actually ethical and non-abusive.

 

I don't think you have established your argument well enough to say the game rewards bad behavior. All you and the OP have done on this front is made the assertion. You haven't successfully argued your case on this. The only thing I can say for certain is there are plenty of elements in the game that aren't very fun. Things that aren't fun, generally bring the worst out of people. If you're trying to argue that the systems are unfun and therefore bring the worst out of people, the only thing I can say is, "Why are you wasting everyone's time by stating the obvious?" Again. Irrelevant. There are also a lot of elements in the game specifically designed to create chaos. You could potentially make an argument that the systems in the game which create chaos in-turn create a sense of anxiety and frustration. And I would agree--because that's the point of the game. If you're arguing against that, then you're definitely making the wrong argument, because that's what the game is. If you don't like it--then you should play a different game. If you find you don't want to stop playing this game, and the game creates anxiety for you that you cannot handle or manifests itself as abuse toward others--I refer you to what I wrote about the rules, which, again, should be enforced. If that doesn't fix your problem, then you will eventually be banned, and well... you'll be playing something else anyway.

 

You guys aren't getting this:

 

You have the choice to be a dickhead.

 

You also have the choice to be a victim.

 

You also have the choice to be cool-breeze, like me and all the other awesome people in the world.

 

I would encourage everyone to stop choosing to be either a dickhead or a victim.

 

As for actual insane people--what exactly do you want me or anyone else to do about that? They're insane. That isn't normal behavior in the first place, and it's an irrelevant argument. File it under everything else I've already written.

 

"some mechanics are really not thought out well, and are part of the reasons the game's population is as low as it is." <-- I agree with this statement. I don't understand why you guys don't understand that, that argument is good enough. You don't need to add irrelevant commentary to sell your point.

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4 hours ago, Zascha said:

[snip]

Not sure why would someone give a thumbs down to your post after all the effort you made to be polite, clear and reasonable.

 

I'll say it one more time, this game always lacked of proper ingame moderation and the first step to properly moderate imho is to have active and visible presence of the admins at all times and allowing them to also play the game as normal people with everyone else while knowing who they are as any normal multiplayer game used to be back in the days, and we could save ourselves from having to deal with all this sort of bs we have nowadays in most of the online gaming communities and specially in f2p ones.

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2 hours ago, Zascha said:

like me and all the other awesome people in the world

calling yourself awesome is not cool-breeze

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what i can say, specific to the ramraiding/witnessing interaction, is that people regardless of their mental issues will always get more hostile or angry if they feel like they are losing something. i don't mean losing something in the sense that "he lost a mission", because ultimately even when you lose, you still gain money and standing. when, in your example, they raided up to 8k and got witnessed, they "lost" 8k. anecdotally from my experience, ranked modes of most of the games i have played (including siege, smite, dota, lol, and csgo) tend to be significantly more hostile when things aren't going well, because there's the looming threat of losing elo/mmr. the entire history of eve online is a perfect case study for what i'm describing, apb only has it on a very small-scale; personally I tend to even forget ramraiding is even in the game until it's brought up.

 

while i agree with the notion that you can't blame a game for the problems of its players, hopefully it's mutually understood that regardless of a person's problems, feeling like you're losing something you've worked for will bother you to some capacity; whether that capacity is sighing and quitting the game or punching the wall and raging in /d.

 

with that said though, i don't know how the system could even be changed to not feel like it punishes you for using it, without changing its core concept or giving enforcers a similar method.

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9 minutes ago, Uru! said:

with that said though, i don't know how the system could even be changed to not feel like it punishes you for using it, without changing its core concept or giving enforcers a similar method.

  • remove the 2500 apb$ limit for permanent witnessing
  • add a timer (5-10s) for both factions when a witness mission is initiated
  • alter the mission mechanics so that if neither side manages to deliver the money and criminals are in possession when the timer runs out, all mission rewards are converted back into dirty money
  • disable ramraiding in districts with no enforcers

there's no way to change the system to completely eliminate the feeling of losing because at their core even the "pve" activities were designed to funnel into pvp, but it's not terribly difficult to make things more fair

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4 minutes ago, Solamente said:
  • remove the 2500 apb$ limit for permanent witnessing
  • add a timer (5-10s) for both factions when a witness mission is initiated
  • alter the mission mechanics so that if neither side manages to deliver the money and criminals are in possession when the timer runs out, all mission rewards are converted back into dirty money
  • disable ramraiding in districts with no enforcers

there's no way to change the system to completely eliminate the feeling of losing because at their core even the "pve" activities were designed to funnel into pvp, but it's not terribly difficult to make things more fair

i really like those ideas.

did you put them in a game suggestion thread yet?

if not i think you should.

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6 minutes ago, Fortune Runner said:

i really like those ideas.

did you put them in a game suggestion thread yet?

if not i think you should.

i have little to no faith in orbit's feedback acknowledgement or balancing process and i don't find it worth my time to give feedback on anything but "major" changes, and even those are iffy lol

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10 hours ago, Zascha said:

A Safe Space is a concept which allows perceived victims to be shielded from perceived threats. What you're talking about is actively asking for such designs to be implemented.

How is making crims WANT to be witnessed and have a mission against the cops witnessing them, instead of actively avoiding it, making it a safe space? like i said, give better multipliers for doing the mission instead of playing it safe and avoiding it,

 

10 hours ago, Zascha said:

There is nothing you can do to the game to make them or even encourage them to not be a dickhead.

What do you mean nothing you can do, i literally listed things you ca do and if you go to the suggestion board, theres a whole lot more things they can do and they have been doing some of it, like not allowing to use the mobile cover to glitch items up on unreachable spots for example.

 

10 hours ago, Zascha said:

The problem you're pointing out cannot be fixed in the game, because the problem is with the people playing the game.

If you mean the problem of dickheads playing the game, yes but you can fix the problems with the game itself that allow them to do dickhead things, and again a lot of those problems have been successfully fixed over the years and theres still a bunch that are very fixable.

 

10 hours ago, Zascha said:

Just look at our very conversation. I have explained this to you three times now

Your explanation was irrelevant because you were (and still are) refusing to see the problems with the game itself and putting all the blame on the people playing it like its just some internet forum.

 

10 hours ago, Zascha said:

Tell me something. Do the APB Forums need to be redesigned since you've caused me a lot of unwanted stress? I'm feeling very victimized right now, and I don't think I can handle your abuse.

No because you are comparing apples to oranges and because APB forums have community guidelines on how to behave and actual moderation that will remove posts that step over the line, warn the offending accounts and ban them if necessary, unlike the game itself which is the wild west where anyone can do whatever.

 

10 hours ago, Zascha said:

I didn't strawman you. You just didn't understand what I meant, because you don't even understand your own argument.

I understand my argument, but you dont if you see a simple fix like giving a better reward for participating to make people want to be witnessed, making people step out of their cum fart zone instead of playing it safe, as somehow creating a safe space.

 

10 hours ago, Zascha said:

Here is your argument --> Your position is that people behave badly because the game incites them to do so. Your concern, however, is not for the people who behave badly, but for the people who are the victims to those who behave badly. Your solution to the problem is to redesign the rulesets/mechanics of certain aspects of the game so that the victims cannot be harmed by the people who behave badly.

A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the opponent's proposition.[2][3] Straw man arguments have been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly regarding highly charged emotional subjects.

 

10 hours ago, Zascha said:

Since adding "Safe Space" rules aren't going to resolve the problem--and we know they won't resolve the problem, because they don't even address the problem in the first place--then we can safely conclude no amount of redesigning is going to reduce the threats of abuse victims receive. And it stands to reason that is true, since it is also true that there's nothing you can do to make people not be dickeads--which I have already established. 

Again, no ones talking about any safe space rules but you, what you are naming as the problem, dickheads, cannot be fixed, but it can be mitigated, second, the game has its own problems that CAN be fixed and that is whats being talked about.

 

7 hours ago, Zascha said:

another point the OP failed to understand. Someone harasses you/trash talks you? Use the Mute button. Someone is cheating? Report them. Someone is griefing you? Report them.

A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the opponent's proposition.[2][3] Straw man arguments have been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly regarding highly charged emotional subjects.

 

7 hours ago, Zascha said:

How do you tackle the problem of people being victimized? You kick dickheads out of the game.

You know moderation is one of the things both me and many other people suggested as a way to tackle the problem that "cannot be fixed"

 

7 hours ago, Zascha said:

I'm a nice guy

Yeah you so nice you need to tell everyone that because otherwise they wouldnt know by just interacting with you.

 

7 hours ago, Zascha said:

As for how to make those game systems better? Who knows? Even if I did know,

V

7 hours ago, Zascha said:

there have been a million comments and ideas made on these forums about each and every thing the OP brought up. Pick one from the pile. Any one of them would be better than what we have. 

 

7 hours ago, Zascha said:

I don't think you have established your argument well enough to say the game rewards bad behavior.

He didnt really need to repeat what i have already stated, but if you missed it than heres an example, running away with the item is rewarding you with a victory, there is even a mission where the item is an armored truck that you literally have to run with.

 

7 hours ago, Zascha said:

You have the choice to be a dickhead.

 

You also have the choice to be a victim.

 

I would encourage everyone to stop choosing to be either a dickhead or a victim. 

So if i chose to be a dickhead and walk up to you and mug you, dos that mean you chose to be mugged?

Edited by supermariobrothe
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8 hours ago, Zascha said:

Lots of rambling.

I think you need to take a break, its obvious that you are uninterested in any real conversation about game mechanics or how they can or can't have an effect on someones psiche and want to just out right reject their reality and substitute your own, Also your "I'm a nice guy" act isn't fooling anyone when you write it in such a passive aggressive way.

 

What made me kinda roll my eyes about your posts was how you end them.

8 hours ago, Zascha said:

You guys aren't getting this:

 

You have the choice to be a dickhead.

 

You also have the choice to be a victim.

 

You also have the choice to be cool-breeze, like me and all the other awesome people in the world.

 

I would encourage everyone to stop choosing to be either a dickhead or a victim.

 

10 hours ago, Zascha said:

Dickheads need to buzz off.

 

People who can't deal with dickheads need to buzzoff.

 

Better yet, both of them need to give me and everyone else who belongs to the human race a 4ucking break and grow the hell up.

I'm sorry but this is just such a simplistic and naive way to look at the world, its like, you just say the magic word and all the ills of the world will go away, and if this is the kind of logic you base your whole argument on than of course you aren't getting through to anyone with it.

 

 

 

Edited by utilizator
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1 hour ago, supermariobrothe said:

How is making crims WANT to be witnessed and have a mission against the cops witnessing them, instead of actively avoiding it, making it a safe space? like i said, give better multipliers for doing the mission instead of playing it safe and avoiding it, 

can you man up please we want to play lol

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1 hour ago, Fortune Runner said:

can you man up please we want to play lol

Its not an issue of manning up, its an issue of there being no point to do it, you got nothing to gain from it and even if you win you dont get that sweet multiplier that you would if you avoided being witnessed, so my proposed change would actually give people the incentive to man up

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19 hours ago, CookiePuss said:

This just in, people aren't nice on the internet. 

 

 

Stay tuned for more painfully obvious facts. 

 

I consider myself an extremely nice and gentle person.

 

Why hurt me like that :C

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On 9/14/2019 at 4:36 PM, Fortune Runner said:

Do you still play? If not come back and go wreck stuff. Its good therapy to cut loose once in a while.

cant. nfas still exists and Little Orbit is making changes to the game that noone asked for and also that fucking ruin it

Edited by a Pair of Socks
Ive lost all passion for this game and the main reason for the game, the community, has become a toxic shithole and further ruins the experience. I play this game for fun but there is no longer any fun to be had with APB Reloaded.

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15 hours ago, Zascha said:

Resolving bad behavior isn't as simple as just applying a punishment. There has to be a matter of escalation involved. You have to give the person enough time to understand what they're doing is wrong. In other words, if some guy sends you a whisper and just cusses you out for no reason for 20 minutes straight--or you know, whatever the offense is--you can't just outright ban that player. You have to give a warning. Then you apply a time out if they continue. And so forth and so on. Banning the player/account for good should be a last resort. That's basic behavioral adjustment protocol. It's the only known method that works and is actually ethical and non-abusive.

 

I don't think you have established your argument well enough to say the game rewards bad behavior. All you and the OP have done on this front is made the assertion. You haven't successfully argued your case on this. The only thing I can say for certain is there are plenty of elements in the game that aren't very fun. Things that aren't fun, generally bring the worst out of people. If you're trying to argue that the systems are unfun and therefore bring the worst out of people, the only thing I can say is, "Why are you wasting everyone's time by stating the obvious?" Again. Irrelevant. There are also a lot of elements in the game specifically designed to create chaos. You could potentially make an argument that the systems in the game which create chaos in-turn create a sense of anxiety and frustration. And I would agree--because that's the point of the game. If you're arguing against that, then you're definitely making the wrong argument, because that's what the game is. If you don't like it--then you should play a different game. If you find you don't want to stop playing this game, and the game creates anxiety for you that you cannot handle or manifests itself as abuse toward others--I refer you to what I wrote about the rules, which, again, should be enforced. If that doesn't fix your problem, then you will eventually be banned, and well... you'll be playing something else anyway.

 

You guys aren't getting this:

 

You have the choice to be a dickhead.

 

You also have the choice to be a victim.

 

You also have the choice to be cool-breeze, like me and all the other awesome people in the world.

 

I would encourage everyone to stop choosing to be either a dickhead or a victim.

 

As for actual insane people--what exactly do you want me or anyone else to do about that? They're insane. That isn't normal behavior in the first place, and it's an irrelevant argument. File it under everything else I've already written.

 

"some mechanics are really not thought out well, and are part of the reasons the game's population is as low as it is." <-- I agree with this statement. I don't understand why you guys don't understand that, that argument is good enough. You don't need to add irrelevant commentary to sell your point.

Kudos for staying polite in a somewhat heated thread. I'd upvote if I weren't on my quota yet.

 

That aside, although there's a lot to gain in community management, if that's not happening (it barely was if ever, and still is pretty much barely done), we'd need a different way.

 

I'm also not sure what else you want to hear. Yeah it's obvious that a lot of systems are bad and incite poor behaviour, that and poor community management are just very detrimental on the game and its population. But sometimes developers don't see what's obvious for us. Especially when they don't play the game live sufficiently if at all. That's why putting certain design flaws and how it impacts the playerbase is not really a waste of time. Arguing against it, however, is. Especially when it's obvious. That is, unless you have a valid explaination as to why system a or design choice b is meant to be that way. That means the reason for said system or design choice to exist has to count heavier than the potential negative effect on players.

 

195 mods, threat segregation and threat overhead display, and witnessing really don't have a valid excuse to exist anymore. They're more a sorry excuse for other aspects of the game, such as the lack of sense of progression, or the lack of actual faction-locked content/gameplay.

 

Little Orbit has their hands full developing this game, and I'm sure they missed a couple things here and there that need to be addressed, if they want APB to be a good game in the future. That's why threads like these exist, albeit the title is clickbait-ish.

 

It's not necessarily the systems that are meant to cause chaos that are bad. It's just the way some of them are designed. Even during the Reloaded era, the devs applied a couple measures here and there in missions against poor player behaviour. A couple years before even Tiggs went silent they implemented a system against ghosting, for example. It's a Safe Space system, more or less, but sofar it works decently, since ghosting is at least more difficult. 

 

All in all APB needs a major design overhaul if it wants to actually be a cops vs robbers game in first place.

A lot of design choices in APB are quite out of date and could use a huge refresher.

 

There's a lot within cops vs robbers, and APB is really doing poorly in doing anything in those boundaries.

It doesn't have to be perfectly 50/50 balanced, it just needs to convey the attitude (it really doesn't right now) the game wants to put up.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Solamente said:
  • remove the 2500 apb$ limit for permanent witnessing
  • add a timer (5-10s) for both factions when a witness mission is initiated
  • alter the mission mechanics so that if neither side manages to deliver the money and criminals are in possession when the timer runs out, all mission rewards are converted back into dirty money
  • disable ramraiding in districts with no enforcers

+1 for these ideas.

 

Also I think that adding some PvE tasks for enfos could help.

 

I've made a suggestion long time ago about how I imagine a money transport mission that requires the district to be populated to start in the first place and where the enforcers do pretty much the same the crims does when ram raiding but without breaking the shops and just retrieving gold, money, bags and safes to drop it at the bank and similar locations, the old forums are offline so I couldn't provide a link but I might consider creating a new post about it eventually.

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8 hours ago, a Pair of Socks said:

cant. nfas still exists and Little Orbit is making changes to the game that noone asked for and also that fucking ruin it

Everyone asked for change , but only for things killing them, and for new content that they later complained about.

Also because people are being selfish and not properly helping with testing , the Little Orbit staff  being trained to know more about gun balance are not learning properly.

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37 minutes ago, supermariobrothe said:

yeah but no one ever asked them to mess with guns like obir or shaw and no one ever asked for a battle royale mode

actually  yes they did.

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54 minutes ago, Fortune Runner said:

actually  yes they did.

riot br mode was panned before it was even confirmed that riot would be a br

 

the first time i saw anyone complain about the obir was in the thread that announced it was getting a nerf, its currently a pretty rare gun to see ingame and the fact that its "balancing" is a priority over the ntec or shotguns or any of a dozen other garbage weapons is a joke

 

idk why the shaw is being mentioned but its been fairly redundant ever since the euryale was released especially now that its available for joker tickets, i've still yet to see anyone complain that its unbalanced

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