Proposal to streamline Clotting Agent

[Nitronik 348]

Opinion : Clotting Agent is in a strange spot as it stands - there's three versions of it, with the usage rate being stacked heavily in favor of Clotting Agent 3

TL;DR : Streamline clotting agent by removing 1 and renaming 3, following the trend of R195 mods (which have no levels)

The longer version, with a breakdown by mod

Clotting Agent 3 is the king. In a game so heavily based around CQB, you just need all the health you can get - it also helps if the nearly constant regeneration helps you pad the TTK of lower damage guns after sitting behind cover for just a moment.

If this proposal were to go through, this mod would be renamed and its symbol slightly altered, for the sake of quick ID. Even flipping it upside down would work!


Clotting Agent 2 sees some use, although it mostly is a matter of preference. The heavily shortened regeneration delay, coupled with the respectable regeneration speed, make it a viable option, although not the best by far - mid range combat aficionados may want to pick this instead, but the game still revolves around CQB

If this proposal were to go through, this mod would simply be known as "Clotting Agent" - it's the closest to default behavior, it just shifts the timings around a bit.

Clotting Agent 1 is nigh useless when compared to the other two. It's simply not a competitive choice, and may in fact just be a money sink which only tricks the inexperienced.
I don't think there is a reason for it to exist as a purchasable and equipable mod, which is why I think it would be better off removed

With the current average TTK, the default regeneration delay of eight seconds essentially means you're either out of the fight or straight up dead - which is why both CA2 and CA3 have so much popularity, while just about every other green mod doesn't

CA1 should become the new default regeneration rate. This would help both new players (who get a shorter regeneration delay) and everyone who is not using Clotting Agent.
Even in combination with Kevlar or Fragile, the small tweak provided by this mod would in no way be overpowered. Maybe consider removing the downside, and just shortening the default regeneration delay (8 seconds) by 25%


Why not make Clotting Agent 2 the default?

If you have some cover to use, this mod is king. Long range fights would become infuriating and grenades could be rendered trivial by using flak jacket and pushing back a bit

Why not make Clotting Agent 3 the default?

Due to how the mod works, even the slightest bit of waiting can break the TTK of some CQC and long range guns. It's mostly a matter of not allowing players to stack the mod with kevlar, flak jacket or fragile.
Kevlar users would be able to exponentially pad the TTK of some guns, while Fragile would let you get to cover even faster, making the issue more prominent (so same result for opposite reasons)

Edited September 9, 2018 by Nitronik

[swft 356]

Just make CA3 the default and CA2 the only CA mod imo.

EDIT: Obviously Kevlar and Flak Jacket would need to be re-balanced as well.

Edited September 9, 2018 by swft

[Dopefish 248]

Clotting Agent
 Default regen (14.5s total)
12.5s health regen time (80hp/s)
2s health regen delay

 Clotting Agent I (11.5s total)
8s health regen time (64%, 125hp/s)
3.5s health regen delay (175%)

 Clotting Agent II (10.75s total)
6.25s health regen time (50%, 160hp/s)
4.5s health regen delay (225%)

 Clotting Agent III (10s total)
4s health regen time (32%, 250hp/s)
6s health regen delay (300%)


Kevlar
 Kevlar Implants 1 > Kevlar Implants I
-11% damage from bullets
69% of sprinting speed threshold before additional acceleration. (414cm/s)
- Requires slight effort to reach sprinting speed. (2s from threshold to max speed)

 Kevlar Implants 2 > Kevlar Implants II
-22% damage from bullets
46% of sprinting speed threshold before additional acceleration. (276cm/s)
- Requires moderate effort to reach sprinting speed. (3s from threshold to max speed)

 Kevlar Implants 3 > Kevlar Implants III
-33% damage from bullets
23% of sprinting speed threshold before additional acceleration. (138cm/s)
- Requires considerable effort to reach sprinting speed. (4s from threshold to max speed)


Fragile
 Fragile I
+10% marksman speed (302.5cm/s)
+10% sprint speed (660cm/s)
+10% run speed (454.3cm/s)
-5% health (950hp)

 Fragile II
+15% marksman speed (316.25cm/s)
+15% sprint speed (690cm/s)
+15% run speed (474.95cm/s)
-10% health (900hp)

 Fragile III
+20% marksman speed (330cm/s)
+20% sprint speed (720cm/s)
+20% run speed (495.6cm/s)
-15% health (850hp) [Would require HVR damage nerf]


Flak Jacket
 Flak Jacket
-50% explosion damage taken
-1 Grenade count


EDIT:
Remove rank requirements. Edited September 10, 2018 by Dopefish
K1: 15% > 11%, K2: 25% > 22%, K3: 35% > 33%

[vsb 6171]

1 hour ago, Dopefish said:

Clotting Agent
 Default regen (14.5s total)
12.5s health regen time (80hp/s)
2s health regen delay

 Clotting Agent I (11.5s total)
8s health regen time (64%, 125hp/s)
3.5s health regen delay (175%)

 Clotting Agent II (10.75s total)
6.25s health regen time (50%, 160hp/s)
4.5s health regen delay (225%)

 Clotting Agent III (10s total)
4s health regen time (32%, 250hp/s)
6s health regen delay (300%)


Remove rank requirements.

my issue with this is that the upside that makes CA so universally used is the low regen delay this rebalance - while certainly beneficial to other green mods - would likely remove CA from regular use

always supportive of removing/lowering rank requirements tho

[Kewlin 692]

No matter what, don't make CA3 the default, that just fucks everything up totally.

Sure. . . you could make CA2 default. . . but that kinda' messes with every mod pretty fucking bad.

Instead of changing CA or default regen, we could just slightly buff Fragile's movement speed, change Kevlar's health increase to damage reduction, and make Flak Jacket slightly more effective. . . Though don't expect major changes with Kevlar, because Kevlar is basically just inherently contrary to the game.

[Dopefish 248]

12 hours ago, Nitronik said:

Why not make Clotting Agent 3 the default?

Due to how the mod works, even the slightest bit of waiting can break the TTK of some CQC and long range guns. It's mostly a matter of not allowing players to stack the mod with kevlar, flak jacket or fragile.
Kevlar users would be able to exponentially pad the TTK of some guns, while Fragile would let you get to cover even faster, making the issue more prominent (so same result for opposite reasons)

I've added a slight delay to my suggestion to make it harder to regen midfight without cover, so Kevlar users would still be easy targets with their lower movability.

Previously, Fragile would need to stay in cover for 8 seconds to even begin regen while combined with the lower health they need to take cover more often, which negates the whole point of faster movement to begin with. I believe that lower regen delay would make fragile a much more viable mod.

6 hours ago, BXNNXD said:

my issue with this is that the upside that makes CA so universally used is the low regen delay this rebalance - while certainly beneficial to other green mods - would likely remove CA from regular use

This is the biggest issue from what I can tell without properly testing these changes. I've tried to negate it somewhat with better scaling for the CA mods, and it will still be a viable for the long range players. The alternative to make CA more viable in these suggestions would be to raise the default regen time (not delay) further, but it would make it extremely tedious to regen, and wouldn't be good as an default.

I do believe that the trade-off is worth it for the sake of making every other green mod a lot more viable. It's important that those mods aren't restricted to R195+ players only though.

3 hours ago, Kewlin said:

No matter what, don't make CA3 the default, that just fucks everything up totally.

Sure. . . you could make CA2 default. . . but that kinda' messes with every mod pretty fucking bad.

Instead of changing CA or default regen, we could just slightly buff Fragile's movement speed, change Kevlar's health increase to damage reduction, and make Flak Jacket slightly more effective. . . Though don't expect major changes with Kevlar, because Kevlar is basically just inherently contrary to the game.

In the current meta, CA3 is the default. The only difference with my suggestion is that it would let you use any of the other green mods. I've increased the delay slightly to compensate for this.

I've already suggested all three of your ideas for Fragile, Kevlar and Flak Jacket. Though 30% damage reduction isn't much difference than 30% additional health. I suggested it would only reduce bullet damage, meaning grenades would be as effective as for normal players, and you would still take fall damage as normal.

[Kewlin 692]

3 minutes ago, Dopefish said:

I've already suggested all three of your ideas for Fragile, Kevlar and Flak Jacket. Though 30% damage reduction isn't much difference than 30% additional health. I suggested it would only reduce bullet damage, meaning grenades would be as effective as for normal players, and you would still take fall damage as normal.

Yes, but if you make CA3 default then you get into essentially mixing mods, and it becomes. . . awkward. . .

Also, you're suggestion for base regen to be 2s delay with 80hp/s is insane, that would have extreme and unpredictable effects on overdamage requirements because an additional 20hp/s is worth WELL more than  an additional 0.4s on your healing delay TBH.

Also, the reason that damage reduction is better than more health is that you then regen faster. Fall damage I can see keeping the same, but keeping nade damage would make Kevlar honestly useless because you already have  harder time fighting nades because you can't dodge them as easily, plus. . . it's not an issue normally that you still have increased health versus nades. . . so. . . why would it suddenly be worse with damage reduction? (Also, you can't just convert from 30% bonus health straight to 30% damage reduction, 30% damage reduction is more equivalent to 43% extra health, you'd want more like 23% damage reduction.)

If it were up to me I'd test decreasing the base recovery delay by 2-4 seconds and then reducing the positive effects of CA 1-3 to even off to effectively the same rates on CA3, making a table something like this:

Health Regen Rates:
 
Default, no mod: 250 HP/second       (1000 HP/4 seconds, 100% regen rate)
Clotting Agent I: 142.8 HP/second         (1000 HP/7 seconds, 57% regen rate)
Clotting Agent II: 100 HP/second           (1000 HP/10 seconds, 40% regen rate)
Clotting Agent III: 62.5 HP/second         (1000 HP/16 seconds, 25% regen rate)
 
Health Regen Delays:
 
Default, no mod: 5 seconds
Clotting Agent I: 4 seconds
Clotting Agent II: 3.5 seconds
Clotting Agent III: 1.6 seconds

Health Regen Total Times (from roughly 0 HP):

Default, no mod: 9 seconds
Clotting Agent I: 11 seconds
Clotting Agent II: 13.5 seconds
Clotting Agent III: 17.6 seconds

(Credit to Talla on the old forums for the basis of my numbers: https://forums-old.gamersfirst.com/topic/401054-game-balance-discussion-clotting-agent/ , basic premise of this idea courtesy of a discussion with Tobii.)

[Dopefish 248]

4 hours ago, Kewlin said:

Yes, but if you make CA3 default then you get into essentially mixing mods, and it becomes. . . awkward. . .

Also, you're suggestion for base regen to be 2s delay with 80hp/s is insane, that would have extreme and unpredictable effects on overdamage requirements because an additional 20hp/s is worth WELL more than  an additional 0.4s on your healing delay TBH.

Awkward, as in you don't know how it would affect the gameplay? Then it wouldn't really hurt to just add it to the testing districts just to see how it plays out?

Current CA3 is 62.5hp/s after 1.6s delay, which means it will heal 25hp within the 0.4s extra I suggest to add to its delay. It will have healed 87.5hp after 3 seconds, while my suggestion would only have healed 80hp in the same time. At 4 seconds, original CA3 would've healed 150hp, while my suggestion would start to overtake it with 160hp at that same time. Doesn't seem as insane anymore, does it?

I initially had alot more conservative suggestions that were closer to how things are now, (just because bigger changes are less likely to happen), but after thinking about it I'd rather suggest what I think would be the best for the game instead of trying to be restricted to how it is now. I don't know exactly how these changes would play together, but I'd like to have them tested and actually see them in action. I do attempt to think about them from every scenario, but I don't pretend to know the exact outcome of it all.
 

5 hours ago, Kewlin said:

Also, the reason that damage reduction is better than more health is that you then regen faster. Fall damage I can see keeping the same, but keeping nade damage would make Kevlar honestly useless because you already have  harder time fighting nades because you can't dodge them as easily, plus. . . it's not an issue normally that you still have increased health versus nades. . . so. . . why would it suddenly be worse with damage reduction? (Also, you can't just convert from 30% bonus health straight to 30% damage reduction, 30% damage reduction is more equivalent to 43% extra health, you'd want more like 23% damage reduction.)

It's not as simple as doing direct conversion, but it's closer to estimate the amount of bullets needed to kill with each weapon. I don't have enough time right now to do the math, but would you be kind and elaborate why you think 23% damage reduction would be more similar to 1300hp?

Reason why I restricted my suggestion to bullet damage reduction only (instead of any kind of damage), is that the movement is improved, it have faster regen, it have more damage reduction, it shouldn't invade on Flak Jackets or Happy Landings territory, and it would just be more logical. So explosive damage would be one of its weaknesses, aswell as it shouldn't gain benefits that's supposed to be gained from other mods instead.

[Dopefish 248]

5 hours ago, Dopefish said:

 It's not as simple as doing direct conversion, but it's closer to estimate the amount of bullets needed to kill with each weapon. I don't have enough time right now to do the math, but would you be kind and elaborate why you think 23% damage reduction would be more similar to 1300hp?

@Kewlin Alright, I did the math, and you're entirely correct. 23% damage reduction is very close to the actual comparable damage scale for 30% additional health. I was mainly calculating the amount of bullets, and didn't account for overdamage. That's why discussion is good since it can bring new perspectives or potential issues.

I've now updated my suggestion with this in mind, and I think it makes it a bit more balanced but still scale good:
K1: 15% > 11%
K2: 25% > 22%
K3: 35% > 33%

[Kewlin 692]

7 hours ago, Dopefish said:

~snip~

I suppose you're correct about the 0.4s delay vs 17.5hp/s thing, still, I don't think one is worse than the other, so I'd rather stay with what we currently have and doesn't have any issues. I don't find current matches based around CA3 to be inherently broken, so I don't see what about it needs fixing TBH.
 

32 minutes ago, Dopefish said:

@Kewlin Alright, I did the math, and you're entirely correct. 23% damage reduction is very close to the actual comparable damage scale for 30% additional health. I was mainly calculating the amount of bullets, and didn't account for overdamage. That's why discussion is good since it can bring new perspectives or potential issues.

I've now updated my suggestion with this in mind, and I think it makes it a bit more balanced but still scale good:
K1: 15% > 11%
K2: 25% > 22%
K3: 35% > 33%

For future reference, in case you didn't figure it out, if 'x' is the percent damage reduction the "effective health bonus percent" is x / (1 - x).

Note that with your numbers Kev3 still has effectively 49% bonus health and 49% more healing per second. Some examples of the effects of this, combined with your proposed default regen, for perspective are:

• Be safe from an HVR shot in 3.74s.
• Effectively regen 1000hp (including damage reduction as "bonus HP") in 8.375s.
• This is already somewhat the case, but large damage reduction (or health bonuses) on average, extremely random effects on enemy guns, which is an undesirable. Basically the TTK increase of Kev3 on most guns would range roughly from 50% to 75%, and that's a deviation of roughly 12.5% TTK increase. On top of a 62.5% TTK increase being ridiculous, such a large deviation adds a bizarre element of game knowledge required in choosing a gun that is most effective against a particular level of Kevlar based on how it arbitrarily effects the TTK of a gun. Some examples of TTK increase for Kev3 include:
  • 0% on HVR.
  • 50% on Scout.
  • 50% on ACES SMG.
  • 60% on N-TEC 5.
  • 76% on Ursus.
  • 50% on ALIG.
  • 66.7% on N-ISSR-B.
  • 75% on PMG.
  • 60% on FBW.
  • 50% on .45 AP.
• Here's a list of the TTK increases on the same guns with Kev2, to give a rough idea:
  • 0% on HVR.
  • 50% on Scout.
  • 28% on ACES SMG.
  • 20% on N-TEC 5.
  • 51% on Ursus.
  • 50% on ALIG.
  • 33% on the N-ISSR-B
  • 50% on PMG.
  • 40% on the FBW
  • 25% on .45 AP.

Also, I still really don't get the need to reverse CA.

[Dopefish 248]

22 hours ago, Kewlin said:

I suppose you're correct about the 0.4s delay vs 17.5hp/s thing, still, I don't think one is worse than the other, so I'd rather stay with what we currently have and doesn't have any issues. I don't find current matches based around CA3 to be inherently broken, so I don't see what about it needs fixing TBH.

We do have issues with how things are currently, as almost nobody is using anything other than CA3, while it's a major upgrade from unmodded players, aswell as taking 15.2s to be able to survive the 2nd shot from a HVR. Matches where everyone are using CA3 gives everyone the same conditions, but that case isn't the same for new players that can't equip it. Mods shouldn't make you stronger than unmodded players, but rather focus you in a specific niche. I think we both agree that having 8s as default regen is what's ridiculous here.

The gameplay works well and is enjoyable with low regen delay, hence why I think that should be the default as to make people's first impression be a better one, while I feel it would also benefit from having lower total regen time. This would of course not work with the current Clotting Agents, hence why I suggest reversing their benefits, as they can still be useful, instead of removing a mod from the game.

Most importantly, it would make all the other green mods more viable, and make for an more interesting meta.

22 hours ago, Kewlin said:

Note that with your numbers Kev3 still has effectively 49% bonus health and 49% more healing per second. Some examples of the effects of this, combined with your proposed default regen, for perspective are:

• Be safe from an HVR shot in 3.74s.
• Effectively regen 1000hp (including damage reduction as "bonus HP") in 8.375s.
• This is already somewhat the case, but large damage reduction (or health bonuses) on average, extremely random effects on enemy guns, which is an undesirable. Basically the TTK increase of Kev3 on most guns would range roughly from 50% to 75%, and that's a deviation of roughly 12.5% TTK increase. On top of a 62.5% TTK increase being ridiculous, such a large deviation adds a bizarre element of game knowledge required in choosing a gun that is most effective against a particular level of Kevlar based on how it arbitrarily effects the TTK of a gun.

- 3.74s before being able to survive the second shot from the HVR, enough to shoot twice more with the HVR.
- It would take 9.12s (incl. the regen delay) to fully regen one HVR hit, enough to shoot five more times with the HVR.
- There's only a few weapons where the effect is extra profound, and those are mainly the same ones as they are with the current Kevlar Implants 3. 33% bullet damage reduction isn't meant to be the same as 1300hp, and is intentionally meant to be an improvement, to make the mod both scale better and making it more viable.

Here's an reference for how it would affect some of the weapons:
HVR: 2 > 2 shots (1.75s > 1.75s TTK) +0s
ACES: 15 > 22 shots (0.63s > 0.945s TTK) +0.315s
Euryale: 10 > 15 shots (0.59s > 0.91s TTK) +0.32s
Manic: 9 > 13 shots (0.64s > 0.96s TTK) +0.32s
ALIG: 5 > 7 shots (0.72s > 1.08s TTK) +0.36s
OCA: 8 > 12 shots (0.64s > 1.012s TTK) +0.372s
ATAC: 8 > 12 shots (0.7s > 1.1s TTK) +0.4s
Obeya: 5 > 7 shots (0.84s > 1.26s TTK) +0.42s
Curse: 10 > 15 shots (0.77s > 1.19s TTK) +0.42s
N-TEC 5: 6 > 9 shots (0.7s > 1.12s TTK) +0.42s
STAR: 6 > 9 shots (0.75s > 1.2s TTK) +0.45s
CAP40: 7 > 11 shots (0.7s > 1.16s TTK) +0.46s
Raptor: 7 > 11 shots (0.75s > 1.25 TTK) +0.5s
PMG: 5 > 8 shots (0.7s > 1.225s TTK) +0.525s
Ursus: 5 > 8 shots (0.704s > 1.232s TTK) +0.532s
N-ISSR-B: 4 > 6 shots (0.9s > 1.5s TTK) +0.6s
Scout: 2 > 3 shots (1.75s > 3.5s TTK) +1.75s

.45 AP: 5 > 7 shots (0.8s > 1.2s TTK) +0.4s
ACT44: 4 > 5 shots (1.5s > 2s) +0.5s
FBW: 6 > 9 shots (1.0s > 1.6s TTK) +0.6s
RSA: 3 > 5 shots (1.7s > 3.4s TTK) +1.7s


Again, keep in mind that with my suggestion, the Kevlar user would be as vulnerable to explosive damage as someone who isn't using Kevlar. Edited September 11, 2018 by Dopefish

[Kewlin 692]

1 minute ago, Dopefish said:

We do have issues with how things are currently, as almost nobody is using anything other than CA3, while it's a major upgrade from unmodded players, aswell as taking 15.2s to be able to survive the 2nd shot from a HVR. Matches where everyone are using CA3 gives everyone the same conditions, but that case isn't the same for new players that can't equip it. Mods shouldn't make you stronger than unmodded players, but rather focus you in a specific niche. I think we both agree that having 8s as default regen is what's ridiculous here.

The gameplay works well and is enjoyable with low regen delay, hence why I think that should be the default as to make people's first impression be a better one, while I feel it would also benefit from having lower total regen time. This would of course not work with the current Clotting Agents, hence why I suggest reversing their benefits, as they can still be useful, instead of removing a mod from the game.

You just spent two paragraphs to explain exactly what I said, thanks.

I was saying that there is no issue with CA3 gameplay, so I don't see a reason to change it to 2s and 80hp/s, not that default regen shouldn't be changed, albeit, I think default regen should be changed to something more like CA2. Changing default regen to 2s and 80hp/s slows down gameplay for no apparent reason, as that's slower than current CA3, and I still think the concept of CA as a choice is good, and that you should be able to choose faster regen start and slower regen as opposed to Flak, Kev, or Fragile.

Hence my suggestion of a default delay between 4 and 6 seconds.

 

8 minutes ago, Dopefish said:

~snip on Kevlar~

I'd say a difference common difference of 25% TTK increase is pretty fucking profound, lol. As I've said before, and will probably say again, Kevlar basically doesn't belong in APB, and as such will always work better in the game when its effects are smaller than large.

Not only is this because APB should stay a relatively fast paced game, and Kev fucks that up, but because it unnecessarily fucks with guns differently. A good example of this is that your proposed version of Kev 2 makes the .45 a drastically better counter-weapon than the FBW, with the FBW getting a 15% more increased TTK than the .45. The reality of the way increased health or damage resistance works is just that it is an unreliable change and as such is, quite honestly, bad for gameplay. Even take the fact that the OCA and PMG have a 163% and 175% TTK on your Kev3 respectively, the fact that it so arbitrarily effects these two guns to such a large extent, which both should be just as valid in this circumstance, is absurd.

Kev 3 is just too much of a wildcard and its effects should be kept to the same magnitude they currently are, and it's downsides should be fixed and reduced instead of increasing its upsides.

[Dopefish 248]

18 hours ago, Kewlin said:

I was saying that there is no issue with CA3 gameplay, so I don't see a reason to change it to 2s and 80hp/s, not that default regen shouldn't be changed, albeit, I think default regen should be changed to something more like CA2. Changing default regen to 2s and 80hp/s slows down gameplay for no apparent reason, as that's slower than current CA3, and I still think the concept of CA as a choice is good, and that you should be able to choose faster regen start and slower regen as opposed to Flak, Kev, or Fragile.

Hence my suggestion of a default delay between 4 and 6 seconds.

The problem with 1.6s is that it let's you regen midfight (same reason why it was nerfed in the first place) without even having to use cover, which pretty much gives you the benefit of additional health during the fight. 2s would make sure that regen only kicks in when either the opponent stopped engaging or when you use cover properly, and it also balances it out with the faster regen speed, which was an issue when being tagged by HVR.

It doesn't matter if you reduce the default regen delay, as it will not be comparable to the additional survival you get from the regen of CA3, while all the other mods will still seem like they have both their own downsides, and the downside of not having CA3. You should also consider that CA1 and CA2 should be viable.

Being able to take cover uninterrupted for more than 4 seconds is the niche here, and avoiding to get hit for 1.6s is way more common. Mods shouldn't be upgrades, but rather be something that makes you focus on your niche at the cost of something else.
 

18 hours ago, Kewlin said:

Kevlar basically doesn't belong in APB, and as such will always work better in the game when its effects are smaller than large.

Not only is this because APB should stay a relatively fast paced game, and Kev fucks that up, but because it unnecessarily fucks with guns differently. A good example of this is that your proposed version of Kev 2 makes the .45 a drastically better counter-weapon than the FBW, with the FBW getting a 15% more increased TTK than the .45. The reality of the way increased health or damage resistance works is just that it is an unreliable change and as such is, quite honestly, bad for gameplay. Even take the fact that the OCA and PMG have a 163% and 175% TTK on your Kev3 respectively, the fact that it so arbitrarily effects these two guns to such a large extent, which both should be just as valid in this circumstance, is absurd.

So you basically don't want Kevlar to be an viable mod in APB since you don't think it belong in the game? This game has a very low TTK (especially with the creep caused by every new weapon being introduced), so any benefit is still less than a split second already. If it's not able to increase the amount of bullets needed to kill you, it won't change how fast you get killed anyway, so it would be utterly useless. 

It mainly slows down the gameplay for whoever is using it, and I think variety is better than every match being exactly the same.

The change isn't unreliable just because there's a difference between weapons. It's like saying that you can't play the game because every weapon is different. The resulting numbers are always the same, so it would just be a matter to getting used to it, and it would normally go pretty quickly once you're actually fighting a Kevlar user. To make it easier for initial expectations, you can just assume that Kevlar 1 adds one extra bullet to kill, Kevlar 2 makes that two, and Kevlar 3 would be three. Alternatively that Kevlar 3 requires 50% extra bullets (rounded down), and it takes ~0.42s (+/- 0.1s) extra time to kill someone.

I'm also not sure having to hit 6 out of 7 bullets with the 45 AP, is such big benefit over the FBW with Kevlar 2.

But since you're clearly set against Kevlar already, what's your thoughts on the Fragile or Flak Jacket changes instead?

[Kewlin 692]

1 hour ago, Dopefish said:

The problem with 1.6s is that it let's you regen midfight (same reason why it was nerfed in the first place) without even having to use cover, which pretty much gives you the benefit of additional health during the fight. 2s would make sure that regen only kicks in when either the opponent stopped engaging or when you use cover properly, and it also balances it out with the faster regen speed, which was an issue when being tagged by HVR.

Huh, it's almost as if there's a tradeoff where you can regen more easily in the middle of a fight but you're fucked if you get hit by a something high damage like an HVR or conc? It can't be that that was purposeful, can it?

Like I said, sure, whatever, make the default regen whatever the fuck you want, just let me also have a mod that gives me the current CA3 stats. Your suggestion on default regen speed is purposefully a sidegrade from CA3, and there's no reason with what you're saying to not also let people use current CA3 stats.
 

2 hours ago, Dopefish said:

It doesn't matter if you reduce the default regen delay, as it will not be comparable to the additional survival you get from the regen of CA3, while all the other mods will still seem like they have both their own downsides, and the downside of not having CA3. You should also consider that CA1 and CA2 should be viable.

CA2 is currently viable, in fact at least as good as CA3 IMO, and making CA1 viable by making it do the exact opposite of what it currently does is not really making it viable, lol.

Honestly though, if you really think that CA3 is as necessary in the current meta as you seem to be saying, your suggestion would make all levels of CA not viable.

 

2 hours ago, Dopefish said:

So you basically don't want Kevlar to be an viable mod in APB since you don't think it belong in the game?

If I didn't want Kevlar to be viable in APB I would have said I don't want Kevlar to be viable in APB. Can you find a place where I said that? No? Then stop putting words in my mouth.

If I didn't want Kevlar to be used I would have proposed it be removed.

 

2 hours ago, Dopefish said:

This game has a very low TTK (especially with the creep caused by every new weapon being introduced)

APB doesn't have a low TTK.

 

2 hours ago, Dopefish said:

so any benefit is still less than a split second already.

Guess what else takes a split second? Aiming, reacting, getting behind cover. A split second is the difference between life and death in so many scenarios in APB. How many times have you had the last shot you needed for a kill play its audio and visual effects on your screen but your computer was just a few milliseconds behind the server so you died?

A tenth of a second is a huge difference in TTK in APB, and you're proposing a mod that increases TKK on some guns by over half a second, or 75%. That means someone can almost put enough bullets into you to kill a normal character and you'll still have enough time to react and kill them without even taking cover. That is entirely contrary to an even remotely skilled game and definitely against the gameplay of APB.

 

2 hours ago, Dopefish said:

If it's not able to increase the amount of bullets needed to kill you, it won't change how fast you get killed anyway, so it would be utterly useless.

First off, that's not true because you can take damage from other things, E.G. falling, that are mitigated by the current Kevlar 3. Second, most guns in APB do under 300 damage, so Kevlar 3 currently affects the TTK of almost every gun in APB.
 

2 hours ago, Dopefish said:

It mainly slows down the gameplay for whoever is using it, and I think variety is better than every match being exactly the same.

Variety is great, but making APB into World of Tanks isn't.

 

2 hours ago, Dopefish said:

The change isn't unreliable just because there's a difference between weapons. It's like saying that you can't play the game because every weapon is different. The resulting numbers are always the same, so it would just be a matter to getting used to it, and it would normally go pretty quickly once you're actually fighting a Kevlar user.

No, it's a stupid change because it's arbitrary in its effect to every gun.

You can't tell me that you actually think it's alright for a mod to have a 25% difference in effect on guns entirely not by design, but by how it arbitrarily effects guns with different damages.

And it's not like saying you can't play the game because every weapon is different, because every weapon is different on purpose, and you know that, and saying otherwise is disingenuous and stupid.

And having to "get used to" not using certain guns against Kevlar because certain ones just arbitrarily, not for balance reasons but essentially because of random chance, don't function as well against it, isn't something you should have to get used to.

 

2 hours ago, Dopefish said:

To make it easier for initial expectations, you can just assume that Kevlar 1 adds one extra bullet to kill, Kevlar 2 makes that two, and Kevlar 3 would be three. Alternatively that Kevlar 3 requires 50% extra bullets (rounded down), and it takes ~0.42s (+/- 0.1s) extra time to kill someone.

What are you even saying here? You know what, don't answer.

 

2 hours ago, Dopefish said:

I'm also not sure having to hit 6 out of 7 bullets with the 45 AP, is such big benefit over the FBW with Kevlar 2.

When there's a difference of 0.4s, yeah, that's kinda' a pretty fucking big benefit: that's half the normal TTK of the .45 AP.

With 0.4s you have time to carefully aim each of you 6 shots and still probably end up faster than the FBW.

 

2 hours ago, Dopefish said:

But since you're clearly set against Kevlar already, what's your thoughts on the Fragile or Flak Jacket changes instead?

I never said that, in fact what I did say very specifically was that they should rework the downsides of Kev instead of increasing its benefits, but you know, that would require you reading what I said instead of just concentrating on misreading one or two sentences.

[Dopefish 248]

1 hour ago, Kewlin said:

Stuff

I see that you've run out of constructive things to say and are only into forum bickering now. If I misunderstood you, that's my fault, but furthering this line of conversation will only derail the topic.

[Kewlin 692]

36 minutes ago, Dopefish said:

2 hours ago, Kewlin said:

Stuff

I see that you've run out of constructive things to say and are only into forum bickering now. If I misunderstood you, that's my fault, but furthering this line of conversation will only derail the topic.

I wasn't aware that just because I swore a few times everything I said was invalid, nor was I aware that talking literally about the topic of the thread was off topic. My bad.

I said a lot that was constructive, just because I bashed you a few times doesn't mean everything else I said isn't legitimate criticism, but hey, I'm cool ending it here too.

[Nitronik 348]

Not really nice to see the whole thread hijacked and the suggestion ignored.