A Message to Little Orbit and the APB Community

[SpeedyCat 106]

I can agree to 100% for the OBIR Part, thanks to roll that out for non OBIR Players ;-)

On 9/16/2018 at 7:33 AM, Tenginima said:

Basically the road with all the changes will change guns for the worst in a lot of areas. For instance the change to IR3 was a good change for Assault Rifles, as I made them more specialized in long range encounters. but worse in close range, which is how mods should work, you trade one thing for another. The issue is the fact that the IR3 nerf was simply to hard on some guns, mostly the OBIR. The OBIR is fascinating cause it is better then the Obeya Rifle in the sense that it has a higher skill cap, but more potent usage, it's more consistent even at max burst rate. However, the IR3 change has a very bad consequence for the OBIR. Basically the Obeya Rifle, OSCAR etc those rifles didn't go to change with the nerf, as for instance with the Obeya rifle you would not get a good use out of IR3 if you max fireated it, as it would bloom to much, so while technically you can't shot as fast, the gun itself in how it plays is barely affected, as you simply shoot at a more consistent firerate. The same is for the OSCAR, but for the OBIR, the story is a lot more different. 

You see, with the OBIR you kinda had to rely on IR3 to really maximize it's efficiency, as while it is competitive without it, IR3 really pushed it into more or less what it should've been. the Problem is though that the current application of IR3 on an OBIR, will severely limit it's ability to perform, as the much slower fire-rate is not even near as much of a fair trade-of for the extra 7.5m. As putting IR3 on the gun now just gimps it so hard.

The OBIR has had an interesting history since it was actually nerfed way back when, when they reduced the fire-rate of the gun, now with the IR3 change, it is basically pissing on the corpse of IR3 OBIRS.

Now the OBIR is difficult in this whole sea of changes as it needs the extra range, but also how do you balance that with IR3? Well you see I think that LO should do Mod specific maluses and bonuses, like Cooling Jacket has for Shotguns. What I am suggesting is that just like CJ, IR should have specific weapon role downgrades and upgrades. For instance, on Assault rifles IR should make them fire slower, as they become more like dedicated long range Assault Rifles rather then Assault Rifles. While on Rifles it should only add a maximum Bloom increase, as in with the Obeya Rifle, there was a reason to use IR3 over CJ3 and wise-versa. Because CJ3 was viable, as it made the Obeya a monster while gimping its range a little, and while IR3 did the opposite. And just like Heavy Barrel is also viable on Obeya Rifles as it can be used to more or less make them into more lower damage laser cannons.

On the OBIR however it's a bit more difficult. The only viable red mod on the OBIR is literally IR 1,2 and 3. As CJ won't affect the interval between bursts, only speed up the bullets in the burst itself, and HB will simply gimp it as the OBIR already have practically perfect accuracy. So that leaves us with IR3, and sadly, G1 did a lot of game balancing around mods, it's very apparent in some guns, like 3PS3 for HVR's etc. 

The issue to why this gun is so hard to balance is because of one thing, and that is the separate discussion of Mods in APB being side grades rather then arguable upgrades. Both devs and players alike agree that mods should be side-grades rather then upgrades, but the reality of almost everything is that some things WILL benefit more from certain things compared to others. Such as HS3 for snipers etc. But sadly it is an impossible task to make all mods side-grades rather then upgrades, without completely destroying certain guns and mods,

So should some mods be arguable upgrades? Yes, and is that ok? Yes. Because you see, as long as they are Better at One specific thing but worst at another, it is ok. Ofc take this with a grain of salt, as certain upgrades are simply to big to ignore. So the issue is more about how big is that advantage rather then if it is an advantage. Cause again, HS3 will ALWAYS be better on Obeya Rifles and OBIRS rather then on OCA's and Shotguns. 

So what am I suggesting with the OBIR? Remove the 18% firerate for IR3 on the OBIR, and make Cooling Jacket actually have an effect on burst Rifles. HOWEVER, many people don't know this, but IR3 WILL make a large difference on the last shot on the OBIR, thus making it worse for tight corner fighting. Which is enough of an sidegrade. CJ3 already have a side-grade, and that is that if they implement it so that it affects burst interval, then the gun will be even harder to use. Cause you see currently, it's very hard to fully track someone while shooting them with and OBIR at maximum fire-rate. CJ3 would just add to this, so while it technically would not make it worse, simply fire faster, it would increase the skill gap of the gun, because if you want to make efficient usage of that fire-rate, you must be a very good player. Which in itself is a significant side-grade.

So LO, don't change the effective range on the Assault rifles, and don't change the range of Rifles, as they simply are fine where they are range wise. The issue is more about mods not being specific in side-grades for specific weapon Roles

 

[TackoGirl 130]

Stupid mod change 

[Tenginima 74]

15 hours ago, Lign said:

On 9/16/2018 at 5:58 PM, Tenginima said:

In hindsight, my points about the OBIR was a little bit iffy, as I was well aware of LO's intended range buffs. And while I do think they were somewhat fine were they were, changing the rifle range and making so that CJ affects Rifles will make it an actually choice between IR3 Obir and CJ3 Obir.

And bout the OCA and NTEC Situation. In what situation will  the OCA lose to an NTEC? If both players are equally skilled? 

Tell it to these russian jumpshotters

You still haven't given just something so small like an example. Just saying "Jumpshooting" is not enough of an argument.

[Tenginima 74]

7 hours ago, Genobee said:

You've got a very interesting view on the balance changes. I'll give you that. 

That said I'm split on what I think about it. Some of it makes a lot of sense then out of nowhere you'll jump to saying things like the 'Ursus' is a straight upgrade to the N-TEC. Whereas what I typically hear is that the N-TEC is a more reliable choice. In-fact I rarely see anyone utilizing it that has it anymore. The N-TEC has remained the go to. If your point was to say that it's viewed as being better simply due to rarity, then it wasn't conveyed very well. 

Moving on to what you said about the N-TEC's widespread usage: it isn't just free players utilizing it almost exclusively. A lot of players that own multiple guns find themselves moving back to the N-TEC as their main choice. There's a reason for it. It slams the other guns into the ground then laughs at them. It's a total beast when compared to every other AR. Some come close, yes, but they just can't match it. Cost or difficulty of obtaining things just doesn't factor in with some of the really high skill folks. They've been around long enough to have gotten multiple other options for free or outright bought them. They choose the gun because it is the best.

Your observations about modability and versatility I have to agree on. It ends up being a jack of all trades with very little in terms of downsides. 

Anyways thanks for posting this. Kinda feel like LO isn't getting enough feedback. More discussions on it the better I say. 

Firstly I want to say thank you very much for the added constructive feedback, as you did point out some good counter arguments that I did not fully consider and got me thinking. 

(Red text is the first response, purple second, they're organized in the paragraphs) Essentially why I took up the Ursus is that while it does trade some small advantages from the stock NTEC in order to become more of a Long Range Assault Rifle Hybrid. It simply is not trading enough Bonuses to count as a sidegrade or as a worse gun. Essentially, the Ursus, while being a more Long Range alternative to the NTEC, in terms of assault rifles, it plays more like a mix between like the Obeya Rifle and NTEC, essentially think of it as a fully automatic Obeya Rifle, without the top 10 extra meters. Basically, it retains many of the NTEC's strengths, while grabbing some from the Obeya Rifle aswell, but as a tradeoff, it has a higher skill ceiling, as it is more unforgiving then the NTEC to miss with and miss-fire with. Basically, if you miss with the Ursus, it's more of a big deal because of the slower fire-rate, and the higher importance of each bullet, as each bullet carries more punch then a stock NTEC. 

Well you see, that's one of the things that I forgot to mention about the NTEC's wider spread usage, actually 2 things, and both of them can be explained by the Psychological effect of having a gun that everyone is talking about, being constantly in the floodlights, and the effect of Consistency.

I will first go over the most objective fact that is not that much based around Psychology and more around the game and its values, as that is more concrete and more relevant, which is the Consistency of the gun.

Basically, the NTEC like I mentioned will always deliver on what it is promised to do, be able to always deal with every situation decently from 0 - 50m (60m if you have IR3). Essentially, all people know what the NTEC can do and what it will do, it's the most fundamental example of what and Assault Rifle is, as gun that can fill out many roles but not master them. For instance, if you use an NTEC, you will know that when you shot people, it has a high forgiveness rate, as if you miss one shot it's very rarely a end of your life, and it's also very accurate, modifiable etc. Thus creating a gun that is good at everything, thus why it is used by many Pro's. What you need to understand though, is that the same principle can be applied to the FBW, as it is basically the NTEC of secondaries. As it does exactly what a secondary is supposed to do, and it does it with consistency. 

Basically, the better players choose the NTEC over other guns, not because it is statistically superior or the best gun, but because it is Reliable, It is just like the FBW, as it can always be used as a safeguard if you are uncertain, lazy or simply just want to make your life easier. As again, it will provide a very basic and very consistent gamestyle. 

But just like the FBW is the NTEC of Secondaries, so is the 45. Thunder and RFP the Ursuse's of secondaries. And what do both the FBW and NTEC have in common? Reliability, and just as that, they will be beaten by higher Skill Gap guns, and more specified weapons in specific situations. The Thunder, RFP and especially 45. is way better then the FBW, but they leave less room for error, thus if you fail, you will most likely die, again, both the NTEC and FBW will protect, even good players more from human mistakes, then  the mentioned guns (Ursus, Thunder, RFP and 45.)

Now the Psychological effect is a lot more interesting, as it caters to the mob mentality of APB. You see, humans are pack animals, and as we group together we learn from each-other, and when more and more people share one of the same ideas that idea will grow, and sometimes grow into a form of reality. Take religion for example, there is no proof of a god, but back in the day when people could not explain Poxes, and bad harvest's, it had to be blamed on the supernatural, as people simply did not understand the root of the cause.

You see, as more and more people talk about the NTEC being OP, more and more people use it, and as such more and more people get killed by the NTEC, and thus fueling more and more of the NTEC bandwagon, as people get more and more convinced, that the only way of fighting an NTEC, is by using another NTEC, as that is what all the other people are already doing. Thus creating a fight fire with fire situation.
 

[CookiePuss 5379]

4 hours ago, Tenginima said:

Now the Psychological effect is a lot more interesting, as it caters to the mob mentality of APB. You see, humans are pack animals, and as we group together we learn from each-other, and when more and more people share one of the same ideas that idea will grow, and sometimes grow into a form of reality. Take religion for example, there is no proof of a god, but back in the day when people could not explain Poxes, and bad harvest's, it had to be blamed on the supernatural, as people simply did not understand the root of the cause

Unreal... plz, just stop.

[Revoluzzer 274]

On 9/16/2018 at 10:59 PM, Sergsininia said:

The question is imo about bringing in non-meta guns back into the pool, not nerfing meta weapons.

"Meta weapons" have become the best choice because they are too powerful compared to everything else. Not because everything else is too weak. You wouldn't try to fix a dozen things to accommodate one that is different, when you could simply fix the one thing.
Additionally buffing a lot of guns would mean making a lot of weapons more similar, because it's otherwise nigh impossible to get them on the same level. And on top of that you'd introduce some serious TTK-creep lowering the average across the board, which breaks the way the districts are laid out.

[Tenginima 74]

18 hours ago, CookiePuss said:

22 hours ago, Tenginima said:

Now the Psychological effect is a lot more interesting, as it caters to the mob mentality of APB. You see, humans are pack animals, and as we group together we learn from each-other, and when more and more people share one of the same ideas that idea will grow, and sometimes grow into a form of reality. Take religion for example, there is no proof of a god, but back in the day when people could not explain Poxes, and bad harvest's, it had to be blamed on the supernatural, as people simply did not understand the root of the cause

Unreal... plz, just stop.

I mentioned that it was up to debate, but I would like to hear your reasoning to why this is unreal.

7 hours ago, Revoluzzer said:

"Meta weapons" have become the best choice because they are too powerful compared to everything else. Not because everything else is too weak. You wouldn't try to fix a dozen things to accommodate one that is different, when you could simply fix the one thing.
Additionally buffing a lot of guns would mean making a lot of weapons more similar, because it's otherwise nigh impossible to get them on the same level. And on top of that you'd introduce some serious TTK-creep lowering the average across the board, which breaks the way the districts are laid out.

Simply just "fixing" one thing is however the Lazy approach. As sure, it is the most simple, and logically the easiest and quickest solution, but is it the best? Certainly not. Just because a large amount of people believe something is the way it is, doesn't make it true.

And while you're at it, why is the NTEC overpowered my friend, I would like to hear what you have to say. As in, give a point by point system to whereas you make clear examples to why the NTEC is op.