Tigrix

Can you follow head from tails in your own agenda? honestly.. I've argued that you're trying to undermine the problem of cheating in APB. You've argued that "people as me" are trying to "exaggerate the problem" Result: I produced a bunch of statistics and material on the case of cheating in online games. I produced a website actively used to discuss cheats for APB, as actively as everyday with latest aimbot thread having 11 replies and 510+ views in 12hours. There has been others than me quoting that there is a really deep rooted issue with cheaters in APB and their mentality. You have a forum in which you've confirmed yourself there's been no less than eight different threads concerning cheaters in 3 days, from different players. Yet you continue to argue saying it's exaggerated. No no, I didn't "finally get it" - I just took the stance of treating you with modest respect by using actual real world data and linking you facts, as opposed to dismissing your negligent opinion under bias of some alleged encounter you've had with a player in the past. I've had many of those, it doesn't color the facts or distort what I presented you. There is still a daily active cheater forum, right now discussing the latest aimbot and AHK scripts for APB and offering them up for download, with as recent as 11 replies and 510+ views in 12 hours, those are not facts colored by who presents it to you.... It's simply you choosing to be ignorant, because you personally have a beef or bias against the person presenting it. Interesting, to me it seems you definitely took a big leap, going from "it's exaggeration and delusional" to>>> : Specially the bold part:) I'd say that's a giant step forward, even if you're backpedaling slightly at the end with the "small sample size" - There are multiple reports and studies made, so you don't have to settle for this alone. That's mighty kind of you. See, things are so much easier when you from the start simply say what you believe, even when it's stupid and negligent of the facts in-front of you:) But it's better than using broad strokes and trying to present your argument as you helping APB by: "i feel a duty to step in and say these people are just exaggerating, upvoting eachother and being delusional about any cheater pandemic". Your reaction to most of what I presented, honestly seem to just boil down to the simple: I'm an elitist veteran god of APB that have usually np with cheaters in my 4man group and you're a sh***er that hackusated me, so everything you say is irrelevant and f**k facts and your source links debating the matter of cheater mentality and comparing studies with current situation of APB. Anything you say Tigrix, I'll invalidate based on my personal opinion of you! So much easier when we know where we stand:)

Exactly this. I can't stress this enough. If you know someone who has been on that inside or experienced it 1st hand, then you really are repulsed at whats going on and what a friggin' insane culture of "it's okay because my friends do it too" it has become in our small game. Oh, I do believe the quarrel of this back and forth, was you stating that people as me and the topic OP are delusional:) Which is a bit more confronting than just saying you're disagreeing with an estimate. Which led to me presenting you a lot of facts and sourced material on the area of cheating in online games and then comparing the situation of APB and what we can find surrounding APB and cheaters, by merely doing simple google searches and investigating on our own, while adding the experience we're having and the so called "number of posts" regarding the issues of cheating. But I'm glad that eventually it seems you've more or less come closer to agreeing on the numbers i'm arguing, rather than just touting that everything is an exaggeration by delusional players and that MY personal credibility to YOU, means I can't discuss this topic, which is what you heavily imply. On top of that, I can only quote GoaBea, to again say; in APB, we really do have a disgusting problem with some extremely resilient players that have managed to make it a style that their friends and their circle fully accept and embrace even. I think that feeling is something a lot of players are having and that's why you see 8 topics about cheating in 3 days I'd bet you. Not so much cause "delusions".

So you got no issue with people making up their own minds as long as they do it in private, okay, well then whats the problem? A whisper is private right? a clip of gameplay is a clip of gameplay, it's not accusation unless text or title provides an accusation, right? So you agree people should be free to make up their own minds from what they see, right? and as for in-game, there's /w and ignore function right? Ah, so here we're getting closer to the real issue aren't we... I think I got a good idea why you're so defensive about it.... personally, nobody calling me cheater affects me or my game-play or feelings. I think you're affected by it, because you're such an elitist that you actually believe only a certain small % of veterans are able to justifiably feel that they're opposed vs a cheater. Same goes for your entire attitude about topics discussing the cheating problem in APB. You respond these topics as if a bunch of players are "all wrong" and "blowing things out of propotion", yet the only person here not presenting any facts to backup your claims are you. I've explained why APB is in a much worse state in regards to cheating, than your average F2P online game and both myself and others have linked and commented towards REAL sources you can freely read. I've given you real world examples of cheater forums discussing APB, EAC, scripts, aimbotting and so on. You're easily able to visit and get a feel for how many are active those places. (and those are just the open ones that guests can browse) It doesn't then take a brain surgeon, to understand why such a tiny community as we now have, that barely can fill 1 gold-threat district (aka silver district), why most players agree that the experience is that there's a prevalent number of cheaters in APB, regardless how much you try to downplay it and say people are "exaggerating". To my knowledge I've not accused anyone in public, aside from times where they themselves speak out in public to me first. If there's been an instance where that wasn't the case, then that's my bad, we're all just human. I say again, I believe that anyone who feels they're vs a cheater, should keep it in private /w and on that notice, ignore does the trick if someone feels threatened/annoyed. And as for public clips/video, I feel it should be totally allowed, as long as there are no titles or incriminating text. Everyone should be free to make up their own minds from what they see. If you didn't skim it, then idk how you didn't notice it was 4 numbers added up that made the 37%. You didn't quote Kitty, you quoted me.. it's literally still up there. screencap Indeed, 18% would be a hell of a scary number. If you got 100 players actively doing missions daily in APB and potential 18 of them are cheaters. However that's not a number I used or referenced, I was referring to the "hard-core" cheaters and saying THEY have a far far larger number here in APB. I'm glad you're slowly coming around to my numbers though, as opposed to just stating that everyone is wrong and are blowing things out of proportion. I'm keeping my estimates down to things you can reference and look up. Hell, it's not hard to visit that "other forum" and do as the OP did and which was the reason for this thread in the first place! I think it's great when the population are seeking out answers of their own and are going out to justify their feelings with real world data. Wish more people would do as the OP. I think the numbers won't change for the better, until the community itself starts being a lot more vigilant at self-policing their own clans. EAC alone can't fix a problem that is this deeply rooted as it is in APB and that's where the studies and science came in, to show how a small problem can spin out of control and what the tell-tale signs are and that indeed cheaters do tend to sway their legit friends into cheating as well. It's funny because you speak as if the people using cheat, don't have access to exactly the same things as those you mention as a legit player. Again, I think you're just feeling very elitist and "on another level" and you're trying to justify that everyone should feel as you do. Not everyone plays in 4man veteran premades. Not everyone can out-ttk aimbotters at close range etc (hit every single bullet to min-ttk). Cheaters got access to grenades too and in APB, they sure as hell often also play in groups of likewise buddies:) Hell, in APB it's a well known phenomena to speak of entire "cheater clans" that are blatantly bypassing whatever is current anti-cheat and not even scared to brag of it. So far, I've linked you multiple articles and back-sourced you to the original research, to explain the situation of APB and why it's worse than your average F2P game. I've linked and quoted text and images taken from real world examples from active cheater forums and real world studies and the only thing "kindergarten" about anything here, is that I've explained these terms to you at such level that it's only now interesting that you continue to disagree and defend your position. Do you agree that if you have a playerbase of roughly 400 online players, out of which barely you fill 1, sometimes 1 and a half gold threat district. That's 80 players in a district. Can we assume most cheaters will be gold threat, considering how easily that is obtained yes? If we follow even the most conservative thinking and link it up with the situation of APB, then it's really easy to understand why there are so many topics regarding cheats, don't you think? Idk why you came to this topic from an OP being repulsed at this APB subculture, to argue and tell people that they're exaggerating and blowing things out of proportion. And yes, it is a subculture, exactly for the reasons as stated in the research and studies. Cheaters tend to breed cheaters among their friends.

Thanks It does change the fact CookiePuss. Firstly, you're supporting MY point lol, since general studies in online gaming say its 2-3% that are hard-core cheaters. But I say that in APB that number is way way higher, so well you're already doubling my number (5-6%) and that is just a study from 2011! (do you think cheating in general has expanded over the years cookiepuss?) All indications and studies/research on the matter, you can read! click the source.... and then find likewise material from later years aka 2017-2018 and see the progression in that downwards spiral. Now if you add APB into the frames of what these studies show, both the old and the new ones.... Then you'll understand why we're in the situation we're in now.. and it's NOT just content drought or "tiggs fault!"... ( I quoted an imo very relevant short quote from the first study upper, about friends and cheaters and the impact it has ). And that is what i'm arguing here, versus anyone claiming that the "number of posts about cheating issues means we're drawing a picture of APB that isn't true". No it means it's a big issue on the minds of the few active players left. Well, i'm glad you don't deny that, it would be kinda stupid if you did. May they R.I.P.

LOL! it's funny because it's true Matt is reachable, which is good for a "face" of a company. While I do think it would be cool to simply see their offices and their work routines etc, just from a personal curious standpoint, I think it won't do much to re-assure anyone anything and so it should only happen if people at the company are really up for it and wanna meet put their faces out there.

Dude... :d you changed the quote tsk tsk. ( University of South Florida in Tampa study a social network of about 12 million gamers on the Steam Community ) A network,.... Also, as I wrote this was from an older article, 2011 which was funny in this case because it was co-answered by the original APB developers, RTW. In 2011/2012 steam had about 40 million registered users according to steam reports. source

So you care about MY credibility? so we're back to the start, full circle and I must repeat: Each person can make up their own mind, whether or not they think a clip or an "accusation" is true or false. I've been accused many times, it doesn't diminish my experience and the accusers credibility is none of my concern at all, so idk how you made yourself so concerned with what is my credibility if I think you're a cheater? Why are you scared of people speaking their mind that you feel the general rule should be to suppress it? Do you get a lot of accusations? I think as long as people can retain to whisper and not spam accusations "public" and as long as people are free to use /ignore vs anyone whispering... we have the tools to deal with people we disagree with, correct? regardless what YOU think of someone else's credibility. I know for certain that when people have harassed me, the common response is: "put the user on ignore". Again, you're speaking for a group, yet I see only you? and then you call ME presumptuous ? lol:) I think you're frustrated that a lot more talk is happening about this problem and that the community is so small, that either you're part of the concerned groups of people wanting to address how openly this subculture is operating nowadays, or you're someone closing your eyes and saying "there's no problem, you're all blowing it out of proportions". No you're wrong and I see you've only skimmed a few lines of the source and misunderstood them, so let me fix it for you; I said 2-3% are hardcore cheaters. The 37% referenced number from forbes, is condensed number by putting together multiple categories from the survey. The category I referenced and in our example care about, are the hardcore cheaters that always cheat in any game and regardless bans and simply can't play games legit, aka the 2-3%. Here's what you misunderstood: If you add up those numbers from the different answer categories that all deal with "always, often, sometimes, rarely", that's where your 37% came from: But I'm glad you point out that "40%" number though (37%) it really goes to show a growing problem in the industry as a whole. You should also be concerned with some of the other findings in these reports, for example that 60% of online gamers say that they've had their experiences in games ruined by cheaters. Now imagine APB. As for a small sample size? this is not the only report on this matter, feel free, there are many others (some was posted on OT forums). I'm glad you can finally agree that cheaters are less likely to lose interest than "non-cheaters" since you dislike the term normal, for non-cheaters, which is what i'd consider a normal person/player:) What exactly has been blown out of proportion? The numbers are there to look at, the material is there to look at, the "other forums" are easily found via google and people can quickly make their own impressions about number of active cheaters in APB. This is what the OP was discussing, is it not? He came across such "site" and got repulsed by how openly these individuals spread their cancer and discuss anti-cheat and scripts and bypassing/cheating and yada yada. -------------------- Just for the heck of it, here's an old source, it's fun (sad really) because it was co-answered by developers from the old APB OG title. source: cheating-spreads-like-infections-in-online-games " The trouble, of course, is that cheats poison the experience for legitimate players. The temptation is then for all players to cheat which leads to an uncontrolled escalation of illegal activities and the eventually destruction of the gaming environment. Jeremy Blackburn at the University of South Florida in Tampa study a social network of about 12 million gamers on the Steam Community of which some 700,000 are cheaters. What they find is interesting. First up, cheats stick together. The data shows that cheaters are much more likely to be friends with other cheaters. Cheating also appears to be infectious. The likelihood of a fair player becoming labelled as a cheater in future is directly correlated with this person’s number of friends who are cheaters. So if you know cheaters you are more likely to become one yourself. Cheating spreads like flu through this community. "

I was using my vids as an example. As for "in-game accusations" - personally, I only talk in /d if the player themselves start talking to me in /d or taunting in /d etc etc. I whisper a player if I feel I need to tell them something and how exactly does that affect your credibility? It doesn't. Ok, so they're based on your experience and thus unique to you and whatever your skill level is. While I'll stick to the fact that any half decent cheater should easily defeat a good veteran. Yes cheaters can lose interest eventually, especially if banned multiple times, but not "just as easily as any normal player". Firstly, it's not a normal thing to cheat, read some free online material on the matter. It is considered that 2-3% of online players are "hardcore cheaters" in gaming in general, aka they cheat in any game they can get away with it (source from forbes, but you can find lots of material online: forbes: cheating is becoming a big problem in online gaming.) Already from that point, they're not your average normal player with same motivation as any legit player. They belong to a toxic minority that go the extra mile in whatever they play, to ditch the rules and have an advantage over everyone else - and that effort alone is imo enough to safely say that they're not as likely or quickly to quit a game, as any other player. Nor as affected by cheaters, duhh. What's unrealistic and hyperbole in this thread? There's been nice discussion, nice references to "another forum" and it's not that hard to estimate that when you got /pop 388 online and barely 1 financial and sometimes 1 waterfront, then just alone the number of people you can SEE are active at these "other forums", gives you a rough estimate. And that is just ONE example, ONE forum, ONE site. Obviously there are paid alternatives and other sources than simply that site which has been used as example in this thread. Well, who'd have guessed:) we can agree on one thing.

I've also made videos that helped nailing some crews who believed they were untouchable:) Maybe you recall a video I made involving a certain FC clan leader plus 2 of his officers:) Funnily, they had been playing years untouched, even cracking jokes at being untouchable by FF and all of them 255'ers of course, yet the day after the video gained some traction on these forums, it turned out they weren't so untouchable and suddenly I had a lot of "anonymous" hate from certain a group. This ain't a brag, just a remark that it's silly to claim that if 1 person ever makes a false accusation, it means they cannot ever accuse anyone. It's not up to me personally to ban someone, it's up to the video evidence and/or the anti-cheat and/or the person at the other end reviewing my video. I don't claim to be perfect at spotting every cheater, but like the OP wrote and as several has followed up on - there are some tell-tale signs and they do stand out more easily in this small community APB has become (and judging from seeing the activity at the APB cheat forums, the cheaters aren't the ones quitting the game.... the casuals and average/regular players are the ones getting fed up and having quit). This leaves the game with an abundance of a certain plagued subculture, especially in relation to how small the overall population is. Sticking your head in the sand and claiming everyone is "just making a fuss and creating a problem that isn't there", isn't helping. If you truly believed you're in the right, then I assume your first priority would be to not bump and partake in the so called: "many abundant and disillusioned posts about cheaters". Ty for ig names, I was just curious how active you are as I honestly can't recall having seen you around in missions. I go under the same name as here.

You've played since 2011 and claim to be unaware of how significant of a subculture in cheating this small community has... No offense but I'm not sure you're the right one to tell anyone if they're delusional or not:) Out of curiosity, can I ask whats your ig name?

lots of video proof has been posted, it gets removed under rule of "name and shame", regardless how blatant a speedhacker or botter you meet and record=)

It's hard to enjoy APB when you know there are insiders, supposedly trusted veterans who sough out volunteer jobs and have no good intentions for the game. Imagine a situation, where a community has dwindled so far due to rampant cheating (AND lack of progress/content of course)... but imagine that some of the "most known" veteran names, are also veteran names on the upper cheat forum and even have scripts/configs posted in the same name they use in APB and on APB forums....and these are names that are "veterans and well liked by the community" ... oouff Idk how someone posting configs to remove fog in APB and have a massive advantage over other players....can also at the sametime be a well liked veteran and working as SPCTs and testing the things they'll later break to have an advantage over the rest of the mortal players trying to enjoy a game without any external skill modifiers. PS.... i mentioned no names, so don't delete this (ppl are welcome to PM me, if they want source links and names)

Exactly this I've been contemplating posting screenshots of conversations from a very popular APB cheat forum.... Just to show people how active that forum is... it's honestly, almost equally active as this one, and that says a lot with how few players APB has left, that the cheat forum is literally as active as the official one lol. Only reason I didn't post any conversations yet, is not wanting to promote that site... but i suppose i could take some time to remove all links and all identification parts of each image and just leave the conversations they're having.... I bet a LOT of folks would be shocked how there's so many people in this tiny community who has accounts on this forum and has been members for years and years (as many years as APB reloaded exist) Personally, I don't have an account there, probably since I never needed to download any files... any random person can google their site and can freely browse their forum and read their conversations (which is funny, since i assume thats an oversight in their security or they really just plainly don't care). It also shows why they are so tightly knit in this game and you can see a lot of things they got in common when talking about APB and their opinions on cheating lol... I honestly can't imagine what kinda' shitty and boring gaming experience you have provided for yourself, when you're a proud member of a 7y+ account, on a cheating forum for the game you play. Even shooting yourself in the foot, doesn't begin to cover how re*arded you must be really.

It's great they are adding the ARMAS-only guns to JT perma choices, in the long run, it means we can actually say this game isn't P2W - you CAN earn every gun with enough time investment. I hope they introduce a few more ways to earn JT or maybe bump up the JT's earned per daily missions. Some missions you only earn 5/10 tickets, which feels low to me. (edit) also a positive side effect of having perma JT weapons that are worth something, is that it makes accounts a little more precious when you sink hours into them. *cough* in other words, some players will be a little more deterred to break game rules and potentially lose their permanent JT weapons that they spent X amount of hours collecting:)

Well, I don't think they're competitors at all. Mission gameplay is still nr.1 and should hopefully soon get a well earned make-over with new contacts and stuff to earn.... (i hope) Riot and FC are two completely different game modes that compliment the game well, in each their own way imo. For me, FC is a place to chill and test whatever specific weapons/mods and/or braindead farming kills. Riot is fun because you're challenged using weapons and mods you wouldn't normally use/combine and somewhat plan your route while making decisions on the fly whether to engage to go for positioning etc. Also nice being able to spectate and hopefully something they can implement to more parts of the game.

Why don't gold threat players get immediately removed from bronze districts when they re-gain gold threat? Surely that's an easy fix, even if it's a bandaid, it's still a lot better than the current situation. Problem atm is, people de-threat and join bronze, then after a few games they re-gain gold, but they can still remain there entire day/night playing until they log off...

RIOT is way more fun than FC. And it'll be even better when they undo that shitty radar change in the final stage.

I like it, it's interesting and way more so than fightclubs. Missions are still the best.

@MattScott For RIOT, can you please : 1) announce players needed for the game to start (instead of "waiting for players..." --->>> "waiting for X number of players to start...") That way, players will hang out for the game to start, i see so many leaving when we only needed 1 or 2 more for the game mode to start, as most ppl don't know you need 8 or 16. I think that tiny change would help a lot to get more games started (today alone, i experienced many times people left when there was 7 players waiting...) 2) Showing enemies on the radar in last stage was a big mistake imo. It removed any tactics and just made the final stage: who has the best gun for the location the truck is planted, this dude or team can keep everyone else off as he can see them 80 meters out. There's no more sneaking, no being ninja or flanking... thats boring af, it doesn't suit the riot mode imo.

@MattScott imo it's the right choice, so stick with it. The people complaining that the RIOT skins will be buy-able later are imo just being fussy. The riot skins comes from a game mode and they don't require any skill to obtain, just time investment raising levels with a contact, so there's really no predicament in making them ARMAS available imho, in fact they're the perfect candidates for it, as opposed to unique skins won from GM hosted events. Running a F2P game requires that you monetize rewards, the community should know that by now. These RIOT skins are a perfect example of a good cosmetic-only reward, that players now can earn via F2P or buy if they wish to support the game.

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How many days does it take for LO to read 1k posts of the same complaints and react with a simple settings change patch? Stop allowing 4 man groups in RIOT, until you can offer an alternative choice for players that don't wanna run 4 man teams.

@MattScottWhy wasn't RIOT made for solo's firstly ? Is your game design philosophy around 4man teams in a game with barely 300 active players on? Your event is cool imo, but destroyed by the fact you refused to listen to all the feedback you received telling you to prevent 4man grouping in RIOT or create separate instances for people that wanna do clan wars. The gamemode should've imo been firstly for solo's or 2's (each person gets random team mate or the one they join with) Atm it's unplayable if you don't go as 4 you're at a massive disadvantage.

@Lixil@MattScott Any chance you guys reading' these? there's some nice suggestions! Getting tired of the same old 3 hairstyles... yeah 3, because the other 27 are literally just bald or troll stuff