Consideration to re-evaluate weapon DPS.

[NysekZePope 33]

Decided to post this thread because there's very little reason there's such a huge DPS discrepancy when comparing pistol/rifle/melee light->medium->heavy tiers. This isn't so much an issue with "pistols" as it is with other weapons for some reason not following the same % damage to % delay ratio (Well that and assault rifle isn't a fair comparison as it's 30 DPS lower than lights). Tho Rifles and Melee haven't seen much adjustment as in prior patches they fell into particular meta builds, or of course with old dodge weren't hurt as badly by previous mechanics. And due to the burst meta prior to 3.2 which kept Snipers, Shotguns, and 2h melee in the loop for the most part.

This doesn't really excuse assault rifles (Which saw some love, not much) nor battle rifles (which are currently the single worst weapon in the game in terms of overall scaling) being as piss poor of weapon choices over simply going pistols. (30.16 to 69.846 DPS)

 

Pistols (234.66 DPS max with 154 if both pistols land)

• Light Pistol vs Heavy Pistol : 71.5% (roughly) damage for 80% delay with 20% reload increase.
• Light Pistol vs Medium Pistol : 28.6% (roughly) damage  for 40% delay with no reload increase.
  • Both of the above values can be considered 2x damage scaling as they are dual wield weapons (143% and 57.2% if we wanted to get technical)
  • Would put SMG and Sawed Off Shotguns but these need way to much work to be worth a damn.

Rifles (204.5 DPS max with 90 per shot)

• Assault Rifle vs Battle Rifle : 31.12% damage  for 75% delay
• Assault Rifle vs Sniper : Roughly 132.3% damage for 275% delay
• Assault Rifle vs Shotgun : 120% damage for 325% delay

Melee (178.66 DPS max with 268 if both shards land)

• 1h (1.5) vs 2h (1.4) : Roughly -34% damage for .1 less delay? (A little under 7.1% delay)
  • This is because it's two weapons vs one, the raw damage increase compared to one shard is 49.3% (roughly)
    • To make this clear AP shards are ahead by 34% overall damage.
• 1h (1.1) vs 1h (1.5) : Roughly 27.7% damage for roughly 37% delay
  • Obviously same as above with pistols, which is a bit of an overshot but 55.4%
    • I would include Kukri but seeing as AFFA has superior DPS we can easily stop there.

Pistols scale at a significantly higher rate in terms of damage/delay ratio, more-so heavies which get a .89% damage per 1% delay. (Rounding up to nearest tenth in most cases)

 

• Mediums get .75% per 1% delay
• Battle Rifles get .4149% per 1% delay (biggest yikes right here)
• Sniper Rifles get .48% per 1% delay
• Shotguns gets a .37% per 1% delay (about 22.9% below a sniper)
• 2h melee lose damage as shown above, there is no fast delay melee to compare (at 195) even if they're not exactly at a bad spot. But it should be considered if shotgun ever were considered to get a boost.
• 2h melee should always be superior to shotgun, period. But the idea a 2h melee is only 51.52% over 1 shard is a bit crazy. leading to the
• 1h melee get 1.3% per 1% delay

Considering that Heavy Pistols have the DPS of 213.33 vs Light's 234.66 we're looking at a large discrepancy compared to other weapons for light->heavy tiers of DPS loss.

• That's a total of 21.33 DPS between light/heavy variants.
  • Example shown above clearly show pistols aren't even remotely as penalized. This isn't really an issue, if other weapons had the same scaling.
• Assault Rifles should have considerably higher DPS, it's advantage of course is range so DPS can suffer a tad because of this.
• Battle Rifles should be on the same tier as Medium Pistols, following the same ruleset as above.
• Sniper rifles should be on the same tier as heavies, even considering it's range advantage (which should reach 120 as it's render distance) it should be at least in the 170+ DPS area.
  • All weapons listed above should basically just get a damage/delay re-evaluation to compete obviously.

 

Melee/Shotgun are touchy subjects due to their ease of aim.

• Even if you consider 1h melee has 134 base damage (178.66 DPS), it should be considered that if shotgun or 2h melee get boosted then 1h should come up enough to still have the lead
• 2h Melee and Shotgun could easily see delay reductions with reasonable damage increase considering their roles.

 

How the DPS "tiers" should fall into place.

 

• Light Pistol : Obviously at the top due to it's low range, it needs to sit at the top as it always has. But AP lights should be considered to be boosted to 24 in a magazine rather than 16. (20 DPS increase)
  • Range decreased to 30 meters, and yes the 20 DPS increase on lights is quite large but the gap needs to be bigger on light vs heavy tier.
• Assault Rifle : To bring it to current light DPS damage would need to come up to 105 per shot (AP variant vs current) or 110 if light magazine size is increased.
  • This translates to 232.04 DPS (if lights stay at their current strength) to 243.09 DPS if lights got a larger magazine.
    • DPS has to beat Medium Pistols.
• Medium Pistols : Range increase to 40m
• Battle Rifle : Range increase to 70m (+4 to current), damaging then scaling up based on how mediums currently scale (delay to damage ratio)
  • Following the concept above a 195 battle rifle would need to jump to about 165 after augmentation translating to 211.05 DPS.
    • Must beat heavy pistol in DPS, reduce AP Battle Rifle range to 70m.
• Heavy Pistol : Range increased to 50m
• 195 AP Shards : Touchy subject as it's one of the easier weapons, but should keep it's lead above 2h.
  • Tho I'd rather see a higher DPS alternative such as AFFA blade or Kukri AP weapon variant.
• Sniper : Range increased to 120m and consider delay reduction to 1.2 which will greatly assist in giving it a proper threat level in PVP. It needs to be a threatening weapon beyond "slow reaction".
  • A solid example would be 240 damage with 1.2 delay leaving other stats the same giving it  176.15 DPS.
• 2h Melee : Should always be above shotgun, period, by a decent sum. Bringing it to 230 would bring it to 164 DPS (Would give it's 23.3% lead like 164 variants during 45 cap)
• Shotgun : Should be considered to have it's delay reduced to 1.5 while DPS coming up at least to 130-140 range (215 would sit it at 132.31 DPS while 230 with the same delay would reach 141 DPS)

 

TL:DR;

DPS scaling

• Light Pistols (254 DPS) : Modifiers fine at +8 but should reflect more Light pistols throughout the leveling process.
• Assault Rifles (232 DPS) : Should gain +8 modifiers to reflect Light Pistols
• Medium Pistols (222 DPS) : Modifiers fine at +6 currently but should reflect more Medium pistols throughout the leveling process.
• Battle Rifles (211 DPS) : Modifiers should reflect Medium Pistol going no higher than +6
• Heavy Pistols ( 200 DPS which should translate to 124 damage per shot, currently 213 DPS) : Modifiers fine at +4 but should reflect more Heavy pistols throughout the leveling process.
  • Strongly recommend this falling behind 1h melee in DPS, reducing reload back to 2.5, and increasing delay to 1.2. (123 a shot)
• 1h Melee (190 which is +12 damage per shard) : Modifiers on weapons are fine
  • Realistically we should be adding a lower delay weapon close to AFFA blades (1.2) or Kukri's (.9) so we can tone down these shards which currently scale like light weapons.
  • AP AFFA : 115 (105 base, +10 augmentation) for 191 DPS
  • AP Kukri : Something around 88? (80 base + 8 augmentation) for 195 DPS
    • This would mean Shards new damage/DPS would probably not budge at 176 (120 + 12 augmentation damage with 1.5 delay)
• Sniper (176) : With changes suggested above
• 2h Melee (164) : +10 Melee on all 2h
• Shotgun (130-140) : Still bottom of the barrel : Add +10 Rifle skill onto Shotguns (Change +2 SIR/Ye Old to +10)

 

Overall this would help push away from the longer fights, open more weapon choices, and even without any of the numbers provided here at the bottom at the very least show there is a huge discrepancy between weapon types as well as DPS scaling. Especially when considering melee and rifle, as their "high DPS" variants are extremely under-powered.

Edited March 3 by NysekZePope

[cowhorseman 441]

lets not forget about how melee is touchy when it lands. it says a max range of 1m but i can hit up to 10 at times or be point blank and miss five but see effects for hiting people. which in turn makes pvp combat more favored to shotguns or pistols as you can see projectiles coming out of the guns

[NysekZePope 33]

48 minutes ago, cowhorseman said:

lets not forget about how melee is touchy when it lands. it says a max range of 1m but i can hit up to 10 at times or be point blank and miss five but see effects for hiting people. which in turn makes pvp combat more favored to shotguns or pistols as you can see projectiles coming out of the guns

 

Melee actually has a 6-7 meter range as everything has 5 meter bonus range which for some reason increases by 1 when moving. The other reason this happens is due to serverside->clientside communication not updating the target's location properly. Thus giving "You are not facing" or "Target is out of range" while clearly in range.

A quick fix to that would be to remove the 5m bonus range to everything and give melee it's set range. That and maybe disable the "need to be facing to hit a target" since you can't hit a target outside of your hit area, the only real downside is you will sometimes hit someone behind you when in third person, but it's better than losing an attack tbh.

Edit : Pistol is favored in PVP due to it's vast DPS advantage, a solid example is a heavy pistol can land only 52% of it's total hits but still out damage a shotgun. Which the advantage gets lower and lower as you go up in tiers in DPS. 2h is if a heavy pistol lands 67% of their hits. One handed melee (shards) is beaten if a heavy pistol lands 83.75% of their damage. Mind you this is all at range, and melee DPS is considering you're always able to attack.

Rifle's advantage is simply range and positioning, it's 2h melee but weaker. Ya in groups it's a fantastic weapon, solo it's only going to matter going all-in and easily countered by 1 nano.

One can of course argue that "Well in group fights X can insta-drop someone", but yes every weapon has that potential to insta-gib with enough attackers.

Edited December 28, 2021 by NysekZePope

[cowhorseman 441]

23 hours ago, NysekZePope said:

 

Melee actually has a 6-7 meter range as everything has 5 meter bonus range which for some reason increases by 1 when moving. The other reason this happens is due to serverside->clientside communication not updating the target's location properly. Thus giving "You are not facing" or "Target is out of range" while clearly in range.

A quick fix to that would be to remove the 5m bonus range to everything and give melee it's set range. That and maybe disable the "need to be facing to hit a target" since you can't hit a target outside of your hit area, the only real downside is you will sometimes hit someone behind you when in third person, but it's better than losing an attack tbh.

Edit : Pistol is favored in PVP due to it's vast DPS advantage, a solid example is a heavy pistol can land only 52% of it's total hits but still out damage a shotgun. Which the advantage gets lower and lower as you go up in tiers in DPS. 2h is if a heavy pistol lands 67% of their hits. One handed melee (shards) is beaten if a heavy pistol lands 83.75% of their damage. Mind you this is all at range, and melee DPS is considering you're always able to attack.

Rifle's advantage is simply range and positioning, it's 2h melee but weaker. Ya in groups it's a fantastic weapon, solo it's only going to matter going all-in and easily countered by 1 nano.

One can of course argue that "Well in group fights X can insta-drop someone", but yes every weapon has that potential to insta-gib with enough attackers.

if we are going to include the camera lets not forget bigger toons over 100 on scale can have the camera clip into a wall or object more often the toons under 100.

 

for what ever ungodly reason you hit where you cross heir is. sounds odd right? well if your camera clips though lets say a vent you hit the inside of the vent because that is were your heir is meaning you can corner people in pvp and win due to there 3rd person camera clipping inside something or around something and them shooting behind them

[NysekZePope 33]

3 hours ago, cowhorseman said:

if we are going to include the camera lets not forget bigger toons over 100 on scale can have the camera clip into a wall or object more often the toons under 100.

 

for what ever ungodly reason you hit where you cross heir is. sounds odd right? well if your camera clips though lets say a vent you hit the inside of the vent because that is were your heir is meaning you can corner people in pvp and win due to there 3rd person camera clipping inside something or around something and them shooting behind them

 

I mean you can already do this around corners, simply saying to remove the "you are not facing". 

 

There is still a requirement of having clear LoS.

 

Edit : As for the behind... Ya no real solution for that.

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by NysekZePope

[cowhorseman 441]

18 hours ago, NysekZePope said:

 

I mean you can already do this around corners, simply saying to remove the "you are not facing". 

 

There is still a requirement of having clear LoS.

 

Edit : As for the behind... Ya no real solution for that.

 

well the behind you issue could be fixed by making it so that the heir isnt relying on where it is on screen in other words if your facing a target but where the weapons are facing. if i understood how this game handle it's projectiles when fired from a gun or how ther spawned in that help come up with a better idea, and melee i would assume to just make it so it counts not on the heir, but when the hit box makes contact

[NysekZePope 33]

2 hours ago, cowhorseman said:

well the behind you issue could be fixed by making it so that the heir isnt relying on where it is on screen in other words if your facing a target but where the weapons are facing. if i understood how this game handle it's projectiles when fired from a gun or how ther spawned in that help come up with a better idea, and melee i would assume to just make it so it counts not on the heir, but when the hit box makes contact

Well "projectiles" in most cases aren't actual projectiles, the only few would be Grenades/Launchers. Everything else is hit scan.