Infinito 100 Posted September 21, 2020 (edited) Quote Summary: Stabba pros: Enemy gets put out of the mission a few seconds longer. Combine with PERC for easy stunning. Easy stun when player fell down and lost stamina. More mission rewards Stabba cons: More TTS in comparison to Lethal TTK Only preset mods available, cannot use your own mods If stunned, cannot be stunned again for a while If arrested, player can be rescued. If not arrested, enemy can recover Almost useless when playing with a random team or as single LTL user in the group. Low ammo for most LTL weapons Requires you to approach the enemy making you vurnerable. Suggestions: Allow custom modding or/and Reduce the TTS to be closer to the TTK of lethal. or/and Make LTL more accurate while running New weapon: LTL Sniper to promote LTL Teamplay. 2 shots to stun / similar to the HVR. It wouldn't be too interesting to get arrests yourself, but would definitely make LTL teamplay more viable. Lethal weapons are better almost in any situation when comparing them with LTL weapons, the reasoning for this is slightly understandable. Obviously they have been made slightly harder to play due to the arrest timer. However with the limited amount of people playing it, it explains that the weapon is not the right pick if you want to win. When facing someone 1 vs 1, you can often outplay your enemy by playing smart. However, in a full-frontal fight with both having the same chances and same cover and all shots hitting, Lethal will always win. When fighting in missions, you'll often find another enemy being there to help out. This means you have to stun two people and avoid getting shot meanwhile. While stunning the second person, the first person probably has the time to escape already and cannot be stunned again. In order to balance this, it would already require your team mate to also play LTL to help spread the stamina damage. Here's a small list of the current stock LTL Weapons: Stabba CCG: Gets outplayed by literally any CQC and midrange weapon. The TTK on lethal weapons is far shorter than the TTS. -> Could use a small buff 6 or 7 shots to stun instead of 8. Time to stun: 1.05s | OCA TTK: 0.7s | Joker SR15: 0.75s | Star: 0.75s Stabba TG-8: Feels slow and inaccurate if you use it while moving. -> Could use a little extra ammo per magazine. Time to stun: 1s | FBW: 1s | PDW: 0.84s Stabba NL9: Gets outplayed by any CQC weapon. Requires you to land 3 perfect shots on the enemy with (close to) zero spread. Time to stun:1.56s | JG-840: 0.84s | CSG: 0.7s -> Could use 2 shots to stun (again) or a little spread to make it easier to hit people with it. Stabba PIG I haven't had a chance to test it yet since the nerf so I don't have any opinion on this yet. Stabba PFTG (OPGL-CD) In my opinion doesn't require any buff. This weapon is super powerful for clearing out areas. Edited September 21, 2020 by Infinito 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cyral 25 Posted September 22, 2020 Sad thing is LTL has been Nerfed to the point as a solo enforcer character you are being owned by the criminals, LO has forced squad's of LTL into existence now so we can get a decent cash grab. My prediction is this.... When the streamers get "owned" by the LTL-MOB they will go to complaining again how difficult their sessions are and LO will remove LTL altogether... 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LilyRain 671 Posted September 22, 2020 The reason why LTL is nerfed to the ground is the flawed-understanding of the term "less than lethal". Less than Lethal means the weapon is less likely to kill than lethal weapons, period. It doesn't mean they are slower in neutralizing targets, less accurate or take longer to equip and fire. If anything Tazers are the fastest way to neutralize any target (headshots excluded, which don't exist in APB anyway). While LTL is kept weaker than Lethal weapons to prevent injustice to Criminal-characters (and that's fine), the gap need not be this ridiculously huge. It is naturally this huge because the gaps between Lethal-weapons themselves are huge as well. Weapon Balancing in this game currently puts a lot of emphasis on loadout-choices to the point where even perfect-plays without missing a shot or skipping a beat won't be enough despite the opponent actually missing a shot or two. It is simply wrong for a shooter to have player-skill be less than weapon-choice, no matter how you look at it. I really wish this would change even if by a little bit or APB won't be going anywhere. --------------------------------------------- - Gentle reminder that the OCA's ttk is no longer 0.7s, it is 0.672 without any cooling jacket at all, which would be a rare-sight. People at least run cooling jacket 2 and most would run cooling jacket 3 considering this weapon got a massive-buff, crouch-accuracy-buff as well (0.64s and 0.6s time-to-kills respectively). - DMR with Heavy-Barrel 3 becomes an LTL-sniper, it takes roughly the same time to stun as the NL9. That alone tells how slow the NL9 currently is. - Adding to the list of Cons, re-arresting a freed-Criminal without them dying again DOES NOT COUNT. Meaning it negates the slightly ever so small extra rewards as well as mission-score every now and then. There is also no blitzkrieg-equivalent for successive arrests, but mowing down people with an Euryale is pretty much Guaranteed MVP of the match. --------------------------------------------- CCG With the weapon's fire-rate being 0.15s, that's the increment-value that will translate to time-to-stun if the required number of shots is modified. Setting CCG to 6 shots would bring time-to-stun down to 0.75. That's STAR-grade time in CQC and still miles away from submachine-guns and shotguns. 7 shots is 0.9s time-to-stun and would still be injust to player skill, 6 is the better choice. CCG's fire-rate must be buffed slightly as well to bring it down to a workable 0.72 seconds (so that it won't be as fast as n-tec, carbine, tas20, etc) (0.15 → 0.144). While at it, bring STAR, Condor and the like's ttks down a bit to 0.71 or 0.715, they need not be that far behind n-tec and FAR considering they recover slow. - The weapon's equip time of 1 full-second is also ridiculous and can guarantee death. Bring it down to 0.8s like everything else. TG-8 It indeed is inaccurate with its bloom-mechanic that should not exist. 1 Second to stun is fine as the weapon is comparable to the FBW. Still a disadvantage against Colby .45 at arrest-range but it is fine. - The weapon for some reason is set to equip at a ridiculously-high time of 0.6s. Bring it down to FBW's time of 0.35s as it is comparable to that weapon. NL-9 2 shots are good for this weapon indeed. Reduce its fire interval as well (0.78s → 0.72s). But to compensate, reduce its range from 50 meters to 18m as the weapon should be a shotgun, not a sniper or a long-range dart-shooter (like who thought this was a good idea? Cops don't arrest at 50 meters) (or 15m for max damage if the weapon is given a trending-damage rather than have the slug vanish from existence at max range). - Bring the Equip time from 0.9s down to 0.8 like other shotguns. PIG A tazer should have immense stopping-power, but it shouldn't extend beyond what is reasonable. Buff the weapon's stamina damage back up to 950, but reduce its range from 9m to 6m. - Although it is a secondary. Giving it its power back is okay and good reason to have its equip-time remain at 0.6 seconds. O-PGL CD With progression in mind for incoming-players, the weapon is awarded at max cop-rank (level 15) and is nothing but a fun-item. Even though it is inferior in damage to the lethal-PGL, its blast-radius compensates, therefore it is fine as is. - The weapon equips exactly as fast as O-PGL 79R (1.3s), therefore no need to change its equip time. ----------------------------------------------------------- Afterwards, we can move forward to reducing gaps between Lethal-weapons themselves for a more fair experience. There will always be meta, but meta need not be that much ridiculously far ahead. Also nerf percussion grenades 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Infinito 100 Posted September 22, 2020 7 hours ago, LilyRain said: The reason why LTL is nerfed to the ground is the flawed-understanding of the term "less than lethal". Less than Lethal means the weapon is less likely to kill than lethal weapons, period. It doesn't mean they are slower in neutralizing targets, less accurate or take longer to equip and fire. If anything Tazers are the fastest way to neutralize any target (headshots excluded, which don't exist in APB anyway). While LTL is kept weaker than Lethal weapons to prevent injustice to Criminal-characters (and that's fine), the gap need not be this ridiculously huge. It is naturally this huge because the gaps between Lethal-weapons themselves are huge as well. Weapon Balancing in this game currently puts a lot of emphasis on loadout-choices to the point where even perfect-plays without missing a shot or skipping a beat won't be enough despite the opponent actually missing a shot or two. It is simply wrong for a shooter to have player-skill be less than weapon-choice, no matter how you look at it. I really wish this would change even if by a little bit or APB won't be going anywhere. --------------------------------------------- - Gentle reminder that the OCA's ttk is no longer 0.7s, it is 0.672 without any cooling jacket at all, which would be a rare-sight. People at least run cooling jacket 2 and most would run cooling jacket 3 considering this weapon got a massive-buff, crouch-accuracy-buff as well (0.64s and 0.6s time-to-kills respectively). - DMR with Heavy-Barrel 3 becomes an LTL-sniper, it takes roughly the same time to stun as the NL9. That alone tells how slow the NL9 currently is. - Adding to the list of Cons, re-arresting a freed-Criminal without them dying again DOES NOT COUNT. Meaning it negates the slightly ever so small extra rewards as well as mission-score every now and then. There is also no blitzkrieg-equivalent for successive arrests, but mowing down people with an Euryale is pretty much Guaranteed MVP of the match. --------------------------------------------- CCG With the weapon's fire-rate being 0.15s, that's the increment-value that will translate to time-to-stun if the required number of shots is modified. Setting CCG to 6 shots would bring time-to-stun down to 0.75. That's STAR-grade time in CQC and still miles away from submachine-guns and shotguns. 7 shots is 0.9s time-to-stun and would still be injust to player skill, 6 is the better choice. CCG's fire-rate must be buffed slightly as well to bring it down to a workable 0.72 seconds (so that it won't be as fast as n-tec, carbine, tas20, etc) (0.15 → 0.144). While at it, bring STAR, Condor and the like's ttks down a bit to 0.71 or 0.715, they need not be that far behind n-tec and FAR considering they recover slow. - The weapon's equip time of 1 full-second is also ridiculous and can guarantee death. Bring it down to 0.8s like everything else. TG-8 It indeed is inaccurate with its bloom-mechanic that should not exist. 1 Second to stun is fine as the weapon is comparable to the FBW. Still a disadvantage against Colby .45 at arrest-range but it is fine. - The weapon for some reason is set to equip at a ridiculously-high time of 0.6s. Bring it down to FBW's time of 0.35s as it is comparable to that weapon. NL-9 2 shots are good for this weapon indeed. Reduce its fire interval as well (0.78s → 0.72s). But to compensate, reduce its range from 50 meters to 18m as the weapon should be a shotgun, not a sniper or a long-range dart-shooter (like who thought this was a good idea? Cops don't arrest at 50 meters) (or 15m for max damage if the weapon is given a trending-damage rather than have the slug vanish from existence at max range). - Bring the Equip time from 0.9s down to 0.8 like other shotguns. PIG A tazer should have immense stopping-power, but it shouldn't extend beyond what is reasonable. Buff the weapon's stamina damage back up to 950, but reduce its range from 9m to 6m. - Although it is a secondary. Giving it its power back is okay and good reason to have its equip-time remain at 0.6 seconds. O-PGL CD With progression in mind for incoming-players, the weapon is awarded at max cop-rank (level 15) and is nothing but a fun-item. Even though it is inferior in damage to the lethal-PGL, its blast-radius compensates, therefore it is fine as is. - The weapon equips exactly as fast as O-PGL 79R (1.3s), therefore no need to change its equip time. ----------------------------------------------------------- Afterwards, we can move forward to reducing gaps between Lethal-weapons themselves for a more fair experience. There will always be meta, but meta need not be that much ridiculously far ahead. Also nerf percussion grenades Thanks for your contribution to this topic! Definitely a neater approach than my explanation. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
