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#41
KEEM★

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You mean something like:

 

http://www.aauw.org/...-graduation.pdf

 

I haven't read much on the subject in years so I just took one of the sources from the wikipedia page on gender pay gap, but there are a huge amount of studies on things like this. Maybe you should look things up yourself if you want to actually learn about them.

It didn't take those things I stated into account. Nice try though. None of these studies take into account region as well(and specific companies seeing as some companies may pay more or less even if you are in the same position).


Edited by MellowYellow, 13 June 2016 - 03:37 PM.


#42
Chrispe

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It didn't take those things I stated into account. Nice try though.

It does though? At least the experience part. There are plenty of better studies too, but I didn't feel like spending more than a minute looking and like I said I haven't read about it in a while.


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#43
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It does though? At least the experience part. There are plenty of better studies too, but I didn't feel like spending more than a minute looking and like I said I haven't read about it in a while.

It doesn't. While it does keep track of people after they finished there degree(in terms of pay) it doesn't tell us if they were working that entire time it doesn't tell us if they are working in a field they got the degree for. It leaves out to much. You can't find a study that takes into account every variable and there for it can't(at least in my mind) be used as evidence to support your argument. I however do think that women should be pushed more to get degree's in fields mostly dominated by men.


Edited by MellowYellow, 13 June 2016 - 03:48 PM.


#44
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It doesn't. While it does keep track of people after they finished there degree(in terms of pay) it doesn't tell us if they were working that entire time it doesn't tell us if they are working in a field they got the degree for. It leaves out to much. You can't find a study that takes into account every variable and there for it can't(at least in my mind) be used as evidence to support your argument.

On average those things should be similar for both sexes and also shouldn't make a large difference as working at some retail or food service job in college which would be the majority of people working in college won't significantly effect your pay afterward. There are studies that look at specific careers and do very thorough jobs. Also you don't need to cover every variable to have convincing evidence that there is a pay gap. Denying it exists it pretty much just sticking your fingers in your ears and going "Lalalala I can't hear you". There is tons of research that shows it exists and absolutely none that shows it does not. Some people try to explain it away, but no matter how much you try to explain it away when people do studies that take in account the factors that people try to use to explain it away there is still a pay gap.


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#45
Bellenettiel

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Yes, the extreme and ill-informed people. Maybe they are the stupid, the arrogant or the ignorant. But people like that get lots of attention anyway, regardless of the field they are active in.  But they also got me wondering, is there really something inherently wrong with the way things are right now?

 

No it is just that they are often the loudest and i guess, the most common denominator around. 

 

Some of them are super aggressive and that makes everyone over the internet raise an eyebrow. 


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#46
AlexandraTromp

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No it is just that they are often the loudest and i guess, the most common denominator around. 

 

Some of them are super aggressive and that makes everyone over the internet raise an eyebrow. 

 

Not just the internet though but your comment kinda reminds me of this video. 

 


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#47
eax

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Here is a single picture describing the movement:

 

8V4BMf9.png

 

 



#48
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And this one is the best:

 



#49
KEEM★

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On average those things should be similar for both sexes and also shouldn't make a large difference as working at some retail or food service job in college which would be the majority of people working in college won't significantly effect your pay afterward. There are studies that look at specific careers and do very thorough jobs. Also you don't need to cover every variable to have convincing evidence that there is a pay gap. Denying it exists it pretty much just sticking your fingers in your ears and going "Lalalala I can't hear you". There is tons of research that shows it exists and absolutely none that shows it does not. Some people try to explain it away, but no matter how much you try to explain it away when people do studies that take in account the factors that people try to use to explain it away there is still a pay gap.

You do need every variable covered or else its considered inconclusive evidence.



#50
Eisena

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Gosh when this thread was made I was thinking when Bambola gonna jump in and here you are. ^_^

 

-snip-

 

But yeah I totally agree with you there I personally would not touch the biological aspect and all that jazz since that is a clear case if you count out the triggered snowflakes. 

The different choices we make would also be a clear case but apparently less understood if I can believe the media that won't touch on both of these aspects.

I am just for equality under law and if I would disagree with someone so much that it would be unacceptable I would just stop hanging around with those people.

Definitely not needing a government to make choices for me on who to hang out with or not. :P

Just going to say now I am not afraid and don't need a safe space to protect me from debates with people with opposite views, if you ask me that spices life up a bit more -snip-

 

 

Well the official term would be positive discrimination and the concerns I have with it won't take root after implementation I would go for a 20 to 30 years before these problems of such action would take root visibly and could probably go into studies of that future.

On the take charge thing of course woman can be good leaders too of course and that's why we shouldn't get special privileges to get there.

Just saying there are woman out there that go bunkers of the word "bossy", seriously if you get triggered by that you're incapable of a leadership position if you ask me. 

 

-snip-

 

On the biological aspect,. While there is definitely a difference between the genders, I think there is some overlap as well.  It differs from person to person. Like a Venn-diagram.

 

And I absolutely agree with your statement. It's not right to get privileges just like that. As many feminists would agree. :P But maybe it is meant to counter a 'no-girls-allowed'- mentality amongst men in high places? That would make sense, right?

 

 

No it is just that they are often the loudest and i guess, the most common denominator around. 

 

Some of them are super aggressive and that makes everyone over the internet raise an eyebrow. 

 

No? Just because people are loud (and aggressive), doesn't make them right about anything. I think that makes people ignorant. At the very least ignorant about their own behaviour.

 

 

Not just the internet though but your comment kinda reminds me of this video. 

 

Spoiler

 

^ Case in point. 

 

 

And this one is the best:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Hmm, that's pretty grim. 

 


Edited by Eisena, 13 June 2016 - 06:39 PM.

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#51
Chrispe

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You do need every variable covered or else its considered inconclusive evidence.

So you don't believe anything from any branch of social science ever? That is pretty much what you just said.


Edited by Chrispe, 13 June 2016 - 07:08 PM.

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#52
damn2112

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It does not take a genius to see women are still underrated in society. And feminism doesn't fight for woman rights only, it fights for equality of all genders and gender roles. It is getting better, even though we still have a long way to go.

It's not getting any better at all its getting alot more worse.
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#53
AsgerLund

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I dream of a world, where people are hired, paid and treated based on their character, skills and personality - and not their gender.

 

giphy.gif

...the stigma-free exposure of fleshy man-bewbs will transfer to women-bewbs, so that all people can walk around bare-chested without the fear of shame and harassment. Big or small - wide or narrow - fair or dark. All shapes and shades.

 

giphy.gif


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#54
LilyV3

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It's not getting any better at all its getting alot more worse.

 

yes but I think this is less gender related, its generally a lot decay in society towards equality and wealtha and whatever.


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#55
Vazkulator

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You mean something like:

 

http://www.aauw.org/...-graduation.pdf

 

I haven't read much on the subject in years so I just took one of the sources from the wikipedia page on gender pay gap, but there are a huge amount of studies on things like this. Maybe you should look things up yourself if you want to actually learn about them.

is it worth reading this ? since the authors are under Cultural Anthropology & Aerospace Engineering,

 

the other authors credibility goes as far as "Hill was a study director at the Institute for Women’s Policy Research and an assistant professor in planning and public policy at the University of Virginia.(also female author obviusly)

 

i doubt that its enough to put two authors in the spotlight to begin with and suddenly start pointing fingers at numbers.


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#56
Vazkulator

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And this one is the best:

 

cant even laugh or smile at this, its exactly how things work today


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#57
Chrispe

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is it worth reading this ? since the authors are under Cultural Anthropology & Aerospace Engineering,

 

the other authors credibility goes as far as "Hill was a study director at the Institute for Women’s Policy Research and an assistant professor in planning and public policy at the University of Virginia.(also female author obviusly)

 

i doubt that its enough to put two authors in the spotlight to begin with and suddenly start pointing fingers at numbers.

I only skimmed it TBH, it was just the first example of something I found that addressed several things people in this thread saying were never addressed in this type of research. I'm sure there are better papers, but there are hundreds of papers on the subject that go in to various degrees of detail about hours worked, prior experience, education, competence, and other factors that can effect pay. Nothing in social science can ever go in to 100% detail because you can't have a 100% controlled experiment if humans are the subject, but there have been plenty of well done studies on the topic and denying there has been is just ignorant.


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#58
Vazkulator

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I only skimmed it TBH, it was just the first example of something I found that addressed several things people in this thread saying were never addressed in this type of research. I'm sure there are better papers, but there are hundreds of papers on the subject that go in to various degrees of detail about hours worked, prior experience, education, competence, and other factors that can effect pay. Nothing in social science can ever go in to 100% detail because you can't have a 100% controlled experiment if humans are the subject, but there have been plenty of well done studies on the topic and denying there has been is just ignorant.

hm no there arent, we simply tend to choose different paths in life as a majority between male and women

 

- women usually rather spend time with the kids if it is to be decided between partners.

- men usually decides to work longer overtime while, yet it is true that women are often forced to work two jobs to get by(still that doesnt count men out of it)

 

we are just so different, men are stronger and by which nature and biology makes us better workforce at a focused target.

Women will register more details/objects around us which explains a lot about hormonal response with sudden outburst of feelings making them more emotionally alert. obviously we will deploy a better workhorse if we worked together with our strong points together as our differences both are positive attributes.

 

and yet again you sum up your message with "if you dont agree with me, then youre ignorant"

typical social justice warrior behaviour


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#59
Chrispe

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hm no there arent, we simply tend to choose different paths in life as a majority between male and women

 

- women usually rather spend time with the kids if it is to be decided between partners.

- men usually decides to work longer overtime while, yet it is true that women are often forced to work two jobs to get by(still that doesnt count men out of it)

 

we are just so different, men are stronger and by which nature and biology makes us better workforce at a focused target.

Women will register more details/objects around us which explains a lot about hormonal response with sudden outburst of feelings making them more emotionally alert. obviously we will deploy a better workhorse if we worked together with our strong points together as our differences both are positive attributes.

 

and yet again you sum up your message with "if you dont agree with me, then youre ignorant"

typical social justice warrior behaviour

Wow, do you understand the idea of controlling for things and that it is commonly done in social science research. You can't control for everything, but you can control for a good portion of it. You have obviously never read anything on the subject though so yes, I'm going to call you ignorant.

 

Typical idiot behavior.


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#60
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to me, feminists appear to be people who have never truly been in a decent relationship, i treat my wife with respect and admiration, she is pretty much better at everything important than i am, we share resonsiblities pretty much equally and never have any issues at all.

 

girls have always been treated equally as far as i have been raised, clearly its different all over the place, but you cant just expect to be paid the same or treated the same as other people because of gender, if you do equally as much work in the same situations then the pay should reflect it.

 

its like schools and collages having to accept a certain % of minorities or sexes not based on merits, but to fill a quota... 

 

its all a bit contrived, people should just sit down and accept that everyone is people, people is equal, we are all part of the human race.

 

 

Cant we all just be friends? 


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#61
Vazkulator

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Wow, do you understand the idea of controlling for things and that it is commonly done in social science research. You can't control for everything, but you can control for a good portion of it. You have obviously never read anything on the subject though so yes, I'm going to call you ignorant.

 

Typical idiot behavior.

idea of controlling for things

control for everything

control for a good portion of it

 

dum dum your boat is too far away


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#62
AlexandraTromp

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On the biological aspect,. While there is definitely a difference between the genders, I think there is some overlap as well.  It differs from person to person. Like a Venn-diagram.

 

And I absolutely agree with your statement. It's not right to get privileges just like that. As many feminists would agree. :P But maybe it is meant to counter a 'no-girls-allowed'- mentality amongst men in high places? That would make sense, right?

 

Well we are not 100% different of course but I know what you're getting at and I have to disagree, the biological differences will always be there.

 

Yeah but the 'no girls allowed in the top' is just a bunch of bull, if the woman would be the best option they will take the woman but it doesn't happen as much because woman generally take a different route then man would. 


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#63
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Yeah but the 'no girls allowed in the top' is just a bunch of bull, if the woman would be the best option they will take the woman but it doesn't happen as much because woman generally take a different route then man would.

 

Problem lies in inability of men to cope with the fact a woman probably would be at least equally good if not better at the positions which were and still are reserved for men exclusively, thanks to their (un)conscious bias. I am not a person who takes studies for granted because of variables those come with, but not just one, we are talking here about many which conclude with the same findings - women have what it takes to succeed in business, ambition, interest, education and skill wise and women are better suited for business success in terms of communication, interpersonal and organizational skills. Undeniable fact is women never got their chance to prove themselves. However that is something what is going to change sooner or later. Men can always go back to Middle Ages methods and to witch-hunt if it turns out we are doing some things even better.

Currently it is really hard for women to rise to the top because there is too much power in the hands of men and the masculine perspective, and women need to sacrifice a lot of their feminine qualities such as compassion, intuition and emotions and overcome rest obstacles - lack of opportunities and mentoring in the business world men have, family duties and constrains (being a mother is the full time job with over-hours) and lack of encouragement to get into harsh men's business world and remain there. However I blame the current business model (especially thanks to current economy and political systems) and honestly believe once when the numbers of women taking some serious model and principle changing positions in the business world won't be so drastically out of proportion with men, world will start to realize all mistakes which have been made and which we are still making and that's why I consider the last part of your sentence pretty much crucial to this problem - "because woman generally take a different route then man would"; they surely would and I feel it would be the better way, maybe not better for the individuals hungry for power and wealth, but rather for the whole system, hence humanity.  

 
Sheesh, what an exhausting topic, next time Eisena, could you please make a thread related to ummm... well I do not know, best it would be not to create any threads ^^

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#64
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Problem lies in inability of men to cope with the fact a woman probably would be at least equally good if not better at the positions which were and still are reserved for men exclusively, thanks to their (un)conscious bias. I am not a person who takes studies for granted because of variables those come with, but not just one, we are talking here about many which conclude with the same findings - women have what it takes to succeed in business, ambition, interest, education and skill wise and women are better suited for business success in terms of communication, interpersonal and organizational skills. Undeniable fact is women never got their chance to prove themselves. However that is something what is going to change sooner or later. Men can always go back to Middle Ages methods and to witch-hunt if it turns out we are doing some things even better.

Currently it is really hard for women to rise to the top because there is too much power in the hands of men and the masculine perspective, and women need to sacrifice a lot of their feminine qualities such as compassion, intuition and emotions and overcome rest obstacles - lack of opportunities and mentoring in the business world men have, family duties and constrains (being a mother is the full time job with over-hours) and lack of encouragement to get into harsh men's business world and remain there. However I blame the current business model (especially thanks to current economy and political systems) and honestly believe once when the numbers of women taking some serious model and principle changing positions in the business world won't be so drastically out of proportion with men, world will start to realize all mistakes which have been made and which we are still making and that's why I consider the last part of your sentence pretty much crucial to this problem - "because woman generally take a different route then man would"; they surely would and I feel it would be the better way, maybe not better for the individuals hungry for power and wealth, but rather for the whole system, hence humanity.  

 
Sheesh, what an exhausting topic, next time Eisena, could you please make a thread related to ummm... well I do not know, best it would be not to create any threads ^^

 

 

wow what a generalised sweeping statement which belittles both sexes, well congratulations on equality i suppose... 


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#65
Vazkulator

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Problem lies in inability of "men" to cope with the ?fact? a "woman" probably would be at least equally good if not better at the positions which were and still are reserved for men exclusively, thanks to their (un)conscious bias. I am not a person who takes studies for granted because of variables those come with, but not just one, we are talking here about many which conclude with the same findings - women have what it takes to succeed in business, ambition, interest, education and skill wise and women are better suited for business success in terms of (????communication, interpersonal and organizational skills???)HAHAHA. Undeniable ?fact? is women (never got their chance to prove themselves):oh my!?. However that is something what is going to change sooner or later. Men can always go back to Middle Ages methods and to ???witch-hunt?? if it turns out we are doing some things even better.

Currently it is really hard for women to rise to the top because there is too much power in the hands of men and the masculine perspective, and women need to sacrifice a lot of their feminine qualities such as compassion, intuition and emotions and overcome rest obstacles - lack of opportunities and mentoring in the business world men have, family duties and constrains (being a mother is the full time job with over-hours) and lack of encouragement to get into harsh men's business world and remain there. However I blame the current business model (especially thanks to current economy and political systems) and honestly believe once when the numbers of women taking some serious model and principle changing positions in the business world won't be so drastically out of proportion with men, world will start to realize all mistakes which have been made and which we are still making and that's why I consider the last part of your sentence pretty much crucial to this problem - "because woman generally take a different route then man would"; they surely would and I feel it would be the better way, maybe not better for the individuals hungry for power and wealth, but rather for the whole system, hence humanity.  

 
Sheesh, what an exhausting topic, next time Eisena, could you please make a thread related to ummm... well I do not know, best it would be not to create any threads ^^

 

you sir, totally nuts 24/7.


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#66
Vazkulator

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THIS is the PROBLEM

it doesnt matter in the slightest what you say,

just say it like you mean well and use words that doesnt make any damn sense at all as you fact claim whatever you want without providing a single source when youve mentioned that there are many.

 

the only truth i can really fact claim without actually backing it up with a single source is that weve got it so good and equal amongst genders that anyone seems to believe that their opinions values more highly than what 10 scientists would agree on together within closed doors.

 

everyones opinions matters but it doesnt mean that youre always right, you cant fact claim without providing a source and doing so while youve spoken of several different studies already and yet failing to delivering a single one? whats wrong with you ?


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#67
Vazkulator

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IF those studies that which Bamboona spoke of would exist then EVERYBODY would know of them, its like if somebody found the "First Quran" never seen before,

older than any scripts that has been discovered before that said that you should love the unfaithful infidels and do not bring evil intent to

those who believe in other gods.

 

point being with the quran comparison is that those wouldve been brought to the spotlight so well that you would hit it with a single google search at the first result.

itd be so prominent that fire covering the skies would matter less in social medias or anywhere else on the internet.

 

its fully understandable why you arent providing any source.


Edited by Vazkulator, 14 June 2016 - 06:16 AM.

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#68
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enough for me, this is too stupid


Edited by Vazkulator, 14 June 2016 - 06:13 AM.

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#69
AsgerLund

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C-c-c-combo breakeeeeerrrr!!!


Representing the tyranny of the lol.

Let's carnivalize our anger and remind ourselves of the civic threats of laughter.

Are you measuring yourself according to the right dystopia?


#70
Bambola

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Oh my, I knew it. No, you know what, I won't post here anymore. Judging by your comments I really do not feel like debating about stuff like this with people who got their pubic hair recently. Seems like this is really a touchy subject for most guys, with a reason.


Edited by Bambola, 14 June 2016 - 06:50 AM.

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#71
Vazkulator

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Oh my, I knew it. No, you know what, I won't post here anymore. Judging by your comments I really do not feel like debating about stuff like this with people who got their pubic hair recently. Seems like this is really a touchy subject for most guys, with a reason.

a safe space because words do hurt

you are the only believe in hate speech and speech isnt isnt a call to action

you cant even back up your own cruise control fact claiming

you wont take the debate because you cant handle words that are too difficult for you

 

VICTIMIZED


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#72
Chrispe

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IF those studies that which Bamboona spoke of would exist then EVERYBODY would know of them, its like if somebody found the "First Quran" never seen before,
older than any scripts that has been discovered before that said that you should love the unfaithful infidels and do not bring evil intent to
those who believe in other gods.

point being with the quran comparison is that those wouldve been brought to the spotlight so well that you would hit it with a single google search at the first result.
itd be so prominent that fire covering the skies would matter less in social medias or anywhere else on the internet.

its fully understandable why you arent providing any source.


You are complaining about people not providing sources while not providing sources for your own unsubstantiated claims and arguing against the only person who has and clearly not under the source which was posted. How about you post 1 source that isn't some idiot news source that shows the entire pay gap can be explained by the regressive stereotypes you insist explain them.

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#73
Vazkulator

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You are complaining about people not providing sources while not providing sources for your own unsubstantiated claims and arguing against the only person who has and clearly not under the source which was posted. How about you post 1 source that isn't some idiot news source that shows the entire pay gap can be explained by the regressive stereotypes you insist explain them.

you want sources on biology or something else? can you put your finger on where it burns ?

you are one of two persons in here whos mentioned several or to be exact "MANY" studies which none of those were contributed in the thread

 

priorities dude, you cant start yelling "omg its so unfair!!" and for you to be able to seem to have any kind of credibility at all you tell people to prove you wrong when youre the one assuming that your butthurt is because somone is treating your butt poorly

 

just go to your safe space


Edited by Vazkulator, 14 June 2016 - 01:07 PM.

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#74
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You are complaining about people not providing sources while not providing sources for your own unsubstantiated claims and arguing against the only person who has and clearly not under the source which was posted. How about you post 1 source that isn't some idiot news source that shows the entire pay gap can be explained by the regressive stereotypes you insist explain them.

'The burden of proof is on the accuser' you disagreed with the statement I provided so provide proof please.



#75
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http://www.nber.org/...n07/w12139.html

yea its getting better

edit, well yea on a feminist perspective its better. hail priviledge


Edited by Vazkulator, 14 June 2016 - 01:21 PM.

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#76
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you want sources on biology or something else? can you put your finger on where it burns ?

you are one of two persons in here whos mentioned several or to be exact "MANY" studies which none of those were contributed in the thread

 

priorities dude, you cant start yelling "omg its so unfair!!" and for you to be able to seem to have any kind of credibility at all you tell people to prove you wrong when youre the one assuming that your butthurt is because somone is treating your butt poorly

 

just go to your safe space

 

'The burden of proof is on the accuser' you disagreed with the statement I provided so provide proof please.

Wow you two are dumb. How about this. For every legitimate research article you provide saying there is not pay gap I'll provide 5 that show there is. I've already provided 1 so I think it is your turn.


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Wow you two are dumb. How about this. For every legitimate research article you provide saying there is not pay gap I'll provide 5 that show there is. I've already provided 1 so I think it is your turn.

people usually are dumb when they dont agree with a feminist. wheres are those "many" sources?

i dont even find words reasonable enough for you, last time u posted a source was authors being aero engineers and an activist

 

dude..


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Wow you two are dumb. How about this. For every legitimate research article you provide saying there is not pay gap I'll provide 5 that show there is. I've already provided 1 so I think it is your turn.

I can't provide something that doesn't exist. While there may be a pay gap its not as drastic as most people believe and most of the reason why is because of career choice. People still pursue degree's in things that don't/won't pay well.


Edited by MellowYellow, 14 June 2016 - 01:36 PM.


#79
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people usually are dumb when they dont agree with a feminist. wheres are those "many" sources?

i dont even find words reasonable enough for you, last time u posted a source was authors being aero engineers and an activist

 

dude..

You mean a cultural anthropologist and a doctor of public policy? I'm not sure if you know, but master's is a higher degree than bachelor's and the highest degree the one you are calling an engineer had was a master's in cultural anthropology.


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#80
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I can't provide something that doesn't exist. While there may be a pay gap its not as drastic as most people believe and most of the reason's why is because of career choice. People still pursue degree's in things that don't/won't pay well.

If what you say is true there would be studies showing that the pay gap could be explained by career choices, but then you admit there are not.

 

I'm done with this conversation anyway. Its not going anywhere and the amount of hypocrisy is getting out of hand.


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