Weapon balance sheet

[Reedee 0]

I suppose I'll toss my hat into the ring. Most of my suggestions seem to be miner buffs to distances.  I only did the weapons I feel comfortable with. I love playing around with the weapons in game.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HXUt2V8bbIPFEVccqTeYynVEOzzWkAvu_CX8dpH2UT4/edit?usp=sharing

 

I think its important to understand that there is no such thing as a perfect balance. Especially considering how many weapons and other variables come into play.

 

-Rede

[Frosi 722]

1 hour ago, Reedee said:

I suppose I'll toss my hat into the ring. Most of my suggestions seem to be miner buffs to distances.  I only did the weapons I feel comfortable with. I love playing around with the weapons in game.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HXUt2V8bbIPFEVccqTeYynVEOzzWkAvu_CX8dpH2UT4/edit?usp=sharing

 

I think its important to understand that there is no such thing as a perfect balance. Especially considering how many weapons and other variables come into play.

 

-Rede

You'll need to change the link to make it public, instructions for that are on the bottom of the instructions sheet in the document.

[Cr0 328]

It's a really nice idea!

Perhaps you'd receive more feedback in the end if it was open for feedback on for example one weapon category at a time instead of all weapons at once because many who don't spend as much time and energy on APB as the die hard APB'ers who hang around the game all the time, may pass on this I think.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Cr0
clarification

[claude 223]

8 hours ago, RespectThis said:

Yes I do think the scout should be changed back. This is where my biggest problem with your ideology lies. You want to nerf the HVR so much that the DMR becomes the next one. Then you want to nerf that. That is just killing the game because you are just killing one gun after another. That doesn't actually do anything positive or healthy for the game. There will always been a meta weapon. Which is why when the Holy Trinity was a thing the game was at its best. Because there were always 3/4 (since oca/pmg) weapons you could always use without problem. Then all the other ones were still good but not the meta.

I really meant that I'd only want the DMR nerfed if people would want it nerfed. I dont really care if it gets nerfed. I personally use it all the time, but mostly because it's super strong in repo racers or mahjong money, makes the mission unplayable. So, depending on how LO chooses to balance missions and/or waterfront in the future, if people wanted to gut the DMR, I'd understand why they'd want to nerf a weapon that kills in about .75 seconds at nearly max range, while being able to crit cars in a few shots. I've always thought the HVR was OP and annoying to play against, before the QS nerf and after the QS nerf, I think weapons that allow you to shoot a single shot that deals a shit ton of damage, with the tradeoff of having a bolt or pump timer, are inherently powerful on defense because you can just hide while waiting for the next shot to become available. This is one of the reasons why people hate the JG right now, because with how pellet damage works at the moment, you only need to graze someone with your first shot, just to guarantee a kill on the second shot... and while waiting for the second shot to be available, you can just hide.  So, to boil it down, your damage output is INSANELY HIGH with a weapon that is effective at pretty much all ranges, and all you need to do is hit one shot, and they're practically dead. It's easy to say "just get in a car and rush them" but gl trying to "car rush" someone sitting on top of one of the dozen insanely OP spots with like 2 or 3 exposed entrances, making it extremely difficult to even peak them from below to throw a couple of nades or so.

[Reedee 0]

9 hours ago, Frosi said:

You'll need to change the link to make it public, instructions for that are on the bottom of the instructions sheet in the document.

Opps, my bad, this should be a fixed link:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HXUt2V8bbIPFEVccqTeYynVEOzzWkAvu_CX8dpH2UT4/edit?usp=sharing

[RespectThis 121]

11 hours ago, claude said:

I really meant that I'd only want the DMR nerfed if people would want it nerfed. I dont really care if it gets nerfed. I personally use it all the time, but mostly because it's super strong in repo racers or mahjong money, makes the mission unplayable. So, depending on how LO chooses to balance missions and/or waterfront in the future, if people wanted to gut the DMR, I'd understand why they'd want to nerf a weapon that kills in about .75 seconds at nearly max range, while being able to crit cars in a few shots.

This is the problem though. It will just cause the go down the line nerfing route. HVR isn't worth using we'll switch to the DMR. Well that sniper is to "OP" now lets nerf that and move to the Scout. Now that's broken...etc. Not to mention the DMR shouldn't be touched as its been the same it has for years with no issue.

11 hours ago, claude said:

I've always thought the HVR was OP and annoying to play against, before the QS nerf and after the QS nerf, I think weapons that allow you to shoot a single shot that deals a shit ton of damage, with the tradeoff of having a bolt or pump timer, are inherently powerful on defense because you can just hide while waiting for the next shot to become available. This is one of the reasons why people hate the JG right now, because with how pellet damage works at the moment, you only need to graze someone with your first shot, just to guarantee a kill on the second shot... and while waiting for the second shot to be available, you can just hide.  So, to boil it down, your damage output is INSANELY HIGH with a weapon that is effective at pretty much all ranges, and all you need to do is hit one shot, and they're practically dead.

I don't think high damage single shot weapons are an issue. If snipers and shotguns didn't deal large sums of damage they'd be worthless. They do have their downsides. HVR is strong at long range and CAN be good in cqc. But its not better than a shotgun or a smg in that range. Just like the Ntec is good in cqc but it doesn't outclass an smg. While the HVR does deal high amounts of damage even at close range you can still bait out shots from opposition by faking rounding a corner. Most weapons can be good at multiple ranges but their effectiveness will greatly vary.

11 hours ago, claude said:

It's easy to say "just get in a car and rush them" but gl trying to "car rush" someone sitting on top of one of the dozen insanely OP spots with like 2 or 3 exposed entrances, making it extremely difficult to even peak them from below to throw a couple of nades or so.

Block the entrance with a car, throw nades to for them to move, use a dmr at an extreme range, etc. There are plenty of ways to counter out these "op spots".

[CIoud 26]

⠀

Edited September 6, 2023 by who

[MACKxBOLAN 431]

Any adjustment of a weapon, by the 'Nerfs' Whom have little if any knowledge of Fire arms is Wrong!

You people Ruined shotguns in general, n now you've ruined all of the sub guns, (most are oca reskins) and in doing so eliminated yet one more joker job.

 Shotguns:  Now your gonna try to tell me, Your new 20gauge Slug gun, has less hard damage with a Slug, that a jg 12 gauge.

Heres another example. Your Ogre is so despicable id rather beat the enemy with it than fire it, the spread is so wide, wider than a claymore pattern, n no real guns have trigger delays,,that's stupid.

 

 

[vsb 6171]

11 minutes ago, MACKxBOLAN said:

Any adjustment of a weapon, by the 'Nerfs' Whom have little if any knowledge of Fire arms is Wrong!

You people Ruined shotguns in general, n now you've ruined all of the sub guns, (most are oca reskins) and in doing so eliminated yet one more joker job.

 Shotguns:  Now your gonna try to tell me, Your new 20gauge Slug gun, has less hard damage with a Slug, that a jg 12 gauge.

Heres another example. Your Ogre is so despicable id rather beat the enemy with it than fire it, the spread is so wide, wider than a claymore pattern, n no real guns have trigger delays,,that's stupid.

complaining about firearm realism in a game where people inject kevlar under their skin like breast implants seems a little shortsighted

[Todesklinge 143]

It is important to nerf ALL Assault Rifles, to make other weapons more balanced.

The Ntec5 is perfect for short, mid and long range.

Why also use a shotgun, or a smg or sniper if the Ntec5 can do the same on every range?

Yeah, ok shotgun if you camp on the edge... wow.

 

This all weapon sheets are wrong, because the general gameplay makes weapons good or bad, not at first point the damage or weapon itself!

But some weapons perform better then other, thats right.

Because using weapons have no downsides (i dont meaning damage/accuracy/range!!!).

 

In the game there is only one important damage system (health) for weapons. The colission system for the projectiles is outdated...

 

Just in/decrease the damage stats, this will change nothing. Because the general gameplay rules the way.

But actually Assault Rifles are out of controll.

[claude 223]

11 hours ago, RespectThis said:

This is the problem though. It will just cause the go down the line nerfing route. HVR isn't worth using we'll switch to the DMR. Well that sniper is to "OP" now lets nerf that and move to the Scout. Now that's broken...etc. Not to mention the DMR shouldn't be touched as its been the same it has for years with no issue.

couldn't you apply this concern to literally any instance of nerfing/buffing? idk if "they might nerf more things!" would be good enough grounds to prevent weapon balancing for the rest of APBs lifespan.

 

what would happen after the scout nerf? "man i dont like the nissrb it shoots too far. nerf. wow the obeya rifle does too much damage and can shoot too far. nerf. ar97 is just a fully auto obeya rifle, and we already nerfed that, so lets just nerf this one too. ah man, wtf bro, why can u minttk people with the alig at like 70 meters? nerf."

 

you wouldn't make this argument for the old nano or the old yukon, would you? or the old RFP9? troublemaker? hween patch ntec?

 

11 hours ago, RespectThis said:

I don't think high damage single shot weapons are an issue. If snipers and shotguns didn't deal large sums of damage they'd be worthless. They do have their downsides. HVR is strong at long range and CAN be good in cqc. But its not better than a shotgun or a smg in that range. Just like the Ntec is good in cqc but it doesn't outclass an smg. While the HVR does deal high amounts of damage even at close range you can still bait out shots from opposition by faking rounding a corner. Most weapons can be good at multiple ranges but their effectiveness will greatly vary.

you're missing my point. HVR does insane damage at any range, but it's weaknesses are bolt-timer and vulnerability in CQC. These negatives are almost 100% negated when you're playing on a map (waterfront) with dozens of spots that require players on offense to push ladder chokes, single-ramp entrances, or extremely open areas which they could be sniped from, anywhere.  financial has these spots/areas, but they're considerably easier to push than most of the spots on waterfront (with the exception of 1 or 2 areas.)

 

im completely fine with the CSG as it is right now, and it deals a large amount of damage... but it's not like the JG where you can miss a ton of pellets but still deal a ton of damage, making it super braindead in CQC encounters because you're almost GUARANTEED a two shot kill with the JG. With the CSG, you don't have as much room for fuckups, so the chances of you having to 3 or 4 shot someone are significantly higher than the JG.

 

11 hours ago, RespectThis said:

Block the entrance with a car, throw nades to for them to move, use a dmr at an extreme range, etc. There are plenty of ways to counter out these "op spots".

GL trying to DMR and/or nade someone you have absolutely no line of sight of, while they're able to see where you are or where the nades you're throwing are going, because it's a third person shooter.

"just block the entrance" is a good meme, dont think it really solves the underlying issue though, especially because if defenders beat attackers to the next objective (which they more than likely will, attackers will be on last stage objective as new stage transitions, and defenders will more than likely be respawning or driving away from the last stage...) "blocking the entrance" wont do you any good.

so, what does that leave you with? the volcano? do we really want the only way to hard counter high ground hvrs to be a weapon locked behind JT, pretty much making the only reasonable solution be paywalled? hell, you could just dodge the volcano too, honestly.

 

even if you land a decent nade on them, you cant use ammo crates to spam nade anymore, so both nades would have to hit... which again, would be difficult to do when you can't see the person your nading, but they can see you, and the nades you're throwing up at them.

Edited February 5, 2021 by claude

[vsb 6171]

2 minutes ago, claude said:

These negatives are almost 100% negated when you're playing on a map (waterfront) with dozens of spots that require players on offense to push ladder chokes, single-ramp entrances, or extremely open areas which they could be sniped from, anywhere.  financial has these spots/areas, but they're considerably easier to push than most of the spots on waterfront (with the exception of 1 or 2 areas.)

it sounds more like this is a map problem, and yeah it doesn't seem like we'll be getting significant map changes anytime soon, but i still dont like the idea of nerfing a gun as a bandaid solution for a bigger problem

 

especially when its not just the hvr since basically every long range weapon gets a huge indirect boost when used in waterfront, removing the biggest headache doesnt mean much when theres 6 other ones right behind it because the core issue isnt being solved

[CookiePuss 5378]

I wonder if maybe we should stick to posting of docs and move on from the back and forth arguments?

[RespectThis 121]

4 hours ago, claude said:

couldn't you apply this concern to literally any instance of nerfing/buffing? idk if "they might nerf more things!" would be good enough grounds to prevent weapon balancing for the rest of APBs lifespan.... -snip-

I'm not saying "they might nerf more things" is good enough to prevent weapon balancing. I'm saying that the game is only hurt by constant nerfing. NO ONE likes nerf meta. It feels like trash. Again the Holy Trinity meta was when this game was in its best state. You had your core weapons (which are all free to play).  While the other guns still felt good, useable, and could compete like the Obeya, Obir, and DMR for example. If said weapons start to become out of control then you can adjust (not nerf into the floor) accordingly. I also never thought the Ntec was ever an issue and the only nerf it needed was the heavy barrel one as it allowed for increased accuracy with no downsides.

Quote

you're missing my point. HVR does insane damage at any range, but it's weaknesses are bolt-timer and vulnerability in CQC. These negatives are almost 100% negated when you're playing on a map (waterfront) with dozens of spots that require players on offense to push ladder chokes, single-ramp entrances, or extremely open areas which they could be sniped from, anywhere.  financial has these spots/areas, but they're considerably easier to push than most of the spots on waterfront (with the exception of 1 or 2 areas.)

I did state the HVR does high damage regardless of the range. Again your issues with the HVR keep coming back to map related things and you can't balance it around that. 

Quote

 

GL trying to DMR and/or nade someone you have absolutely no line of sight of, while they're able to see where you are or where the nades you're throwing are going, because it's a third person shooter..... -snip-

I've done it thousands of times. I can think of all of the annoying spots in waterfront where people love to snipe from. They are indeed annoying but they are by no means impossible to take. Blocking the entrance/objective does help you as it provides cover from said snipers. You need to re-evaluate your approach if you're having to rely on Volcano and nades to try and push these players. While waterfront has annoying spots they almost always have ways of playing around them.

4 hours ago, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA said:

it sounds more like this is a map problem, and yeah it doesn't seem like we'll be getting significant map changes anytime soon, but i still dont like the idea of nerfing a gun as a bandaid solution for a bigger problem

 

especially when its not just the hvr since basically every long range weapon gets a huge indirect boost when used in waterfront, removing the biggest headache doesnt mean much when theres 6 other ones right behind it because the core issue isnt being solved

Thank you.

Edited February 5, 2021 by RespectThis

[Matsutake 16]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1m7H7Gpt8UKx25KMQGnO4pW3tyaftp-WT0Qo5SZ2c_qQ/edit?usp=sharing

Note: There's a Rifle, SMG, and some ARs I've either not owned or used enough. As such, I have not provided a Rating or Suggestion.

[Todesklinge 143]

Why you are waste of time make Unbalanced-Weapon sheets?

 

Wait until Engine Upgrade and its reworked combat system. And then you can make better sheets.

[Frosi 722]

1 hour ago, Todesklinge said:

Why you are waste of time make Unbalanced-Weapon sheets?

 

Wait until Engine Upgrade and its reworked combat system. And then you can make better sheets.

Because the combat system itself is likely never going to be overhauled as its considered one of the best if not the best in a third person shooter. This includes movement, ttk, fluidity and so on.