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ScLines

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Posts posted by ScLines

  1. Posted · Edited by ScLines

    Quote

     

    "Player can gamble, including betting or wagering real cash or currency"

    This likely refers to literal direct gambling like online casinos. APB would fall under simulated gambling as would most lootboxes due to the items having no tangible real world value. Hell in yongyea's video the report he is citing has to argue that people trading things for money outside the company is as close as it gets to real world gambling.

     

    Uhu. Either APB will get an AO-like rating from all other rating agencies like everybody else or not have them at all to avoid that rating. Currently it is a big program that minors/adolescents are exposed to these gambling-like mechanics. It is a problem with regulation sadly.

     

    Quote

    The stories are pretty weak. You have 1 story of a game rated young having a roulette style minigame, another where 3% of young teenagers had used an illegally operating betting website and then kids teasing each other over having less fancy skins(and parents overreacting to their bad sob stories). Also your first video is just yongyea going over a recommendation to the government regarding video games in general and they have 1 section talking about 'financial harms' that isn't conclusive about anything. The second video is surface level exploring of monetization and psychological states. The 3rd is just referencing the second video so it's not just anecdotes. All the people harmed in every single one of these are adults and not a single child, but the fear they were 'exposed'.

    May seem weak to you but you can play coy all you want but these predatory monetizations still existing is still a problem. It doesn't really change things too much as minors/adolescents and people with addiction problems are affected by these bad video game designs to begin with due to no gambling regulations. Some people sympathize with developers trying to make a profit but I disagree. You should make a good game that should not revolve around microtransactions like loot boxes which are gambling. If you will not take away that, then I think developers need to follow gambling rules and regulations if when that does take place. Belgium did just that and several companies refused to be involved in those new regulations. To me, that is the way to go.

     

    Quote

    The stories are pretty few and far between. The thing is they all follow the same smart principle where it is a person who is unable to control their spending and will spend spend spend. This isn't new to people or unique to video games as it's just a person who is addicted to spending on something which you can find in literally anything. Shockingly someone crying that they spent all their money on stuff they will never actually own or have any tangible possession of without being scammed just isn't that compelling unless they are inputting crazy stories.

    Preying on people with shopping addictions isn't new either isn't it? It's just another new low the video game industry are willing to sink into when this didn't have to exist in the first place like the old days. And you don't seem to take the issue with people with shopping/gambling addictions as seriously as what you are saying in your response. Mainstream games (not just mainstream games but mobile etc.) have pretty much turned my seemingly harmless hobby into how much more money can you spend on a single game just to get what you want. Especially with that new NBA game that literally has slot machines in it with none of the rating agencies taking the issue too seriously. It is very disappointing to see. 

  3. Posted

    1 hour ago, MICFILLER said:

    AO is for graphic porn and shit at that level not 'instances of gambling'. MA fits this rating just fine. gtfo you are stupid.

     

    Also it's great that they are pulling the old 'think of the children' angle, but in what anti-lootbox story is it involving actual children? Saw the kotaku or wtv one that was shopped around when the bf2 drama was occurring, but that was a guy trying to buy social currency and influence not a gambling addict(he was late teens borderline adult). Every other story I've seen in passing is an adult. Glad the soccer moms and manipulative people are on this train.

     

    I don't like microtransactions or how hard stuff is designed around monetization(apb is hardly that bad of an offender) but the people pushing the OP's angle are complete cancer. It's not kids being manipulated it's stupid adults, and in many of the stories younger adults who the parents are babying.

     

     

    EDIT: The only instance of microtransactions that bother me is when AAA games or games you have to pay upfront contain it or heavily push for it. They already have their income stream. If they can't also afford to keep the game on their own servers for the same cost then just go back to the days of people hosting servers. F2P doesn't bother me in the slightest unless it is overly egregious, but the market will sort those out.

    Then you are ignoring ESRB'S own definition of the AO rating on their own website that does say it involves gambling with real currency.

     

    Plus those three videos in my first original post have already detailed several studies and actual stories of children exposed to loot boxes. Safe to say loot boxes are gambling because they are and shouldn't be exposed to minors or adolescents. 

     

    It's another case where the mainstream media or even local media where you live just turn a blind eye or refuse to cover stories of people addicted to these bad video game monetization practices.

    • Thanks 1

  4. Posted

    Personally I'm not fond of the F2P mechanics. Feels more grindier that the game has to be designed around the convenience that you can pay more and more money just to progress better in the game usually. I guess I'm old fashioned and prefer to pay a game before getting to play it or going for a subscription per monthly model instead and do away with all the microtransactions if possible. But this doesnt look likely to happen anytime soon, if ever at all.

  5. Posted · Edited by ScLines

    28 minutes ago, crusade said:

    The AO rating is a step above the M rating, and has been given to games purely for the violence (uncensored Manhunt 2 comes to mind).

    ESRB's own website says that AO rating applies to games that have gambling with real currency. M rating doesn't have it. Multiple studies and sources have already shown that the majority have pointed out that loot boxes are gambling hence why this game should be rated AO and not M. But it is better to remove loot boxes, if not, put an AO rating at least for ESRB's rating.

  6. Posted · Edited by ScLines

    10 minutes ago, Humnahey said:

     

    So if for whatever reason they decide to say that "gaming addiction" is real and make gaming illegal because too many 20ish year old boys are not working because they are gaming in their "loot boxless" games for 20 hours a day you're going to say "welp, gaming was fun...thanks government for making society better."

     

    I want to do things that I want to do and make my own decisions. How I spend my money has no affect on someone's life, liberty or the pursuit of happiness. While I am not going to downplay the seriousness of addiction, loot boxes and spending your own money comes down to you and you only. Many people are addicted to cocaine, heroin and other substances that have been deemed "illegal" by countless governments. How come laws and regulations didn't solve those problems?

    I'm pretty sure you know the answer to that question already. Laws and regulations aren't perfect but it is still better than absolute freedom if you think about it. For example, taxes. Almost everybody doesn't like them but most people deal with it. Glad to hear you want to do decisions for yourself, but then again the whole world doesn't revolve around you or me either. Hoping to see things in the world just a little bit better if that happens at all when looking outside the box.

  7. Posted

    4 minutes ago, CookiePuss said:

    Thats not how odds work.

    If laws are your guide for morality, I feel bad for you.

    If you end up getting into legal trouble one way or the other then you wouldn't be saying that would you? Pretty sure nobody wants to be in that position. It's that thing where you hear bad things happen to other people and think 'oh that will never happen to me' and then it does actually happen. Life ain't perfect but you get used to it.

  8. Posted

    15 minutes ago, Humnahey said:

     

    Lol "studies have shown parental supervision is not enough when raising your children. The government must be involved because the government know best." Get your 1984 big brother shit out of here and let me spend my money the way I want to spend my money. I don't need any government telling me what is and isn't good for me. 

     

    Give me power of attorney...I'll control your life for you if you want. 

     

    What are you going to say when people say there is a "gaming addiction?" "Gaming is a cancer on society....if your business is being kept a float by abusing the psych of those with a gaming addiction then you need a serious re-think." 

     

    Fuck personal responsibility amirite?

     

    Sure. If you want to do things illegally and not be told by laws or regulations on what you can and cannot do in life that's totally up to you. 

  9. Posted

    12 minutes ago, Fortune Runner said:

    People who have addiction problems choose it.

    The only ones who can be helped are the ones who want help.

     

    Parents who have a credit card should not give it to their children for loot boxes.

    The parents are responsible for that.

    Every time you say "Think of the children" you remind me of the Simpsons.

    Stop refusing to take responsibility and pushing the blame elsewhere.

     

    As for predatory monetization , where in APB is that done to milk us?

    As an example : To say killing someone is evil so self defense is evil is bull shit.

    The same goes for loot boxes that are not milking us for predatory monetization on APB which has already been shown its a M rating plus parents are responsible for their own children BY LAW

     

    can you just stop now please?

    Nope. My opinion and stance isn't going to change and neither will yours. I keep my opinions and you keep yours.

  10. Posted

    25 minutes ago, TheDogCatcher said:

    I've never really had a problem with free to play games having loot boxes ( AAA games having them is a whole other matter), you need to be able to monetise the game somehow, servers and staff all cost money.

     

    Cosmetic items don't really bring in enough money because there's a finite number of these items available to buy, and once you've got them all (or all the ones you want) there's no real incentive to spend any more money. A game like APB needs something to keep generating revenue long term and other than loot boxes there's only premium which again suffers from the issue of being limited in the amount it can generate ( you will only buy 1 month's worth of premium per month) .

     

    So really unless a better alternative can be found loot boxes are kind of a neccessary evil if this game is to pay for itself.

     

    There are issues with loot boxes for sure but they are problems with individuals who lack self control or people who don't properly supervise their children, I'm not sure that these are the people we should have dictating to us with regards to what we can and can't enjoy.

     

    If people have gambling problems maybe they should avoid games with loot boxes, and if people can't adequately supervise their kids then maybe they need a sharp kick in the wallet to teach them a lesson.

    Being able to make a good profit on video games has long existed before microtransactions came in. And even if the game sells very well with the 'predatory' monetization there are still lay-offs despite all the profits. So it doesnt seem to make a difference.

     

    I don't know if you have ever dealt with anyone or someone that you know has addiction problems when it comes to shopping or gambling but this is a big problem. It is not something you can simply turn off, it doesn't work that way. It is very easy to be there and saying 'they should of known better'. There are people that try to escape other forms of addictions and turn to videogames for that but fall prey on the 'predatory' monetization. It is even worse when children/adolescents get involved. Parental supervisory or keeping an eye on your credit card is simply not enough. It is a problem that could easily be fixed by not having the 'predatory' monetization. 

     

    Some have already argued ideas that they need to keep these bad designs and practices just to stay in business. If you are really relying on those for those reasons, maybe you shouldn't be in video game business. There are other safe ways to make money in video games whether you are a big company or a small company etc.

     

    I may be repeating these points what some others have said already but I stand by these points that I have said.

     

  11. Posted

    Thank you @MattScott for replying to this thread.

     

    I read your post and I think I got the main idea of the post.

     

    You say you want to know what you can and cannot do when it comes to monetizations in video games. I can understand that. It's too early to say what will happen to the North American market for example but other countries have made their choice and so far it seems to be a snowball effect that others will follow suit, but who knows.

     

    Have you also looked at the human side of things? These 'predatory' monetization examples I talked about maybe making a lot of money for certain developers but you are also preying on people with shopping addictions etc. There's a reason why gambling as you know is regulated and never has really been done in video games until recently. It is a bit sad to hear certain people getting addicted to these 'predatory' practices and not being able to control it. Gambling regulations that currently exists isnt perfect but it's better than nothing at all and might happen to video games at some point. Dont know if you remember this video but it does explain on that presentation video and the addictive nature on these practices. It's worth seeing.

     

     

     

  12. Posted

    41 minutes ago, claude said:

    love how people link yongyeas videos all the time when this topic pops up, but they completely disregard the fact that his videos are about companies who make games for children to gamble on, or companies that sell $60 games with lootboxes. Yong has said time and time again that he believes lootboxes on Free to Play titles are understandable, since the game needs to be monetized somehow. JMBs are hardly predatory, players cannot gain any advantage over other players with JMBs that are otherwise accessible in game, for free. 

    I can be wrong on this but these predatory practices are both bad in my book and not just in $60 dollar games and in F2P. Cant say too much but I do know regulations around the world are slowly making their judgments on these practices. So whatever rules each country makes is up to them.

     

    I can still see people defending loot boxes or in any of these practices that I have mentioned. Telling me I need to read this and that. You disagree? That's fine. I am not fond of these predatory monetizations myself.

     

    These predatory monetizations are already an open secret from reports I have seen on the media. Remember this video I posted on this guy explaining exactly what they are? He even said to leave morality out of it.

     

    Developers and publishers are pretty much interested in getting as much money as possible, basically this video sums up the predatory practices. Doesnt just apply to mobile games now does it?

  13. Posted · Edited by ScLines

    7 minutes ago, jerycho said:

    Hol up. This game is rated M so no children should be around. Unresposible parenting is a whole other issue. I know the line 'think of the children' gets the boomers going in parliament, but think of the ratings too. Thats why sports games are getting a lof of attention regarding this.

    What is also missing is that currently video games in North America especially dont have any gambling regulations/laws in place. When gambling regulations/laws were put in place in video games in Belgium, EA refused to comply subsequently with the regulations and pulled out. Basically not allowing loot boxes to be purchasable with real money.

     

    If gambling regulations/laws actually came in place worldwide to the video game industry I bet not many developers will not be as likely to attempt these predatory monetizations as they are currently doing.

     

    Though certainly this game being put to Adults Only instead of Mature would help things if ESRB did do their job on rating their games more properly when it comes to games having loot boxes/microtransactions.

  14. Posted

    11 minutes ago, Fortune Runner said:

    that would be lack of  , and the parents denying responsibility.

    laws don't change anything if you don't hold all parties accountable.

     

    and regardless of that , as i already said ,

     

     

    I am not about to ban loot boxes or make APB adults only just because of how other games are preadatory and APB is not predatory like other games are and less so thanks to Little Orbit.

    If one game has gambling but all the others that have the same thing don't get regulated that seems alright to you? I disagree. Gambling is simply not for adolescents or children, and more and more it is shown that loot boxes have gambling-like mechanics since you are paying for a chance on a random reward, exactly like gambling even if you dont get a cash reward back. It is still predatory monetization.

     

    Once the snowball gets going, just like what Belgium and Netherlands did. If UK follows them, no matter what some people that support loot boxes can't argue against the majority of people that are against it. It is that simple.

  15. Posted

    16 minutes ago, Fortune Runner said:

    It's their responsibility and their credit cards.

    kinda stops it right there if the credit card isn't handed over for it.

    Not really. Still not enough. If a kid went to a casino to gamble on a machine with their parents and the parents said it was fine, then you cant really say parental supervision is enough. That's why gambling laws and regulations exist to prevent minors/adolescents from gambling. Checking your credit cards for any unusual transactions would also be too late as the damage has already been done. Which is why gambling laws and regulations should be implemented into the video game industry. It's still better than no regulations/laws.

  16. Posted

    7 minutes ago, Fortune Runner said:

    I think you missed my point on this.

    I never said laws aren't in place and/or shouldn't be.

    Part of the problem is parents not properly parenting.

    Making more laws while denying parental responsibility does not fix anything.

    Both have to be addressed or nothing is solved.

     

    As studies have already shown and countless other sources have shown; Parental supervision is simply not enough, especially with gambling/predatory monetization involved. I don't mind video games getting the same treatment like the gambling industry already is doing.

  17. Posted · Edited by ScLines

    6 minutes ago, Fortune Runner said:

    They aren't involved until parents give credit cards over......

    They arent my kids and their parents need to take responsibility somewhere

    And regardless of that APB is not predatory like other games and less so thanks to Little Orbit

    exactly why I said normally. sometimes it  just isn't.

    just trying to clarify for you that im not claiming its always worth it.

    That's why gambling has laws and regulations that are to be followed. Video games dont currently have those gambling laws and regulations in place, hence why they are still doing those practices which shouldn't be available to minors. But that might change.

     

    And saying they aren't my kids isn't solving or changing this problem since it is still a big problem. Not enough people are aware how daming they are in video games. That's just ignoring the problem that something must be done.

  18. Posted · Edited by ScLines

    2 minutes ago, Fortune Runner said:

    As if studies cant be bias? And as if i gamble solely because of loot boxes?

    No I gamble if I want to gamble and on APB its normally worth it regardless of the  outcome.

    APB isnt predatory like other games and also is even less so thanks to Little Orbit.

    Then keep children or adolescents out of gambling/predatory monetization in video games. The very least, don't get them involved. That's a big problem currently in the gaming industry.

  21. Posted · Edited by ScLines

    Remember a while back when I posted about loot boxes being harmful? They are harmful after all and this time there is lengthy study and evidence that can't be denied. Especially since this report from the UK just came out.

     

     

    You already said what you are going to do for this game but I still stand by my opinion. Feel free to disagree but I don't think you can really defend these practices too much, especially with children exposed to this. Have the game without the predatory practices or make this game played by adults only. It is that simple.

     

    P.S: Even if you disclosed the odds of loot boxes that doesnt circumvent gambling laws and regulations.

     

    P.P.S: Remember this clip? How these predatory monetizations are also detailed well in this video as well. Spilling the open secrets out for everybody to see.

     

    P.P.P.S: Follow up to that previous video above me talks about the 'predatory' monetization in video games. Not just in F2P or mobile games anymore. The human side of things and those with addictions that are preyed upon.

     

    • Like 6
    • Thanks 1

  22. Posted

    Get rid of loot boxes from this game. Don't even think of trying to re-branding it to something new in the future in the hopes of bringing it back especially if it functions the same way. If you won't get rid of them, at least dont allow minors or children play this game at all. It is that simple. Better yet, if you really care, dont have loot boxes, especially if you can pay real money for them.

  23. Posted

    Hey Matt. Disclosing the drop rate isnt changing anything. Loot boxes are still gambling, and you could say they are worse than gambling. Maybe the reason your still keeping the loot boxes because you want all that precious profit from players who like to spend and even from minors/children that love to spend who don't know any better. Again, preying on those people with addictions that want to spend money. At least casinos have it regulated so children aren't exposed to gambling, loot boxes don't really belong in video games unless you heavily restrict it to adults or just focus on making a good game instead of relying on gambling/predatory monetization. That's my opinion and I still dislike loot boxes to this day.

    • Like 1

  24. Posted · Edited by ScLines

    Quote

     

    no but they do have massive ads and  banners that sometimes are infected with worms and viruses etc.

    who wants their comp or phone slowed down to a crawl from ads anyways?

    plus wit ad blockers such places are shutting down from no revenue because it doesn't work.

     

    And yet they are still running despite my different viewpoints on these practices which is not changing my viewpoint.

    Quote

     

    most players of F2P games are not playing AO games because most are minors.

    and regardless of that , you do not have a workable solution for F2P to stay F2P but instead would kill F2P games

     

    So be it then. My dislike of their practices is not changing one bit, especially when it comes to minors/childrens getting hooked with addiction especially.

    Quote

     

    that is an opinion and not a fact.

    many F2P games would not exist otherwise

     

    Again, I won't feel bad at all if F2P games will not exist the next day if legislatures step up. I will be careful on what to spend my money on if that happens. And by the way, there still exists some F2P games without microstransactions or loot boxes out there (mostly some retro games that I won't be surprised if there are something else).

    Quote

     

    its fine that this is your opinion , you can think what you want

    however most subscription games are because of a big and or wide enough fan base to stay afloat.

    theres a reason why most F2P games have loot boxes instead of subscriptions or ads. I would suggest researching this a little more.

     

    Because these developers/corporations decided to make it acceptable social behavior to spend on these practices, especially to minors/childrens which I dislike. That one CEO in that video explained it very well too. If those practices aren't going away like I said already, I prefer them restricted to AO games and that's what I think of. You may not like it, but that is my opinion that's not changing at all.

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