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Weapon Rebalance Description - NTEC


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#1
Tiggs

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Weapon Rebalance Description
 
We mentioned the Weapon Test District in last month’s Q&A post. We are gaining larger and larger amounts of data which is being gathered in order to solidify changes that may be made to some weapons in a future patch. For those interested in participating, head to the Advanced tab of the District Select Menu. Now that you've had some time to play with the pre-selected 10 weapons, let’s go into exactly what has changed, along with some insight into what data we've gathered, our conclusions from that, and where we are potentially going with the next set of changes.
Firstly, a couple of thoughts and caveats about the data below:

  • Data only really becomes valid with tens of thousands of data points. While we get millions of kills each week, only a fraction of these are in Prototype Districts and as such this preliminary data will be somewhat incomplete. This can be clearly seen by 'Spiky' graphs.
  • We're comparing ALL weapon data vs Prototype weapons in Baylan only. It's a lot faster and provides us more info gathering everything to compare against, rather than comparing against like weapons in Baylan Fight club. As we move on and get closer to our desired results we'll be running longer, slower comparisons that are more accurate. At this stage, 'fast' comparisons that let us know we're going in the right direction are good enough and let us iterate faster.
  • We gather metrics based on the point of death. Specialized weapons, such as Rocket Launchers and Sniper Rifles for instance will have higher than average Kill Death Ratios since players will often have switched to their side-arm when caught unawares and thus more likely to die.
  • A lot of APB kills across all weapons come from 0-4m, regardless of the weapon. Through both our environment and vehicles, opportunities arise for players to get close, and almost every weapon can be effective at point blank range.
  • What's Next?

As we move forward with the accumulated data, refinements will be made.  Once we feel a weapon(s) has been properly balanced, an announcement(s) will be made providing the live date of submission as well as a final description of changes. New weapons will be made available in the Weapon Test District as rebalanced weapons become closer are removal.
 
NTEC
What we've done and why

 

The current version of the NTEC is by far the most popular weapon in APB Reloaded. On a chart of combat events using weapons (total kills + deaths) we can see that the NTEC is used in 14% of cases:

 

HnCX1gD.jpg

 

Even against the STAR, the weapon used at one point by every character, the NTEC dominates in terms of use, and this is stifling weapon variety during missions. A major point of this ubiquity is its ability to tap fire at near full speed and not lose any accuracy. We don't feel this is the ideal use for an assault rifle, and the primary goal for our changes have been to reduce its ability to keep full accuracy under near-cyclic tap fire, while moving it more to a weapon that benefits from being fired in short bursts. 

 

The first part of this was reducing its overhead. By reducing the damage down from 19% to 18.5% we remove the ability to use Heavy Barrel 2 without a major downside. 

 

Secondly we reduced the initial accuracy loss and recoil when firing, and had it increase over time. This makes the weapon much more effective at burst firing (the second shot is almost as accurate as the first) while making tap fire less accurate as you need to wait longer to allow the accuracy exponent to reset.
 
The accuracy of the NTEC at 10m from the hip when firing fully automatically looks like the following (the Y axis is centimetres, X is bullet fired). 

 

l5j6CIr.jpg

 

Aiming from Marksmanship mode is a multiplier on accuracy, so the graph will look the same but with a contracted Y axis.

 

What Effect has it had?

 

HRTVJ3n.jpg

 

Above is the graph of percentage kills at various ranges taken from the last week's data we've been gathering. The prototype values are Orange lined. It's important to note that the data for the prototype weapons is not enough to draw any conclusions from yet, but it is useful for early thoughts. Of all the data gathered, the NTEC by far is the one we have the most data on, so we can at least make some conclusions. From the above graph, we can see that percentages of kills at 4-24m are down, and the percentage of kills from 30-60 are up, so it's losing out to weapons at closer ranges and/or winning more at mid-ranges.  The Kill / Death ratio is also slightly down, though it's within a range that could be attributed to variance. Note that a K:D of less than 1 is perfectly acceptable for a non-situational weapon, as gravity, suicides, accidental team kills and vehicles take their toll.

 

Weapon Rebalance - HVR-762

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Weapon Rebalance - ISSR (A / B)

Weapon Rebalance - OCSP

Weapon Rebalance - FFA-BullShark

Weapon Rebalance - COBR-A  

Weapon Rebalance - VBR

Weapon Rebalance - NFAS-Ogre

Weapon Rebalance - NCR-Anubis


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#2
Vanille

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So if I understood correctly, these changes will be implemented to the prototype district tomorrow? Sounds good so far



#3
BlackBird

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Lets see how the new ntec is gona perform...

 

Then again when this gets pushed into real action districts, everyone will simply switch to JOKER SR VARIANTS !

 

BTW :- SMG_ ACES_SMG IS MISSING ?! (Or i missed it?)


Edited by BlackBird, 09 June 2015 - 10:41 AM.

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#4
Clarity

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B-but in CS:GO.....

 

The AK-47 is very popular :3

 

THEREFORE, APB MUST MAKE THE N-TEC SUPER OP.


Edited by Clarity, 09 June 2015 - 10:43 AM.

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#5
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#6
Jeroennie777

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I have just have a couple of questions of the weapon usage graph:

 

1. From which time to time has this graph been recorded? Example: 03/2014 - now

 

2. The graph clearly shows which weapons are used more, but has there been any consideration in the time since when each weapon has been launched? 

 

3. Many Obeya FBW users have switched to the Colby 45AP as their usual secondary, but I can't seem to find the 45AP on this graph. After further studying the graph I seem as it has been referenced as "ColbyClassic"???



#7
Pragmatix

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B-but in CS:GO.....

 

The AK-47 is very popular :3

 

THEREFORE, APB MUST MAKE THE N-TEC SUPER OP.

 

You know what.....

 

As stupid as that sounds it does make sense. It's an AK-47 after all. I don't want it to be overpowerd, but I also don't want it to become useless. I want it to be a part of the meta, a go to weapon. I'll manage regardless, though.



#8
Periscope

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I have just have a couple of questions of the weapon usage graph:

 

1. From which time to time has this graph been recorded? Example: 03/2014 - now

 

2. The graph clearly shows which weapons are used more, but has there been any consideration in the time since when each weapon has been launched? 

 

3. Many Obeya FBW users have switched to the Colby 45AP as their usual secondary, but I can't seem to find the 45AP on this graph. After further studying the graph I seem as it has been referenced as "ColbyClassic"???

 

1. The graphs are being recorded from the moment the Weapon Testing District went live.

3. It's the Colby .45

 

I like these threads. It shows that Reloaded is involved and busy with rebalancing. They even give a comment for every weapon... :nicethread:


Edited by Periscope, 09 June 2015 - 11:12 AM.

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#9
mynd

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You left out the Carbine; that is my only grievance with an NTEC nerf.



#10
<Flavor>Jenni

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TechMech, I see you lurking. You guys should pop out more somewhat-technical threads like these explaining changes more often.


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#11
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If these stats are from the Test districts then i'm shocked. I see more carbines and hvrs in there. Only reason the ntec was so "popular" in there was due to the change.

 

Edit: Seems rather unfair to compare the ntec usage to the Armas weapons... Your data you're gathering from the test districts is rather low. This is because players had to own the armas weapons to test them while the ntec and hvr are free2play.


Edited by RespectThis / Selden, 09 June 2015 - 11:41 AM.

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#12
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TechMech, I see you lurking. You guys should pop out more somewhat-technical threads like these explaining changes more often.

 

I messed with his DeLorean by accident, that's why he's here ;)

 

On topic : Liking the graphs very much! Very informative and gives a picture of the trend these weapons will have to come


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#13
BillehBobsHoe

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so whats the point of the scoped ntec now?


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#14
BrianRolling

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B-but in CS:GO.....

 

The AK-47 is very popular :3

 

THEREFORE, APB MUST MAKE THE N-TEC SUPER OP.

:BanHammer:



#15
G37

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Ntec should be the same with only that bit of power reduction
I still saying the carbine is op at close range also not sure how this going to be on open districts
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#16
Pocket Heart

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The nerf isn't enough, I think it needs to have a TTK increase to .75 or .80. If it had that and had to use 2-3 round bursts at 30-50 meters while not being as potent in CQC, it would be perfect. You could still be extremely effective at longer ranges while needing to actually work for a close range kill or.. (shocker) switch to a secondary. Even in the test district, the N-TEC is a "no secondary needed" gun. It still does everything.

 

It's only slightly less efficient, I use the gun and I still find it completely over the top - and I'm not even good at this game.

 

I think the people freaking out about the current changes are chicken littles. When they realize that the N-TEC is still amazing and better than most guns (the sky is in fact, not falling) they will go right back to it.


Edited by Pocket Heart, 09 June 2015 - 11:39 AM.

9UnrxNW.png


#17
RespectThis

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The nerf isn't enough, I think it needs to have a TTK increase to .75 or .80.

A. Raising the ttk to that would make the gun 100% useless.

B. That will make the armas weapons pay2win due to lower ttks and better weapon control.


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#18
Raptros

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The first iteration of the NTec you had was good enough IMO

 

Once you changed it up a little bit, it felt a lot like its live version, being stupid easy.

 

Who am I to tell though, I'm not the ones with the data farms.

 

I just hope this gun isn't the be-all-end-all of your inventory anymore.

 

Now, I'm eying that carbine.


 

WHAT DID YOU HONESTLY EXPECT THOUGH?

 

 

 


#19
Kerelith Sanctus

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Could some one explain what the "Less than 1%" part on the pie chart includes please?

I'm assuming it's linked to car kills and falling deaths, but would like to know for certain.


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#20
Pocket Heart

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A. Raising the ttk to that would make the gun 100% useless.

 

Chicken Little.

 

The gun wouldn't be useless, it would have a niche. Right now, even nerfed, it's still amazing at basically any range from 1-55 meters. I don't know what you guys are smoking to think this gun is objectively worse, it's still the easiest gun.


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#21
Pocket Heart

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The first iteration of the NTec you had was good enough IMO

 

Once you changed it up a little bit, it felt a lot like its live version, being stupid easy.

 

Who am I to tell though, I'm not the ones with the data farms.

 

I just hope this gun isn't the be-all-end-all of your inventory anymore.

 

Now, I'm eying that carbine.

 

Even in it's first nerf it was "stupid easy".

 

People were still trying to tap fire and it were like "oh this gun is trash now".

 

I fired in 2 round bursts and was able to dominate at just about any range.

 

the problem with players who think the N-TEC nerf was enough is that they are set in their ways. They don't try to adapt to it at all, they just expect it to work the way it always has. Well the way it has always worked has been broken.

 

It isn't my fault if almost none of you were smart enough to stop banging your head against the tap-fire wall and burst it properly.

 

It was still amazing.

 

After the second change, I see basically no difference between it and its live version. There's no practical difference, we're right back to the bad old days.


Edited by Pocket Heart, 09 June 2015 - 12:03 PM.

9UnrxNW.png


#22
Pocket Heart

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Could some one explain what the "Less than 1%" part on the pie chart includes please?

I'm assuming it's linked to car kills and falling deaths, but would like to know for certain.

 

Every other gun not specifically listed there.


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#23
Kerelith Sanctus

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Every other gun not specifically listed there.

 Ok, thanks.


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#24
Raptros

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Even in it's first nerf it was "stupid easy".

 

People were still trying to tap fire and it were like "oh this gun is trash now".

 

I fired in 2 round bursts and was able to dominate at just about any range.

 

the problem with players who think the N-TEC nerf was enough is that they are set in their ways. They don't try to adapt to it at all, they just expect it to work the way it always has. Well the way it has always worked has been broken.

 

It isn't my fault if almost none of you were smart enough to stop banging your head against the tap-fire wall and burst it properly.

 

It was still amazing.

 

After the second change, I see basically no difference between it and its live version. There's no practical difference, we're right back to the bad old days.

 

OH MY GOD OK SO IM NOT CRAZY

 

I honestly thought I was wrong for a while, nobody wanted to agree with me.

 

 

But YES! YES! The gun was still easy! Just not as fast at 50m+!

 

I would sell my account to get the first iteration back!

 

I mean, I managed to go 6 and 0 first time I used it in the prototype /d without a drop of sweat.

 

Now? Hardly different at all.

 

Please for the love of GOD switch it back to the first iteration.

 

 

Could some one explain what the "Less than 1%" part on the pie chart includes please?

I'm assuming it's linked to car kills and falling deaths, but would like to know for certain.

 

Read that big orange chart to the RIGHT of the piechart.


Edited by Raptros, 09 June 2015 - 12:12 PM.

 

WHAT DID YOU HONESTLY EXPECT THOUGH?

 

 

 


#25
Forum Warrior

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Tiggs could you put the other threads in their own sub-forum please? They aren't stickied, but they're still spamming up the forum.


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#26
Selias

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Finally!  Some data to peruse!  Thank you G1!  Now both sides of the discussion can't be as subjective!



#27
Pocket Heart

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OH MY GOD OK SO IM NOT CRAZY

 

I honestly thought I was wrong for a while, nobody wanted to agree with me.

 

 

But YES! YES! The gun was still easy! Just not as fast at 50m+!

 

I would sell my account to get the first iteration back!

 

 

My only problem with it was that it felt like a backwards nerf. It was still just as good in CQC and was only slowed down a little bit at further ranges. Once people realized the sky wasn't falling they would be right back at it with premades of 4 N-TECs.

 

The nerf was backwards, it should have been more heavily nerfed in CQC while retaining some power at long ranges, that's why I suggest a TTK nerf. The TTK combined with 2 round bursts would still be excellent at further ranges but would make it lose to actual CQC guns in CQC, which it has not in any iteration.

 

No version of the N-TEC has suffered even slightly against things like OCAs or PMGs.

 

I'm not even good at this game and I have felt every version of the N-TEC was easy mode to some degree or another. That's why I main it. Yes I said that.

 

That's why everyone else mains it too, they just won't admit it.


Edited by Pocket Heart, 09 June 2015 - 12:43 PM.

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#28
KickinAssChick

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Lets see how the new ntec is gona perform...

 

Then again when this gets pushed into real action districts, everyone will simply switch to JOKER SR VARIANTS !

 

BTW :- SMG_ ACES_SMG IS MISSING ?! (Or i missed it?)

 

Even now the Carbine is weapon of choice for many players. Good at short, medium and longish distance.


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#29
Vitanet

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edit


Edited by Vitanet, 09 June 2015 - 01:03 PM.


#30
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Why would you balance the guns after K:D? This is not COD, and testing the guns in fightclub gives you bad statistics because its not objective or team based.
Furthermore collecting the stats of bad players is useless, it should not be counted as its clogging up the numbers that matter.

One of the biggest issues imo is how powerfull the NTEC is <10 meters, and you have done nothing to change that.

Edited by pr0xiee, 09 June 2015 - 01:10 PM.


#31
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Chicken Little.

 

The gun wouldn't be useless, it would have a niche. Right now, even nerfed, it's still amazing at basically any range from 1-55 meters. I don't know what you guys are smoking to think this gun is objectively worse, it's still the easiest gun.

idk what you're smoking to think the gun is "easiest". Also the ntec being changed will just lead to straight carbines.


Army In White

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#32
Ardria

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I dont see why KD is something you balance. That has nothing to do with the weapon.

I had a 17-5 FC with my Anubis yesterday on the normal Baylan what are you gonna super nerf it now? no. It shouldnt matter.

Ntec rebalance is as simple as removing any benefit from tap firing it at all and like every other gun make the RNG within the spread of the full auto do work...Also the Hb2 rebalance was actually pretty good as well. But most ppl just use Cj3 anyways and still ttk no problem. Making it even more of an annoyance at close ranges. I personally found in the prototype that it was still a fine weapon to use. It didnt feel as OP which is good, but if you just slow down the tap fire a small bit (similar to how you would fire an ursus at range) it still hits near every shot. None of the other assault rifles perform like that. You tap fire a Star or a Far it still has the same spread accuracy. The issue to me is the ability of a constant stream of hits. Far you have to stop firing at range and burst if you wanna hit most your bullets at range. Star pretty much the same. Atac is a spray but clearly misses heaps of bullets. But ntec performance at range just hits shot after shot no problem. Which is still one of my main issues with it.

 

(I don't mean to sound like a d*ck, just someone whos been playing the game for a very long time who knows why its being ruined)


Edited by Ardria, 09 June 2015 - 02:11 PM.


#33
UpholdThePeace

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3. It's the Colby .45

 

 

I may be wrong but from APBDB and in-game info - the Colby Classic is the Colby Commander

The Colby .45 appears to be missing if this is the case. May just be bad wording on the graph however as I doubt the Commander is used that often, even so it's confusing.


Edited by UpholdThePeace, 09 June 2015 - 01:57 PM.

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#34
Rastel

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Personally I dont like 2 shoot burst. .to follow such a rytm takes away focus for me. To me the ntec is dead but its oki. My replacement makes for much more fun gameplay. ..I used to be a turret ntec user. ..now I move like I have flees :) the whole ntec nurf opened up so many New weapons to me:)

#35
Raptros

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My only problem with it was that it felt like a backwards nerf. It was still just as good in CQC and was only slowed down a little bit at further ranges. Once people realized the sky wasn't falling they would be right back at it with premades of 4 N-TECs.

 

The nerf was backwards, it should have been more heavily nerfed in CQC while retaining some power at long ranges, that's why I suggest a TTK nerf. The TTK combined with 2 round bursts would still be excellent at further ranges but would make it lose to actual CQC guns in CQC, which it has not in any iteration.

 

No version of the N-TEC has suffered even slightly against things like OCAs or PMGs.

 

I'm not even good at this game and I have felt every version of the N-TEC was easy mode to some degree or another. That's why I main it. Yes I said that.

 

That's why everyone else mains it too, they just won't admit it.

 

You've got a point.

 

For what its worth, I wish we'd switch back to the first iteration.

 

However, something to limit its cqc ability would be much better suited as a nerf.

 

Though, realistically, I doubt we'll ever see something like that.

 

So, I'll take what I can get, the 1st iteration...

 

If they even do THAT.


 

WHAT DID YOU HONESTLY EXPECT THOUGH?

 

 

 


#36
Chrispe

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Could you explain how if at all the bloom recovery was changed? I'm actually slightly confused still how the test ntec works after using it quite a while, but it honestly felt to me like you had to wait long enough after a 2 round burst that it was better to just tap fire. That is definitely true if the bloom recovery is still linear, but I couldn't actually figure out exactly how the bloom recovery works now.

Also aren't you getting bad data since people weren't entirely sure how to use the weapon after the changes and because of that many were probably using it differently than they will after fully figuring out the changes?

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#37
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Also can I point out the fact that the Carbine is lower than the Star.... How in the world is that even possible.... Unless of course new players are being factored in.


Edited by RespectThis / Selden, 09 June 2015 - 04:40 PM.

Army In White

Such a genius reply... Let us ALL play forcer so we can just kill pedestrians, and play with ourselves.

 


#38
Chrispe

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Also can I point out the fact that the Carbine is lower than the Star.... How in the world is that even possible.... Unless of course new players are being factored in.


I'm pretty sure the pie chart is from all non test districts so new players skew the star a lot higher than it is for say r100+ golds. They should probably look at that instead though because it would better show what decent players are using. I was pretty surprised that OCA was higher than pmg and how high shotguns are though.

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#39
Pragmatix

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:BanHammer:

 

Can't wait for them to nerf the Shaw just to spite you, Brian.......... :MadTongue:

 

Even the carbine is getting nerfed now, and once that happens the edgy carbine heroes are going to be using the Oscar. it'll probably get nerfed too at this rate, since many don't realize how good it is, or so it seems.



#40
Noob_Guardian

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Can't wait for them to nerf the Shaw just to spite you, Brian.......... :MadTongue:

 

Even the carbine is getting nerfed now, and once that happens the edgy carbine heroes are going to be using the Oscar. it'll probably get nerfed too at this rate, since many don't realize how good it is, or so it seems.

Except oscar isn't op?



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