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Idea for Bigger Staff at RP (No real cost)

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#1
Natsuyaki

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I think i have mention this idea 1-2 years ago and it got ignored. I hope this time it gets some more attention.

My idea to solve the lack of staff members at G1/RP is to hire players > freelancers who wants to do their job for "free"
When i say free ofc you will get benefits like:

Payments
- Ingame GC1
- Access to some programs
- Help design the game
- Help improve the game
- Help support the game more directly
- See that things get done.
- Fame and title
- Experience
- access to new content first hand !

As you can see G1/RP dont have to pay a single dime, and will only cost time.

Here goes my idea this can also be applied on Programmers and Artist.

Make a team of GM's with ranks

Head Gm > GM > GM helper
Head Programmer > Programmer
Head artist > Artist

Head Gm

This person is an actually G1/RP employee hes the person who reports to RP/G1 for changes and so on
He is also responsible for creating facilities to train GM helpers > GM's.
Head Gm is a "chairman" and has the right to fire > promote or demote a GM with approval of the council.

GM

This is a player who has been promoted due his reputation, work and dedication. he knows the game in and out and have contributed to improve the game. Gm main obligation is to patrol and train GM helpers. They are the mentor and supervisor of GM helpers > Forums > in game.
Their task is to maintain order and report to an head GM These player might be given more "power" to kick player off game "not ban" This function is reserved only to Head GM.

GM helper

A GM trainee, he knows the game and knows how to spot disturbing factors in game or on forums they have the right to report players and place them under surveillance. After a period they can be promoted to an GM if he/she have proven him/her self.
This person have no real ingame or forum powers, but he is a Representative of the GM staff and should behave as such. this is a testing period, if this individual
does not behave him/her self accordingly he/she will be remove of the team.

Benefits
With this i think you can solve a lot of > rage hackers > trolls and so on. It is cheap and easily set up given > time and some efforts in giving Name tag and limited Moderator rights.

When a player is suspected of hacking or showing disturbing behavior to the game or population. All evidence must be present to make an final verdict.
This evidence is either released private or publicly if head Gm deem worthy.

This should stop people in saying : WHY YOU BAN ME NO REASON ??? ME NO HACK bla bla
And other bonus the accused can see him/her caught right handed.


Notes:
An other side note, with this system if proof is "overwhelming" a HEAD GM can no longer be "biased" or pulling favor
he is obligated to do whats right. So no more "kissing up or be friends with GM in order to be ban free".
*this is ofc a opinion which some players feel that some Gm's or mods are pulling fav.


This is a simple system that i used when i was hosting a private server. No complains there, stable game > forums and community. And i had about 500-700 players.

And also benefit is that this will eliminate the spam on Ticket support since some cases are dealt with pretty swiftly.
hackers no longer can farm up to 1 mil before they are kicked or done enough damage

So In my eyes this is a simple but effective way to hire staff to fill in the gap, I know there are some Great artist and coders? Programmers out there. Who does it for a living or as a study Why not help them?

if G1/RP wants to rewards these people you can always send them a coupon or a cash card or a fruit basket anything.
There are a lot of players who wants to help and create a better APB.

So i hope you like this idea

P.S English isn't my native language so i apologize

Edited by Natsuyaki, 24 March 2014 - 10:10 AM.


#2
Nidd

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The single thing to sum everything up is:
They said they wont "hire" players already.

I have finally joined the ranks of people who don't play the game, but still lurk the forums.
I am deeply sorry.


#3
Natsuyaki

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The single thing to sum everything up is:
They said they wont "hire" players already.


And why and who said that? Some explanation would be good.

Otherwise i understand ALL hate,rant,flame,insults to G1/RP simply cause they don't want to change.

The are stupid if they wont do this, only benefits from this system

Edited by Natsuyaki, 24 March 2014 - 10:37 AM.


#4
gotitdone

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This has been kicked around six ways till Sunday, in the end it was decided that having non-employees with gm tools was too risky.

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of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.- Winston Churchill


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#5
MrChan

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Completely unworkable to have players as GMs.

Even with the best will in the world, and this has been demonstrated several times, players with equal experience and ability will simply differ on what they feel constitute definitive proof of hacking. And if you have two people with a different opinion about the same video, well they both can't be right, can they? And if they're both long-term players, you can't say 'only pick people who have been in the game for x amount of time'.
Someone could have 10000 hours in game and still make an incorrect decision, so G1 would have to have either observe the player themselves in addition to the player GM, or have some other way to determine he is cheating apart from a player GM watching him.

There's also a simple fact: Losing makes you angry. When you are angry you will be more likely make a mistake, such as banning the guy who beat you. And this only has to happen once to undermine confidence in the entire system and have all but the most blatant of cheaters successfully soapbox about how they were banned for being better than the GM.

And btw, you can GM away happily for months without making a single mistake, to the point of becoming trusted and revered among the Community and then still have a bad day or lose your tempter or make some mistake that gosh darns the whole lot up. So please don't say "that wouldn't happen because players would have to be GM Trainees and GM helpers first!!!"

At best, players could only become GM helpers, and could only refer players for further observation, and there could only be bans if there was some other evidence that G1 could see. So there'd be no real point to doing this, since we'd still need G1's existing staff and tools to do all the important work.

Edited by MrChan, 24 March 2014 - 03:13 PM.

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#6
Natsuyaki

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Completely unworkable to have players as GMs.

Even with the best will in the world, and this has been demonstrated several times, players with equal experience and ability will simply differ on what they feel constitute definitive proof of hacking. And if you have two people with a different opinion about the same video, well they both can't be right, can they? And if they're both long-term players, you can't say 'only pick people who have been in the game for x amount of time'.
Someone could have 10000 hours in game and still make an incorrect decision, so G1 would have to have either observe the player themselves in addition to the player GM, or have some other way to determine he is cheating apart from a player GM watching him.

There's also a simple fact: Losing makes you angry. When you are angry you will be more likely make a mistake, such as banning the guy who beat you. And this only has to happen once to undermine confidence in the entire system and have all but the most blatant of cheaters successfully soapbox about how they were banned for being better than the GM.

And btw, you can GM away happily for months without making a single mistake, to the point of becoming trusted and revered among the Community and then still have a bad day or lose your tempter or make some mistake that gosh darns the whole lot up. So please don't say "that wouldn't happen because players would have to be GM Trainees and GM helpers first!!!"

At best, players could only become GM helpers, and could only refer players for further observation, and there could only be bans if there was some other evidence that G1 could see. So there'd be no real point to doing this, since we'd still need G1's existing staff and tools to do all the important work.


Hi thank you for your reply,

Let me break it down for you, yes in my idea Gm's and GM helpers are normal players. I have seen form my own personal experiences that you don't hire players with physiological disorder. I have met tons of players in APB who are unstable but i have met some who have qualities in becoming a GM > Gm Helper.

If a player would apply for the job of becoming a GM helper they will go on a training program, how to behave and how to act.
If they fail or pass this testing period will reserve to the "Head GM" to decide. You just don't recruit a player they need to meet a criteria. How would G1/RP hire their Gm's ? They meet a certain requirements.

Oke given some players have their bad day. Everyone do, but is this a valid point ? I have seen a video of GM Rev going and misbehaving towards EpicGoat on a PM. That isn't professionally handled. His behavior then was like a child then an adult/ Staff member. So why isn't him stripped form his title?

Second. Like i said GM > GM helpers have NO power to ban players GM helpers only have the ability to flag (with their own eyes and report to GM on Teamspeak or w/e)
GM can then use "LIMITED" powers such has "invisibility and kick" He/she needs to report the person hacking towards GM with "VIDEO" proof.

Let me give you an example: During my time as a HEAD Gm at a WoW server we had an command for being "invisible to players"We can hide / stalk players who we think is hacking. We record and collect evidence. Then make a final judgement. Same can apply on APB i know THEY have this function in game.

*come one if a person is "snap all over the place' it's just obvious" dot need to be a rocket scientist here. example (epicgoat/Zblock) This system is to make sure "They can't BIASED" cause 1. from GM helper to GM and from GM to head GM i think during that line enough proof have been collected. Head GM can finalized their scan or check.

So yea i don't really see a down fall in this system. From my experience of "hacker/cheater" catcher in my WoW times.

Oke best case scenario: Player has done greatly and moved up in ranks. form GM helper > GM and he has given him title and powers. Oke let me ask you this. Will you really really screw things over? you have worked SO hard to be promoted just because you got pissed? by a player? Im sorry, I saw some Gm's playing APB they lose they win i dont see them go banning rampage.

WORSE case if the players "kick" an other player cause he pissed him/her off. there will be a review is it justified or is it just a revenge. penalty will come to that player depending. But like i said before you dont easily be promoted. Even you have a bad day, you can still behave professionally. Same when you work if a customer pisses you off you dont go PUNCH him/her in the face? you are calm and step away. Same as here.

P.S you dont recruit 14year olds to the team that is asking for troubles.


This has been kicked around six ways till Sunday, in the end it was decided that having non-employees with gm tools was too risky.


like i said "this is only a stripped down powers. Dont tell me programmers at RP/G1 can't even do this it's is a simple "Give who or what rights" Even a Wow private server have a nice box to tick who to give what powers.

Players only have the power to be invisible > kick > teleport.
And if you are afraid players would abuse it, then there are some problems here.

1. You did not give them sufficient training
2. You did not recruit and screen them sufficient for example (you dont give Epicgoat these powers)
3. You have an log in who uses what command
4. These powers wont break the game entirely since it's limited.

I dont really see what the problem is here, It takes training and screening. And you dont recruit the next best person who tends to give you this. (see picture)
If you do then it's your own fault.
Spoiler


Even i would understand who doesn't like a person whos kissing your patootie ?

Edited by Natsuyaki, 24 March 2014 - 11:34 PM.


#7
MrChan

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Let me break it down for you, yes in my idea Gm's and GM helpers are normal players. I have seen form my own personal experiences that you don't hire players with physiological disorder. I have met tons of players in APB who are unstable but i have met some who have qualities in becoming a GM > Gm Helper.

If a player would apply for the job of becoming a GM helper they will go on a training program, how to behave and how to act.
If they fail or pass this testing period will reserve to the "Head GM" to decide. You just don't recruit a player they need to meet a criteria. How would G1/RP hire their Gm's ? They meet a certain requirements.


I know exactly how GM recruitment works because like you I have been a GM before (not in APB, obviously). Someone can seem just fine during their training period, pass all their tests, pass probabtion, do everything absolutely perfectly during their GM Helper period. Then they'll be promoted to a GM and can still be caught on a bad night and ban someone they shouldn't, get drunk because their girlfriend left them and tell everyone to gosh darn off, or just plain out make a mistake that gets someone banned. With the toxic nature of this Community, one mistake would have half the forum decrying how player GMs are a failed system and it's full of Gold plated Silvers who are just mad because we're better than them blah blah blah whole load of drama that will undermine confidence in the whole system because this Community is full of sheep.

Or hell, if someone was really nefarious they could successfully fake the entire training period and helper period and then carry out as many vendettas as they can before they're stopped once they reach GM. It's easy for you to say that it won't go to people who have physiological disorders or are 14, but in reality, there are no guarantees whatsoever that you'll successfully weed out the bad apples. Someone could appear to you to be an ideal GM, but they might turn completely nasty once they have power. It's very hard to judge people over the internet. Having been a GM yourself, you should know this.

I tried to make this point in my original post, but I obviously wasn't clear enough.

Secondly, it's quite clear that having experience doesn't necessarily make you right about who is and isn't hacker, because there's been numerous occassions where several players who've been here since Open Beta or earlier have looked at a video allegedly showing someone cheating, and come to different conclusions. So that means some people, despite having thousands of hours in game can't judge what is and isn't hacking correctly. It'll be very very hard to assess everyone's ability to do that. Even someone who is mature, absolutely straight laced, is never in a bad mood, and always tries to make the right decision could just look at someone and make the wrong decision.

So for anything but the most obvious of hackers, the decision on whether or not to ban would have to be elevated to a member of G1 staff to crosscheck with whatever internal detection methods they have. That means player GMs cannot be allowed have the access to the banning tools, no matter how long they've been there, and no matter how good they were in their Training and Helper periods, because for most players they wouldn't be allowed take any action themselves.


That's why I don't think if players were ever brought in to help they could be allowed rise past the level of GM helper. And that would mean the actual decision making would still be with G1's staff, which isn't big enough.

Edited by MrChan, 25 March 2014 - 09:55 AM.

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#8
Seadee

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also.. time = money

creating a player review system like in LoL would work, but you would have to have a way of recording players during matches.. all players.. oh have a ghosting tool that cant be abused.. etc.. not in this iteration of the game i fear.

Edited by Seadee, 25 March 2014 - 10:07 AM.

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#9
Natsuyaki

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I know exactly how GM recruitment works because like you I have been a GM before (not in APB, obviously). Someone can seem just fine during their training period, pass all their tests, pass probabtion, do everything absolutely perfectly during their GM Helper period. Then they'll be promoted to a GM and can still be caught on a bad night and ban someone they shouldn't, get drunk because their girlfriend left them and tell everyone to gosh darn off, or just plain out make a mistake that gets someone banned. With the toxic nature of this Community, one mistake would have half the forum decrying how player GMs are a failed system and it's full of Gold plated Silvers who are just mad because we're better than them blah blah blah whole load of drama that will undermine confidence in the whole system because this Community is full of sheep.

Or hell, if someone was really nefarious they could successfully fake the entire training period and helper period and then carry out as many vendettas as they can before they're stopped once they reach GM. It's easy for you to say that it won't go to people who have physiological disorders or are 14, but in reality, there are no guarantees whatsoever that you'll successfully weed out the bad apples. Someone could appear to you to be an ideal GM, but they might turn completely nasty once they have power. It's very hard to judge people over the internet. Having been a GM yourself, you should know this.

I tried to make this point in my original post, but I obviously wasn't clear enough.

Secondly, it's quite clear that having experience doesn't necessarily make you right about who is and isn't hacker, because there's been numerous occassions where several players who've been here since Open Beta or earlier have looked at a video allegedly showing someone cheating, and come to different conclusions. So that means some people, despite having thousands of hours in game can't judge what is and isn't hacking correctly. It'll be very very hard to assess everyone's ability to do that. Even someone who is mature, absolutely straight laced, is never in a bad mood, and always tries to make the right decision could just look at someone and make the wrong decision.

So for anything but the most obvious of hackers, the decision on whether or not to ban would have to be elevated to a member of G1 staff to crosscheck with whatever internal detection methods they have. That means player GMs cannot be allowed have the access to the banning tools, no matter how long they've been there, and no matter how good they were in their Training and Helper periods, because for most players they wouldn't be allowed take any action themselves.


That's why I don't think if players were ever brought in to help they could be allowed rise past the level of GM helper. And that would mean the actual decision making would still be with G1's staff, which isn't big enough.


True, but doesn't applied for a real office job as-well. So if you are working at a office or any where. If you have a mommyty day will you go on a rampage there? There are rules of conduct, in your contract. G1/RP will draft a contract or the HEAD GM's will.

Players who sign them will agree with it, in breaking them will result of punishment > strip or kick out of the program.
And like i said players in my system HAVE no banning power WHAT So ever. Only thing they have is KICK thats all. But even that function is reserved only to extreme measure.

Yes i know that and yes i have seen during my time as a Admin/Gm but that's why my policy is not to hire underage kids. Sure given that people are at their home playing you don't know what they are doing behind the screen. BUT you can exspect a certain degree of professional behavior. I dont know how you run your team at your game, but i had structure, rules like a real team/working employees in a company. Like i said before Players who wear (Gm or GM helper tag) is "G1/RP employers" in a way. They have to behave like such. Head GM is the only one who is allowed to BAN

And you said something about baning or catching hackers. Like i said GM's or GM helpers are only there to REPORT and flag players. HEAD GM will review the proof gathered. And place a verdict. i Don't know how RP/G1 ban players i will asume they will scan and monitor the players for suspicious activity. Same can be for my idea.

For example GM receive player x as a cheater. GM monitors and records player x. Submits proof to HEAD GM for review. that person will place judgement in hacking or not. (or who determine who hacks at G1/RP)

Again i totally agree players should NOT have any banning rights. And i did not mention ANY where that they had. IF i did sorry for the confusion.

We can debate this form of "trust" and "behavior" it wont get us anywhere. As my current studies have taught me, reqruiting a person for an company is not a simple task. Sure if a person gets a good flag on every test and so on and receive a title of (GM). Why in gods name will he/she ruin it by drinking alcohol? or w/e sorry IF i would break up with my love LAST thing in my mind is to PLAY APB.

Don't confuse kids/teens with a adult job. that's how i see things, later i will start my own business and i wont hire a kid or person who has mental disorders. And even he would behave as such, sadly we have to say good bye to that person form the team. Simple.

again powers for the tags

GM > invisibility > kick > title and tag (KICKING IS NOT A BAN it's a MAX 1 hour kick) but used only for REALLY destructive players or situation

GM helper > Title and Tag > Patrol servers

Head GM is for example Tiggs etc >
Head GM or who ever is reviewing the current hackers reports SHOULD be checking that out. HEAD GM is the person who does that.

So GM reports and deliver proof to HEAD GM..HEAD GM will review the reports and consults with programmers anti-cheat or WHAT ever system G1/RP has for checking for hacks.

Edited by Natsuyaki, 25 March 2014 - 11:24 AM.


#10
Vipertechs

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Having been a GM and module designer/scripter for a Neverwinter Nights server I have seen seemingly responsible players corrupted by the power that promotion to being an assistant GM has induced and so they would need to have a person from RP dedicated to monitoring and directing the efforts of any external help.
The beauty of NWN was that the design toolset shipped with the game so players could make their own areas and worlds such as the Gallows Bird persistent world that Khaveen and others put together and which I later on became a part of. Player made submissions for inclusion into the PW had to be rigorously checked to make sure no broken scripts and back doors were included and I believe that only three of us had full access to the whole module information.

The wonderful thing about utilising the players to assist in design and development is that as players they bring a passion to make the game better, and the sense of ownership that the inclusion of their contributions bring means that their time is given freely without the restrictions of commercial pressure - they will spend hours or even whole days getting the fine details perfect where in the harsh reality of a design studio there has to be a compromise between time and productivity.

Managed well, RP could make something outstanding from the talent base available. As I said it would need tight control and discipline but for the cost of one salary they could gain the productivity of eight or ten people just on the design side of things.

The thing that makes it unlikely to happen is that potential contributors would have to be carefully screened with a proven clean history and would have to be invited based on their displayed ability to design rather than every Tom muscet and Harry clamouring to become part of it despite having no eye for detail. The overly toxic way many players seem to treat others is another reason RP would shy away from taking on players into the design fold - in that respect I can fully understand why they would want to keep their distance!

Edited by Vipertechs, 26 March 2014 - 03:47 AM.


#11
JamXmed

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now... I'm not 100% sure about this but i'm pretty certain that there is a law in place that makes hiring players or the like "Illegal" as there would have been no background check and the like.

Now i'm not 100% certain of the exact law but they've explained it before in another post. It's just not allowed and therefore, they won't do such a thing...

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#12
Scavenger*from*Joker

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No More Room In Hell runs like this. Random people make new content for it absolutely free just because they love the game and want to see things they love added to it. I mean someone just made a dope grass map from scratch and all he wanted was for people to know he made it.

tApJpyS.pngw a r f a r e a c t i v i t i e s | s p e c i a l i s t p r o t e c t i o n i n c
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