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So I really would be interested in seeing how LtL is currently perceived by the community and if/how they would like to see changes made. Everything I have listed here is just how I feel and I'd love to see how everyone else sees LtL in the current meta.

Nerfs

  • Reduce the PIG's Stun Damage (from 950 to 750)
    • With the PIG damage at 950, any player that was in a firefight within the last 8 seconds can pretty much always be one shot by the pig.
  • Reduce the Stun Grenade's Damage (from 1000 to 850)
    • I really feel that one shots have no place in APB, and this includes stun nades. A well timed grenade can stun any enemy not using flak, and can prevent the opposition from completing an objective from up to ~70m if the aim is right.


Buffs
  • Lower the stamina damage required to force walking (from ~950? to 800)
    • The NL9 already has an abysmal tts compared to most weapons' ttk in it's range. This would make that last shot much easier to land.
  • Increase the NL9 Health damage (from 200 to 225) 
    • This would be to alleviate some of the difficulty in finishing a kill against enemies using Clotting Agent 3.


QoL/Other
  • The arresting animation doesn't move the criminals hitbox from the crouched position while they're being arrested. This allows other criminal to shoot directly through them to the officer. (this was true a few months back, but I haven't had the chance to test in a while.)
  • I would love to see 1-2 slot versions of LtL weapons. Potentially as a Cop Rank 16 reward in the future?
  • Currently only weapons designated to stun actually cause another player to be stunned. This is most likely by design, but I'd love to see this expanded on in the future. Currently, only the Nano, DMR, and some explosive weapons/grenades can actually cause stuns outside of LtL weapons. In my eyes, this is a great way to provide a stronger purpose for the Heavy Barrel mod; perhaps this mod can be reworked to allow normal weapons to finish stunning an enemy. (Maybe even have it take the sacrificed health damage and convert it into extra stamina damage?)

If you don't feel like writing out a list or don't have any specific changes in mind questions like: "Why or why not use it?", "How do you feel fighting against it?", "How do you feel when you see a teammate with it?" are a decent place to still get some feedback. Edited by Leefekyn
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29 minutes ago, Leefekyn said:

Reduce the PIG's Stun Damage (from 950 to 750)

  • With the PIG damage at 950, any player that was in a firefight within the last 8 seconds can pretty much always be one shot by the pig.

 

Totally agree
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if stun nades lose their one shot ability at least set them to 990 stamina like concussions 990 health damage

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6 minutes ago, BXNNXD said:

if stun nades lose their one shot ability at least set them to 990 stamina like concussions 990 health damage

The only reason I didn't feel that was necessary was because of gravity damage. Health damage after concussions can answer that with Happy Landings, but you'll still be stunned if you fall after getting hit with a stun grenade.

As long as it's not one shot, and allows good follow up with the NL9, TG-8, and CCG, I feel like it'll be fixed.
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I'm new to stuns and LTL but from what I have experienced with the stun weapons from both using them and seeing them used is I agree that the PIG needs a nerf but only due to the meta of sprinkling some damage on a Criminal then slamming them with a stun. I can never time my stun grenades enough to weigh in on that argument though. 

My main concern with LTL is that I feel bad for the Criminals that do get arrested. They've either got to sit there and wait in such an embarrassing pose or get humiliatingly killed once arrested. I just want to level up Cop, but I've got to play this way to earn it, I try to be nice, but there just doesn't seem to be a nice way out of the stun-arrest-repeat cycle, at least for the Criminals, I can't go a match without someone getting angry over it. 

I understand why the wait timer is long, to give the other Criminals a chance to save them, but while I don't have the stats I imagine that saves from arrests are probably quite rare. 

What I'm trying to say is I'd like to give Criminals access to LTL, or something similar, maybe poison attacks? Instead of getting arrested the Enforcer writhes on the ground vomiting their eyes out their ears or something. 

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You already know my opinion on these changes but i'll just list em here again:
Have the stun grenade do the same amount of stun as the frag or Cap would do health damage.
The pig already provides enough risk at 10m max for the reward of providing a much easier stun. Moreso the lengthty 2~ish second reload and one shot per magazine provides plenty of time for the opponent to kill you, even moreso if they have teammates to rescue them from the stun.

 

My main concern with LTL is that I feel bad for the Criminals that do get arrested. They've either got to sit there and wait in such an embarrassing pose or get humiliatingly killed once arrested.
What I'm trying to say is I'd like to give Criminals access to LTL, or something similar, maybe poison attacks? Instead of getting arrested the Enforcer writhes on the ground vomiting their eyes out their ears or something. 

1. You already get penalized for killing arrested criminals. There's nothing to feel bad about here. You're handicapping yourself and your team by leaning on the stun dmg more than you would health.
2. No. Moreso, what the -fuck- would criminals do with LTL? Edited by LazyLizard

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41 minutes ago, LazyLizard said:

 

2. No. Moreso, what the -fuck- would criminals do with LTL?
realise how crappy LTL is and never use it again.

PIG nerfs? for a weapon with exactly 10m range, what nonsense. If people stop facehugging everything would be fine.
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I support the PIG and Grenade nerf. It's really silly and you actually did't even need to be in a firefight to get oneshot by it. Normal dropdown from a 1-story already screws you...


I feel like the buff should rather be to 850 for walking speed to not make it 2 shot for the NL9 and 6 shot for the CCG though.
It's not supposed to rival the normal guns effectiveness. It's supposed to be a weaker niche.

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4 hours ago, LazyLizard said:

1. You already get penalized for killing arrested criminals. There's nothing to feel bad about here. You're handicapping yourself and your team by leaning on the stun dmg more than you would health.

2. No. Moreso, what the -fuck- would criminals do with LTL?
1. I'll try. 
2. They'll give us a taste of our own medicine. A successful arrest takes a criminal out of play for longer time than killing them would, so to me it makes it fair for criminals to do the same to enforcers, it can be really powerful if in a small area control mission and you stun and arrest both enemies, they're stuck in timeout while you keep getting points. It was just an idea.

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2 hours ago, TheJellyGoo said:

I support the PIG and Grenade nerf. It's really silly and you actually did't even need to be in a firefight to get oneshot by it. Normal dropdown from a 1-story already screws you...

 
-snip-
I feel like the buff should rather be to 850 for walking speed to not make it 2 shot for the NL9 and 6 shot for the CCG though.
It's not supposed to rival the normal guns effectiveness. It's supposed to be a weaker niche.
As lily pointed out "PIG nerfs? for a weapon with exactly 10m range, what nonsense. If people stop facehugging everything would be fine."

As for OfficerKovacs: No, just..no.
DK5I8IZ.gif Edited by LazyLizard

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LTL is fine, leave it alone. The time it takes to arrest compensates for the percieved inbalance. Feel free to argue, I won't be paying attention.

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"My argument beats your argument so don't even bother because you can't change my mind because I am never wrong..."

X fucking D.

It was so peaceful without you around.. why'd you have to come back

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Just now, Tobii said:

"My argument beats your argument so don't even bother because you can't change my mind because I am never wrong..."

X fucking D.

It was so peaceful without you around.. why'd you have to come back

I didn't come back, I came front.

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1 hour ago, LazyLizard said:
As lily pointed out "PIG nerfs? for a weapon with exactly 10m range, what nonsense. If people stop facehugging everything would be fine."
[...]
"Just don't get close" doesn't work as an argument in a game which involves pushing towards an objective (or player in that regard) most of the time.
It's also a secondary - same issue as with Yukon - "just don't get close" doesn't negate the apparent issue! Next argument is just don't get hit or just don't die or what? Edited by TheJellyGoo
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i’d be fine with a pig nerf to 850, but i honestly don’t see the big deal, we have the strife doing 950 with a faster rof/more range and no one complains about it

concs should go no lower than 990 stamina damage (stamina equivalent of concs), iirc stun grenades have a smaller max damage radius anyway
 

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I'm not sure if it's possible since it doesn't show up on the killfeed, but I'd love to see all LTL weapons (and grenades) ranked from most stuns caused to least. It really feels like PIG and percs dominate the entire LTL meta (if such a thing even exists), whereas when it comes down to lethal weapons, primaries such as the N-Tec dominate. 
 

32 minutes ago, BXNNXD said:

i’d be fine with a pig nerf to 850, but i honestly don’t see the big deal, we have the strife doing 950 with a faster rof/more range and no one complains about it

concs should go no lower than 990 stamina damage (stamina equivalent of concs), iirc stun grenades have a smaller max damage radius anyway
 


The Strife is a primary, has pellet spread, twice the equip time... I don't think it's a fair comparison, if anything it shows how bad the Strife is. The fact that there's no lethal workalike to the PIG makes it hard to balance. Surely the Showstopper will help in that regard but once more shotgun spread is a factor, and I very much doubt it will reach PIG levels of damage even at maximum pellet count. 

On the other hand, the TG-8 is pretty much ideally balanced, since it's almost equal to the FBW except for ranges where it doesn't even make sense to stun anyone.  Edited by Lyfeld

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pig is a 1 shot then reload with a very small range, you miss that shot and youre basically dead, as someone else said leave LTL alone, enforcers still need to run over to you to arrest you and your buds can still save you after youre arrested, idk how often people get pig+percked but i dont find it hard to avoid whenever i play as crim even though i use cqc weapons a lot, arresting requires you to take time and possibly expose yourself to more open areas. 

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2 hours ago, OfficerKovacs said:
1. I'll try. 
2. They'll give us a taste of our own medicine. A successful arrest takes a criminal out of play for longer time than killing them would, so to me it makes it fair for criminals to do the same to enforcers, it can be really powerful if in a small area control mission and you stun and arrest both enemies, they're stuck in timeout while you keep getting points. It was just an idea.
iirc the time to spawn from being arrested was masively reduced and isn't long anymore at all.
1 hour ago, TheJellyGoo said:
"Just don't get close" doesn't work as an argument in a game which involves pushing towards an objective (or player in that regard) most of the time.
It's also a secondary - same issue as with Yukon - "just don't get close" doesn't negate the apparent issue! Next argument is just don't get hit or just don't die or what?

it still is, the pig user needs to get close, or you, and if you know this just don't get close stupidly and get predamaged, a single pig shot doesn't stun you unless you make derp moves (aka tactical bad chocie) as shown in your video.
44 minutes ago, Lyfeld said:

I


On the other hand, the TG-8 is pretty much ideally balanced, since it's almost equal to the FBW except for ranges where it doesn't even make sense to stun anyone. 
fbw also has better mobility as it is more accurate durng movement,

tg8 felt nice before the dropoff mechanics, after it it was a pointless epaon soemtimes not even able to shoot over some of the wider roads Edited by LilyV3
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Remove stamina damage from all nades beside the stun nade. Perc-PIG is a broken over used non intended mechanic in the game. If enforcers want to LTL they shouldnt be able to prenade with yolos and other nades to make you more vulnerable to stuns. The movement speed penalty when you get hit by the PIG is way too much also. Very difficult to be able to move into cover or even fight back when you're so immobilized. 

Perc-PIG was never intended to be in the game and has been abused too long. Don't let people crutch on broken mechanics. 

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I guess people have forgotten this :
Criminals DID have LTL and it caused some unbalances so the crim stun weapons were removed for it.

One unbalance was crims have ram raiding to make money while enforcers have LTL. When crims also had LTL enforcers had a significant loss of income and could not make money on their faction and resulted in a wide gross count of more criminals than enforcers joining due to money alone.
We can not have a full district on both sides if we go back to that again. No thank you.

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17 minutes ago, Fortune Runner said:

I guess people have forgotten this :
Criminals DID have LTL and it caused some unbalances so the crim stun weapons were removed for it.

One unbalance was crims have ram raiding to make money while enforcers have LTL. When crims also had LTL enforcers had a significant loss of income and could not make money on their faction and resulted in a wide gross count of more criminals than enforcers joining due to money alone.
We can not have a full district on both sides if we go back to that again. No thank you.

+1

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1 hour ago, Fortune Runner said:

I guess people have forgotten this :
Criminals DID have LTL and it caused some unbalances so the crim stun weapons were removed for it.

One unbalance was crims have ram raiding to make money while enforcers have LTL. When crims also had LTL enforcers had a significant loss of income and could not make money on their faction and resulted in a wide gross count of more criminals than enforcers joining due to money alone.
We can not have a full district on both sides if we go back to that again. No thank you.

Faulty logic.
It's not like criminals could do both at the same time. So how could there be a "significant loss of income" between both having ltl or criminals with the addition of ramraiding which they still have.
If there was such an imbalance as suggested by you it would still exist till now which would make the removal of crim ltl redundant. Does the imbalance as claimed by you still exist?
I also fail to see all those moneymaking enforcer with their ltl weapons - afterall as you said everyone played criminals just for money making sake when they had ltl.
And last - I remember the old times with enforcers paroling just looking for those ramraiders for some quick buck... that's another source of income for enforcers - the fastest in the game!
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Faulty logic? These were statements by G1 and the community back then. A bit hostile right out of the gate aren't you? Also I noticed you are making presumptions over what I said. Please re-read.

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