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MasterTheHero

Little Orbit should have just started from scratch.

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Good point... considering how long they take on fixing this crap, they might as well just started from scrap.

Sounds like they will take almost a decade to complete their patched up project, less than it actually needs to make a game.

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I suppose to clarify, I did work at R* for a time in their cutscene department. I know first hand what a monumental task it is to build a game. There would be certain months where everything in the build would crash simply because something wasn't right with the lighting engine or the buggy animation editor wasn't finished and therefore led to asserts.

 

But APB is nowhere near the scale of a Grand Theft Auto or Red Dead game. APB has a financial district, waterfront district, asylum, social district, and a few fight club maps.

 

I also remember the APB guys saying that RTW had made the maps as one giant mesh rather than a Lego block of assets which was completely bizarre to me back then.

 

I know that game dev isn't easy but at the same time I don't feel like APB is nearly as complicated as any of the other games in the market. The only thing that differentiates APB from other games is that designer. The character creator, emblem designer, car customization, is still one of the best out there. But asides from customization what is really unique about APB besides cops and robbers?

 

A GTA modder could easily recreate everything in APB with the exception of the emblem and character designer which would take a significant amount of work.

 

APB is no longer the unique snowflake it was when it first released. Creating an instanced matchmaking system of cops vs. robbers is amateur hour compared to the things video games can do now. No other open world game has implemented the logo designer into their games, but Forza motorsport has and so has most racing games. It's only going to be a matter of time before the character customization and custom emblems become something a triple A game supports.

 

This game is awfully old and the technology is far outpacing the development of what APB can support. I mean, are we really going to expect this game to have the longevity of Everquest 2, World of Warcraft? If they don't get this engine update out and start delivering new content, I honestly don't see how Little Orbit can hope to make APB profitable again. My friends and I loved to play APB and we always took the time to tag those graffiti spots. But with the way development of this engine "update" is going, I feel like APB's engine update will deliver at the same day that Star Citizen officially launches . . . which is never.

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On 5/22/2021 at 2:03 PM, MasterTheHero said:

For the past 11 years, the first 5 spent playing the game. I have been lurking on the APB forums, reading updates from Matt, following blog posts, all in the vain hope of finally seeing that the engine update is released.

 

Three years after Little Orbit has taken over this still hasn't happened.

 

I do not understand why these game devs think they could reverse engineer APB's code into NOT EVEN the newest engine of Unreal. It is painfully apparent that Real Time Worlds coded the game in a way that would only work with the Unreal Engine it was built in. Every week I read Matt's engine tracker updates and all I see is problem after problem in regards to making this game work. It's too old, it was never built properly to begin with, and I think Little Orbit is wasting time trying to make this game work.

 

The amount of time invested into upgrading the engine should have been spent rebuilding APB from scratch with the Unreal 4 codebase or a different engine altogether.

 

The code was not built correctly, plain and simple. If it were built correctly, then APB would be in the same boat as Grand Theft Auto Online which is using the RAGE engine version built during GTA IV. Their engine is not perfect and it certainly has a lot of limitations, but the code to upgrade it and continue to develop it is on a solid foundation. That same GTA IV engine was used to develop Red Dead Redemption 2. Funnily enough, I believe horses were listed under vehicles and there was still some code for airplanes that weren't used in RDR2.

 

My concern now is that I fear Little Orbit will now run into the investors fallacy. Where they've spent so much money on trying to make something work they will continue throwing money into it even though it's never going to pan out. This is how I feel about APB.

 

Instead of trying to glue together a broken egg shell, Little Orbit should consider transferring their resources into developing APB 2 and just put APB 1 on maintenance mode.

 

Reasons why Little Orbit should focus on developing APB 2 instead:

 

1.) Good will with APB is already tarnished. The terrible launch on consoles already left a bitter taste in most gamers mouths who didn't know anything about APB.

2.) The engine update isn't even going to dramatically increase graphic fidelity. The screenshots that were released with the "engine update" is the equivalent of an HD remaster of a game. And with the way development has been going, stability won't be improved due to spaghetti code.

3.) Veteran players have been playing the same maps for 11 years. There's no freaking way new players will stand a chance against the vets. When I was matched against a new player, I was dominating the poor kid without even trying. So rather than let him get discouraged, I change my guns (nerfed myself) and played less competitively. I heard him get excited over voice chat when he was finally able to beat me. I shouldn't have to play worse so that new players don't leave.

4.) With all the experience Little Orbit has gained in the development of APB, all that experience can be transferred over into developing an engine that is stable, clean, modable, and offer better performance than the current one. Leave the original APB in maintenance mode, continue to run your events, and build a competent codebase that can be upgraded in the same way as Rockstar's RAGE engine.

just stop

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I don't know if anyone else remembers this but many years ago this guy was supposedly making their own Apb that had all the old stuff like no pay to win, old login screen and they were going to host their own servers apparently, but I can't find a trace of that anywhere 

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LO should have focused on improving game's performance instead of new engine....

 

I cant believe i can play apex legends at 1920x1080 (min graphics) while streaming with an average of 140-170fps and here in APB I have to play 1024x768 with only 100fps average(not streaming).

 

 

 

Edited by Uhtdred

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been preaching this for years. there is probably some senior moron on the team that kept saying, naw we should do it this way, no this way is better, nah we can upgrade engine 3.5 faster...

at the time maybe this was true, but after this much time? guys cmon...

 

the spaghetti code mess they are trying to "update" so that new content/upgrades can be rolled out easier is taking longer then 11 years.

the messed up engine they are trying to patch is TWO generations behind what the industry is capable of.

as time goes by, the tools get better and better to put out wonderful content for less time/effort put in.

 

what is happening now in apb dev is a prime example of sunk cost fallacy, 11 years in the gutter. yall devs are showing off an unlit rendered sphere that looks like it belongs in 2003 LMAO.

stop wasting everyones time, get rid of those devs that are holding up progress, hire some new people and start over already.

your not going to need those dinosaurs when you switch over to ue4 or EVEN UNITY AT THIS POINT.

 

don't forget you devs just spent some time reimporting all your assets, could have used that time reimporting assets in something new.

with the team you guys have it shoulda taken you 4-5 years to put out a new version of APB on modern tech...

instead you are taking twice that amount of time to.... update ancient technology to what??? less ancient technology ?????

 

🙈

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On 5/26/2021 at 7:17 PM, Uhtdred said:

LO should have focused on improving game's performance instead of new engine....

 

I cant believe i can play apex legends at 1920x1080 (min graphics) while streaming with an average of 140-170fps and here in APB I have to play 1024x768 with only 100fps average(not streaming).

 

 

 

The reason for this is that the old engine is incapable of utilizing modern PC hardware (among other things). Besides the engine itself, game development has significantly improved over the last decade (keep in mind APB is over a decade old at this point). Comparing APBs performance to such a modern title is not only unfair and pointless, but also very ignorant. If you want to criticize LO there is plenty, but at least do your research.

 

@OP

 

I work in development (not in gaming, but I studied game development in university) and even minor projects (miniscule compared to making a full fledged game) take a lot of resources. The first time around APB had millions to go with. I'll refrain from using the 100 mil figure because it's not accurate. Not even close to that amount went into development alone (look it up). It is however reasonable to assume that it had way more resources than LO could ever muster.

 

Now keep in mind this was over 10 years ago. The cost for making APB from scratch would at a minimum be the same but (based on my experience so take with a grain of salt) most likely even more today. It is far more reasonable for LO to try and recycle so to say.

 

Not to mention that this post is exceptionally greedy and clearly made from frustration (which is justifiable). The game almost got shut down twice, two new companies picked it up. This is the best it's going to get. Does APB deserve a from scratch approach? Perhaps, but given the history of the game we should all be thankful that where we are is where we are.

 

The time for dreams and wishful thinking is over, be more realistic please. You will only torture yourself by doing that. At this point you just wait and see what the result is. 

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Anyone that asks me about this topic I always respond in the same way.

 

Gamerfirst SHOULD have NEVER spoken about the potential or possibilty of an engine update. They ruined it for everyone, not little orbit but  gamerfirst. The ONLY good thing that came from gamerlast's leadership was the recuite a friend, and the toxic or was it the venom event oh wait and the damage drop off implement.

 

They duked on the notoriety system for criminals and enforcers, pretty much walled off every rooftop in financial, re-working certain spots without even knowing their strengths and weaknesses. They messed up the ranking system which never fully recovered and If you cant recall what I'm talking about. There was a time when you would win a game and de rank to green or loose and rank up to gold. They "fixed" it but....yea....right...

Edited by Fruitini

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Agree about the idea to make an APB 2. Well there are only 2 ways from make APB great in a normal opinion.

-First One: Engine Update + Game Updates like cars, maps guns...

-Secon One: make an APB 2 if the first one still a lot of years and time...

Edited by JOSELA

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13 hours ago, VanilleKeks said:

The reason for this is that the old engine is incapable of utilizing modern PC hardware (among other things). Besides the engine itself, game development has significantly improved over the last decade (keep in mind APB is over a decade old at this point). Comparing APBs performance to such a modern title is not only unfair and pointless, but also very ignorant. If you want to criticize LO there is plenty, but at least do your research.

 

@OP

 

I work in development (not in gaming, but I studied game development in university) and even minor projects (miniscule compared to making a full fledged game) take a lot of resources. The first time around APB had millions to go with. I'll refrain from using the 100 mil figure because it's not accurate. Not even close to that amount went into development alone (look it up). It is however reasonable to assume that it had way more resources than LO could ever muster.

 

Now keep in mind this was over 10 years ago. The cost for making APB from scratch would at a minimum be the same but (based on my experience so take with a grain of salt) most likely even more today. It is far more reasonable for LO to try and recycle so to say.

 

Not to mention that this post is exceptionally greedy and clearly made from frustration (which is justifiable). The game almost got shut down twice, two new companies picked it up. This is the best it's going to get. Does APB deserve a from scratch approach? Perhaps, but given the history of the game we should all be thankful that where we are is where we are.

 

The time for dreams and wishful thinking is over, be more realistic please. You will only torture yourself by doing that. At this point you just wait and see what the result is. 

Realistically, this game is not going to survive if they don't do something drastic to make this game relevant again. If they don't get the engine update done and start working on adding new maps and content, this game is going to go the way of the Avengers and become a low pop waste land of vets vs. vets.

 

With all the issues they are having in just getting the game updated to an old version of Unreal, the amount of resources they spent into the engine upgrade is most likely getting close to equal the cost it would have taken to start the game from scratch while using some of the original source code for reference.

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8 hours ago, Fruitini said:

pretty much walled off every rooftop in financial

Most rooftops that had their access removed were completely broken (balance-wise). Others were essentially impossible to access in any reasonable way, which made them basically exploit locations. RG/G1 did so much wrong, but don't try to blame them for shit if you don't know what you're talking about.

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1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

Most rooftops that had their access removed were completely broken (balance-wise). Others were essentially impossible to access in any reasonable way, which made them basically exploit locations. RG/G1 did so much wrong, but don't try to blame them for shit if you don't know what you're talking about.

given that we saw g1 do extensive map rebalancing for more than one problem area, i think its totally valid to blame them for just "giving up" and walling off others

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2 hours ago, xiphos said:

given that we saw g1 do extensive map rebalancing for more than one problem area, i think its totally valid to blame them for just "giving up" and walling off others

Moving around a doodad or two (which is all they ever really did) is not "extensive". For most of those roofs, they would have to add entire new sections of traversable map that would allow proper counterplay, and those sections would in turn need to be playtested extensively to ensure that they are also balanced.

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This is what I've been thinking for a while now. I genuinely think it would've been a better use of time (and money) to just work on an APB 2 rather than trying to upgrade the original game. I get that it would require even more time and money but at least they wouldn't be wasting their time trying to fix what can't be fixed. And even when (if, possibly?) the engine upgrade comes out, it will not be what revives the game. I used to think otherwise, but I think it's more clear now than ever that this game will remain a relic of the past. The only future I can envision, that is bright, is through a completely new game. Just my opinion, I'm sure people will disagree. Either way though, I do care enough to keep following the progress cause I genuinely do hope LO can make something of this mess.

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Isn't it possible to export the assets/textures from APB:R and use it for APB 2? I am not a game developer so idk if that even would be easy.

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On 5/31/2021 at 11:28 PM, Hexerin said:

Moving around a doodad or two (which is all they ever really did) is not "extensive". For most of those roofs, they would have to add entire new sections of traversable map that would allow proper counterplay, and those sections would in turn need to be playtested extensively to ensure that they are also balanced.

off the top of my head teng, suji, fin enf money dropoff, and the skate park all involved actual map changes, not simple prop movement, so i still think its fair to blame g1 for not putting in equal effort across the board

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How about Matt buys Wildstar instead?

Played it for two weeks in 2014 and it was fun.

 

The engine is ok, old devs just couldn't handle regular content updates.

Edited by Gro

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1 hour ago, Gro said:

How about Matt buys Wildstar instead?

Played it for two weeks in 2014 and it was fun.

 

The engine is ok, old devs just couldn't handle regular content updates.

Also zmr could be a nice one.

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4 hours ago, Gro said:

How about Matt buys Wildstar instead? Played it for two weeks in 2014 and it was fun. The engine is ok, old devs just couldn't handle regular content updates.

Day one install, and would be slotted solidly as my #2 priority for luxury spending after my #1 (Arknights). A friend of mine would also hop in without hesitation (and would also spend money). There's 2-3 other people I know who might hop on it too.

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On 5/22/2021 at 7:03 PM, MasterTheHero said:

For the past 11 years, the first 5 spent playing the game. I have been lurking on the APB forums, reading updates from Matt, following blog posts, all in the vain hope of finally seeing that the engine update is released.

 

Three years after Little Orbit has taken over this still hasn't happened.

 

I do not understand why these game devs think they could reverse engineer APB's code into NOT EVEN the newest engine of Unreal. It is painfully apparent that Real Time Worlds coded the game in a way that would only work with the Unreal Engine it was built in. Every week I read Matt's engine tracker updates and all I see is problem after problem in regards to making this game work. It's too old, it was never built properly to begin with, and I think Little Orbit is wasting time trying to make this game work.

 

The amount of time invested into upgrading the engine should have been spent rebuilding APB from scratch with the Unreal 4 codebase or a different engine altogether.

 

The code was not built correctly, plain and simple. If it were built correctly, then APB would be in the same boat as Grand Theft Auto Online which is using the RAGE engine version built during GTA IV. Their engine is not perfect and it certainly has a lot of limitations, but the code to upgrade it and continue to develop it is on a solid foundation. That same GTA IV engine was used to develop Red Dead Redemption 2. Funnily enough, I believe horses were listed under vehicles and there was still some code for airplanes that weren't used in RDR2.

 

My concern now is that I fear Little Orbit will now run into the investors fallacy. Where they've spent so much money on trying to make something work they will continue throwing money into it even though it's never going to pan out. This is how I feel about APB.

 

Instead of trying to glue together a broken egg shell, Little Orbit should consider transferring their resources into developing APB 2 and just put APB 1 on maintenance mode.

 

Reasons why Little Orbit should focus on developing APB 2 instead:

 

1.) Good will with APB is already tarnished. The terrible launch on consoles already left a bitter taste in most gamers mouths who didn't know anything about APB.

2.) The engine update isn't even going to dramatically increase graphic fidelity. The screenshots that were released with the "engine update" is the equivalent of an HD remaster of a game. And with the way development has been going, stability won't be improved due to spaghetti code.

3.) Veteran players have been playing the same maps for 11 years. There's no freaking way new players will stand a chance against the vets. When I was matched against a new player, I was dominating the poor kid without even trying. So rather than let him get discouraged, I change my guns (nerfed myself) and played less competitively. I heard him get excited over voice chat when he was finally able to beat me. I shouldn't have to play worse so that new players don't leave.

4.) With all the experience Little Orbit has gained in the development of APB, all that experience can be transferred over into developing an engine that is stable, clean, modable, and offer better performance than the current one. Leave the original APB in maintenance mode, continue to run your events, and build a competent codebase that can be upgraded in the same way as Rockstar's RAGE engine.

 

What experience? I doubt they have the talent pool to make a game like APB from scratch. Have you seen the other type of games they have developed before taking over? 

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On 5/31/2021 at 4:04 AM, VanilleKeks said:

The reason for this is that the old engine is incapable of utilizing modern PC hardware (among other things). Besides the engine itself, game development has significantly improved over the last decade (keep in mind APB is over a decade old at this point). Comparing APBs performance to such a modern title is not only unfair and pointless, but also very ignorant. If you want to criticize LO there is plenty, but at least do your research.

 

@OP

 

I work in development (not in gaming, but I studied game development in university) and even minor projects (miniscule compared to making a full fledged game) take a lot of resources. The first time around APB had millions to go with. I'll refrain from using the 100 mil figure because it's not accurate. Not even close to that amount went into development alone (look it up). It is however reasonable to assume that it had way more resources than LO could ever muster.

 

Now keep in mind this was over 10 years ago. The cost for making APB from scratch would at a minimum be the same but (based on my experience so take with a grain of salt) most likely even more today. It is far more reasonable for LO to try and recycle so to say.

 

Not to mention that this post is exceptionally greedy and clearly made from frustration (which is justifiable). The game almost got shut down twice, two new companies picked it up. This is the best it's going to get. Does APB deserve a from scratch approach? Perhaps, but given the history of the game we should all be thankful that where we are is where we are.

 

The time for dreams and wishful thinking is over, be more realistic please. You will only torture yourself by doing that. At this point you just wait and see what the result is. 

every game I know (even older games than APB) benefit from lowering resolution down to 1024x768 except APB.

 

You just wrote all those sentences for NOTHING.

Edited by Uhtdred

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APB have very much primitive Scripts (world decoration is ultra low and cheap).

Vehicle System is simple, most of free content in UE4 Marketplace can do the same.

Weapons and Animations are easy too.

 

Only Character (+clothing) and Vehicle customisation is a big work.

 

Matchmaker dont exist, AI dont exist. Only AI drivable Vehicles (can be added later).

Mission System is a bit work (based on world decoration by simple actors based on).

 

All sounds and most textures can be recyclet.

Only world decorarion takes the most time (to make it with a fine look).

 

It takes lesser time to make APB 2 with UE4/5 instead of rework APB 1.1 (2.0).

 

Make it early access and lets go, before GTA 6 is coming out.

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On 5/31/2021 at 6:34 PM, Hexerin said:

but don't try to blame them for shit if you don't know what you're talking about.

 I've dumped so much time into this smoldering dumpster fire it's unimaginable. I know exactly what I'm talking about, YOU just didn't know how to handle those "over powered spots" I don't know what groups you played with but I must of been blessed to never have to worried about them.

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On 6/4/2021 at 1:46 AM, Todesklinge said:

APB have very much primitive Scripts (world decoration is ultra low and cheap).

Vehicle System is simple, most of free content in UE4 Marketplace can do the same.

Weapons and Animations are easy too.

 

Only Character (+clothing) and Vehicle customisation is a big work.

 

Matchmaker dont exist, AI dont exist. Only AI drivable Vehicles (can be added later).

Mission System is a bit work (based on world decoration by simple actors based on).

 

All sounds and most textures can be recyclet.

Only world decorarion takes the most time (to make it with a fine look).

 

It takes lesser time to make APB 2 with UE4/5 instead of rework APB 1.1 (2.0).

 

Make it early access and lets go, before GTA 6 is coming out.

It sounds so easy when you describe that, feel free to start maybe? 

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