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RNG vs Skill poll, because im bored and like seeing people's reactions.

Require more Skill or more RNG?  

99 members have voted

  1. 1. For a game like APB, would it be better to make weapons more skill based? Or increase the RNG.

    • Skill, a player should be the reason they win not because of their weapon
    • RNG, ... idk a good reason for this one just comment it if you have one plz c:
  2. 2. Bonus: Since LO added the ability to shoot through player cars that are not in your mission, should they also make them transparent?

    • Yes similar to GTA 5 passive mode
    • No it's fine as is
    • Bring back full collisions


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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, 404 said:

you dont control rng, thats why its called rng

Recoil control isn't a thing for FPS games?

 

Also, remember that time when everyone complained and G1 removed the auto-recoil fix on the HVR? Fun times.

Edited by Noob_Guardian

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9 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

Recoil control isn't a thing for FPS games?

im not sure which fps game youre talking about because there are dozens of different mechanics, but yes generally controlling recoil is reactive and not proactive 

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This game is already very skill based.

 

I know a few arcade like shooter games with a nearly 100% weapon accuracy. NOBODY liked that. Only a few diehards stayed.

Iam telling you... This is not what you want. Try playing with OSCAR. Most of the players hate that gun for its accuracy. 

There is always this 0.1% who would absolutely dominate everybody with OSCAR while others wouldnt be able to land a shot for their whole life

 

I know a game where I actualy liked that but it was projectile based and easy to land a shot

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I swear to god if this game ends up giving guns preset sprays I prob would't play another match again. 

Part of the charm of this game is the inability to predict what your gun will do when you unleash it. If you have an idea of how to control it based on your own experiences then you become more skilled no?

Take the snub nose, total meme of a gun anywhere else but a good player would have a blast shooting newbies with it, or even show off the valentine variant. Or on the side of things that shouldn't get preset patterns.. any of UL-3s, yukon or basically any retardedly fast firing gun would IMO be fundamentally broken if given a preset spray.

RNG has and should always be in a shooter to a degree. I don't think anyone in this world could hold a gun full auto and hit every shot in the exact same place, not matter how talented or stronk you are.
(Unless you're using some stupidly small caliber bullet, I still highly doubt someone running through 30 rounds of 9mm could hold it completely straight in a windless environment)

Kinda why I dislike CS:GO but also admire it, at the same time, in instances where recoil is fully predicable, you know that the fact someone beat you was because they ultimately knew what they were doing better than you did.

Then you run into cheats that move mice to mimic the perfect recoil pattern and you open a whole new closet of horrors. 

Win/loss I suppose? It would change this game entirely me thinks if RNG was removed.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, 404 said:

im not sure which fps game youre talking about because there are dozens of different mechanics, but yes generally controlling recoil is reactive and not proactive 

I was saying that recoil control is a way of managing RNG. Yes, it's reactive, however the pro-active way would mean rebalancing EVERY gun in game, and making it reaaally boring and imbalanced to the point where you'd have to rebalance damage drop ranges, bloom, and TTKs further. Which would cause a whole batch of other issues.

 

Some weapons like the ISSR-B control its .9 TTK with its bloom aka "RNG", remove that and it's a busted sniper which needs its TTK increased drastically, imagine a no recoil shaw and NFA because their RNG aka recoil is what allows them to have such low ttks.

 

When people talk about removing RNG, they fail to realize how broken it would make things without first rebalancing EVERY weapon in the game in the process AT ONCE. Because you wouldn't be able to do such balance otherwise, and it opens a whole slew of other problems while doing so.

 

Then again these same people want to remove the damage ramp and make it so bullets disappear at damage range as well and complain hard about ez laser weapons like the atac, c-2 before nerf, and pre-nerf shredder were while advocating to making the weapons they like just as ez to use as them.

 

Doing such changes won't make weapons about skill, bloom management, or recoil management. People advocating this want to bore down the game because they're tired of dying to those they consider silver and lesser. It's why they hate the HVR so much, "how dare my life be threatened by a bloody r30 with a sniper". "How dare I die because of recoil" "how dare i die because I didn't manage bloom" same shit really, it's the same people complaining because they didn't handle their weapon correctly and instead of blaming their lack of skill and care in the situation, and want to blame something else, instead of chocking it up to "welp i tried and died" its "*insert excuse* caused me to die" and its always the same people.

 

5 hours ago, Trivirium said:


Then you run into cheats that move mice to mimic the perfect recoil pattern and you open a whole new closet of horrors. 
 

People have already made macros for APB which completely remove vertical recoil for snipers, ntec, etc. just saying. Pretty sure you can make one to do so using a hardware mouse macro as well depending on brand and mouse "software" as well. It's part of why macros are bannable. (And then you have the macro apologists...)

 

Edited by Noob_Guardian

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31 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

removing RNG

i guess the first thing to point out is that im fairly sure no one in this thread has suggested completely removing rng from apb

 

 

35 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

Some weapons like the ISSR-B control its .9 TTK with its bloom aka "RNG"

the issrb is a good example of how rng can be used to encourage specific behavior without automatically removing a portion of user control, this is the kind of rng mechanic that should be the standard for apb imo

 

 

40 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

imagine a no recoil shaw and NFA because their RNG aka recoil is what allows them to have such low ttks.

the shaw and nfa are examples of rng done poorly - 2 simultaneous levels of unavoidable rng, through recoil and initial spread 

 

 

48 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

When people talk about removing RNG, they fail to realize how broken it would make things without first rebalancing EVERY weapon in the game in the process AT ONCE. Because you wouldn't be able to do such balance otherwise, and it opens a whole slew of other problems while doing so.

 

Then again these same people want to remove the damage ramp and make it so bullets disappear at damage range as well and complain hard about ez laser weapons like the atac, c-2 before nerf, and pre-nerf shredder were while advocating to making the weapons they like just as ez to use as them.

 

Doing such changes won't make weapons about skill, bloom management, or recoil management. People advocating this want to bore down the game because they're tired of dying to those they consider silver and lesser. It's why they hate the HVR so much, "how dare my life be threatened by a bloody r30 with a sniper". "How dare I die because of recoil" "how dare i die because I didn't manage bloom" same shit really, it's the same people complaining because they didn't handle their weapon correctly and instead of blaming their lack of skill and care in the situation, and want to blame something else, instead of chocking it up to "welp i tried and died" its "*insert excuse* caused me to die" and its always the same people.

youve gone off on some weird tangent here that seems to be about elitist golds as far as i can tell, but i think youre mixing things up

 

reducing rng would be a buff for the "ez laser weapon" atac and likely the shredder too, so im not sure what agenda these "people" of yours are pushing

 

the c2 would/should stay as is since its balanced well enough, and most people complained about it prenerf because it had a ridiculously high minimum damage value 

 

weapon rng has nothing at all to do with the hvr and i dont really want to derail this thread with another discussion of why the hvr is or is not busted

 

 

6 hours ago, Trivirium said:

I swear to god if this game ends up giving guns preset sprays I prob would't play another match again. 

static recoil/spread patterns are not something i would like to see

 

 

6 hours ago, Trivirium said:

Part of the charm of this game is the inability to predict what your gun will do when you unleash it. If you have an idea of how to control it based on your own experiences then you become more skilled no?

i dont think an inability to predict your own performance is charming, that seems more like a sim shooter type feature than an arcade shooter type feature

 

the difference i see is that with potentially reduced rng elements a player would be rewarded or punished as a direct result of their weapon handling skills, while with the current elements players are punished or rewarded no matter how they handle their weapon

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On 8/16/2020 at 8:39 PM, CookiePuss said:

What we are discussing is RNG and what our opinions are about it. I would like to see less RNG than we have now as I really don't enjoy losing fights because of RNG. If I can aim well, I feel like I should be rewarded for that and not get shafted by RNG.

On one hand I agree with @Noob_Guardian, if you use a weapon within its intended range you won't have to deal with RNG. Only outside that range it does become a factor. Of course this is usually gradual and there is one perfect spot where a weapon is entirely predictable, while it becomes increasingly less so as you move away from that sweet spot in either direction.

 

And generally speaking all weapons should be 100% predictable when your barrel touches the enemy, because the bullets have no other option but to hit. But due to latency this rarely ever applies.

 

 

On 8/21/2020 at 6:10 AM, 404 said:

the shaw and nfa are examples of rng done poorly - 2 simultaneous levels of unavoidable rng, through recoil and initial spread

I think the SHAW is a great weapon and needs the amount of RNG to work. Without the heavy recoil it would need a much higher TTK or much lower accuracy, both of which would make the gun less unique. Not every weapon needs to be a competitive headliner. The SHAW is a fun niche weapon which is still perfectly able to compete, albeit less comfortably.

 

The NFA in its current state is bad, but I'll say that I don't think the concept behind it is fundamentally flawed. It is supposed to quickly dispose of enemies as extremely short range and to force it into this range a low base accuracy is necessary.

Alternatively one could cripple its effective damage range. But this would turn it into a much more frustrating weapon, because it would allow shots to hit at greater range without dealing any meaningful damage. It would communicate a use-case which it is not supposed to be used in.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/21/2020 at 12:10 AM, 404 said:

 

the issrb is a good example of how rng can be used to encourage specific behavior without automatically removing a portion of user control, this is the kind of rng mechanic that should be the standard for apb imo

 

Except that every weapon aside from OCA.PMG and a few others has this specific form of RNG to control how a weapon handles, from NTEC to OBEYA, as the RNG is used to inflate the TTK at longer ranges. It's also one thing people wish to lessen and remove, which in turn reduces TTK. ISSR is a good example of that, by using "bloom" to inflate its LR ttk, while leaving it faster in cqc.

 

On 8/21/2020 at 12:10 AM, 404 said:

 

the shaw and nfa are examples of rng done poorly - 2 simultaneous levels of unavoidable rng, through recoil and initial spread 

 

It's actually done well, most low TTK weapons in games aside from shotguns, like LMGS, have poor RNG to make up for their strength and ROF/TTKs. If these weapons were to have RNG removed, their TTK's would have to be increased, otherwise they wouldn't be balanced.

 

On 8/21/2020 at 12:10 AM, 404 said:

youve gone off on some weird tangent here that seems to be about elitist golds as far as i can tell, but i think youre mixing things up

 

reducing rng would be a buff for the "ez laser weapon" atac and likely the shredder too, so im not sure what agenda these "people" of yours are pushing

 

the c2 would/should stay as is since its balanced well enough, and most people complained about it prenerf because it had a ridiculously high minimum damage value 

 

weapon rng has nothing at all to do with the hvr and i dont really want to derail this thread with another discussion of why the hvr is or is not busted

 

 

I mean, i was pointing out the hypocrisy and that they tend to support reducing/removing RNG but then they complain about how ez and zergy those listed weapons are/were, but then want to buff most other weapons to be just as bad by reducing rng. 

 

People fail to realize that the current system's RNG is made to inflate TTK at ranges while reducing it in cqc. By reducing RNG, you therefore reduce the TTKs as well even at range. You'd need to increase TTK's and change weapon damage drop range and ramps if you were to remove RNG. Though most support removing the ramp/drop it still causes many issues within damage drop ranges, because weapons have an effective range, and a full damage before drop range.

On 8/21/2020 at 12:10 AM, 404 said:

static recoil/spread patterns are not something i would like to see

 

People have suggested it ironically

 

On 8/21/2020 at 12:10 AM, 404 said:

 

i dont think an inability to predict your own performance is charming, that seems more like a sim shooter type feature than an arcade shooter type feature

 

the difference i see is that with potentially reduced rng elements a player would be rewarded or punished as a direct result of their weapon handling skills, while with the current elements players are punished or rewarded no matter how they handle their weapon

I disagree, most cases i see of being punished with a weapon, is due to position, enemy location (corner/cover) and how the game functions with aiming at corners (,and lag). Though weapons like the SHAW often punish you often due to recoil, it's rare for you to benefit from their recoil (hence why i tend to burst fire said weapons). Most weapons don't have that bad of recoil and bloom so that its uncontrollable nor unmanageable when firing at the right ROF and timing.

 

A LOT of people's weapon woes come from firing too fast for the range, especially out of the weapons effective range, and is thus user error. Others are where they fire at the wrong time, so that even if they have the upper hand, the enemy can get away because they didn't wait another second to start firing to where the enemy had no chance to get to cover (You don't really lose to RNG with an oca ambushing an enemy in cqc, you lost because you missed or server issues).  Overall i believe most weapon woes tend to be self inflicted, and that's where people get hung up. Especially when they have thousands of hours and played for years. Instead of adjusting their play style and timing they instead blame the gun.

 

 

Edited by Noob_Guardian

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Posted (edited)

bad poll, super biased and too few options.

also wrong info. (LO did not enable anyone to shoot through 3rd party cars, this is how it has always been)

 

also public poll.

voted rng simply because there was no 3rd option (fine as is) and because you introduced bias against it.

Edited by neophobia
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