Balance Suggestions From a Top Player

[Toone 3]

More balance changes than these need to be made, but for the most part these are what really ruins APB's gameplay on a core level. Most of these changes are mainly adjustments to values.

 

Fix the spawn system

For defenders, bare minimum spawn should be 120m from the objective no matter what. For attackers, bare minimum spawn should be 100m. The maximum for either side should be 200. Remove the car spawner mod from the game or adjust the spawn rules so you cannot spawn within 120m of the objective. Both sides should have a cluster of spawn options on opposite sides of the objective. The spawn options should be 50m from each other and scattered around a 250m radius of the objective (while still following the rule of spawning on one side of the objective). If you die and before you respawn the objective is taken you should spawn at minimum 200m from the new point and within 300m of the old point. All of this would address the issues of people dying then respawning right next to the objective/other players and dying when an objective is taken then respawning at the new point before the other team can get to it. It also addresses how strong car spawners are since it allows you to create your own spawn point and since you're already in a car can get to a location much quicker than even a player who spawns new cars/a car spawner.

 

Fix explosives/resupplying

Explosives should be a very limited aspect of the game. Limit all grenades to 1 and remove the ability to resupply them outside of joker machines and respawning. Low yields would also go from 3>1, but low yields are already very useful since they can go further and have a lower timer to throw. Add a 2 minute global cooldown to resupplying/changing weapons.

 

Balance cars

Slightly buff the speed and acceleration of the Coywolf, Jericho, and Bishada to make them more viable. Make a slight nerf to speed and significant nerf to handling and acceleration of the Espacio and Pioneer. These cars are too strong due to how tanky they are while providing amazing cover in a game where you can't shoot through windows making it extremely common for people to just sit in these cars. Making them feel heavier and sluggish to use will help balance them so other cars are more viable. Nerf the 4x4's top speed or acceleration so it's not such a strong all around car. It's tanky since it can survive a concussion grenade while also being fast and powerful in ramming situations. Either nerf its speed or nerfs its ramming power, but I'd recommend speed so it fits a niche of being a strong sports car instead of dipping into the Bishada/Jericho niche.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Toone

[NotZombieBiscuit 3146]

'Top player btw'

[Toone 3]

19 minutes ago, NotZombieBiscuit said:

'Top player btw'

If this game had an actual rank system like League of Legends I'd be challenger right now or grandmaster all-time be honest with yourself

Edited March 1, 2020 by Toone

[maldar 7]

15 hours ago, NotZombieBiscuit said:

'Top player btw'

Play nice with the kiddos.

[Yapopal 169]

Espanzo, Pioneer and Vegas must be nerfed. These tanks cannot be destroyed even by a rocket launcher. These are just big cars. I believe that all cars should have the same supply of health. Health reserves must be changed by modifiers.

[Rehtaelle 18]

On 2/29/2020 at 5:56 PM, Toone said:

Remove the car spawner mod from the game or adjust the spawn rules so you cannot spawn within 120m of the objective.

The entire purpose of the custom spawner is to work around the fuck-awful spawn system in this game.

[Toone 3]

10 minutes ago, Rehtaelle said:

The entire purpose of the custom spawner is to work around the fuck-awful spawn system in this game.

Which introduces its own issues and compounds the issue instead of fixing it. Spawns should be close enough to be able to help (around 120m) without spawning in los of another player, but not too far that you have no impact (beyond 200m).

[Rehtaelle 18]

Just now, Toone said:

Which introduces its own issues and compounds the issue instead of fixing it. Spawns should be close enough to be able to help (around 120m) without spawning in los of another player, but not too far that you have no impact (beyond 200m).

I'm not arguing that the spawn system as it exists isn't fucking TRAAASH, but I think spawners are a useful mechanic to the ends of allowing players to be strategic about it instead of praying to RNGsus. And improved map design would go miles beyond just the spawn system. That's why waterfront is fucking horrid.

 

"I thought you liked spawning out in the open near no car spawners roughly 300m from a rooftop objective..."

[Toone 3]

1 minute ago, Rehtaelle said:

I'm not arguing that the spawn system as it exists isn't fucking TRAAASH, but I think spawners are a useful mechanic to the ends of allowing players to be strategic about it instead of praying to RNGsus. And improved map design would go miles beyond just the spawn system. That's why waterfront is fucking horrid.

 

"I thought you liked spawning out in the open near no car spawners roughly 300m from a rooftop objective..."

My proposed changes allow exactly that. You still pick your spawn, just now it won't be spawning on top of the objective so the team that kills the other actually benefits from kills rather than get punished when someone who just died respawns near them. Dying should be a penalty and carry weight in an objective-based game. Realistically changing the map won't happen and even then, this issue exists within financial even in spots that don't suffer from design issues like the boat area of Waterfront.

[Fortune Runner 796]

On 2/29/2020 at 5:56 PM, Toone said:

 

while you may believe these suggested changes would be good , the city itself is not built to be in such a way.

what was added to APB was to fix what was broken to begin with.

those suggestions would then break APB balance at a whole.

no thank you

[Toone 3]

35 minutes ago, Fortune Runner said:

while you may believe these suggested changes would be good , the city itself is not built to be in such a way.

what was added to APB was to fix what was broken to begin with.

those suggestions would then break APB balance at a whole.

no thank you

The spawn system is only bad when it spawns you too far or doesn't let you spawn in enough spots to reposition or at least not be spawn camped. Having more sprawl to the spawn spots and having a maximum and minimum range fixes the issue. What exactly is the issue with the spawn system if you disagree?

[Fortune Runner 796]

the spawn system has been broken before car spawns  from long ago.

someone correct me if I am wrong but I believe it was never functioning properly to begin with.

 

also the current engine and how the city is built really messes with spawning as well. (the coding itself plus structure locations and possible spawns because of it)

a lot of other factors also broke spawning because the coding is a mess. (like how street lights in one district work while the other does not.)

while some believe simply adjusting spawning can be done , we have seen over the years how even simple adjustments breaks it more.

 

when we have a better chance of not damaging the coding more then i wouldn't mind the spawning being worked on but i highly doubt it can with the current engine making a mess of things

with that said , I am uncertain of any standing opinion that  SPCT has on this issue. they would know more than I do.

 

also i like how you asked rather than got defensive like some do so i liked your post. nicely handled

[Toone 3]

16 minutes ago, Fortune Runner said:

the spawn system has been broken before car spawns  from long ago.

someone correct me if I am wrong but I believe it was never functioning properly to begin with.

 

also the current engine and how the city is built really messes with spawning as well. (the coding itself plus structure locations and possible spawns because of it)

a lot of other factors also broke spawning because the coding is a mess. (like how street lights in one district work while the other does not.)

while some believe simply adjusting spawning can be done , we have seen over the years how even simple adjustments breaks it more.

 

when we have a better chance of not damaging the coding more then i wouldn't mind the spawning being worked on but i highly doubt it can with the current engine making a mess of things

with that said , I am uncertain of any standing opinion that  SPCT has on this issue. they would know more than I do.

 

also i like how you asked rather than got defensive like some do so i liked your post. nicely handled

I don't see the conflict with my suggestion. The current system doesn't work because people spawn too close to the objective in an objective-based game. Especially with car spawns where you can literally spawn on top of the objective.

[Fortune Runner 796]

if it could be fixed by such  means then it would of already been done by something at all rather than nothing.

it is much more complicated than even what i have said.

[Toone 3]

13 minutes ago, Fortune Runner said:

if it could be fixed by such  means then it would of already been done by something at all rather than nothing.

it is much more complicated than even what i have said.

Strong disagree, we've seen stuff like this in many games with an active developer, nevermind APB. The developers of most games are typically average at best at the game. They'll never truly understand core issues with the game from their testing and experience. What core changes have the devs made in APB? NTEC change (terrible), ability to sprint between shots (terrible in execution since the bloom penalty might as well not exist), 4x4 creation (terrible), and shotgun rebelance (remains to be seen) are the only significant changes to the core game since G1/Little Orbit has gotten the game from RTW outside of the addition of 195 mods (most like low yields, car spawners, and remote det are unhealthy for the game). What significant changes have been made to the core gameplay that were actually good for game balance?

They won't be the first or last dev team to struggle with not having a proper grasp for game design from a balance standpoint. We've seen it in popular games like League of Legends and Overwatch and we've seen it throughout APB's history.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Toone

[Fortune Runner 796]

1 hour ago, Toone said:

Strong disagree, we've seen stuff like this in many games with an active developer, nevermind APB.

name one with a 10+ year old game engine trying to fix a spaghetti coding mess like APB.....

 

1 hour ago, Toone said:

he developers of most games are typically average at best at the game. They'll never truly understand core issues with the game from their testing and experience

if that was true we wouldnt have any  games like WOW

 

1 hour ago, Toone said:

What core changes have the devs made in APB? NTEC change (terrible), ability to sprint between shots (terrible in execution since the bloom penalty might as well not exist), 4x4 creation (terrible), and shotgun rebelance (remains to be seen) are the only significant changes to the core game since G1/Little Orbit has gotten the game from RTW outside of the addition of 195 mods (most like low yields, car spawners, and remote det are unhealthy for the game). What significant changes have been made to the core gameplay that were actually good for game balance?

g1 used us to make money. they didn't want to fix APB. Little Orbit has been working hard trying to solve the problems and even the SPCT team has said

the issues you mentioned with items in game is your personal opinion , not facts. plus the n tec needed it so that it wouldnt be the beat all situation gun when no gun is supposed to do that.

1 hour ago, Toone said:

G1/Little Orbit

two different company's.  they are not the same company.

 

1 hour ago, Toone said:

They won't be the first or last dev team to struggle with not having a proper grasp for game design from a balance standpoint. We've seen it in popular games like League of Legends and Overwatch and we've seen it throughout APB's history.

it is impossible to be perfect in all programming because we are only human. please be more reasonable.

 

if my post sounds rude it is not meant to be.

On 3/2/2020 at 3:30 AM, SHEMER said:

Vegas

 

On 3/2/2020 at 3:30 AM, SHEMER said:

These tanks cannot be destroyed even by a rocket launcher

........ what? yes they can i drive them lol

[Toone 3]

9 hours ago, Fortune Runner said:

1. name one with a 10+ year old game engine trying to fix a spaghetti coding mess like APB.....

 

2. if that was true we wouldnt have any  games like WOW

 

3. g1 used us to make money. they didn't want to fix APB. Little Orbit has been working hard trying to solve the problems and even the SPCT team has said

the issues you mentioned with items in game is your personal opinion , not facts. plus the n tec needed it so that it wouldnt be the beat all situation gun when no gun is supposed to do that.

two different company's.  they are not the same company.

 

4. it is impossible to be perfect in all programming because we are only human. please be more reasonable.

 

5. if my post sounds rude it is not meant to be.

 

6. ........ what? yes they can i drive them lol

1. It's not about the engine or coding, it's about the gameplay design lead/producer's thoughts on what is balanced gameplay. Something that will always be heavily flawed unless that individual plays the game at a high level against high level players.

2. Another game that has diminished in balance over the years. People typically consider TBC the golden age of WoW with many pservers that release using that patch as a basis for the game.

3. Except they tried to fix APB and it usually resulted in worse balance. Little Orbit can either fix the issues or continue the trend. If their idea of fixing the game is to go 'the code's broken, leave everything as is' like people in this thread believe, good luck fixing anything. I never said the NTEC didn't need a nerf, the issue is how they went about nerfing it. The bloom change screamed 'I don't play the game' despite them testing it and having public testing. It is personal opinion, just like theirs and the developers. The difference being the level of play. I've played the game since it's initial RTW beta on and off through all the changes from no recoil to the recoil patch to the HVR qs patch to the changes the mods to the sprint shooting patch to the 195 mods releases NTEC changes to the legendaries releases to the now with the shotgun rebalance. I've played with and against all of the best players in the games from members of mbah to Africa City to raov and so on. The issues that people constantly complain about is the spawn system, mission balance, grenades, cars, PMG, hard HVR, true ogre, and the old NTEC. Mission balance would be an extreme change that would take an entire revamping of the system that is too far off from now. The spawn system can be changed very easily with new spawn rules to avoid people respawning right on top of the objective and players (easily the worst part of APB's balance). Grenades mainly come down to grenade spam which would be fixed with only having one grenade (a very reasonable change considering you can resupply grenades easily in this game) so the gameplay is more gun-focused rather than who's willing to spam the most grenades (especially 3 low yields). Nobody really complains about the car changes I proposed, those are more of my opinion. The meta has been 4x4 and Pioneer/Espacio forever for a reason. Pioneer/Espacio's speed and handling aren't bad enough to make fast cars viable enough. People just sit in these tanks since the only way to get them out is with an explosive weapon or concussion grenades. While you're cooking a grenade or emptying a clip into the car they have more than enough time to get out and into another car or to take cover behind a vehicle as tall as players and low to the ground (mainly the Espacio) for perfect cover while your in the animation of reloading or throwing the grenade. 4x4 is just an insane car all around, the physics of it are too glitchy. You accelerate like a demon and can ram other cars across the map easily, it can tank a concussion grenade, and still is just as fast as the fast cars. Bishada/Jericho/Coywolf are just inferior cars straight up, they need a buff or change to make them more viable. Hard HVR straight up needs to be removed or have significant penalties for moving, crouching, and leaning. PMG needs a slight fire rate nerf or damage nerf. Again, you can call all of this opinion, but there's no surprise that top players complain about this stuff and you see certain stuff so often from top players.

5. I never felt it was rude

6. Pioneer/Espacio can tank an OSMAW shot, what you're saying is objectively untrue.

[Fortune Runner 796]

3 hours ago, Toone said:

It's not about the engine or coding

you can not have anything without the engine and coding. its how it exists.

 

3 hours ago, Toone said:

2. Another game that has diminished in balance over the years. People typically consider TBC the golden age of WoW with many pservers that release using that patch as a basis for the game.

you missed my point entirely and added something weird off of opinion.

3 hours ago, Toone said:

3.

Little orbit has been fixing it. SPCT confirmed that. how you came up with this  boggles me.

 

3 hours ago, Toone said:

4

i dont see a number 4 so meh

 

3 hours ago, Toone said:

5

i check to make sure. I dont like to be rude to people and since this is only typing it can be mistaken for being rude.

 

3 hours ago, Toone said:

6. Pioneer/Espacio can tank an OSMAW shot, what you're saying is objectively untrue.

mine  starts to burn. if they have armor they may get more out of it though.

[Toone 3]

21 minutes ago, Fortune Runner said:

you can not have anything without the engine and coding. its how it exists.

 

you missed my point entirely and added something weird off of opinion.

Little orbit has been fixing it. SPCT confirmed that. how you came up with this  boggles me.

 

i dont see a number 4 so meh

 

i check to make sure. I dont like to be rude to people and since this is only typing it can be mistaken for being rude.

 

mine  starts to burn. if they have armor they may get more out of it though.

Spawn rules aren't the engine man, they're values. Just like how there's a value stating you can't spawn within x range of a player. It's about changing those values. You can call stuff opinion all you want, but when a lot of your best players say similar things it's pretty telling. I'm discussing G1. Little Orbit is trying to fix stuff yes, hence why I'm making suggestions. What is difficult to comprehend about that? And with the pioneer, that's my point. One rocket won't kill it, there's no real counterplay to it. Other vehicles will blow up at the expense of being fast or having great handling. It's ok that it doesn't blow up in one rocket, but there needs to be a real downside to these vehicles so they aren't used by every good player for all these years.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Toone

[boogiewitahoodie 2]

+rep

 

Post should be read thoroughly by devs! Please listen to a player that has played since RTW and not banned yearly!

[Fortune Runner 796]

7 minutes ago, Toone said:

Spawn rules aren't the engine man, they're values. Just like how there's a value stating you can't spawn within x range of a player. It's about changing those values. You can call stuff opinion all you want, but when a lot of your best players say similar things it's pretty telling. I'm discussing G1. Little Orbit is trying to fix stuff yes, hence why I'm making suggestions. What is difficult to comprehend about that? And with the pioneer, that's my point. One rocket won't kill it, there's no real counterplay to it. Other vehicles will blow up at the expense of being fast or having great handling. It's ok that it doesn't blow up in one rocket, but there needs to be a real downside to these vehicles so they aren't used by every good player for all these years.

an outdated broken engine that screws up coding is relevant in this case.

normally what you said would be accurate  but the old unreal engine is a nightmare to code with to the point the creators of that engine  couldn't even do it without problems.

 

[Toone 3]

On 3/8/2020 at 5:44 PM, Fortune Runner said:

an outdated broken engine that screws up coding is relevant in this case.

normally what you said would be accurate  but the old unreal engine is a nightmare to code with to the point the creators of that engine  couldn't even do it without problems.

 

I think you're really confused about what spawn rules are if you think it's an engine limitation

[Fortune Runner 796]

the fringe is a part of the whole

[Nabiki 65]

I like my 4x4 tanky as its supposed to be, and its actually slower than the normal g20 vegas to slow it further would be dumb.

[Toone 3]

6 hours ago, Nabiki said:

I like my 4x4 tanky as its supposed to be, and its actually slower than the normal g20 vegas to slow it further would be dumb.

My issue is that it's both tanky, strong, and fast with insane acceleration. They need to pull back on one aspect of the game some since right now the only negative to the car is the insane physics makes it difficult to handle sometimes. The car's acceleration in itself is really what makes the car ridiculous, it legitimately makes the game's physics engine break.