Outlaw mc themed charecters

[kurbstomp88 25]

blm calls for the murder and attacks on white and police= hate grp

Antifa calls and carriers out attacks against conservatives and anyone not part of there echo chamber= hate grp

the confederate states had black soldiers and was not completely about slavery ( northern sates still has slaves after the war) the civil war was about the government over stepping there bounds and trying to dictate every part of southern states law yes slavery was a big part of it(also not all slaves were black irish slaves were actually more common treated worse and cheaper but they are white as white can be so nobody want to talk about them) 

[Onadan 14]

9 minutes ago, MartinPL said:

Black Lives Matter is a group united behind an expression of protest towards the mistreatment, abuse, hatred and violence aimed at the African-American populace of the United States.

Allegedly. Which doesn't mean much. Nazism was a group united behind an expression of protest towards the mistreatment, abuse, hated, and violence aimed at the German people...

10 minutes ago, MartinPL said:

Antifa is, as the name suggests, a form of opposition towards fascist groups ("anti-fascism"),

It's also been recognised as a domestic terrorist group for over a year now. Poor choice.

[kurbstomp88 25]

5 minutes ago, Onadan said:

And how would you go about determining non-virtual to virtual hatred?

Feel free to try and prove your unbased claim. However, you can't just claim things as if they were truth and expect me to accept them with no real effort on your part.

As we've established before, we're not talking about the movie. You lack reading comprehension.

 

 

How is that relevant? I think that most people agree that people dying is a bad thing and that war brings sorrow. Platitudes aren't arguments.

Source? Because I seriously doubt Germany ellected you to speak on its behalf, so I'm not willing to just swallow your opinion as truth here either.

Besides, if what you said were true, it wouldn't be in history manuals and there wouldn't be any museums dedicated to the events around that period.

 

Then perhaps you should educate yourself on the topic of semiotics. What is important isn't the symbol per se, but the intent to which it is used to denote a certain meaning.

In this case it can be argued that it's solely been used to demarcate itself from other bikers groups percieved as less hardcore and/or posers.

Rules are to be enforced at the discretion of the authorities. You can't force them to actually enforce a rule as they have no obligation to do so. At least as far as APB:R goes, and we're only concerned with that.

Admitedly, you could try to sue them for this in the state their servers are hosted, or in other states because their service is accessible from them.

But are you really willing to go this far to prevent someone, whom means no ill, from using some symbolics with no intended hate behind them?

 

 

While you're entirely right in that the conotation of those symbols (as opposed to the denotation) are admitedly of or akin to racist ideologies, taking it so seriously in the context of a biker avatar for a virtual online game is overblowing things way out of proportions. Especially since there is no harm intended and nobody actually bothered to report him and/or enforce the rules on him for a seven years period; esentially legitimising his claims that he isn't harmful.

thank you for so eloquently defending me. 

[Ohshii 215]

You've had that symbol on your characters for 7 years and no one has said a word, chances are they will continue to not notice it. Why'd you even make a post about this to begin with, youre dry-snitching on yourself, gg dummy lol.

 

Stop catering to people who dont give a shit about you and just do the damn thing.

 

 

[mtz 496]

Ooh, someone wants to defend neonazi symbolics!

 

21 minutes ago, Onadan said:

And how would you go about determining non-virtual to virtual hatred?

Perhaps through people's decisions to deliberately use symbols loaded to the brim with hateful messaging behind them, hm? I'd give you the benefit of the doubt if our pal kurbstomp88 here was "just going for a themed character", but their actions and opinions expressed in this thread cast heavy doubt upon that notion.

 

21 minutes ago, Onadan said:

Feel free to try and prove your unbased claim. However, you can't just claim things as if they were truth and expect me to accept them with no real effort on your part.

Feel free to amuse me by trying to claim that 88 is not a hate symbol. (click)

I wonder what will you resort to here. Bingo sheet suggests you'll try to undermine ADL's authority, but hey, even those are wrong sometimes

 

21 minutes ago, Onadan said:

As we've established before, we're not talking about the movie. You lack reading comprehension.

I like how you've conveniently left out the part where I literally mention that the situation changes when the Black Panther Party and the New Black Panther Party are the focus. Next time, please try not to manipulate other people's posts when they're visible to everyone. Or just don't manipulate the intended message, 'cause that's kind of a shitty thing to do.

 

21 minutes ago, Onadan said:

How is that relevant? I think that most people agree that people dying is a bad thing and that war brings sorrow. Platitudes aren't arguments.

That is relevant, because it explains the reason why those symbols are stigmatised. Unfortunately for you, just because you misunderstand the argument, it does not make it invalid.

 

21 minutes ago, Onadan said:

Source? Because I seriously doubt Germany ellected you to speak on its behalf, so I'm not willing to just swallow your opinion as truth here either.

Besides, if what you said were true, it wouldn't be in history manuals and there wouldn't be any museums dedicated to the events around that period.

@first line: ...are you seriously trying to get me to explain an axiom to you? You don't have to be German to understand that it's a dark chapter in the country's history. All it takes is a history lesson or two in that field.

@second line: That's yet another instance of you conveniently omitting the part that, if included, would render your point as moot. Notice this and try to do less of this in the future.

 

21 minutes ago, Onadan said:

Then perhaps you should educate yourself on the topic of semiotics. What is important isn't the symbol per se, but the intent to which it is used to denote a certain meaning.

In this case it can be argued that it's solely been used to demarcate itself from other bikers groups percieved as less hardcore and/or posers.

@first line: ...yes, that is what I've been saying before. The intent of the symbol's use loads it with meaning.

@second line: ...so showing others that you're "badass" by invoking Nazi symbolism. Huh.

[mtz 496]

16 minutes ago, Onadan said:

Allegedly. Which doesn't mean much. Nazism was a group united behind an expression of protest towards the mistreatment, abuse, hated, and violence aimed at the German people...

Source? Because I seriously doubt Antifa ellected you to speak on its behalf, so I'm not willing to just swallow your opinion as truth here either. :^)

Nice false equivalency with the Nazi comparison there, by the way.

17 minutes ago, Onadan said:

It's also been recognised as a domestic terrorist group for over a year now. Poor choice.

Wow, it's almost as if activism wasn't limited to just peaceful protests, and it often extended into questionable tactics!

Also, good job on trying to suggest that I'm advocating for their actions. (Which, let's be clear and put this on record, I'm not. Violence doesn't solve anything.)

[kurbstomp88 25]

11 minutes ago, MartinPL said:

 

@second line: ...so showing others that you're "badass" by invoking Nazi symbolism. Huh.

but the point of the matter is the symbolism is very much a part of outlaw mc culture its part of what seperates 1%ers from yuppies and I may have certain undertones to my character and I have unpopular beliefs but clearly to the fact my character has looked this way for 7 years I clearly don't go around racial attacking people or yelling racial slurs 

19 minutes ago, Ohshii said:

You've had that symbol on your characters for 7 years and no one has said a word, chances are they will continue to not notice it. Why'd you even make a post about this to begin with, youre dry-snitching on yourself, gg dummy lol.

 

Stop catering to people who dont give a shit about you and just do the damn thing.

 

 

because I have more then 700 dollars worth of cosmetics on my account and don't want to get blind sided with a ban. during g1 era I confirmed my symbol was fine but in the post about nudity was linked to a blog post from matt and he clearly stated no tolerance for anything related to Nazi germany. 

[mtz 496]

2 minutes ago, kurbstomp88 said:

but the point of the matter is the symbolism is very much a part of outlaw mc culture its part of what seperates 1%ers from yuppies

First off, that reeks of gatekeeping and the no-true-Scotsman fallacy.

Secondly, exactly what about the "outlaw motorcycle club" culture requires its participants to flaunt insignia loaded with bigoted messaging? Is it about believing in your own freedom or about being all "look how many races and minorities I hate!"?

 

5 minutes ago, kurbstomp88 said:

and I may have certain undertones to my character and I have unpopular beliefs but clearly to the fact my character has looked this way for 7 years I clearly don't go around racial attacking people or yelling racial slurs 

I'm unironically grateful for the part after the second "clearly" in this quote. Still does not absolve anything before that in my eyes though.

If your beliefs require you to use hateful symbolism, perhaps you should reevaluate your priorities. And the point still stands that you've been in violation of the Terms of Service for seven years and the only reason that went unnoticed is because no one bothered to look closer at your character's clothes and report it.

[kurbstomp88 25]

4 minutes ago, MartinPL said:

First off, that reeks of gatekeeping and the no-true-Scotsman fallacy.

Secondly, exactly what about the "outlaw motorcycle club" culture requires its participants to flaunt insignia loaded with bigoted messaging? Is it about believing in your own freedom or about being all "look how many races and minorities I hate!"?

 

I'm unironically grateful for the part after the second "clearly" in this quote. Still does not absolve anything before that in my eyes though.

If your beliefs require you to use hateful symbolism, perhaps you should reevaluate your priorities. And the point still stands that you've been in violation of the Terms of Service for seven years and the only reason that went unnoticed is because no one bothered to look closer at your character's clothes and report it.

again I grew up outlaw mc and was in outlaw mc three of the most important  bi-laws for 99% outlaw mc is being of aryian decent, must have a Harley Davidson or American produced motor cycle no female patch holders 

[Onadan 14]

 

"Ooh, someone wants to defend neonazi symbolics!" -MartinPL

No. I was arguing that since those symbols are not used with neonazi intent, they therefore aren't neonazi sumbolics. You could use better reading comprehension.

 

"Perhaps through people's decisions to deliberately use symbols loaded to the brim with hateful messaging behind them, hm?" -MartinPL

Except that, those symbols weren't used with hatefun intent. You therefore cannot claim there was a deliberate decision to do so.

"Feel free to amuse me by trying to claim that 88 is not a hate symbol." -MartinPL

All I said that it wasn't forcibly a hate symbol. Do not put words in my mouth.

 

"I like how you've conveniently left out the part where I literally mention that the situation changes when the Black Panther Party and the New Black Panther Party are the focus. Next time, please try not to manipulate other people's posts when they're visible to everyone. Or just don't manipulate the intended message, 'cause that's kind of a shitty thing to do." -MartinPL

I only adressed the parts that were mistaken, and explained why. If you equate pointing obvious mistakes that resulted from what I can only consider poor reading comprehension on your part as "manipulating the intended message" then I suggest you spend more time figuring out what it is you want to say.

 

"That is relevant, because it explains the reason why those symbols are stigmatised." -MartinPL

That is a claim, not an argument. You have to argue why it "explains the reason [...]" otherwise it's just thin air.

 

"Unfortunately for you, just because you misunderstand the argument, it does not make it invalid." -MartinPL

As I pointed out, there was no arguments. You might want to read the definition in any online dictionary.

 

"@first line: ...are you seriously trying to get me to explain an axiom to you? You don't have to be German to understand that it's a dark chapter in the country's history. All it takes is a history lesson or two in that field." -MartinPL

You're not adressing my point at all.

 

"That's yet another instance of you conveniently omitting the part that, if included, would render your point as moot" -MartinPL

That you convinently omit in turn eventhough it could've effortlessly and irrefutably proved me wrong. Which just leads me to believe you're yet again full of air.

 

"The intent of the symbol's use loads it with meaning." -MartinPL

So you're either agreeing with everything I said, or you have no clear understanding of the difference between conotation and denotation. You sound confused.

 

"so showing others that you're "badass" by invoking Nazi symbolism. Huh." -MartinPL

Excuse me, but how is that an argument? All I can see is someone being nasty on the internet.

 

"Source? Because I seriously doubt Antifa ellected you to speak on its behalf, so I'm not willing to just swallow your opinion as truth here either. :^)" -MartinPL

That statement is irrelevant to whatever you quoted. You're not making any point either, you're just parroting me, being a nasty person.

 

 

"Nice false equivalency with the Nazi comparison there, by the way." -MartinPL

Explain why the eauivalency is false.

This is a claim, not an argument. Claims have to be either proven with facts or justified with arguments. You should really read on basic logics/linguistics as this exercise seems to be too difficult for you as you are right now.

 

"Wow, it's almost as if activism wasn't limited to just peaceful protests, and it often extended into questionable tactics!" -MartinPL

Yeah, which is why it was a poor choice on your part in my opinion. My point still stands as you've only confirmed it.

 

"Also, good job on trying to suggest that I'm advocating for their actions." -MartinPL

Trying to suggest? You are raving. And slandering me at the same time.

I would never resort to such slimey tactics. But those might not be beyond you I suppose? That could explain your antipathic tone.

 

 

Anyway, you bring no arguments to the table, have clearly no understanding on how to argue - or even what consitutes an argument for that matter - have been needlessly rude, and just keep on making nonsensical claims. I am not responding to you anymore until you learn how to argument your points at least semi-decently.

[AsgerLund 1271]

Keep going, guys.

[mtz 496]

21 minutes ago, Onadan said:

No. I was arguing that since those symbols are not used with neonazi intent, they therefore aren't neonazi sumbolics.

21 minutes ago, Onadan said:

Except that, those symbols weren't used with hatefun intent.

A rose by any other name [...]

 

22 minutes ago, Onadan said:

I only adressed the parts that were mistaken, and explained why. If you equate pointing obvious mistakes that resulted from what I can only consider poor reading comprehension on your part as "manipulating the intended message" then I suggest you spend more time figuring out what it is you want to say.

Still nope. You cherrypicked the part that, when taken out of context, can be considered mistaken. Try again.

 

This one will do without a quote; Sorry, but you'll have to try harder than just saying "no it doesn't count because i say so" to disprove my stance.

 

29 minutes ago, Onadan said:

That you convinently omit in turn eventhough it could've effortlessly and irrefutably proved me wrong. Which just leads me to believe you're yet again full of air.

???what

I'm sure there is a timeline in which this statement makes sense in context of my previous post. This one ain't it, though. You literally omitted a part to misconstrue my statement, then when I called you out on it, you're saying that I omitted something?

 

25 minutes ago, Onadan said:

Yeah, which is why it was a poor choice on your part in my opinion. My point still stands as you've only confirmed it.

Black-and-white morality much?

 

26 minutes ago, Onadan said:

Trying to suggest? You are raving. And slandering me at the same time.

I would never resort to such slimey tactics. But those might not be beyond you I suppose? That could explain your antipathic tone.

Yeah, you clearly would never resort to "such slimey tactics", which is why in your first interaction with me you insulted me and tried to undermine my position by implying that I "lack reading comprehension".

 

27 minutes ago, Onadan said:

Anyway, you bring no arguments to the table, have clearly no understanding on how to argue - or even what consitutes an argument for that matter - have been needlessly rude, and just keep on making nonsensical claims. I am not responding to you anymore until you learn how to argument your points at least semi-decently.

That's rich coming from someone who can't bring any argumentation that goes further than saying "no it doesn't count". But sure, if you want to pretend that you hold any sort of moral higher ground here, be my guest. We could do with less defense of the use of Nazi symbolics nowadays.

 

virtual five bucks says he'll reply anyway despite going "i wont talk to u anymore until the arbitrary point where i decide that i care >:("

[Rapid99 50]

You don't need to have racist symbols on a cut for it to look like an authentic outlaw MC cut lol. 

If you want your character to look like he is part of a racist outlaw MC then sure, go ahead (though you'll probably have actions taken against your account).

But no one is going to give you any sh*t for having a 3 piece patch or a one percenter patch or an iron cross or whatever (since the iron cross is a really damn generic and traditional symbol). SS logos or swastikas or whatnot though? Yeah i'd avoid that.

 

And before you retort with "u dun know muh outlaw MC life", you're not the only person who grew up around (or was involved with) outlaw MCs. I've got a tiny toddler leather cut hanging on my door from when I was a little sh*t and my parents would take me with them to various club parties and bike rallys and whatnot. I've got a bunch of pins on that vest that were gifts from people my dad knew and hung around with; i've got one from a Pagan, one from a Warlock, one from a Hell's Angel, and a handful of others from various other smaller local MCs (one percenter or otherwise). I mean christ, I have two middle names, and one of them is literally Harley.

 

I've seen and known some members with racially charged patches on their cut, but that sh*t was definitely not on everyone's. 

 

TLDR: You don't NEED racist symbols to make an authentic outlaw MC cut, so no, it's not alright

[vsb 6171]

as totally-not-mind-numbing as this debate is, nazi imagery isn’t against the rules because of how players may feel, it’s because apb has to comply with german laws 

[wibsey 91]

One of my main characters has had a skinhead outfit (plus tattoos - no neonazi) for years....had no trouble... 

 

Showcasing the swastika is a no no, But I do believe the stutzstaffel is gray area? 

 

Either way, mostly all character themes are tolerable unless you kick the patootie out of the hate logos/flags...

 

[Flight 239]

It seems this thread has run its course. I will be closing it for now.