Kewlin

By the way, why can't you just revert the Anubis to the pre-2015 version, plus a range buff to the current sniper range curve? If you took a history lesson in APB you'd know that the Anubis was fine before they attempted to "buff" it. P.S. Are you guys doing any in-house testing on any of this stuff before putting it on OTW?

Just a reminder BTW that IIRC this was supposed to be a light balance pass.

Agreed and half agreed. And I love how they're trying to say it like decreased RoF could even be a good thing, as if not everyone who plays APB knows how to tap-fire correctly.

Isn't the purpose of these changes buffing shotguns? So why in the world are you nerfing them? I don't know for other shotguns, (except the Shredder,) but I've tested the CSG's range before and on the live servers the CSG can easily 5-shot at 20m or 25m with IR3, so why are you testing a "buff" that reduces the damage done by 5-shots at 20m to 976.5 if you land EVERY PELLET. Please, if you plan on entirely reworking shotguns, just don't touch them. Shotguns are intended to be skilled guns, and you're just trying to make them easy to use, and in doing so making them way worse for players who already use shotguns. The absolute worst thing you can do as a game dev is destroying a gun or estranging its current users in an attempt to buff it, so please consider that before going further. Also, if you're going to go through with this buff you don't need to buff the LCR, just remove IR3 from it, because the gun doesn't actually need it because its range only increases by 1-STK at minimum damage, so IR3 already has very little effect on the gun anyways. I would, however, very strongly suggest against entirely reworking a mod that's totally central to the game's current meta. And BTW, can you give us the actual numbers please instead of the amount it reduces the RoF? I.E. the amount it increases a gun's fire interval?

There's more than one way to skin a cat dude, and what Tobii and I are saying is just as simple to be perfectly honest, it's just a different take. I personally do not think your idea is as good because it would make the gun way harder to predict due to an extremely short min dropoff range, plus having 0% damage at 15m would literally make it worse than the current CSG. Basically, needing to hit fewer pellets within 5m is barely even a buff, because the spread on the CSG is already so tight, and the range dropoff you're suggesting would make the CSG no longer capable of 2-shotting past 7.3m, which is horrible, horrible range. Additionally, I've tested it before and on live the CSG can currently 4-shot players easily up to 20m, or 25m with IR3, which isn't half bad and is. . . much better than doing 0 damage at 20m. So the only thing your suggested changes would do is effectively remove the CSG, and probably all other shotguns, from the game.

Yes, but the CSG is already low damage for a 2-shot shotgun. That's why Tobii and I are suggesting basically applying a half-way between the updated B version and the live version, so it's more consistent but not OP.

Yes, twice, the most recent being in 2015.

The ISSR-B is already a contender for best gun in the game, lol.

You can't lower a 651 damage shotgun's damage by 100 and have it work, lol. When you make a shotgun 2-shot it needs to 2-shot by a large margine or it quickly becomes an extremely awkward gun and would honestly be better off being 3-shot, and clearly LO doesn't want to not apply these curves to the CSG, so Tobii and I's solution is the clear answer.

Basically everything you said. I think one of the most important things about this is it would make the CSG not necessarily delete all other guns in CQC, whereas if you took A or B and reduced the gun's range then it would still destroy every other gun within its range.

IMO if you took the shotgun changes in B and just halved them, it'd be basically perfect. The shotguns in A and B are simply too forgiving, but live is pretty hard, split the difference between live and B and it'd be good. *EDIT* Tobii said it better here.

I feel like this version of the Misery i probably the better of the two. While I love the B Misery, it just doesn't feel like the same gun and it's super wonky. I think overall this version feels like it's a good balance between bursting and tap-firing, where bursting is still the most effective, but you can tap-fire some too. The overdamage is really nice. Both SWARMS feel alright to me, but I don't have much experience with the SWARM in the first place, so my opinion is kinda' moot. The Curse is already one of the best SMGs, so the buff's a little scary, but the nigh removal of the horiz recoil is nice feeling. As someone who's favorite AR is basically the COBR-A, I was very scared these changes would change the feel of the gun too much, but both versions feel good. I think the A version has a shorter recovery delay than B, which might maybe be a little too short and make the gun OP, but I'm also weird in that I already think the COBR-A is a good gun on live. I'm probably just paranoid though. The NCR is still not quite right on both versions. The crosshair is virtually pointless except the dot, and the bloom just feels awful on both of them. You really should just effectively remove the bloom, I.E. make the bloom constant and fully recover by the time you can fire another shot (without CJ3.) As a side note, I really liked how the old Anubis basically always recovered its bloom at max RoF (without CJ3,) but for some reason if you matched the RoF of the gun perfectly the gun bloomed way more (but still recovered all the way.) I know it sounds weird, but I swear that's the way it used to be, and it made it really fun to have feedback as to when you were getting a perfect RoF and was just an interesting quirk. I really feel though like the NCR really should have a 4-sided crosshair no matter what. As I said before, can you please make there be two versions of the NCR? the OCSP has multiple selectable versions when you get it in a JMB, just make a second NCR named the NCR-762 'Osiris' Adeen that has basically the old crosshair, and make the Anubis have a new crosshair.

The Misery is absolutely hilarious to use in B, but even more bizarre than it currently is. Basically, because the recovery delay is so short and the recovery per second is so high, the most effective way to use the gun is generally to shoot a 3round burst and then tap-fire after that, because the gun still doesn't bloom for the first 3rounds, and you can very quickly tap out the 2-3 shots after the burst. This is very effective, and I find it extremely fun, but I'm not so sure most people will like it. On the bright side though, the gun is fine if you just tap fire it or burst it, but I find this is a much better way to use it on B than just tapfiring (seeming as the gun was intended to be burst fired in the first place.)

Have you considered effectively removing bloom on the Anubis? The negative bloom / exponential recovery gain effectively made it perfectly accurate past the like the 2nd shot, so doesn't it seem kinda' like a nerf to give it bloom again? It just seems like it would make more sense for it to fully recover from bloom unless you have CJ3. Also, when you have bloom, it's kinda' bizarre that the Anubis sight doesn't really indicate your spread at all.

Sorry that my thousands of hours of playing and researching APB have made me come to a different conclusion than you, but I've never found the post 2015 N-TEC to be OP. It's very good, and it's the best AR in long mid range, but it's not really better than the STAR.

Matt, you need to give everyone easy access to weapon and character mods, because testing weapons is impossible without having proper tools to test them in a realistic scenario. As it is, the OTW testing will be close to useless, please give everyone at least one of every mod, and I mean every mod, not just level 3's because sometimes you need to use level 1 or 2 mods to break things. *EDIT* Also, you really need to let us know which district is test district B and which is test district A. *EDIT 2* To clarify, currently they're both named the same thing I believe.

1. Every primary gun type in the game only has two or three free versions, (not including legendaries, at which point there are 4 free ARs,) which is plenty TBH. 2. The STAR is just as good as the N-TEC, it's just different. 3. The N-TEC has the same damage drop off as every other AR (except the Ursus and LCR, which can shoot further.) 4. The N-TEC has the same magazine capacity and stored ammo as the STAR, and similar kills per magazine to many assault rifles. IMO the only reason everyone uses the N-TEC is because A] it's the longest range AR beside the Ursus and LCR and B] simply because everyone uses the N-TEC, so everyone thinks the N-TEC must be the best assault rifle. As such, I will definitely agree with you that it's hard for the general population to understand the balance between the ARs without using them themselves, I don't know what the best way would be to solve that though.

I didn't say it's uncontrollable, obviously people can use it, I simply think the recoil is bad and should be reverted. . . . and the M-1922 doesn't cover any niche except being a worse ATAC, or maybe being a hipster. VVV And can you answer any of these things? VVV

We don't have enough information to know what it will effect most, lol. It could be concentrated toward making it easier to 2 shot, or 3 shot, or 4 shot, we simply don't know until we have an idea of what the curve is.

And you didn't answer my questions or refute any of my points! XD Tell me, why use the gun over the ATAC, and are you going to deny that you said you don't want the gun to be good? What do you have to say about claiming the gun is not being intended to be used like an assault rifle when the game's staff actually said it's intended as a hybrid between an assault rifle and an SMG? Do you use automatic shotguns at 50m? Why actually are you against the recoil being reverted to a much easier state?

OH! I get it now! Tactically you use it like an auto-shotty that you don't use like an auto-shotty in practice and consistently gets kills at up to 50m! (Because we all know about those 50m shotgun kills.) You mean like a gun a shotgun that's not in the game and plays exactly like the ATAC? /sarcasm Well now that I understand you just mean you use the M-1922 like an ATAC, what is the advantage of the gun over the ATAC exactly? The ATAC has a better base accuracy, has better run, walk, and sprint modifiers, and has a higher FoV to make it easier to track in CQC in MM as well as easier to handle recoil, not to mention it has less recoil. Seemingly the only advantage of the M-1922 is 5 kills per mag instead of 3.75, but that's already counter-balanced by a much faster reload speed. Don't say it has a better TTK because 0.03s is effectively nothing, especially when it's harder to hit with the M-1922 Face it, the M-1922 is currently just a bad ATAC, and even if the recoil is reverted it will still just be a worse ATAC. (Side note, it's weird how Tiggs said the M-1922 falls into a "hybrid categoy" in this thread. . . it's almost as if the gun was intended to be a hybrid between SMGs and assault rifles: https://forums-old.gamersfirst.com/topic/386759-sub-machine-guns/ ) So you're admitting the gun sucks? So why don't you want its nerf reverted? By admitting you don't want the gun to be good you're quite honestly making your own opinion invalid. (P.S., you don't suppress in CQC, lol, that requires range and ease of use in full-auto.)

If you're going to compare a gun to the NFAS, which is effective from the hip easily up to 10m, I.E. far greater range than the M-1922, and gains virtually no benefit from MM, and then say it should be used like an auto shotgun, with most of the shotguns being used almost exclusively from the hip, and the Shredder only being used in MM sometimes, and then say you should use it like an SMG where the percentage of SMGs are used mostly from the hip, not like an assault rifle, where one of the primary differences between how you use an SMG and an assault rifle normally being that you use the assault rifle in MM most of the time, then yes, I'm going to assume you think it should be used from the hip. And if you're going to complain about me making assumptions then don't say that I said the gun is uncontrollable, because I never did. Anyways, you didn't address 99.99% of my post, so that's a thing, lol. As I said, the gun was clearly intended to be used at far greater ranges than the in-game SMGs. (P.S. If you're going to talk about sensitivity, you need to also say your marksmanship sensitivity and resolution for the numbers to mean anything.) It didn't out-class rifles or shotguns before the nerf and it currently isn't rewarding, because literally the only upside to the gun is its magazine capacity, and that's hardly enough to save it when compared to, say, the ATAC or Manic.

It's not really gone un-noticed by anyone I don't think that some things on ARMAS are a bit wonky, or at least less than ideal, so I just wanted to make a list of some things that I think most people will agree are issues and need fixing. Note that all prices I mention, unless otherwise stated, will be for permanent account bound without premium. 1] Pricing for guns is entirely random; there's simply no consistency. Ideally, there should be a few consistent price setups for guns: E.G. ARMAS only primaries, in-game available primaries, and ARMAS only secondaries, and maybe preset primaries, (potentially changing depending on PR1 or PR2 in some cases,) (note that there are no in-game secondaries you can buy on ARMAS, though I personally think you should be able to buy the in-game role-locked secondaries, or something equivalent, on ARMAS.) Here are some examples of the insanity of ARMAS: The most expensive single gun on ARMAS is the Shredder SB R&D III at about $50, despite almost nobody liking it and it virtually universally being considered underpowered. The FR0Gs are each different prices, with the best FR0G being the cheapest. (It's worth noting that the cheapest one doesn't come with skins like the other two, but I'll touch on that later in point 5.) The secondaries with in-game meshes are all different random prices (Two at 1,799, and one each at 2,799, 3,499, and 2,899.) Sometimes preset variants of guns are the same price, sometimes they're cheaper, and sometimes, as with the SHAW and ALIG, the preset variant is more expensive. Presets should either be the same price or cheaper across the board. Many guns have bizarre price differences between seemingly equivalent variant and derivative guns, E.G. the ACES Rifle is more expensive than the ACES SMG, the ATAC 'Watchman' is far more expensive than the 'Patroller', the TAS20 - Stock costs more than the Tactical: the list goes on, I think you get the point. 2] Some guns were removed from ARMAS that really should not have been for no good reason: STAR 556 LCR PR1, STAR 556 'LCR' PR2, and STAR 556 'LCR' 'Old Glory': The LCR is an entirely unique gun that cannot be obtained except a not so great version on the Joker Store, which isn't really sustainable if you actually want to use the gun consistently. Having it no longer obtainable at all is simply dumb. (Note that the Old Glory was never totally added to ARMAS.) OCA-EW 626.2-SD 'Silverado': This is the only way you can have any level of CJ and a silencer on an OCA, since they're both red mods. The trade-off is that it's only CJ2, but still, it's not a terrible trade-off for a little less recoil necessarily. This is a unique and fun gun that should be available IMO, though it's not essential that it be added back, and I can see a case for it being a fun exclusive for older players who bought it before it was removed. Colby SNR 850 PR1: I know a lot of people think the SNR is just a troll gun, but that doesn't mean people should be incapable of getting one of the two best versions of this gun, and the only permanent version that was readily available before it was removed. N-HVR 762-SD PR2: Sniper rifles are one of the few categories where silencers are useful, considering that they're effective past radar range so being more quiet can give an advantage since you're not on the radar anyways. Better yet, you could put an N-HVR 762-SD DVAH (Sniper Silencer and two open slots) on ARMAS, since you can already obtain the Golden N-HVR 762-SD Dvah off of the Joker Store and the PSR 'Osprey' R&D III off of ARMAS, which is a reskin of the N-HVR 762 with a Sniper Silencer and two slots. 3] Additionally, the RAF exclusive guns, specifically the VBR 'Temptress' and Obeya CAP40-C NFCP 2 should be added to ARMAS, as they're unique and entirely unobtainable, only ever being obtainable through the unfinished RAF system that was on ARMAS. Alternatively, they could be added as loyalty rewards. 4] The Joker RFP-9 'Comanche' and ACT44 'Pillager' still say they're not skinnable, despite this being fixed ages ago. (Side note, the gun should be named " ACT 44 'Pillager' ".) 5] The distribution of the unique skins in the FR0G series of pistols needs to be fixed. There are three pistols and six skins. Two of the three pistols come with two skins each. The third pistol comes with no skins. The pack of all three pistols comes with two skins that are exclusive to the pack (six skins total.) From this data it's clear to me that the original intent was for each pistol to come with two skins, but RP decided that they wanted to add a bundle, and put something exclusive in it as a marketing tactic, so they took two of the skins from one pistol and put them as exclusives for the bundle instead of making something to be an exclusive for the bundle. Please fix this and give each FR0G two skins, because ~31% off of the price is already enough incentive to buy the pack. 6] The Hazard skin is displayed on an AMG-556 'Medusa', which is not a skinnable gun. I believe the intent was probably to picture an AMG-556 'Euryale', but as it is showing the skin on a gun that you cannot put skins on is false advertising. Similarly, the Urban Spec Ops skin is displayed on a silenced variant of the N-HVR 762, which you can no longer obtain a skinnable version of (See point 2.) 7] Tons of images are missing off of ARMAS. 8] The pricing on kits and cars is extremely bizarre and random. . . . and that's all of the main issues I can think of off of the top of my head, if anyone else has any to bring up I might add them to the OP, but please LO, fix your stuff man.

The Norseman is 11 STK, which basically automatically precludes it from having overdamage. It currently has 45 overdamage and the most it could possible have at 11 STK is 89, which isn't a huge difference TBH. Either way, I'm think the issue with the Norseman is low DPS / high TTK rather than low overdamage.

You're incorrect on every count, because the M-1922 has no purpose outside of being able to be used in MM to be honest, and is awful compared nearly every other SMG (beside perhaps the VAS C-2) when fired from the hip. The strength of the 1922 over every most other SMGs is that it's exceptionally good in MM, so you want to make that better by either using RS1 to make handling recoil easier or HS3 if you're really good at handling recoil. Additionally, you're incorrect about how to mod guns and it is often good to mod guns to cover their weak points, E.G. 3PS is almost essential to all LMGs because they need to be able to swap quickly, but have relatively bad swap times, or take people who use MP3 on LMGs as another example. Additionally, you have no evidence that the M-1922 was intended to be good only at close ranges from the hip, in fact in the balance overview they said they "were expecting to see it slightly improve at a distance," and all of the notes were about trying to make the gun more controllable, and seeming as a gun doesn't need to be controllable for CQC really, they clearly were intending to make the gun easier to use in MM, however they simply failed. G1 was basically making shots in the dark, and for some reason didn't revert the changes to the M-1922 despite them being virtually universally disliked. Additionally, there are several guns beside the M-1922, including the VAS-C2, S1-NA Manic, and arguably the H-9 Curse and ACES SMG, that are SMGs intended to be used at further ranges, either in MM sometimes or as halfway points between SMGs and Assault Rifles. Heck, if you look at the description of the VAS-C2 it says it "brings a lot of the benefits of an assault rifle into a compact SMG frame," are you going to say the VAS-C2 isn't supposed to be used at all like an Assault Rifle just because it's in the SMG category? Similarly, the M-1922 itself states that "This weapon can be very accurate when fired from a braced position," clearly indicating the gun is intended to be used from MM. Furthermore, reverting the recoil would not hurt your playstyle, and since it was universally seen as a nerf, and the gun wasn't overpowered beforehand, nothing but good can come from reverting its recoil. Finally, all of my experiences and everyone I know's experience says that the M-1922 went from being a fairly popular, well balanced gun to going almost entirely unused after they changed its recoil. If the "best possible way" to use the M-1922 is as a worse OCA-EW 626, then I think anyone reasonable will agree that it needs to be reverted to its previous version. The gun is not "workable" in the meta because it's not in the meta, because no matter what way you use it there's another gun that clearly does what you're trying to do much better. If you meant the current balance of the game, then sure, it's workable, but I'm not sure you understand what "meta" means, because it doesn't simply mean the current dynamics of a game's balance, it means the current most effective tactics or components of those tactics. You're the one here who has no clue what he's saying, and I suggest you step back from your opinions and try to simply use an OCA instead of the M-1922 if you're going to insist it's supposed to be used hip-fired.