Please Revert M-1922 (Tommy Gun) Recoil.

[Kewlin 692]

I know that you all are working on a pass over the balance of guns in APB, but I'm not sure how many of you currently working on the game know the history of APB's balance, so I just wanted to make a suggestion on one gun in particular based on its history.

Back before it was changed in 2015 you saw M-1922s all the time: it was currently one of the best choices to bridge the gap between close quarters and close-mid range. However when Reloaded started making balance changes in 2015 they were. . . I don't know if they thought it was a nerf or a buff, but they changed the M-1922's recoil to be far less manageable. While previously the gun had had very high (mostly vertical) recoil, it was manageable if you had a somewhat high sensitivity setup, but they decided that they wanted to make the gun's vertical recoil increase every shot and the horizontal recoil decrease. As it is, the gun doesn't have much horizontal recoil considering its spread and intended range, but the gun already had the highest vertical recoil in the game. What's more, the gun shoots extremely fast, so it gains recoil rapidly.

 

The end result is that most of the time to be at all effective with the M-1922 you need to shoot in bursts. . . you need to shoot what's basically a Tommy Gun. . . in short rapid bursts? The gun relies on its fast TTK to get kills, being a close range weapon, and it already requires more aiming than most close quarters guns because its intended largely to be used in marksmanship mode. . . and adding a requirement to shoot it in bursts while trying to maintain virtually the same RoF makes the gun just not worth using, especially when you consider that the ATAC, Manic, Curse, and Raptor all can do the same job just as well and much easier. I believe the intent might have been that the recoil starts lower than it originally was and then ramps up, making it easier to use, but in effect the gun just always feels more uncontrollable.

 

You could argue, yes, that the 50 round magazine is the saving grace of the M-1922. . . but how great is a large magazine if you can't shoot well full-auto really? and that's only 1.25 more kills per mag than an OCA. Plus, I don't think anyone considered the M-1922 unbalanced before the 2015 weapon rebalance.

 

For reference, here's two threads on the old forums by Reloaded that mention the M-1922 changes:
https://forums-old.gamersfirst.com/topic/386761-m-1922/
https://forums-old.gamersfirst.com/topic/389381-weapon-balance-overview/

 

 

So yeah, if you would, please consider removing curves and redoing the M-1922's recoil when you're doing your balance pass.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Kewlin
Spelling errors

[SLICKIEM 118]

The Typewriter's recoil is harder to manage now, sure, but it DOES beat ATAC's, PMG's, NTEC's still if you have good aim within it's effective range (which is like 15 - 20m). It requires WAY too much effort to make it perform well, I'll give you that, but I think the recoil is fine. The idea is like the SHAW, if you can manage the stupid recoil while tracking an enemy with your mouse you deserve that TTK. The main issue I personally have with it is the marksman FOV is too low (too zoomed in). If they widened that a little it'd be perfect IMO.

[BrandonBranderson 672]

I used to have a lot of fun with the M-1922.  It's not fun anymore.  Hell, any gun that they added variable recoil to stopped being fun.  I REALLY hope the guy they brought back to be in charge of weapon balance isn't the one that came up with the variable recoil idea.

[Kewlin 692]

4 minutes ago, SLICKIEM said:

The Typewriter's recoil is harder to manage now, sure, but it DOES beat ATAC's, PMG's, NTEC's still if you have good aim within it's effective range (which is like 15 - 20m). It requires WAY too much effort to make it perform well, I'll give you that, but I think the recoil is fine. The idea is like the SHAW, if you can manage the stupid recoil while tracking an enemy with your mouse you deserve that TTK. The main issue I personally have with it is the marksman FOV is too low (too zoomed in). If they widened that a little it'd be perfect IMO.

 

Why though? The gun was perfectly balanced and far easier to control before they made it use a curve for recoil. I'm not saying the gun shouldn't have high recoil, but rather that it should have a constant, predictable recoil (with the exception of a little horizontal recoil, which you obviously can't predict.)

 

 

4 minutes ago, BrandonBranderson said:

I used to have a lot of fun with the M-1922.  It's not fun anymore.  Hell, any gun that they added variable recoil to stopped being fun.  I REALLY hope the guy they brought back to be in charge of weapon balance isn't the one that came up with the variable recoil idea.

 

There are certainly instances of curves mechanics that I like, but that whole balance pass was a little bit of a clusterfuck.

 

I'm still unsure which N-TEC 5 I like more, for example, though I do dislike that they entirely changed the N-TEC (I wish they had just nerfed the N-TEC and made the "new" N-TEC into an entirely new gun.) I like all of the Juggernaut guns, which all use lots of curves, the Misery and COBR-A are super fun, I want to get a Hoenir the next time I buy off of ARMAS, just as some examples of guns with curve mechanics that I like.

 

Oh, and the one car that seemingly uses curve mechanics is my favorite performance car, so there's that. Growl 4 lyfe.

 

But yeah, overall I'm against adding curve mechanics to existing guns, 'cause it entirely changes their feel, and I feel like that's spitting in the face of people who like and use that gun.

[Skilljoy 6]

This. The Hazardous and Colby-M1922 are nowhere near as good as they once were. I had to slap Heavy Barrel 3 and HS3 into my two-slot just to get kills with it. At least you guys got the Typewriter, on Xbox we only have two-slot Tommy Guns and the Hazzy is ridiculously overpriced on market. It's not even worth it to me, I actually do better with Ursus at CQC, if you can believe that, lol.

Edited July 2, 2018 by KiIIjoy

[Kewlin 692]

11 minutes ago, KiIIjoy said:

This. The Hazardous and Colby-M1922 are nowhere near as good as they once were. I had to slap Heavy Barrel 3 and HS3 into my two-slot just to get kills with it. At least you guys got the Typewriter, on Xbox we only have two-slot Tommy Guns and the Hazzy is ridiculously overpriced on market. It's not even worth it to me, I actually do better with Ursus at CQC, if you can believe that, lol.

 

I have no clue how you could even attempt to use the 1922 on console, it'd be so painful! XD

 

Also, yeah, not being able to get any of the Loyalty Reward guns on XB1 sucks, I hope they add a system for you all to get them somehow at some point.

[BrandonBranderson 672]

45 minutes ago, Kewlin said:

There are certainly instances of curves mechanics that I like, but that whole balance pass was a little bit of a clusterfuck.

 

I'm still unsure which N-TEC 5 I like more, for example, though I do dislike that they entirely changed the N-TEC (I wish they had just nerfed the N-TEC and made the "new" N-TEC into an entirely new gun.) I like all of the Juggernaut guns, which all use lots of curves, the Misery and COBR-A are super fun, I want to get a Hoenir the next time I buy off of ARMAS, just as some examples of guns with curve mechanics that I like.

 

Oh, and the one car that seemingly uses curve mechanics is my favorite performance car, so there's that. Growl 4 lyfe.

 

But yeah, overall I'm against adding curve mechanics to existing guns, 'cause it entirely changes their feel, and I feel like that's spitting in the face of people who like and use that gun.

That's pretty much how I feel about it too.  I just hate that they added it to existing guns.  I'm cool with all of the ones they added later like the Norseman series and the Juggernaut guns, the Growl is really fun to drive too.  I don't have enough experience with the Misery or COBR-A to know how to feel about them.

[Skilljoy 6]

2 hours ago, Kewlin said:

 

I have no clue how you could even attempt to use the 1922 on console, it'd be so painful! XD

 

Also, yeah, not being able to get any of the Loyalty Reward guns on XB1 sucks, I hope they add a system for you all to get them somehow at some point.

Good to know the PC guys got our backs, thanks. Haha. 

[Excalibur! 207]

Cj3, mp3, ms. You go marksman an tap fire that how i use it.

If you want it to be more rangy, then hs3 and ir3 with ms. Tap fire and thats it. Everyone needs to get cover or die in a cloud of blood.

[professionalgamer 32]

maybe ur just bad kiddo

[Kewlin 692]

1 minute ago, professionalgamer said:

maybe ur just bad kiddo

 

Yes, everyone stopped using the M-1922 because I'm bad, sound logic.

[professionalgamer 32]

4 minutes ago, Kewlin said:

 

Yes, everyone stopped using the M-1922 because I'm bad, sound logic.

 

lel ur just a forum warrior m8 no1 cares about the tommy gun if u had half a brain u would want the servers to work prior to changing a single p2w weapon

[Kewlin 692]

Just now, professionalgamer said:

 

lel ur just a forum warrior m8 no1 cares about the tommy gun if u had half a brain u would want the servers to work prior to changing a single p2w weapon

 

You're calling a gun you can buy from contacts pay to win and implying I don't play APB much? Plus, if you'd paid attention to anything you'd know they're doing a balance pass soon-ish, so whether I want the servers to perform better more than I want better balance is irrelevant (plus+, I'm pretty sure they don't need another post saying the servers aren't doing great.)

 

Please get better at shitposting before you come back to the forums again.

[Knite 158]

7 hours ago, SLICKIEM said:

The Typewriter's recoil is harder to manage now, sure, 

I run 12.2 sensitivity at 2k DPI and I have to move my mouse downwards like crazy when full-autoing the Tommy gun; it wasn't too strong before the change, I'm with Kewlin on this one.

 

[professionalgamer 32]

Just now, Kewlin said:

 

You're calling a gun you can buy from contacts pay to win and implying I don't play APB much? Plus, if you'd paid attention to anything you'd know they're doing a balance pass soon-ish, so whether I want the servers to perform better more than I want better balance is irrelevant (plus+, I'm pretty sure they don't need another post saying the servers aren't doing great.)

 

Please get better at shitposting before you come back to the forums again.

 

im implying im better at apb than u and far more qualified to tackle game balance

anyone with any sense would completely rework apbs entire infrastructure including all the awful weapon mechanics such as linear damage drop off and predictable spread/recoil patterns

i can handle the recoil of the tommy gun because i play on a very high dpi and sens which 99% of apb players do not

yes the tommy gun is autistic but that doesnt mean we should be telling some green threat developers to start making random changes to numbers to 'balance' a weapon by making it equally fast at killing some1 at a slightly different range because that makes no sense whats so ever and is the cause of autistic guns such as the hvr and ntec which are literally viable at 0-100m

1 minute ago, Knite said:

I run 12.2 sensitivity at 2k DPI and I have to move my mouse downwards like crazy when full-autoing the Tommy gun; it wasn't too strong before the change, I'm with Kewlin on this one.

 

 

something is awfully wrong with ur computer if u are having to use 2k dpi and 12.2, which is basically nudging ur mouse to do a 360 turn

[Kewlin 692]

9 minutes ago, professionalgamer said:

 

im implying im better at apb than u and far more qualified to tackle game balance

anyone with any sense would completely rework apbs entire infrastructure including all the awful weapon mechanics such as linear damage drop off and predictable spread/recoil patterns

i can handle the recoil of the tommy gun because i play on a very high dpi and sens which 99% of apb players do not

yes the tommy gun is autistic but that doesnt mean we should be telling some green threat developers to start making random changes to numbers to 'balance' a weapon by making it equally fast at killing some1 at a slightly different range because that makes no sense whats so ever and is the cause of autistic guns such as the hvr and ntec which are literally viable at 0-100m

 

Can you just stop? You clearly have no idea what's going on and just want a place to talk.

 

Thanks.

 

P.S.

 

1. How are you qualified for anything if you think the 1922, which you can easily get in-game, is P2W?

2. Lots of guns have non-linear dropoff, which is a commonly known fact.

3. I'm assuming you mean you have a high overall sensitivity setup because high DPI alone doesn't mean anything, and that's a bad idea TBH.

4. You just said you agree with me that the M-1922 is messed up, and yet you're pretending to be contrarian? Please just take a run around the block instead of stroking you peen on the forums to deal with your anger issues.

5. It's commonly known that LO is hiring old staff to do things they know they aren't qualified to do.

6. ". . . that doesnt mean we should be telling some green threat developers to start making random changes to numbers to 'balance' a weapon by making it equally fast at killing some1 at a slightly different range because that makes no sense whats so ever and is the cause of autistic guns such as the hvr and ntec which are literally viable at 0-100m" . . . what the fuck does that even mean?

7. You literally haven't stated any ways that you disagree with me, so why are you raging at me so hard exactly?

[professionalgamer 32]

1 minute ago, Kewlin said:

 

Can you just stop? You clearly have no idea what's going on and just want a place to talk.

 

Thanks.

 

 

  Hide contents

 

 

P.S.

 

1. How are you qualified for anything if you think the 1922, which you can easily get in-game, is P2W?

2. Lots of guns have non-linear dropoff, which is a commonly known fact.

3. I'm assuming you mean you have a high overall sensitivity setup because high DPI alone doesn't mean anything, and that's a bad idea TBH.

4. You just said you agree with me that the M-1922 is messed up, and yet you're pretending to be contrarian? Please just take a run around the block instead of stroking you peen on the forums to deal with your anger issues.

5. It's commonly known that LO is hiring old staff to do things they know they aren't qualified to do.

6. ". . . that doesnt mean we should be telling some green threat developers to start making random changes to numbers to 'balance' a weapon by making it equally fast at killing some1 at a slightly different range because that makes no sense whats so ever and is the cause of autistic guns such as the hvr and ntec which are literally viable at 0-100m" . . . what the fuck does that even mean?

7. You literally haven't stated any ways that you disagree with me, so why are you raging at me so hard exactly?
 

 

 

 

[magik 184]

I agree, the 1922 does need some reworking from that 2015 patch.

 

I haven't been able to use it for a year.

 

Also:

17 minutes ago, professionalgamer said:

 

You're shooting at a wall. Not against another player in the heat of the moment, both of you erratically moving around.

What you've done is easy, and manageable. What Kewlin is actually describing is the use of the gun in combat.

 

It's like building a gun in peace time for war, with a swordsmith.

It just won't be that good.

 

[professionalgamer 32]

since u forumers insist on bulletpoints:

 

1. How are you qualified for anything if you think the 1922, which you can easily get in-game, is P2W? its p2w because u can only access a 3 slot tommy gun by paying money

2. Lots of guns have non-linear dropoff, which is a commonly known fact.  every single gun has linear dropoff

3. I'm assuming you mean you have a high overall sensitivity setup because high DPI alone doesn't mean anything, and that's a bad idea TBH. i play on high sens because i have perfected aim and therefore use it to assist my reaction speed

4. You just said you agree with me that the M-1922 is messed up, and yet you're pretending to be contrarian? Please just take a run around the block instead of stroking you peen on the forums to deal with your anger issues. using the word contrarian is cringe because u dont know what it means

5. It's commonly known that LO is hiring old staff to do things they know they aren't qualified to do. please show me some gameplay of lo all ive heard is that matt cant aim and lixil cant aim, time played or experience does not dictate natural talent

6. ". . . that doesnt mean we should be telling some green threat developers to start making random changes to numbers to 'balance' a weapon by making it equally fast at killing some1 at a slightly different range because that makes no sense whats so ever and is the cause of autistic guns such as the hvr and ntec which are literally viable at 0-100m" . . . what the fuck does that even mean? it means im so high iq that i am effectively playing chess while u are playing checkers, apb doesnt have the systems to balance weapons and therefore apb must be reworked not rebalanced

7. You literally haven't stated any ways that you disagree with me, so why are you raging at me so hard exactly? im furious right now@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ reeeeeeeeeeee

[professionalgamer 32]

17 minutes ago, Sergsininia said:

I agree, the 1922 does need some reworking from that 2015 patch.

 

I haven't been able to use it for a year.

 

Also:

You're shooting at a wall. Not against another player in the heat of the moment, both of you erratically moving around.

What you've done is easy, and manageable. What Kewlin is actually describing is the use of the gun in combat.

 

It's like building a gun in peace time for war, with a swordsmith.

It just won't be that good.

 

 

"it just wont be that good" ???? its almost functionally identical to the oca all it requires is the ability to track with marksman (WOAH calm down smarty pants im still learning the true ogre!!!)

[SLICKIEM 118]

It's a niche weapon that you have to learn a specific playstyle for. If you do this, it will reward you.

 

Edited July 3, 2018 by SLICKIEM

[Kewlin 692]

12 hours ago, SLICKIEM said:

It's a niche weapon that you have to learn a specific playstyle for. If you do this, it will reward you.

 

 

How about because it was nerfed for absolutely no reason, seemingly with the intent of buffing it?

 

If a gun that nobody thought was OP drops out of use entirely after an update, then as a rule of thumb something probably needs to be reverted.

[CookiePuss 5373]

M-1922 is more difficult to use than other SMG's and with the only benefit being larger mag size.

Slower TTK at .67 than the ACES (.63) and the OCA and Manic (.64) and less range than the PMG and Manic (35m vs 30m for M-1922). It also has a worse base accuracy than the ACES smg (21cm at 10m vs 28cm at 10m).

I dont think asking for a reduction in recoil or even other buffs is out of line.

 

[professionalgamer 32]

11 minutes ago, CookiePuss said:

M-1922 is more difficult to use than other SMG's and with the only benefit being larger mag size.

Slower TTK at .67 than the ACES (.63) and the OCA and Manic (.64) and less range than the PMG and Manic (35m vs 30m for M-1922). It also has a worse base accuracy than the ACES smg (21cm at 10m vs 28cm at 10m).

I dont think asking for a reduction in recoil or even other buffs is out of line.

 

wow dude the oca kills 6% faster than the tommy

im pretty sure that the tommy gun is far more likely to ttk than the oca

getting an 8 shot kill with the oca is very unlikely

[CookiePuss 5373]

13 minutes ago, professionalgamer said:

 

im pretty sure that the tommy gun is far more likely to ttk than the oca

getting an 8 shot kill with the oca is very unlikely

Yeah the OCA has the downside of less accuracy, the Tommy of being ADS cqc.

But that is a good point.