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Clarie

OSCAR with CJ

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10 minutes ago, GhosT said:

 

Has been proven and confirmed a thousand times that bullet holes are wildly inaccurate.

 

Years ago you could enable server sided markers that showed your actual hits, sadly you can't anymore.

Yeah yeah, I've mentioned it in one of my first posts that there will be people who will be saying exactly that.
Typical denial.
For the purpose of this test using wall marks is more than enough.
Even if the results per burst on the servers might be slightly different (we are talking pixels) overall full mag spread will be more or less accurate, that's why I'm using a full mag not a single burst.
That's also why I have included a stationary shooting test so there would be least factors applying to the hit mark position as possible.

Oh yeah and additionally performing the same test on weapons which actually benefit from RS3 will actually show you results via hit marks on the wall.
But when the talk is about OSCAR suddenly everyone is looking for every excuse possible to defend their beliefs.

Edited by Thial

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16 minutes ago, Thial said:

But when the talk is about OSCAR suddenly everyone is looking for every excuse possible to defend their beliefs.

 

That includes you my friend.

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Just now, GhosT said:

 

That includes you my friend.

I'm backing up my every claim with actual video evidence (unlike you) so unfortunately you are wrong.

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1 hour ago, Thial said:

I'm backing up my every claim with actual video evidence (unlike you) so unfortunately you are wrong.

 

Which can't be considered as proof as you're shooting walls, but at least you're trying, I give you that.

Fact is that both RS3 and ADS barely change anything, deal with it, or don't, I don't care anymore.

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1 hour ago, GhosT said:

 

Which can't be considered as proof as you're shooting walls, but at least you're trying, I give you that.

Fact is that both RS3 and ADS barely change anything, deal with it, or don't, I don't care anymore.

It's still better proof than no proof at all + it's not much different from what is happening on the server.
Shooting at the walls is currently the only way to have a proper visual representation of the spread.
After years of playing with OSCAR and testing both IR3 vs IR3 RS3 in missions I can also confirm that RS3 had no impact on actual shooting at other players.
There was absolutely no difference in my close and far accuracy and I was conducting similar tests as well in the past to be sure that I'm not imagining it.
If LO will implement debug bullet impact visibility both client and server sided like in CS:GO the tests can be repeated but I'm not expecting a big difference between the two.

Yes RS3 does nothing but about recoil you are completely wrong.

Disclaimer: The line markings indicated where my crosshair has started from and where it has ended up after firing a full mag in both hipfire and ADS mode.
By comparing full mag recoil range you can calculate the per shot recoil percentage difference.

As you can see on the picture ADS shots have approximately ~72% less recoil than hipfire shots.
Do you still want to claim that ADS changes barely anything ? ~72% is a very big "barely".

8TjVfOR.png

Edited by Thial

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2 hours ago, Thial said:

snip
 

 

Yeah, ADS lowers the recoil, but recoil isn't an issue on the OSCAR and you can easily spam it at any range, that's what I'm talking about.

That's why ADS is worthless.

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Just now, GhosT said:

 

Yeah, ADS lowers the recoil, but recoil isn't an issue on the OSCAR and you can easily spam it at any range, that's what I'm talking about.

That's why ADS is worthless.

Your excuses are different with your every response.
Every time I disprove your claim with actual proof you are coming up with something new.
 

 

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17 minutes ago, Thial said:

Your excuses are different with your every response.
Every time I disprove your claim with actual proof you are coming up with something new.

 

Meanwhile you refuse to believe things every APB player knows.

If going ADS helps you, you do that. But it's not something necessary nor does it change much about the gun. Just like RS3.

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39 minutes ago, GhosT said:

 

Meanwhile you refuse to believe things every APB player knows.

If going ADS helps you, you do that. But it's not something necessary nor does it change much about the gun. Just like RS3.

As I use to say very often. Just because a large amount of people says something, doesn't necessarily mean that it's true or right.
I'm explaining things, using facts and evidence, not what ifs and beliefs or worse placebo.

If I'm wrong prove it with actual evidence. Otherwise your words mean literally nothing.
I don't have a problem with being wrong if I actually am but so far nobody has provided any evidence to back it up.

Placebo and ego are funny things.

Edited by Thial

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17 minutes ago, Thial said:

As I use to say very often. Just because a large amount of people says something, doesn't necessarily mean that it's true or right.
I'm explaining things, using facts and evidence, not what ifs and beliefs or worse placebo.

If I'm wrong prove it with actual evidence. Otherwise your words mean literally nothing.
I don't have a problem with being wrong if I actually am but so far nobody has provided any evidence to back it up.

Placebo and ego are funny things.

 

Like I said, years ago you could go to the config sand enable some of the dev features.

One of them showed where your shots ended up on the server, while still showing you the original bullet holes.

Every single gun was inaccurate. It's going to be the same for the OSCAR.

Can't find out what those hitmarkers were called but if you have the correct name I'm sure you can google it.

 

Needless to say, we all know ADS and RS3 on the OSCAR doesn't really do anything to make the gun better.

Like I already said, if going ADS helps you with the OSCAR, then do it. I understand that hip firing on range can be hard for some people. :)

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1 minute ago, GhosT said:

 

Like I said, years ago you could go to the config sand enable some of the dev features.

One of them showed where your shots ended up on the server, while still showing you the original bullet holes.

Every single gun was inaccurate. It's going to be the same for the OSCAR.

Can't find out what those hitmarkers were called but if you have the correct name I'm sure you can google it.

 

Needless to say, we all know ADS and RS3 on the OSCAR doesn't really do anything to make the gun better.

Like I already said, if going ADS helps you with the OSCAR, then do it. I understand that hip firing on range can be hard for some people. :)

In your first posts you have claimed that RS3 is beneficial and now "we all know that RS3 on OSCAR doesn't do anything".

And for the what, 5th time now ? I'm telling you that ADS does change things. Not only you eliminate around 70% of the hipfire recoil which makes the gun easier to control and increases your overall accuracy, it also provides you with a nice zoom.

Also I don't know why are you so keen on making it about me ? Do you feel personally attacked by facts ?
If you have a problem with accepting facts that's on you.

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4 minutes ago, Thial said:

In your first posts you have claimed that RS3 is beneficial and now "we all know that RS3 on OSCAR doesn't do anything".

And for the what, 5th time now ? I'm telling you that ADS does change things. Not only you eliminate around 70% of the hipfire recoil which makes the gun easier to control and increases your overall accuracy, it also provides you with a nice zoom.

Also I don't know why are you so keen on making it about me ? Do you feel personally attacked by facts ?
If you have a problem with accepting facts that's on you.

 

In one way or another RS3 is beneficial, even though it doesn't matter most of the time.

As for ADS, zoom and recoil is personal preference. I myself couldn't care less about zoom or the low recoil of the OSCAR.

 

I don't feel attacked, I'm just listing facts, however you trained your OSCAR for years on a belief that barely changes anything, so I understand you.

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1 minute ago, GhosT said:

 

In one way or another RS3 is beneficial, even though it doesn't matter most of the time.

As for ADS, zoom and recoil is personal preference. I myself couldn't care less about zoom or the low recoil of the OSCAR.

 

I don't feel attacked, I'm just listing facts, however you trained your OSCAR for years on a belief that barely changes anything, so I understand you.

RS3 is not beneficial at all in any way. OSCAR stats are too small to be affected by RS modifier in any visible way.
Facts are not personal preference 😂 Either ADS reduces recoil or it doesn't.

I haven't trained anything on a belief. I was simply playing IR3 MP3 3PS setup since RS3 does literally nothing on OSCAR unlike on other weapons which I have confirmed now and multiple other times over the years by testing it even with my friends.

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Just now, Thial said:

Facts are not personal preference 

 

Going ADS is personal preference as the zoom doesn't change the guns performance in any way and the recoil is very easily countered on the OSCAR so that's not really a reason to ADS and make yourself slower.

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1 minute ago, GhosT said:

 

Going ADS is personal preference as the zoom doesn't change the guns performance in any way and the recoil is very easily countered on the OSCAR so that's not really a reason to ADS and make yourself slower.

Well I thought that it was obvious obviousness that you ADS from cover while you don't move ?
Zoom doesn't change the gun's performance but it changes your performance as the targets become bigger  and the recoil is much lower giving you greater control and accuracy.
I don't know about you but to me it's a considerable advantage.

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5 minutes ago, Thial said:

Well I thought that it was obvious obviousness that you ADS from cover while you don't move ?
Zoom doesn't change the gun's performance but it changes your performance as the targets become bigger  and the recoil is much lower giving you greater control and accuracy.
I don't know about you but to me it's a considerable advantage.

 

I'm sorry but why is the OSCARs low recoil a problem for you?

Especially the burst mechanic makes it very easy to control it.

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On 10/16/2019 at 6:13 PM, Thial said:

I wrote about quickscope lean ADS. No moving involved (lean out of the corner and zoom at the same time, shoot, and immediately zoom out, lean in and walk into the corner, it takes split of a second and makes it nearly impossible to hit a person doing it correctly)
It gives you advantage over your enemies since it's performed much faster than a hipfire strafe and makes people try to aim at your head as opposed to anywhere on your body which makes people more tense as the target is much smaller increasing the chance of error.

You are trying to invalidate a factual, mechanical advantage with a psychological technique.

From a gameplay perspective the argument makes sense, but it doesn't change the fact that RS3 is a good pick on the OSCAR.

 

On 10/17/2019 at 11:02 AM, Thial said:

Lean ADS quickscope reveals basically only your head for split of a second, gives you zoom and better control due to ADS and in OSCAR's case better accuracy since you eliminate the hipfire recoil. Makes your enemy try to hit your tiny head which will make them fuck up far more trust me.

Since we're basically talking high skill gameplay here I've got to shoot your argument down here. Skilled players won't care if only your head pokes out of cover, because they know your hitbox is exposed all the way to the ground. They will still target center mass.

Does your technique work against the average player? Certainly. But so does hipfire and sprinting in and out of cover.

 

For every engagement that does not allow you to ADS-lean the RS3 user will be at a mechanical advantage.

 

 

7 hours ago, GhosT said:

 

Has been proven and confirmed a thousand times that bullet holes are wildly inaccurate.

 

Years ago you could enable server sided markers that showed your actual hits, sadly you can't anymore.

I don't think it was ever proven that client side bullet holes are wildly inaccurate. They do not represent where the server will confirm your hit, but they still follow the mechanics of the gun (unless you tamper with them client-side).

For the sake of testing a gun by shooting at a wall they should be perfectly fine.

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6 minutes ago, Revoluzzer said:

I don't think it was ever proven that client side bullet holes are wildly inaccurate. They do not represent where the server will confirm your hit, but they still follow the mechanics of the gun (unless you tamper with them client-side).

For the sake of testing a gun by shooting at a wall they should be perfectly fine.

 

Some guns were extremely inaccurate, some guns were accurate, it's hard to say on the OSCAR because by the time that gun came out, the "feature" was disabled long ago.

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44 minutes ago, Revoluzzer said:

You are trying to invalidate a factual, mechanical advantage with a psychological technique.

From a gameplay perspective the argument makes sense, but it doesn't change the fact that RS3 is a good pick on the OSCAR.

Why is it a good pick though if it has no visible benefit ? Can you elaborate ? I have tested it on the walls, vs players and with my friends in the past and I see no benefit to OSCAR from using RS3 on it.

 

44 minutes ago, Revoluzzer said:

Since we're basically talking high skill gameplay here I've got to shoot your argument down here. Skilled players won't care if only your head pokes out of cover, because they know your hitbox is exposed all the way to the ground. They will still target center mass.

Does your technique work against the average player? Certainly. But so does hipfire and sprinting in and out of cover.

That's true if you are talking about it from the perspective of a calm mind. What happens in the middle of a fight is different. As soon as you flick and you will see a head popping out of the corner you will automatically aim at it, not at the invisible hitbox. Our brains are just coded that way. Of course some people will be able to counter that fact if they are aware of it and they will be consciously trying to counter it for a long time. That's just esentially breaking the habits.

Here's how fast lean ADS quickscoping is (it can be faster if done perfectly, haven't played APB for a long time because of RTX card problems so I'm rusty)

https://streamable.com/xjv5g

The visibility times are as follows:
Lean ADS quickscoping: about 200ms (can be faster)
hipfire strafe: 250ms (can't be faster since it's limited by movement speed / unless you are a masochist and you are using fragile)
lean ADS quickscope speed if faster than average reaction time so If you can do it fast enough it's a great way of poking snipers/campers with minimum danger to yourself as opposed to strafing where the majority of good players will have a reaction time of around 210ms and they will be able to react to strafing.

Also can't really prove it so take it with a grain of salt but I'm pretty sure that as an old player you know about the hitbox lag issues where they are being dragged after you so sometimes you die when you are already behind the corner. Strafing can lead to that kind of a situation while lean quickscoping doesn't.
Also if the server is dodgy it can teleport you out of the corner if you are doing a zigzag fast.

So those things can further increase the danger to yourself while strafe corner popping.

Also by revealing only the head the optical input becomes smaller which can further slow down the reaction for some people (especially since on long ranges the head might even be obscured by the crosshair).

45 minutes ago, GhosT said:

 

I'm sorry but why is the OSCARs low recoil a problem for you?

Especially the burst mechanic makes it very easy to control it.

I have never said that it was a problem for me.
Stop drawing wrong conclusions.
All I was doing was stating some facts about hipfire vs ADS.
 

44 minutes ago, Revoluzzer said:

I don't think it was ever proven that client side bullet holes are wildly inaccurate. They do not represent where the server will confirm your hit, but they still follow the mechanics of the gun (unless you tamper with them client-side).

For the sake of testing a gun by shooting at a wall they should be perfectly fine.

I definitely agree. Even if they are slightly off as in similar differences like in CS:GO they should still retain the general pattern / spread.

Edited by Thial
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36 minutes ago, Thial said:

Why is it a good pick though if it has no visible benefit ? Can you elaborate ? I have tested it on the walls, vs players and with my friends in the past and I see no benefit to OSCAR from using RS3 on it.

There is a mathematical, mechanical benefit. It doesn't really matter if you don't notice it, it still exists on a technical level. It's not as palpable as aiming down sights and confirming that the FOV has, in fact, decreased drastically, of course.

For someone comfortable with hipfiring, that extra bit of consistency goes a long way.

 

 

36 minutes ago, Thial said:

That's true if you are talking about it from the perspective of a calm mind. What happens in the middle of a fight is different. As soon as you flick and you will see a head popping out of the corner you will automatically aim at it, not at the invisible hitbox. Our brains are just coded that way. Of course some people will be able to counter that fact if they are aware of it and they will be consciously trying to counter it for a long time. That's just esentially breaking the habits.

We've already established we're talking high level gameplay here. People have long broken those habits. Not quite Shroud levels of routine, but similar.

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What a thrilling argument 🙂  but let's face it: There is no right or wrong. It's all in matter of personal preferences especially when it comes to versatile weapons like the OSCAR.

 

I personally don't use RS, since in some certain situations, like peaking arround corners, ADSing feels more reliable. Same goes for the carbine, which is pretty much my main weapon and I don't play it with RS either.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Revoluzzer said:

There is a mathematical, mechanical benefit. It doesn't really matter if you don't notice it, it still exists on a technical level. It's not as palpable as aiming down sights and confirming that the FOV has, in fact, decreased drastically, of course.

For someone comfortable with hipfiring, that extra bit of consistency goes a long way.

Yes I never argued the fact that the mod works but if you don't see a visible difference that can automatically mean that you are relying on what ifs.
"Maybe it will benefit me, maybe it won't, I hope it will."
Going down that road imo it's just not worth wasting a mod slot for something which doesn't provide a visible, consistent and certain advantage. That's why I'm generally recommending utility mods like MP3 and Tagger/3-PS since they are changing your gun in a considerable way which can actually benefit you. I often feel like the majority of people use RS3 on OSCAR because of placebo or because someone told them that it's good and not because they have actually tested it.
 

9 minutes ago, Revoluzzer said:

We've already established we're talking high level gameplay here. People have long broken those habits. Not quite Shroud levels of routine, but similar.

Yes that is definitely true although the main reason why you would use the lean quickscope ADS over strafe hipfire is the speed and hitbox exposure time. Those things can go a long way when facing the top players. In top level matches every bit of health as well as every bit of dealt damage matters.

Quoting myself:

58 minutes ago, Thial said:

Here's how fast lean ADS quickscoping is (it can be faster if done perfectly, haven't played APB for a long time because of RTX card problems so I'm rusty)

https://streamable.com/xjv5g

The visibility times are as follows:
Lean ADS quickscoping: about 200ms (can be faster)
hipfire strafe: 250ms (can't be faster since it's limited by movement speed / unless you are a masochist and you are using fragile)
lean ADS quickscope speed if faster than average reaction time so If you can do it fast enough it's a great way of poking snipers/campers with minimum danger to yourself as opposed to strafing where the majority of good players will have a reaction time of around 210ms and they will be able to react to strafing.
 

Also can't really prove it so take it with a grain of salt but I'm pretty sure that as an old player you know about the hitbox lag issues where they are being dragged after you so sometimes you die when you are already behind the corner. Strafing can lead to that kind of a situation while lean quickscoping doesn't.
Also if the server is dodgy it can teleport you out of the corner if you are doing a zigzag fast.

So those things can further increase the danger to yourself while strafe corner popping.

Also by revealing only the head the optical input becomes smaller which can further slow down the reaction for some people (especially since on long ranges the head might even be obscured by the crosshair).

5 minutes ago, Clarie said:

What a thrilling argument 🙂  but let's face it: There is no right or wrong. It's all in matter of personal preferences especially when it comes to versatile weapons like the OSCAR.

 

I personally don't use RS, since in some certain situations, like peaking arround corners, ADSing feels more reliable. Same goes for the carbine, which is pretty much my main weapon and I don't play it with RS either.

Definitely true. The main reason for a heated argument is that people are trying to spread misinformation saying that RS3 is great for OSCAR while it does basically nothing. Nothing visible at the very least.
As you can probably see nobody has provided any sort of proof to their RS3 good / ADS bad claims. Maybe if we will get CS:GO like debug hit markers we will be able to revisit the topic.
Also the fact that people are trying to disprove the viability of ADS on OSCAR due to unknown to me reasons. Probably just ego or just wanting to win the argument.

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