Remove OPGL from FC

[JunoSuzuki 99]

8 minutes ago, LilyRain said:

The wind-up mechanic was introduced and got added to some devastating-weapons in order to make their devastation less prompt (a cheap fix but it is what they went with)

 

- OSMAW can one-shot just like O-PGL, but its max damage radius is higher and the rocket's travel speed is 47.5m/s. The windup mechanic prevents it from being as abused as much as it was years ago. It was truly a FEARSOME primary weapon (and those days were also more fun).

- Nfas True-Ogre... without the windup, it would kill in 0.4 seconds, making it the King of CQC.

- The EOL series: You have the Deep Impact, Kickback and The Hammer, they have fuse timers of 2.5s, 2s and 1.5s respectively (substantially faster than your average grenade fuse-timer of 4 seconds). These weapons having a wind-up time kinda makes things even [their only problem is having a super-strict magazine capacity, exception being the Deep Impact. Deep Impact can't kill without reloading or using a secondary/grenade].

 

I personally think having too many wind-up timers aren't healthy for the game, but if you're going in that route, the 5-seconds fuse-timer on the O-PGL must go down or you'd just be committing the same mistake LO did. That mistake being changing 1 variable in a game where weapons have an entire page of stats to change and expecting that to be sufficient.

Tbh i wish they'd just develop a tool for everyone to change weapon stats in the game in a dedicated district so you can actually see what happens if you put an HVR on a fire interval of 0,096 + automatic or what happens if you put the blue micro rocket mod on a SHAW. Well okay, not for this kind of stuff but there would be people that would try stuff for serious and it would be easier to see what actualy happens if you change a number just one tiny bit. As i said, i dont even know if what i suggested even works out well and definitely needs adjustment. Windup timer is a good tool for very strong weapons that's why i thought it would fit well. If that doesnt work with the fuse timer this also can be adjusted but at this point i can only try to think that through in my head without seeing what it actually does ingame.

[LilyRain 671]

1 minute ago, JunoSuzuki said:

Tbh i wish they'd just develop a tool for everyone to change weapon stats in the game in a dedicated district so you can actually see what happens if you put an HVR on a fire interval of 0,096 + automatic or what happens if you put the blue micro rocket mod on a SHAW. Well okay, not for this kind of stuff but there would be people that would try stuff for serious and it would be easier to see what actualy happens if you change a number just one tiny bit. As i said, i dont even know if what i suggested even works out well and definitely needs adjustment. Windup timer is a good tool for very strong weapons that's why i thought it would fit well. If that doesnt work with the fuse timer this also can be adjusted but at this point i can only try to think that through in my head without seeing what it actually does ingame.

A test-environment like that would be very nice to have indeed. The best thing we currently have is a built-in calculator on APBDB: https://apbdb.com/build/Weapon_LMG_SHAW556_Slot3_Armas/?mods=FnMod_Weapon_MicroRockets

Of course, you already know that Micro Rockets on Shaw won't do anything (you said it as an example) so there are no effects to SHAW's stats in the link.

Knowing how the game is currently and how to calculate things from such links (e.g effective initial accuracy, current bloom after X many shots, etc...) is the definitive way to arrive at conclusions that you can  trust without a playtest. Not that playtests are bad, quite the opposite. It is just that playtests require time to setup.

 

Long-story made a bit shorter, playtests without a reasonable direction and remotely fair numbers on paper are simply a time-sink, because many tests on the same thing must happen in order to reach a new good state (trial and error). These happened even on Live Servers in dedicated Districts A and B. Changes were either too much, too little or on a stat that was completely meaningless on said weapon. There was no end-vision nor direction at all + minimal to no compensation on adjacent stats on the same & other weapons around it (like when LO nerfed the equip time on the SNR Snubnose from 0.1 to 0.5s, they buffed its damage to compensate on a later patch, not the same one....).

[Cr0 328]

1 hour ago, JunoSuzuki said:

k let's play minesweeper then.

Is it neccessary in a house where people can come from every side? It's not just you sitting at the front defending your objective you have teammates coming from all directions. Forcing the opps away completely isnt an advantage its just unfair.

Yea, that's why 4 (8) would be a little better. 

It makes it unpredictable where your teammate or enemy is shooting from. Other explosive users are easy to spot or figure out where they are. OPGL just goes FOMP! and you dont know where it came from or where it lands. EOL has the same projectile size but the slightly yellow and consistent trial makes it easier to predict

Yes a weapon is supposed to hurt/kill people. But look at the stuff you stated as the same. Snipers can't clear an entire room, are immobile and not able to stall people around several corners. You have to actually look at your opponent directly.

If someone shot an OPGL nade into a room i go in with SMG and pick up all pre-damaged people in there. Corner camping can be countered by the 2 grenades you have. If you decide to waste them by just yeeting them at every corner you see then idk. And yes:

 

Use flak jacket in Asylum to get less damage from ONE opponent or teammate and be vulnerable for the other 19 people running around. For ONE person. Seems balanced.

There are 39 other gun sounds including mine and explosive sounds like OSMAW or Volcano going on around me plus me sometimes cooking a nade and actually listening to the sound of that to not bomb myself.

 

Yes very visible when i directly have it in my face and not trickshot behind my back. Also, watch how the grenade behaves next time you use your OPGL. The grenade actually sinks into the ground. Stuff happens fast in the chaotic environment called Asylum and that got me killed several times without knowing it prior because how should i know this if i havent heard and havent seen the grenade in said chaos? 

 

Weird. Somehow people manage to perfectly get into these rooms and clear them without heavy artillery shattering the entire building. They use grenades. Frag, cong, low yield, perc, what ever you prefer. People get pissed of as soon as someone pulls the OPGL not JUST because you cant escape it but because teammates are an annoyance, an unpredicable one.

I get TKd by OPGL 90% of the time. The other 10% are regular grenades thrown by teammates that just missed their throw, didnt know i was there or so called death nades dropped by someone that died. Unfortunate. Can happen but at least most people throw their nades carefully.

Just because you managed to pick on every single point alone doesnt mean that all points together don't make this weapon an annoying frustration factor. I neither want to be intimidating by saying this expecting that no one has a point against it. I am just looking for someone pro OPGL that can argue on a better base than "jUsT uSe FlAk JAcKeT" or "gEt GuD LoL" and aknowledge that this weapon has some problems compared to how other weapons are designed. I also don't hate the OPGL and want it removed from the game, i actually like it and it has it's place on mission districts and Baylan too since its easier to overlook.

Only thing i can do is proving my points why it should be removed from Asylum or how it can be changed to still fit it's role and can be kept on this map.

 

@LilyRain Yes of course add sprint delay to it as well, i just forgot that detail i am sorry. About it's function being similiar to HoHoHo PGL i actually dont refer to the HoHo's stats. What i mean is the auto fire function if you hold LMB that would still result in a fire interval of 1,750 seconds and not the HoHo's 0,183 seconds or whatever it is right now. The firerate is still the same for OPGL just automatic and with the drawback that if you stop firing, you'd have to windup again.

 

When I read your post it's obvious that you're complaining about some experience you had where you repeatedly tried to camp in a room where someone was stopping you by using an OPGL and now you're trying to come up with arguments why it was everyone's and everything's fault but yours.

 

[JunoSuzuki 99]

24 minutes ago, Cr0 said:

 

When I read your post it's obvious that you're complaining about some experience you had where you repeatedly tried to camp in a room where someone was stopping you by using an OPGL and now you're trying to come up with arguments why it was everyone's and everything's fault but yours.

 

Have to disappoint you. I never camp in rooms and constantly on the run trying to engage in fights.

[jmiIos 24]

10 hours ago, LilyRain said:

- Blitzkrieg 4 gives a score of 2,150, how do you not get MVP after such an insanely massive boost in score..?

 

- Yeah, tracking for 0.585 seconds only. (without any cooling jacket even). If you can't do that then you can't track with anything in APB as other weapons require substantially more tracking time.

- Meanwhile, O-PGL grenades require 5 full seconds to detonate.

 

- Mindfulness goes both ways and extend to much more than just O-PGL (everyone carries 2 grenades on average you know). Rather than calling idiot this lmao ignorant idiot that, perhaps be the smart one and refrain from escorting O-PGLers down every single hallway of Asylum?

Have you ever even played fc if you can even think that. Happens more than often that you won't get mvp with it, you may have just gotten a few fast lucky kills and then just play bad till the end, have had it happen to me, have had it done to others. Also point captures give a lot of points which i have seen often that people with just few kills can almost be mvp, so no blitz 4 is not much.

 

Encountered players who use it, sometimes even when they are corner camping i can still kill them while some other times i die even when the person is almost 85 and i push them, people can just have bad aim and that's it. opgl doesn't even need to peek to spam his nades, while with the other one you have to. Also with opgl they just spam the nades closer to them if they see u pushing and just fall back and when you can't push them because of it they will just go back to their old position and do it all over again, it becomes even worse if there are teammates with them.

 

With your last statement it really does make me think you almost never played asylum. Do you even know from how for away they can even spam the opgl. Yea, it's really fun when you go look for some very far away kills like snipers camping on 3rd floor where no one is because it's so bad to play at the area where more enemies are because of OPGLERS + GRENADES (as i said, as if grenades aren't enough). And the teammates that do try to take fights there just keep dying over and over because of it, or they just get 85 and just finished off by someone.

 

You can't even compare grenades to opgl, also 5 seconds is nothing compared to the wide damage radius that it has and how tiny it is.

[LilyRain 671]

1 hour ago, jmiIos said:

Have you ever even played fc if you can even think that. Happens more than often that you won't get mvp with it, you may have just gotten a few fast lucky kills and then just play bad till the end, have had it happen to me, have had it done to others. Also point captures give a lot of points which i have seen often that people with just few kills can almost be mvp, so no blitz 4 is not much.

 

Speak for yourself

 

1 hour ago, jmiIos said:

Encountered players who use it, sometimes even when they are corner camping i can still kill them while some other times i die even when the person is almost 85 and i push them, people can just have bad aim and that's it.

Speak for yourself

 

1 hour ago, jmiIos said:

opgl doesn't even need to peek to spam his nades, while with the other one you have to. Also with opgl they just spam the nades closer to them if they see u pushing and just fall back and when you can't push them because of it they will just go back to their old position and do it all over again, it becomes even worse if there are teammates with them.

Nonsense.. players push over the O-PGL grenade that was shot to the floor and attack the O-PGL User before it even explodes... again, it needs 5 full seconds to explode, which is longer than attacking someone who's cooking their grenade.

 

Not sure where you're bringing all that false, hypothetical talk from.

 

1 hour ago, jmiIos said:

With your last statement it really does make me think you almost never played asylum. Do you even know from how for away they can even spam the opgl. Yea, it's really fun when you go look for some very far away kills like snipers camping on 3rd floor where no one is because it's so bad to play at the area where more enemies are because of OPGLERS + GRENADES (as i said, as if grenades aren't enough). And the teammates that do try to take fights there just keep dying over and over because of it, or they just get 85 and just finished off by someone.

3 keywords: O-PGL, distance, spam

 

I am sorry, but these 3 simply don't mix.... 

1 hour ago, jmiIos said:

You can't even compare grenades to opgl, also 5 seconds is nothing compared to the wide damage radius that it has and how tiny it is.

But O-PGL is a grenade launcher, what are you even on about?

 

The meaningful radius is the max damage radius, which happens to be the smallest of all grenades, right at 200cm.... Concussions have wider radius AND detonate faster..

 

I highly recommend making use of APBDB to further familiarize yourself to give meaningful suggestions. Spewing false information, scenarios that don't even happen and obscene-language that doesn't belong in this forum to seek nerfs out of pure-PvP-rage will never serve you any good nor to the game.

 

Better luck with your future posts, I hope to see more quality in them.

 

[jmiIos 24]

1 hour ago, LilyRain said:

Speak for yourself

 

Speak for yourself

 

Nonsense.. players push over the O-PGL grenade that was shot to the floor and attack the O-PGL User before it even explodes... again, it needs 5 full seconds to explode, which is longer than attacking someone who's cooking their grenade.

 

Not sure where you're bringing all that false, hypothetical talk from.

 

3 keywords: O-PGL, distance, spam

 

I am sorry, but these 3 simply don't mix.... 

But O-PGL is a grenade launcher, what are you even on about?

 

The meaningful radius is the max damage radius, which happens to be the smallest of all grenades, right at 200cm.... Concussions have wider radius AND detonate faster..

 

I highly recommend making use of APBDB to further familiarize yourself to give meaningful suggestions. Spewing false information, scenarios that don't even happen and obscene-language that doesn't belong in this forum to seek nerfs out of pure-PvP-rage will never serve you any good nor to the game.

 

Better luck with your future posts, I hope to see more quality in them.

 

i don't know what kind of players you are playing with or against to think that i am making this up, ask players that ACTUALLY play fc if the scenarios that i described happen.

 

The situation where someone spams opgl up the stairs you can push right as he shoots it and it's an easy kill if it's only opgl. But that's not what i was talking about in this thread, Also people that use opgl that are in cover won't fire it at the exact position you are in, if they see you pushing they will fire it at the position that you are going to be in and they will fire it before you even reach

the cover so by the time you reach them the opgl will already be close to exploding.

 

Here is a scenario for you

 

2 opgls below the stairs, by the joker ammo, multiple people there, they are both spamming it and on top of that grenades. If you push them they will just back off while you have to fight with their teammates WHICH ACTUALLY REQUIRES TRACKING while they will just keep spamming their opgls from the cover. So while you are fighting them incase opgler decides to be ignorant(which is quite often) he will spam the opgl anyway which will cause screen shaking which makes tracking harder while also possibly killing you and his teammate. On the other hand, go all the way around push them from the kitchen, but again no matter from where they are pushed they can just keep spamming it, but one would have to go even more around to push ONLY FOR them to just spam it there then. Of course it's not impossible to kill them and their teammates but it slows down fc SO MUCH.

 

I can give you more and more scenarios but you will just keep saying that this doesn't happen, but sure, keep reading that APBDB and thinking that you know a lot about the game and what is

balanced and what not instead of just playing it and seeing it for yourself.

 

Only few hours ago i was on asylum where there were just 6 people(4v2) and person that was using opgl got 3 teamkills. 1 of his teammates left because he got mad, the next round he got 2 teamkills again, even with 3 teammates. Pretty much everyone agreed with me to what i said to him, but forum is not a place for bad names.
But i am the toxic one because i say a few cuss words on forum where those people will turn off group members and just keep killing or tagging their teammates for years now just so they can get a kill, right?
And if you think i am making things up i can give you the name of some people that were playing and they can confirm it.

 

Also i didn't read the entire thread yet, i think i have seen someone talking about nerfing opgl. That wouldn't balance it for fc, opgl is just unbalanced for fc no matter what you do to it mainly because of so many people, on the other hand for missions it's fine the way it is.
 

[LilyRain 671]

6 hours ago, jmiIos said:

i don't know what kind of players you are playing with or against to think that i am making this up, ask players that ACTUALLY play fc if the scenarios that i described happen.

 

The situation where someone spams opgl up the stairs you can push right as he shoots it and it's an easy kill if it's only opgl. But that's not what i was talking about in this thread, Also people that use opgl that are in cover won't fire it at the exact position you are in, if they see you pushing they will fire it at the position that you are going to be in and they will fire it before you even reach

the cover so by the time you reach them the opgl will already be close to exploding.

 

Here is a scenario for you

 

2 opgls below the stairs, by the joker ammo, multiple people there, they are both spamming it and on top of that grenades. If you push them they will just back off while you have to fight with their teammates WHICH ACTUALLY REQUIRES TRACKING while they will just keep spamming their opgls from the cover. So while you are fighting them incase opgler decides to be ignorant(which is quite often) he will spam the opgl anyway which will cause screen shaking which makes tracking harder while also possibly killing you and his teammate. On the other hand, go all the way around push them from the kitchen, but again no matter from where they are pushed they can just keep spamming it, but one would have to go even more around to push ONLY FOR them to just spam it there then. Of course it's not impossible to kill them and their teammates but it slows down fc SO MUCH.

 

I can give you more and more scenarios but you will just keep saying that this doesn't happen, but sure, keep reading that APBDB and thinking that you know a lot about the game and what is

balanced and what not instead of just playing it and seeing it for yourself.

 

Only few hours ago i was on asylum where there were just 6 people(4v2) and person that was using opgl got 3 teamkills. 1 of his teammates left because he got mad, the next round he got 2 teamkills again, even with 3 teammates. Pretty much everyone agreed with me to what i said to him, but forum is not a place for bad names.
But i am the toxic one because i say a few cuss words on forum where those people will turn off group members and just keep killing or tagging their teammates for years now just so they can get a kill, right?
And if you think i am making things up i can give you the name of some people that were playing and they can confirm it.

 

Also i didn't read the entire thread yet, i think i have seen someone talking about nerfing opgl. That wouldn't balance it for fc, opgl is just unbalanced for fc no matter what you do to it mainly because of so many people, on the other hand for missions it's fine the way it is.
 

Again with the "you don't play Asylum" and scenarios that only happen to those who are yet to learn the most basic fundamentals of this game...

 

I played enough Asylum to do things like this:

 

Now, why wasn't an O-PGLer MVP or teamkilled me enough to prevent me from being MVP myself, with literally the WEAKEST setup in the game against the crowded Asylum? Real people show real examples and results, my friend..

 

And you dare talk low of APBDB, the website that is literally managed by LO & SPCT-member "Speed" to deliver actual game stats that you won't find reliably anywhere else? That already tells enough..

 

Perhaps it is time for you to start learning how the game and this place works to better contribute towards APB's future, rather than 'omg, please remove O-PGL from Asylum because we had a 4v2 game and O-PGLer got mad and teamkilled us'.... Grow up, would you?

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Just another rage-driven pls remove/nerf thread, add it to the pile.

 

[JunoSuzuki 99]

1 hour ago, LilyRain said:

Yee

 

Still think theres something wrong with this weapon that could be made better to make it a little less annoying. I also don't think OPGL gives people instant MVP and makes them top tier players. It's just annoying af getting stalled or stupidly killed because of said reasons. My suggestions are by far not a final thing that i want to have enforced i am just annoyed by one-word or one-line posts and wanna see a real discussion about it because there's definitely the need of talking about it.

 

 

I'd like to keep OPGL in asylum with certain changes rather than removing it. 

[LilyRain 671]

4 hours ago, JunoSuzuki said:

Still think theres something wrong with this weapon that could be made better to make it a little less annoying. I also don't think OPGL gives people instant MVP and makes them top tier players. It's just annoying af getting stalled or stupidly killed because of said reasons. My suggestions are by far not a final thing that i want to have enforced i am just annoyed by one-word or one-line posts and wanna see a real discussion about it because there's definitely the need of talking about it.

 

 

I'd like to keep OPGL in asylum with certain changes rather than removing it. 

Yes, I've seen that thread & it brings attention to the importance of qualitatively-quantifying numbers in polls than just take them at face-value like Presidential Elections. 60 to 42 when most votes are based on pure-annoyance isn't a great nor alarming ratio. If you want to make some serious change, go back to the root of the problem: Explosives in APB.

 

O-PGL is simply a grenade-launcher, the annoyance around it is not so different from grenades themselves, which also receive quite some hate both in and out of FightClub as well. Grenades also factually happen to be more practical, dangerous and annoying than O-PGL & already received nerfs prior to this thread.

 

If you'd like to edit O-PGL, you must also edit all explosives in the game (good thing health and hard damages are separate so no immediate need to revisit vehicle balancing). Keep in mind that the general time-to-kill in this game is relatively high for a shooter-game, which is the very reason why corner-camping is much easier to do in APB compared to other games and guarantees kills 9/10 of the time (it is even easier now with the questionable x2 heal rate medspray received). Explosives are usually what cleans those cowardly Corner Campers. Nerf Explosives without compensating and you'll make their lives once again even easier. I'm sure people will dislike this fact if such thing happens and it becomes the new reality. You'll dream of going back & threads to roll back will again surface but this time including explosives.

 

Properly editing explosives requires base weapons to settle in first, which are still being modified up & down to this date, else you'd only be looking at a cheap-fix that will last so long players would lose hope (we had many of those and we don't need more, e.g HVR's damage dependence on reticle bloom [♪♫ßΣ this with passion], questionable consumables, etc..)

The latest attempt which is still open is made by SPCT @Frosi here: 

 

 

↑ with this, I'm not ending the discussion. I'd like to see more of it but I posted that thread just in case if you believe you have a sufficient plan or an idea of where O-PGL should be in APB, you get to catch up by voting your stat-adjustments on Frosi's sheet.

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Now addressing your intention of wanting to "see a real discussion" about this topic, truth be told, knowing the problem is 80% of the solution. With sentences like:

 

"Still think theres something wrong with this weapon that could be made better to make it a little less annoying"

"It's just annoying af getting stalled or stupidly killed because of said reasons"

 

I'd like to know what lies beyond "annoying" exists to the point where O-PGL & grenades are not fair in the current state of balance in APB? Because "annoying" alone isn't sufficient to produce satisfactory results. We have already seen what happens to gameplay when balancing happens just to accommodate for annoyance, nothing but less options and even more repetitive gameplay where only few things ever work in a serious match. 

 

Weapon Balancing aims to deliver FAIRNESS. If you can prove that O-PGL or explosives are not fair then it is only natural for a substantial, focused-change to be warranted without overhauling everything. "Annoying" and "stupid" are not enough.

Edited February 19, 2021 by LilyRain

[JunoSuzuki 99]

7 minutes ago, LilyRain said:

Yes, I've seen that thread & it brings attention to the importance of qualitatively-quantifying numbers in polls than just take them at face-value like Presidential Elections. 60 to 42 when most votes are based on pure-annoyance isn't a great nor alarming ratio. If you want to make some serious change, go back to the root of the problem: Explosives in APB.

 

O-PGL is simply a grenade-launcher, the annoyance around it is not so different from grenades themselves, which also receive quite some hate both in and out of FightClub as well. Grenades also factually happen to be more practical, dangerous and annoying than O-PGL & already received nerfs prior to this thread.

Well it's a quite frequently discussed topic and besides the poll i've seen people everywhere complaining about it. I use this to underline my argument because complaints don't come out of nowhere and even among people that want to see it get removed there are huge differences. While i don't 100% agree with the thread opener and kinda have my own approach or experience both of us come to the same conclusion. And i made lots of experience by asking people online, playing OPGL myself and see what happens, watching other people playing OPGL and how they play it and what OPGL was made for and if it's really needed on a map that has most of it's spots inside a house with areas that you can clear with your own hand grenates instead of cheesing on people with pocket artillery.

7 minutes ago, LilyRain said:

 

If you'd like to edit O-PGL, you must also edit all explosives in the game (good thing health and hard damages are separate so no immediate need to revisit vehicle balancing). Keep in mind that the general time-to-kill in this game is relatively high for a shooter-game, which is the very reason why corner-camping is much easier to do in APB compared to other game and guarantees kills 9/10 of the time (it is even easier now with the questionable x2 heal rate medspray received). Explosives are usually what cleans those cowardly Corner Campers. Nerf Explosives without compensating and you'll make their lives once again even easier. I'm sure people will dislike this fact if such thing happens and it becomes the new reality. You'll dream of going back & threads to roll back will again surface but this time including explosives.

I don't think you have to change every other explosive if you change OPGL. Every explosive is too different and each of them having a different role and advantages. I played Volcano when i had one, OSMAW and i once bothered myself playing an EOL. Ive seen others playing said weapons and also had someone doing good with EOL on the enemies side. This weapon is also able to push very good it just gives me a slight chance while OPGLs blast radius doesnt allow anything tbh. Probably pressing the speed pen into my veins and hope i get out of the radiation zone blast radius.

7 minutes ago, LilyRain said:

 

Properly editing explosives requires base weapons to settle in first, which are still being modified up & down to this date, else you'd only be looking at a cheap-fix that will last so long players would lose hope (we had many of those and we don't need more, e.g HVR's damage dependence on reticle bloom [♪♫ßΣ this with passion], questionable consumables, etc..)

The latest attempt which is still open is made by SPCT @Frosi here: 

 

 

↑ with this, I'm not ending the discussion. I'd like to see more of it but I posted that thread just in case if you believe you have a sufficient plan or an idea of where O-PGL should be in APB, you get to catch up by voting your stat-adjustments on Frosi's sheet.

Yes i know that one! A very nice approach of @Frosi to do this kind of stuff  I just didnt have time to think about it but i was taking a look at that.

7 minutes ago, LilyRain said:

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Now addressing your intention of wanting to "see a real discussion" about this topic, truth be told, knowing the problem is 80% of the solution. With sentences like:

 

"Still think theres something wrong with this weapon that could be made better to make it a little less annoying"

"It's just annoying af getting stalled or stupidly killed because of said reasons"

 

I'd like to know what lies beyond "annoying" exists to the point where O-PGL & grenades are not fair in the current state of balance in APB? Because "annoying" alone isn't sufficient to produce satisfactory results. We have already seen what happens to gameplay when balancing happens just to accommodate for annoyance, nothing but less options and even more repetitive gameplay where only few things ever work in a serious match. 

 

Weapon Balancing aims to deliver FAIRNESS. If you can prove that O-PGL or explosives are not fair then it is only natural for a substantial, focused-change to be warranted without overhauling everything. "Annoying" and "stupid" are not enough.

Annoying and Stupid are short words for stuff that i just explained several times now and if i would repeat that over and over again it would make tired.

 

Annoying as in i can not play in asylum how i'd like to play besides already taking care of my teammates actions. Getting stalled at a certain area and being forced to run around the entire building from a different direction to go somewhere because a teammate or opponent decide to bomb one door a couple of times. 5 seconds fuse. 4 grenades. That's 20 seconds of people just waiting til its over. Mostly annoying if a teammate does that and slightly annoying if the enemy is able to just refill it everytime.

 

Stupid as in teammates that are not able to use this weapon being a danger for themself and their teammates. I can take care of people cooking nades and not run into the direction they're throwing it. But i can't look out where my teammate might have shot his nade like from outside into the inside without my knowledge. Stuff happens very fast in asylum which is important. OPGL kinda slows things down sometimes. 

 

Also, sometimes i might not use strict stats to say how i want OPGL to be and kinda use my own words for that. I can tell where i see it, how certain mechanics could be and stuff because throwing around with numbers that much even without knowing exactly how it would change stuff is a bit unsatisfying. I like to actually see results first tbh and change numbers til i get what i want to see.

 

So ye, i really appreciate you taking the time. If we agree or disagree but it's interesting to exchange opinions with someone that thinks otherwise.

[LilyRain 671]

22 minutes ago, JunoSuzuki said:

Well it's a quite frequently discussed topic and besides the poll i've seen people everywhere complaining about it. I use this to underline my argument because complaints don't come out of nowhere and even among people that want to see it get removed there are huge differences. While i don't 100% agree with the thread opener and kinda have my own approach or experience both of us come to the same conclusion. And i made lots of experience by asking people online, playing OPGL myself and see what happens, watching other people playing OPGL and how they play it and what OPGL was made for and if it's really needed on a map that has most of it's spots inside a house with areas that you can clear with your own hand grenates instead of cheesing on people with pocket artillery.

More like it is quite a frequently raged-on topic.

 

What was the tangible conclusion/proof from all of those topics and 'discussions' that deemed O-PGL unfair? If those complaints didn't "come out of nowhere", you surely can put those on the table as you yourself requested, rather than just avoid it in such manner... You said you were "annoyed by one-word or one-line posts and wanna see a real discussion about it because there's definitely the need of talking about it". Yet there is no tangible discussion here.

 

The thread opener was nothing but a dot ".", and your opener was:

- find what I believe in outside this thread

- I asked people

- I saw people play it well

 

The same can be said about a lot of weapons. Where is the specific discussion/evidence that specifically calls for removing, nerfing or overhauling O-PGL?

 

23 minutes ago, JunoSuzuki said:

I don't think you have to change every other explosive if you change OPGL. Every explosive is too different and each of them having a different role and advantages. I played Volcano when i had one, OSMAW and i once bothered myself playing an EOL. Ive seen others playing said weapons and also had someone doing good with EOL on the enemies side. This weapon is also able to push very good it just gives me a slight chance while OPGLs blast radius doesnt allow anything tbh. Probably pressing the speed pen into my veins and hope i get out of the radiation zone blast radius.

 

Except the only difference being the way they travel. You either throw/launch a grenade or send a rocket. Ultimately explosives are defined by the end-result, that is an explosion that deals health and hard damage over radii defined by stats.

 

You said it yourself, O-PGL's blast radius isn't as good as EOL's. More so taking an extra mile to say "doesnt allow anything tbh". That is an indirect-confession that O-PGL is not a problem.

 

You imply that you are okay with Rocket Launchers as they are, which is highly-interesting because OSMAW can also kill in 1 explosion just the O-PGL and can deliver that kill substantially faster.. Quite the contradiction there...

 

29 minutes ago, JunoSuzuki said:

Annoying as in i can not play in asylum how i'd like to play besides already taking care of my teammates actions. Getting stalled at a certain area and being forced to run around the entire building from a different direction to go somewhere because a teammate or opponent decide to bomb one door a couple of times. 5 seconds fuse. 4 grenades. That's 20 seconds of people just waiting til its over. Mostly annoying if a teammate does that and slightly annoying if the enemy is able to just refill it everytime.

 

Stupid as in teammates that are not able to use this weapon being a danger for themself and their teammates. I can take care of people cooking nades and not run into the direction they're throwing it. But i can't look out where my teammate might have shot his nade like from outside into the inside without my knowledge. Stuff happens very fast in asylum which is important. OPGL kinda slows things down sometimes. 

Again, you are overstressing on your annoyance and calling teammates stupid because they're not playing the game the way YOU want it to be played, quite unhealthy. Perhaps THEY want to O-PGL, why should YOUR preference be pushed forward when you are presenting zero-evidence of O-PGL being unfair? Or better yet a workable new state?

 

I say this because you're telling me you can deal with people cooking grenades, but you can't deal with friendly-O-PGLs that you are always aware of their exact position and distance in meters, via their names that appear above their heads THROUGH walls... That's incredibly hard to believe..

 

More interestingly, you imply that you want gameplay to be faster because your current play-solution is to just wait it out.. On its own this implies wanting a fuse-timer buff. I already asked if you were sure that you wanted an O-PGL buff and that is yet to be answered.

 

Your plan in this very thread states nerfing "ammo capacity from from 4 (12) to 4 (8)".. You clearly proposed keeping the magazine capacity at 4 grenades which according to you leads to 20 seconds of bottleneck waiting at a door. Why is that a problem now on the second page? It is evident through your posts, "annoying" and "stupid" that your goal is to take hit back at O-PGLers for some self-relief. You didn't really think something so simple through.

 

52 minutes ago, JunoSuzuki said:

Also, sometimes i might not use strict stats to say how i want OPGL to be and kinda use my own words for that. I can tell where i see it, how certain mechanics could be and stuff because throwing around with numbers that much even without knowing exactly how it would change stuff is a bit unsatisfying. I like to actually see results first tbh and change numbers til i get what i want to see.

 

So ye, i really appreciate you taking the time. If we agree or disagree but it's interesting to exchange opinions with someone that thinks otherwise.

You don't have to get it right 100% by the 2nd-decimal-point but you should at least be able to tell something. Those who can provide numbers and stat-suggestions will have the highest chances of being heard (which is still not very high knowing how things work here). The best you can ever get without having the courage to deal with numbers is a random public playtest. We had many of those before and they were always a mess. Please, no more.

 

This is beyond agreeing and disagreeing on 1 particular thing. The big picture says that there are more than 1 state of weapon balance that CAN be consistent throughout. A "balance" has 2 arms. Nerfing O-PGL just for the sake of nerfing it without doing anything else makes things less consistent than what they currently are, especially when you don't even know where you want the weapon to be nor the general place of weapons in APB as a whole.

[JunoSuzuki 99]

On 2/19/2021 at 10:03 PM, LilyRain said:

More like it is quite a frequently raged-on topic.

 

What was the tangible conclusion/proof from all of those topics and 'discussions' that deemed O-PGL unfair? If those complaints didn't "come out of nowhere", you surely can put those on the table as you yourself requested, rather than just avoid it in such manner... You said you were "annoyed by one-word or one-line posts and wanna see a real discussion about it because there's definitely the need of talking about it". Yet there is no tangible discussion here.

 

The thread opener was nothing but a dot ".", and your opener was:

- find what I believe in outside this thread

- I asked people

- I saw people play it well

1st: Yes why not? Eventhough this is just a "remove X" title and a dot opener post why not encourage people to actually talk about stuff?

2nd: Of course i use information i gathered from outside of this thread. I mean why not?

On 2/19/2021 at 10:03 PM, LilyRain said:

 

The same can be said about a lot of weapons. Where is the specific discussion/evidence that specifically calls for removing, nerfing or overhauling O-PGL?

There's plenty, just not ONLY in thread form but there's forum threads about it and people sure discuss that topic.

On 2/19/2021 at 10:03 PM, LilyRain said:

 

 

Except the only difference being the way they travel. You either throw/launch a grenade or send a rocket. Ultimately explosives are defined by the end-result, that is an explosion that deals health and hard damage over radii defined by stats.

 

You said it yourself, O-PGL's blast radius isn't as good as EOL's. More so taking an extra mile to say "doesnt allow anything tbh". That is an indirect-confession that O-PGL is not a problem. 

Wait a second ... that's not what i said. I said OPGL doesnt really give you a chance to run away because being in a building means you can try but the space is very very limited and you can easily be cut off or just can't make it outside of its large blast radius. That's not a confession you was just reading it wrong.

On 2/19/2021 at 10:03 PM, LilyRain said:

You imply that you are okay with Rocket Launchers as they are, which is highly-interesting because OSMAW can also kill in 1 explosion just the O-PGL and can deliver that kill substantially faster.. Quite the contradiction there...

OSMAW is very slow in mobility can has a max capacity of 4 rockets plus each of them cost 100$. It has a windup timer and you really have to think how you use that to your advantage. It kills less people that OPGL could.

On 2/19/2021 at 10:03 PM, LilyRain said:

 

Again, you are overstressing on your annoyance and calling teammates stupid because they're not playing the game the way YOU want it to be played, quite unhealthy. Perhaps THEY want to O-PGL, why should YOUR preference be pushed forward when you are presenting zero-evidence of O-PGL being unfair? Or better yet a workable new state?

It's not about me that wants to play the game how i want it is about what this map was designed for and i can turn that one the other way around. If someone can't play this weapon and do a lot of teamkills then it shouldnt be a go for them to keep on playing like that on the cost of other players. They're not the only people that want to play Asylum and if they handle a weapon with the potential of teamkilling pretty often and they can't use it but do it anyway then it's them being egoistic. Happens to me for example so i don't touch this weapon in there. Why should i piss of people if i know i can't use it properly?

On 2/19/2021 at 10:03 PM, LilyRain said:

 

I say this because you're telling me you can deal with people cooking grenades, but you can't deal with friendly-O-PGLs that you are always aware of their exact position and distance in meters, via their names that appear above their heads THROUGH walls... That's incredibly hard to believe..

Believe it or not but i can not predict where they are shooting their nades now because they definitely won't tell me that. Asylum is too fast for that. I constanly have to be aware of enemy players too so i can not focus on one team mate and figure out where he is and where he might shoot his OPGL when i have 20 opponents that can possibly be inside of a room or might peek around the corner.

On 2/19/2021 at 10:03 PM, LilyRain said:

More interestingly, you imply that you want gameplay to be faster because your current play-solution is to just wait it out.. On its own this implies wanting a fuse-timer buff. I already asked if you were sure that you wanted an O-PGL buff and that is yet to be answered.

I said the gameplay of Asylum is fast not that i want it to be faster. It's a map made for CQC with certain areas in the outside where long range weapons can pick up people from the other side of the building. It implies nothing tbh. I also dont want an OPGL buff i just want to have it less spammable.

On 2/19/2021 at 10:03 PM, LilyRain said:

 

Your plan in this very thread states nerfing "ammo capacity from from 4 (12) to 4 (8)".. You clearly proposed keeping the magazine capacity at 4 grenades which according to you leads to 20 seconds of bottleneck waiting at a door. Why is that a problem now on the second page? It is evident through your posts, "annoying" and "stupid" that your goal is to take hit back at O-PGLers for some self-relief. You didn't really think something so simple through.

Told you why am i using these words. I just dont wanna type it over and over again and my goal is not to take a hit back at OPGL users. Having a windup timer and making it work like HoHoHo PGL that you can fire automatic still allows you to spam this weapon but everytime you stop shooting you have to windup again and might give you time to think if you really wanna shoot that nade now or not.

On 2/19/2021 at 10:03 PM, LilyRain said:

You don't have to get it right 100% by the 2nd-decimal-point but you should at least be able to tell something. Those who can provide numbers and stat-suggestions will have the highest chances of being heard (which is still not very high knowing how things work here). The best you can ever get without having the courage to deal with numbers is a random public playtest. We had many of those before and they were always a mess. Please, no more.

Not everyone can juggle with numbers that well and i expect that i might be wrong if i do so because, as i said, i need to see my results first. Changing one number in weapon balancing can have a big impact. Sometimes too big. Sometimes it isnt doing anything at all. Public playtest just went wrong because everyone kept playing on the normal districts so LO had to decide on the little numbers they get.

On 2/19/2021 at 10:03 PM, LilyRain said:

This is beyond agreeing and disagreeing on 1 particular thing. The big picture says that there are more than 1 state of weapon balance that CAN be consistent throughout. A "balance" has 2 arms. Nerfing O-PGL just for the sake of nerfing it without doing anything else makes things less consistent than what they currently are, especially when you don't even know where you want the weapon to be nor the general place of weapons in APB as a whole.

I dont want to ruin OPGL. It's a frustration factor for a lot of people and if you have so many complain about something you can't just disregard it by saying they're just mad and annoyed. So many people being annoyed says something that's sure. You might think otherwise and that's up to you and alright. I just see it different.

[LilyRain 671]

16 minutes ago, JunoSuzuki said:

1st: Yes why not? Eventhough this is just a "remove X" title and a dot opener post why not encourage people to actually talk about stuff?

2nd: Of course i use information i gathered from outside of this thread. I mean why not?

- That's exactly the problem.. You requested a discussion that you keep running away from with every single post.

- Again, you're not putting the information in order for it to be discussed.

 

17 minutes ago, JunoSuzuki said:

There's plenty, just not ONLY in thread form but there's forum threads about it and people sure discuss that topic.

Again, you're not putting the information to engage a discussion... You should know by now why you never partake in meaningful, fruitful discussions.

 

18 minutes ago, JunoSuzuki said:

Wait a second ... that's not what i said. I said OPGL doesnt really give you a chance to run away because being in a building means you can try but the space is very very limited and you can easily be cut off or just can't make it outside of its large blast radius. That's not a confession you was just reading it wrong.

OSMAW is very slow in mobility can has a max capacity of 4 rockets plus each of them cost 100$. It has a windup timer and you really have to think how you use that to your advantage. It kills less people that OPGL could.

These are plain wrong, I am sorry...

 

You made the mistake of not paying attention and also being ignorant enough to not know the weapons, therefore you think what you are writing is correct..

 

- O-PGL can kill after 5 seconds from the instant it can be heard, with a max-health-damage blast radius of 200cm (if not, following it up leans on a blast radius of up to 750cm).

- On the other hand, OSMAW's windup time is 1.75 seconds & the rocket travels at 47.5 m/s. So in Asylum, it can kill in sub 3 seconds from the instant it can be heard (if not, following it up leans on a STAGGERING blast radius of up to 1000cm).

 

It is very apparent which of the two weapons is easier to get kills with. 

 

27 minutes ago, JunoSuzuki said:

It's not about me that wants to play the game how i want it is about what this map was designed for and i can turn that one the other way around. If someone can't play this weapon and do a lot of teamkills then it shouldnt be a go for them to keep on playing like that on the cost of other players. They're not the only people that want to play Asylum and if they handle a weapon with the potential of teamkilling pretty often and they can't use it but do it anyway then it's them being egoistic. Happens to me for example so i don't touch this weapon in there. Why should i piss of people if i know i can't use it properly?

Believe it or not but i can not predict where they are shooting their nades now because they definitely won't tell me that. Asylum is too fast for that. I constanly have to be aware of enemy players too so i can not focus on one team mate and figure out where he is and where he might shoot his OPGL when i have 20 opponents that can possibly be inside of a room or might peek around the corner.

I said the gameplay of Asylum is fast not that i want it to be faster. It's a map made for CQC with certain areas in the outside where long range weapons can pick up people from the other side of the building. It implies nothing tbh. I also dont want an OPGL buff i just want to have it less spammable.

 

- Yet again, one reply later you repeat the same mistake of going back and forth after I told you to stop contradicting yourself.. Like... why do you lie so much?! Which is the lie and which is the truth? How do you expect to extract a good discussion with this type of low, misguided ethics?

 

- And again, O-PGL and Spammable are two words that don't mix in the current state of the game. You should instead work on your speed because you seem to be just too slow.

 

- In a standard APB match, you'd be in a team of 4 against another... If you can't keep satisfactory track of ONE teammate that you can see in real-time, how would you keep track of 3 besides your opponents? Perhaps it is time to work on your situational awareness as a Gamer (and more than Gamer in general as 1 person is just too low of a number to be too much for a human).

 

- Fun fact: Teamkills happen in Asylum by all types of weapons, not just O-PGL. Perhaps we should disable all weapons and have Asylum be Blowtorch-only, hmm? Be more rational, please.

 

53 minutes ago, JunoSuzuki said:

Told you why am i using these words. I just dont wanna type it over and over again and my goal is not to take a hit back at OPGL users. Having a windup timer and making it work like HoHoHo PGL that you can fire automatic still allows you to spam this weapon but everytime you stop shooting you have to windup again and might give you time to think if you really wanna shoot that nade now or not.

Not everyone can juggle with numbers that well and i expect that i might be wrong if i do so because, as i said, i need to see my results first. Changing one number in weapon balancing can have a big impact. Sometimes too big. Sometimes it isnt doing anything at all. Public playtest just went wrong because everyone kept playing on the normal districts so LO had to decide on the little numbers they get.

Dear Lord, again with the "I just don't wanna type it over and over again", because you typed absolutely NOTHING of relevance.

 

AGAIN, because you do not read, having O-PGL function like HoHoHoPGL would get it banned from Mission Districts because the HoHoHoPGL you speak of was buffed prior and would make O-PGL too darn strong. Kindly stop pressing with that idea.

 

Fast forward to the future: Honestly you'd be the first to get annoyed by 4 O-PGL grenades around you in Asylum, because O-PGLers can literally ricochet them off walls.

 

Here is your list of suggestions to "rework" O-PGL which clearly shows keeping Magazine Capacity unchanged at 4 shells without a single additional word:

 

 

- As this is a "rework" of a weapon, I dare you to highlight anything in there that explains the Change in Ammo Capacity or remotely justifies why you are keeping that at a solid 8 down from 12. What makes that number the perfect choice? What was the methodology or reasoning to determine that and WHY would that be a factor in Asylum that happens to be infested with Vending Machines? What are you changing exactly that has meaning or does anything? This is why I concluded you were trying to hit back at O-PGL, because all you do is exaggerate on your annoyance of dying to a grenade in a PvP game... [inb4 I just don't wanna type it over and over again].

- I also challenge you to properly reply this time and actually say how reducing Ammo Capacity on O-PGL would mitigate the '20 seconds wait at a door' when you can't differentiate between Ammo Capacity and Magazine Capacity.

 

1 hour ago, JunoSuzuki said:

I dont want to ruin OPGL. It's a frustration factor for a lot of people and if you have so many complain about something you can't just disregard it by saying they're just mad and annoyed. So many people being annoyed says something that's sure. You might think otherwise and that's up to you and alright. I just see it different.

 

 

- The best course of action to not ruin something you don't fully understand, is to simply not touch it with a list of "reworks" that you neither have the courage nor ability to justify.

- Again, that poll you posted doesn't speak for everyone nor it has a staggering ratio. Drop it already

 

As harsh and trolly the phrase "Git Gud" is generally used, I now know why people keep saying it to you. Your grasp, knowledge and experience are simply not there yet.

 

If you have the time to spam the forums with "I am annoyed", "everyone is annoyed", "I just don't wanna type over and over again", and post complete misinformation due to yourself lacking of what is stated above AFTER being presented with the facts.... Do yourself a favor, actually step back.. revise yourself and understand why the forums exist, quit circle-jerking and git gud. Perhaps then you'd post remotely non-destructive "reworks" that aren't derived from pure annoyance of getting teamkilled in a PvP game.

 

[BlatMan 708]

Don't remove it, let us buy the OPGL permanently with Joker tickets.

 

[Amayii 398]

Keep the discussions civil, refrain from attacking other users.

 

If a civil discussion is not possible we will be forced to close the thread.

 

~@mayii

[Reprimand 98]

Anyway here's my two cents. 

 

The OGPL and OSMAW, and for that matter other explosive primaries should be removed from FC. 

 

There's several reasons for this:

 

You can't see the projectiles and there's no muzzle flash, making it impossible to learn your opponent's attack patterns or even make the attempt of dodging it. Like I suggested, the projectiles should be bright red. Doesn't make it harder to use, doesn't make it too easy to play against. 

 

The team kill potential is ridiculous. You get 2 grenades per life (or more if you're able to restock but the gesture of cooking and throwing a grenade is highly telegraphed. With an OGPL and OSMAW you often don't see it coming, except for the OSMAW beeping which is difficult to discern a location from. 

 

We're fighting in very enclosed but vast spaces, meaning that all a person needs to do is camp on a rooftop and hold down the LMB to wipe out several opponents. Unlike other maps (which are open air) you're not risking yourself as much as your teammates firing in a corridor or hallway. 

 

I do agree, explosive weapons should weigh the same as the LMG category, because having your own personal rocket launcher with the base run speed doesn't make for a fun experience, even head to head. 

 

Not to mention that firing them makes you less visible on the radar than say an assault rifle (even with a silencer which can be heard) by people nearby. You're firing less often but getting twice the reward as someone who has to intently aim at someone and run for cover. How is that fair?

 

Consider the sniper and how while you get a high reward, your fire rate is slow and your opponent instantly knows where you are. 

 

Are we really doing a CTP/CTF mode justice by letting people blow up whatever comes towards it? 

 

 

[R3ACT3M 489]

On 3/11/2021 at 1:09 PM, Reprimand said:

The team kill potential is ridiculous

If anything, this is the best reason to remove them.