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Weapon Rebalance - Pre-High TTK Test Values.


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#1
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Weapon Rebalance - Pre-High TTK Test Values.
 
We tend to be somewhat cagey about releasing statistics on what we've changed in relation to weapons before or shortly after releasing them in order to not color user behavior. This is especially important when working with the Prototype districts as the feedback we receive (both directly through the community / playing in these districts and indirectly through stats gathering) needs to have as few preconceptions as possible. If we announce specific changes prior to or as we release something, we will change how players perceive that item to behave. For example we had a change a couple of years back when we heavily improved the Kurai, but released the patch notes for it with the previous patch. In this case a large percentage of players swore that their Kurai suddenly handled a lot better. These pre-conceptions can affect how a player uses a weapon, which then affects the data we gather, further skewing balancing attempts.
 
Saying that, now that we're moving past our first phase of balancing and into our testing of the High TTK districts we would like to spend some time detailing the outcome of these balancing changes, given that the initial stage :
 
Altering Weapon Behavior over fire duration
 
The most drastic thing that has changed with the weapon updates are the altering of weapon behavior as it fires, generally changing recoil patterns and accuracy loss. Primarily this allows us to have weapons that retain their initial accuracy for longer, and don't recoil as much initially, which helps incentivise burst firing over tap firing or full auto, making weapons have less RNG initially. It also allows us to have weapons that improve over time, encouraging players to use sustained suppression fire.This works by using a curve in Unreal to define a shape, and change the X value of the curve each time you fire, using the Y output as a multiplier into one of the standard weapon stats, such as Accuracy or Recoil Pitch/Yaw.
 
vSkT0nR.png
 
The 'default' accuracy curve for an Assault Rifle, starting at 75% of normal and increasing to 125%. This varies between Assault Rifles.
 
When you stop firing, after a short delay the curve retracts back to default, which makes weapon control a much greater skill factor. There has been some feedback for curves related to reduced reliability, which is the exact opposite of the purpose of this system and something we are currently working on improving while retaining the reduced randomness this new system provides us. One area we are investigating involves removing the retraction time, instead simply resetting the curve to 0 after the short delay. This will remove some of the uncertainty we've been seeing with weapons that use curves, where players are not quite sure of what their behavior will be. The High TTK district uses a somewhat extreme version of this to provide great accuracy for initial shots (and good accuracy thereafter) while ensuring you always know how your weapon will react when you fire it.
 
Notes about deciphering information from mass-data
 
Below we're going to show you graphs on data we've collected prior to and after changing various weapons. All the caveats of the previous Weapon Rebalance blog post apply here. In addition, I thought it prudent to bring up another few points:
  • Reading these graphs are as much about interpreting as it is about data gathering. An Armas only weapon will likely have a higher KD ratio than a non-armas weapon even if it's worse due to players that have paid money generally being more invested in APB (and having a higher playtime and skill) than those that don't. On a similar matter, the data for the STAR and FBW will be heavily skewed due to them being starter weapons. In order to avoid any perception issues arising from this, the vertical axis of any data graphs will not be shown. This also allows us to better compare like for like rather than getting hung up on pure numbers (long range weapons for instance have better KDs across the board due to the relative lack of danger they put themselves in).
  • As before, the less used a weapon, the less data we have to extrapolate from. This can clearly be seen by the graphs being 'spiky'.
  • We use a number of graphs to get broad overviews of how a weapon is performing. Last time we showed you graphs that determined what percentage of kills a weapon had at each range. Today we'll be showing their K D ratios at 2m intervals. This provides us an idea of how changes to the weapon interact how it deals with other weapons at range within the meta, without being skewed towards average fight distance.
  • Collating and analyzing these graphs are of course no substitute for in-game experience. Over and above gathering data, our main way of determining the appropriate balance of a weapon is to head onto live servers and try them out against other players.
  • Unlike the previous set of graphs, these values are not from the Prototype Districts. They are directly comparing weapons that have graduated vs the same data from the beginning of April. As such the data is more directly comparable (totals vs totals rather than totals vs Baylan) and generally has more data-points. Some weapons, particularly the less popular ones, still don't have much data however.
  • None of this exists in a vacuum. Changes in how a weapon performs may be more down to how we have tweaked others, rather than how we change the weapon itself. If the SR15 becomes worse at range, we may start to see an improvement of the K D of rifles as they are no longer countered.

 

Assault Rifles

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#2
Chrispe

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Wait so what is happening to the weapons that have not been released from the test district? Are all test district changes going live some time soon or are those changes just not happening?

 

If the HVR isn't being changed this game is dead to me.


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#3
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If the HVR isn't being changed this game is dead to me.


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#4
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I dont get the HVR hate. The gun is just fine. If you guys want more trick shots go play Gun Z or something lol


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#5
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I dont get the HVR hate. The gun is just fine. If you guys want more trick shots go play Gun Z or something lol

How do trick shots have anything to do with this? What I want is a gun that doesn't easily dominate at every single weapon from 0-100m. In the current state of the game and before the balance changes there is no possible way for me to be as effective as I am with the HVR with any other gun in the game. Also it is so drastic that unless I am significantly better than my opposition my only choice when someone pulls out an HVR is to pull my own out or be a significant disadvantage.


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#6
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The most drastic thing that has changed with the weapon updates are the altering of weapon behavior as it fires, generally changing recoil patterns and accuracy loss. Primarily this allows us to have weapons that retain their initial accuracy for longer, and don't recoil as much initially, which helps incentivise burst firing over tap firing or full auto, making weapons have less RNG initially.
 
When you stop firing, after a short delay the curve retracts back to default, which makes weapon control a much greater skill factor. 

 

 

What is the fascination though behind burstfire? If I read this correctly it seems to lean towards burst-firing = more player skill, but I don't understand the philosophy behind this. To me, the "burstfire" mechanic that is popping up tends to take the control out of the player's hands and forces them down a particular route each time. Is there an issue with tap firing? 


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#7
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I think much of the HVR hate is exaggerated beyond quickswitching.  There are some meaningful changes they could make and I'm on the fence about how they address quickswitching in the prototype districts, though a fix is better than no fix atm.  Wish it would go live; nothing stops them from continuing to tweak it.



#8
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So, is this going to improve the AR? Because since the ARs were nerf, I can't use them like I used to before

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#9
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The problem is, since you didnt say what the changes were, people assumed them. This triggered an even greater placebo effect, as some people said "these changes are RNG", people tested weapons after reading that, placebo (and some hitreg/server issues) later and BAM, you got yourself thousands of posts saying how RNG is bad and how going into a luck-based direction is wrong, despite the game is going in the exact opposite direction.

And i though i was blind or something when i failed to see the changes everyone talked about...

Edited by juice, 17 August 2015 - 04:06 PM.


#10
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The problem is, since you didnt say what the changes were, people assumed them. This triggered an even greater placebo effect, as some people said "these changes are RNG", people tested weapons after reading that, placebo (and some hitreg/server issues) later and BAM, you got yourself thousands of posts saying how RNG is bad and how going into a luck-based direction is wrong, despite the game is going in the exact opposite direction.

And i though i was blind or something when i failed to see the changes everyone talked about...

 

Actually most of the weapons are more RNG then when they started.  Being that it's a timed recovery, each weapon gives seemingly random recoil and accuracy based on when you choose to fire again.  No matter how you fired it, it seems some guns don't give the same result twice making it confusing on exactly how you should be trying to handle it.

 

Then for the ones that gain more accuracy as they fire, they had to increase their initial bloom or recoil so it had something to become accurate into.  But by then you should be dead.   :)

 

They made the guns more random and less predictable.  They even say so in the blog post above and that they're working on it.  But players were right, the guns were more random.  And this new curve system makes all guns behave in 1 of 2 ways, burst fire or hold down to gain accuracy.  Seems pretty samey.

 

Before (outside of the NTEC) guns had different blooms and bloom recovery times, making gun play exciting.  Each gun handled a little different and required you to use it a little different depending on range you were firing at.  Do I burst, tap, hold it down? How fast do I tap at this range?  Too slow, too fast and you were missing.  Now all the guns seem to be "hold down for a few shots, release for recovery, fire again" regardless of range because the curve lets them be super accurate at the start of the burst.  At least once they fix the randomness.  


Edited by Mercuie, 17 August 2015 - 04:30 PM.

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#11
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What is the fascination though behind burstfire? If I read this correctly it seems to lean towards burst-firing = more player skill, but I don't understand the philosophy behind this. To me, the "burstfire" mechanic that is popping up tends to take the control out of the player's hands and forces them down a particular route each time. Is there an issue with tap firing? 

 

I thought whether you burst-fire, tap-fire or go full-auto completely depended upon gun as some were made for full-auto suppression while others were made to value accuracy over everything else. Burst-fire isn't supposed to be a technique used for all guns :/ So weird....


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#12
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http://i.imgur.com/vSkT0nR.png
 
The 'default' accuracy curve for an Assault Rifle, starting at 75% of normal and increasing to 125%. This varies between Assault Rifles.

So if I understand this graph correctly, the baseline for assault rifles dictates they will reach max bloom within 0.2 seconds of continous fire. That's insanely fast.

If you want to make the player feel in control, an assault rifle should only reach max bloom if continously fired "through an entire kill", i.e.currently ~0.75 seconds. This would allow assault rifle users to go for faster kills at close range, but force them to slow down at range.
Of course this would also require assault rifles to have a higher TTK than dedicated close range weapons, to ensure they can't just spray them down in CQC (which was the principal issue with the N-Tec).
 
 

I think much of the HVR hate is exaggerated beyond quickswitching.

I think much of the HVR hate isn't exaggerated enough beyond quickswitching. Many players think quickswitching is an exclusive issue that can be fixed by changing the accuracy or equip-speed of the gun; but this completely ignores the major impact the HVR's damage has on gameplay in general.

Quickswitching allows a HVR user to compete with dedicated CQC weapons face to face. If the HVR user has any cover available they don't need to quickswitch, but only have to tag an enemy once or twice with their secondary in order to shift combat in their favour.
The HVR then takes on the same role as a shotgun, in which it can neither be rushed nor kited, because any situation that exposes you to the HVR essentially means death.
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#13
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So if I understand this graph correctly, the baseline for assault rifles dictates they will reach max bloom within 0.2 seconds of continous fire. That's insanely fast.

If you want to make the player feel in control, an assault rifle should only reach max bloom if continously fired "through an entire kill", i.e.currently ~0.75 seconds. This would allow assault rifle users to go for faster kills at close range, but force them to slow down at range.
Of course this would also require assault rifles to have a higher TTK than dedicated close range weapons, to ensure they can't just spray them down in CQC (which was the principal issue with the N-Tec).

 

Hi Revoluzzer,

 

The X-axis on the graph isn't time, rather a value that gets incremented each time the weapon fires. For most, they increment on a 0.1 increment, so the first shot will be at 75%, the second shot at 105% (still significantly less cumulative effect than two shots at 100%) and the third at 125%. Of course the time this takes is dependent on the fire rate of the weapon. These are multipliers on accuracy, rather than pure accuracy itself, so a weapon might not hit minimum accuracy for a few shots at 125% of normal accuracy loss.

 

You are correct in saying that a potentially valid balance would be to make the assault rifles only hit max bloom after their kill time (or have their maximum bloom still be reliable within a certain range) and increase their TTK to slower than shorter-range weapons, and this style of balancing is what you will be seeing with the high TTK districts. In APB: Original of course, the assault rifles didn't lose any accuracy for the first three shots within a defined time-frame, but then lost significant amounts and regenerated it very slowly. You'll be able to play with both shortly.


Edited by Qwentle, 18 August 2015 - 01:32 AM.


#14
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I thought whether you burst-fire, tap-fire or go full-auto completely depended upon gun as some were made for full-auto suppression while others were made to value accuracy over everything else. Burst-fire isn't supposed to be a technique used for all guns :/ So weird....

 

Before, everything bar the SHAW and the SMGs tended to be tap fire at different rates. Burst-fire should primarily be the most effective tactic now on the pure Assault Rifles in their given range, but for other weapons different tactics apply. Burst firing an OCA isn't really going to get you anywhere, you'll want to control tap fire the rifles, the LMGs the more bullets the better, and tap firing assault rfiles is still the best choice when you need to finish someone off outside of the weapon's effective range. With the previous balance, the ARs were encroaching on the Rifles too much both in when they were used and in play-style, shifting how they work to emphasise using them in bursts within their niche both allows us to pull their range back (since the burst will likely miss if they're too far away, while a tap won't) while also providing them a unique play-style more in keeping with their archetype.



#15
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You are correct in saying that a potentially valid balance would be to make the assault rifles only hit max bloom after their kill time (or have their maximum bloom still be reliable within a certain range) and increase their TTK to slower than shorter-range weapons, and this style of balancing is what you will be seeing with the high TTK districts. In APB: Original of course, the assault rifles didn't lose any accuracy for the first three shots within a defined time-frame, but then lost significant amounts and regenerated it very slowly. You'll be able to play with both shortly.

This sounds really great. I'm looking forward to it and hope it will also play as it sounds.

And I'm also looking forward to re-playing the RTW configs, because I don't remember them as well as I'd like to.

Edited by Revoluzzer, 18 August 2015 - 02:04 AM.

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#16
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Increase TTK without making the recoil/bloom random and RNG based. Nerf the HVR damage overall and have it dropoff as you get closer.

#17
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I get it, you are trying! But stop only balancing the weapons after TTK in useless FC!

 

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#18
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Before, everything bar the SHAW and the SMGs tended to be tap fire at different rates. Burst-fire should primarily be the most effective tactic now on the pure Assault Rifles in their given range, but for other weapons different tactics apply. Burst firing an OCA isn't really going to get you anywhere, you'll want to control tap fire the rifles, the LMGs the more bullets the better, and tap firing assault rfiles is still the best choice when you need to finish someone off outside of the weapon's effective range. With the previous balance, the ARs were encroaching on the Rifles too much both in when they were used and in play-style, shifting how they work to emphasise using them in bursts within their niche both allows us to pull their range back (since the burst will likely miss if they're too far away, while a tap won't) while also providing them a unique play-style more in keeping with their archetype.

 

Seems to me you had more flexibility with the old bloom mechanics in making more varied types of guns.   As bloom on a gun made you adjust on the fly how fast you should be tapping.  This changed based on the gun's bloom rate and the distance your target is.  The old (non ninja nerfed) Frenzy, FAR, and STAR showed this because all 3 handled very different.  Now all the AR's handle nearly identical.   Very samey, very boring.  Who cares which one I pick, it fires the same!  Also it seems to lock in HS3 as a required mod for all AR's to keep some sort of accuracy.  

 

You guys know you only had a few guns that were too strong and only a few that were too weak, and that the community offered some valid ideas for fixing those?  You didn't need to go and make each class of gun handle a specific way.  Damage ramp up (like the DMR) could have given you some fixes for guns you felt were too powerful up close.  It wouldn't have made sense, but neither do the current guns, so who cares!  

 

And now all future guns will be required to have the same mechanic, which locks you down again into keeping all guns samey.  I just hope you guys don't say "this is final." Continue to make adjustments to guns ALWAYS.  I get it, we are going down this path now, you aren't going to listen to the community and revert, but please don't close the book on guns.  Things like the COBR and ISSR line still need to be fixed (like seriously, do you even use these guns?).  And with the new gun balance, things like the Carbine need to be looked at, as it's the only rifle that didn't get the new mechanic.  

 

If this changes with the weapon TTK district then forgive my statements but you AREN'T CLEAR about what is going on so I felt the need to comment now.  


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#19
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I find it weird how few replies this threads has. Its the quentle himself explaining what they are doing, where are all those people who made tons of threads against him?

Edited by juice, 18 August 2015 - 12:23 PM.


#20
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I find it weird how few replies this threads has. Its the quentle himself explaining what they are doing, where are all those people who made tons of threads against him?

 

They're divided amongst a dozen or so new posts by staff.

 

 

 

"Burst-fire should primarily be the most effective tactic now on the pure Assault Rifles in their given range,"

 

"the ARs were encroaching on the Rifles too much"

 

"while also providing them a unique play-style more in keeping with their archetype."

 

What about the rifles encroaching on everything else at any range with 850 dmg too much?

 

How does one boast unique play-style when these passes are being made across the board? Telling me that I wouldn't use burst-fire on an OCA isn't revolutionary, or even a change in tactic. It's what it has been all this time.

 

When you have gun classes, there should be some overlapping and encroachment. Removing that encroachment forces a more rock/paper/scissor fight, then the actual unique ability of seeing say an ntec survive a CQC, or a fight vs an HVR.

 

There's 3 major range classes; CQC, Mid-Range, Long Range. Between these class, you have hybrids; CQC-Mid, CQC-Mid-Long Mid-Long. These hybrids are integral to blending the 3 R/P/S ranges. The AR class (STAR, NTEC), I always felt was that middle ground hybrid of CQC-Mid-Long. It could manage all 3 in a balanced fashion, but could be outperformed in any of those ranges with a focused weapon and tactic for that given range. The AR felt like the "jack-of-all-trades" series of weapons in the game. They were a reliable, go-to choice when situational guns didn't fit the situation.

 

I think Revo offered up a great compromise, and I'm personally glad you a lot recognized and acknowledged it. It simply makes more sense for the guns to go haywire outside of their TTK, than force random additional anomalies within their TTK. Punish people for doing it wrong, not doing it right.

 

In a game that has crippling physics and performance issues, I don't understand the methodology behind increasing the amount of bullet traffic in the game. Telling people to spam shaws and burst-firing ARs for the majority of their clips over tap-firing (now supposedly to only be utilized when you're wasting bullets that barely scratch your Opp at range), could not be good for the server, or overall experience.


Edited by BuggedOut, 18 August 2015 - 01:43 PM.

It'd take a big (Sequel-worthy?) overhaul, to render APB on Gemini (Multi-threaded rendering) and bring it up to spec. The way the game is rendered now...that's a huge job. Shedding light on APB's performance issues

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#21
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They're divided amongst a dozen or so new posts by staff.

 

 

 

 

What about the rifles encroaching on everything else at any range with 850 dmg too much?

 

How does one boast unique play-style when these passes are being made across the board? Telling me that I wouldn't use burst-fire on an OCA isn't revolutionary, or even a change in tactic. It's what it has been all this time.

 

When you have gun classes, there should be some overlapping and encroachment. Removing that encroachment forces a more rock/paper/scissor fight, then the actual unique ability of seeing say an ntec survive a CQC, or a fight vs an HVR.

 

There's 3 major range classes; CQC, Mid-Range, Long Range. Between these class, you have hybrids; CQC-Mid, CQC-Mid-Long Mid-Long. These hybrids are integral to blending the 3 R/P/S ranges. The AR class (STAR, NTEC), I always felt was that middle ground hybrid of CQC-Mid-Long. It could manage all 3 in a balanced fashion, but could be outperformed in any of those ranges with a focused weapon and tactic for that given range. The AR felt like the "jack-of-all-trades" series of weapons in the game. They were a reliable, go-to choice when situational guns didn't fit the situation.

 

I think Revo offered up a great compromise, and I'm personally glad you a lot recognized and acknowledged it. It simply makes more sense for the guns to go haywire outside of their TTK, than force random additional anomalies within their TTK. Punish people for doing it wrong, not doing it right.

I agree with most of this, but I would like to point out that before the changes the Ntec was, both on paper and in my experience playing it, the king of mid range with little contention. The Star fit the jack of all trades roll being both slightly worse ttk wise close range and slightly worse tap fire wise mid range, but then the Ntec out did the Star in almost every way if used well. The only gun that really gave the Ntec a run for its money mid-range to me was an Obeya CR with HB2 which is not what people normally use on the Obeya. While a Star and an Obeya without HB in mid range would in my book be a close fight before all of the changes the Ntec edged both of them out by a bit. There are quite a few other guns as well that could all put up a fight against each other mid range, but just didn't seem to match the Ntec.

 

That was my problem with the Ntec, Vas-c2, and HVR before the changes with the Ntec actually being the one I had the least problem with. All of them were/are the absolute best at something as far as I am concerned without anything that left them truly vulnerable in any situation. Even the HVR in the test district wasn't that bad cqc if you used cover a bit. If you switched weapons as soon as jumping and used marksmanship mode the whole time you were in the air you had full accuracy as soon as you hit the ground so I got quite a few slow-switches on people where I would tag them a couple times with an fbw, go behind a corner, jump around the corner switching weapons in the air, and kill them the instant I hit the ground. It was certainly more difficult than a standard quick-switch, but it still worked quite well.

 

I don't have any problem with jack of all trades weapons and I think the Star is a great jack of all trades. The problem is/was that some weapons are a jack of all trades and an ace of one.


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#22
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There's 3 major range classes; CQC, Mid-Range, Long Range. Between these class, you have hybrids; CQC-Mid, CQC-Mid-Long Mid-Long. These hybrids are integral to blending the 3 R/P/S ranges. The AR class (STAR, NTEC), I always felt was that middle ground hybrid of CQC-Mid-Long. It could manage all 3 in a balanced fashion, but could be outperformed in any of those ranges with a focused weapon and tactic for that given range. The AR felt like the "jack-of-all-trades" series of weapons in the game. They were a reliable, go-to choice when situational guns didn't fit the situation.

The problem there is people who fail to take out players using say the ntec in cqc will call it broken. People never really look to adapt to weapons they just keep doing the same thing over and over. Very few will switch to something that will aid them in taking down that weapon. The ntec was never hard to beat in cqc. Regardless people will cry when they lose a fight to something that isn't necessarily designed for that "area". I'll never understand why people always underrate the star either. The gun is just like the ntec. You have to LEARN THE PLAYSTYLE of the guns you choose to use. Which personally I find to be the problem. No one ever wants to do that because they do bad in 1-2 missions and "rage quit" the gun. 

 

Edit: The only gun that i've found to be a real issue is the hvr. Due to Constant scout changes and the drop off change.


Edited by RespectThis / Selden, 18 August 2015 - 02:57 PM.

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#23
Cherohala

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So if I understand this graph correctly, the baseline for assault rifles dictates they will reach max bloom within 0.2 seconds of continous fire. That's insanely fast.

If you want to make the player feel in control, an assault rifle should only reach max bloom if continously fired "through an entire kill", i.e.currently ~0.75 seconds. This would allow assault rifle users to go for faster kills at close range, but force them to slow down at range.
Of course this would also require assault rifles to have a higher TTK than dedicated close range weapons, to ensure they can't just spray them down in CQC (which was the principal issue with the N-Tec).
 
 
I think much of the HVR hate isn't exaggerated enough beyond quickswitching. Many players think quickswitching is an exclusive issue that can be fixed by changing the accuracy or equip-speed of the gun; but this completely ignores the major impact the HVR's damage has on gameplay in general.

Quickswitching allows a HVR user to compete with dedicated CQC weapons face to face. If the HVR user has any cover available they don't need to quickswitch, but only have to tag an enemy once or twice with their secondary in order to shift combat in their favour.
The HVR then takes on the same role as a shotgun, in which it can neither be rushed nor kited, because any situation that exposes you to the HVR essentially means death.

 

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#24
BuggedOut

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I agree with most of this, but I would like to point out that before the changes the Ntec was, both on paper and in my experience playing it, the king of mid range with little contention. The Star fit the jack of all trades roll being both slightly worse ttk wise close range and slightly worse tap fire wise mid range, but then the Ntec out did the Star in almost every way if used well. The only gun that really gave the Ntec a run for its money mid-range to me was an Obeya CR with HB2 which is not what people normally use on the Obeya. While a Star and an Obeya without HB in mid range would in my book be a close fight before all of the changes the Ntec edged both of them out by a bit. There are quite a few other guns as well that could all put up a fight against each other mid range, but just didn't seem to match the Ntec.

 

That was my problem with the Ntec, Vas-c2, and HVR before the changes with the Ntec actually being the one I had the least problem with. All of them were/are the absolute best at something as far as I am concerned without anything that left them truly vulnerable in any situation. Even the HVR in the test district wasn't that bad cqc if you used cover a bit. If you switched weapons as soon as jumping and used marksmanship mode the whole time you were in the air you had full accuracy as soon as you hit the ground so I got quite a few slow-switches on people where I would tag them a couple times with an fbw, go behind a corner, jump around the corner switching weapons in the air, and kill them the instant I hit the ground. It was certainly more difficult than a standard quick-switch, but it still worked quite well.

 

I don't have any problem with jack of all trades weapons and I think the Star is a great jack of all trades. The problem is/was that some weapons are a jack of all trades and an ace of one.

 

I agree with you there. Also, before the buff to the STAR was made to help noobies cope with gun rental cost and opp with 3-slotters and mods, the N-TEC was supposed to be the transitional gun from the STAR. There is a reason why the LCRs were retired from ARMAS, but there is also reason why they originally existed; to give those who wanted to continue to use the STAR, an opportunity to do so on par with 3-slot/mod capabilities. The LCR's were also the only alternative to the N-TEC in the CQC-Mid-Long range class. So you had 1 gun representing 1 unique hybrid range, but it just so happened to be the most versatile of the hybrid ranges, being accessible in 3 ranges rather than 1 or 2. Nowadays, you don't need an LCR to main the STAR...it's good enough stock in most cases, but it's still no N-Tec. I also believe the LCRs were stealth nerfed sometime post STAR buff. I think the stopping power of the gun is just a bit stronger than stock (Which puts them relatively closer to N-TEC, but still sacrifices a hair of TTK for accuracy). I'd gladly be corrected by someone who owns the gun now.

 

The N-TEC stood out, because with all the hybrids and re-skins, for the longest time there was no true alternative rival to it but another NTEC or one of it's variants. This also causes an inflation in their usage (and in G1s statistics/graphs); when no other gun acts like an N-tec. I don't understand why this is a bad thing though, as it reflects gun distribution on a real-life battlefield. The majority of weapons you see in war are assault rifles- with snipers, suppression (lmgs) and trench fighters (shotties,smgs) sugar coating the rest of the field.

 

The assault rifle by design is made to be a versatile, balanced weapon that can handle a broad spectrum of range. The AK-47 is tooted as one of the most influential weapons of our time. It's the same issue developers encounter when attempting to balance ranged characters and melee characters in medieval combat. Ranged fighting was the evolution of melee combat, as the AK-47 was a weapon that could rival in the most scenarios. It's not always easy to balance entities such as these.

 

If they felt that the N-Tec was hurting their profit margin because all their crazy ARMAS guns are unappealing in comparison- They'd be right. make. more. assault. rifles. Bring back the LCRs. You had the right idea with the FAR- but then you went and did all this whacky stuff with the gun mechanics in some attempt to both balance and spice things up at the same time, and I'm kind of running out of words for it...

 

It's very easy to forgo principles when there is profit to be made. It's a complex that a good portion of the world is facing. We give trophies to kids for being "participants" in competitions they lose, so they don't feel left out. Just as this game is slowly being watered down so casuals don't feel left out or totally defeated by the competitive/hardcore aspect of this community. Instead of teaching people how to play the game better, let's bend the game in their favor; they're happy, and we make money. It's more efficient to dumb a game down, than rely on individual human intelligence of thousands of people to comprehend the curve they have entered into.

 

Statistically, the competitive/hardcore community of this game, is severely outnumbered by it's casual/carebear community, both physically & financially. And no, I'm not differentiating Bronze/Silver from Gold, because there are plenty of gold and those who teeter on the fence of gold, who don't fall into the category of competitive/hardcore. They are going to bow to the wishes of the majority, even if the majority is wrong- even if the minority is more vocal and to some degree correct. Its the majority that fills their pockets. Granted, there are exceptions; but most veterans have everything they need, and are set in their ways, only changing when patches shift them from their comfort zone. That doesn't make the Reloaded Devlopers and staff bad people, it makes the corporation they work for, a business.

 

If you're (Qwentle) asking if I'd be willing to go back to RTW TTK, with the bloom mechanic Revo described (and we can forget this mess of other stuff EVER happened); just do it now and take my money.

 

Casuals/Newbies are

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Ripe and ready for the plucking (of their dollars).

 

Hardcore/Veterans are

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Dried up, aged, and can sit on a shelf (like most do in social).

 

Never forget, there are health benefits to raisins.


Edited by BuggedOut, 18 August 2015 - 04:56 PM.

It'd take a big (Sequel-worthy?) overhaul, to render APB on Gemini (Multi-threaded rendering) and bring it up to spec. The way the game is rendered now...that's a huge job. Shedding light on APB's performance issues

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#25
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I dont get the HVR hate. The gun is just fine. If you guys want more trick shots go play Gun Z or something lol

 

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#26
Deatric™

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Nevermind, I digress


Edited by Deatric™, 18 August 2015 - 09:42 PM.

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#27
Revoluzzer

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There's 3 major range classes; CQC, Mid-Range, Long Range. Between these class, you have hybrids; CQC-Mid, CQC-Mid-Long Mid-Long.

Using only three ranges is over-simplified. In my opinion you should use at least five, if not six "classes", which then can have hybrids between them.

  • The "mid-range-point" is basically 40m.

    CQC - up to 10m
    Close range - 10-30m
    Medium range - 30-50m
    Long range - 50-70m
    Marksman range - 70-85m
    Sniper range - 85-100m


    Using 50m as "mid-range" doesn't make sense, because only snipers are truly relevant past 85m. In addition the draw-distance does only cover the full 100m in marksman-mode of low-FOV weapons.

    I've gone a little more into detail about that here.
Having "only" 100m to work with might suggest that less is more here, but quite the opposite is the case, I think. With only three range "classes" you essentially have to define 50m as the mid-range point, but APB gameplay doesn't really support this concept.

Close-range weapons having an effective range of 30m is already a doubtful design decision, because in APB this is quite a lot of range. Not only in relation to the entire available spectrum, but also to the relevance that close range has over long range.

 
 

I agree with you there. Also, before the buff to the STAR was made to help noobies cope with gun rental cost and opp with 3-slotters and mods, the N-TEC was supposed to be the transitional gun from the STAR. There is a reason why the LCRs were retired from ARMAS, but there is also reason why they originally existed; to give those who wanted to continue to use the STAR, an opportunity to do so on par with 3-slot/mod capabilities.

This is a false conception. The N-Tec is not supposed to be strictly superior to the STAR. Neither is the LCR supposed to give STAR-users a possible upgrade, it was a re-release of the original RTW STAR / starter weapon.
The STAR 556 was created to replace the LCR as starter weapon, because the LCR did a terrible job of teaching new players the basic gun mechanics.

Edited by Revoluzzer, 18 August 2015 - 11:39 PM.

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#28
BuggedOut

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Using only three ranges is over-simplified. In my opinion you should use at least five, if not six "classes", which then can have hybrids between them.


  • I've gone a little more into detail about that here.
The N-Tec is not supposed to be strictly superior to the STAR.

 

RTW Star vs RTW N-Tec open field, I go with the N-Tec winning. It may not be how it should be (which I agree with), but it's how it is and has been.

I think my wording may have given off the misnomer I was describing only 3 range classes- this is not the case. Including the 3 other hybrid ranges, it lines up to what you laid out. Even in the hypothetical case of 3, The dead "Mid" of overall combat is 50M, where ~40M, is the soft "median" for combat in accordance with mechanics of the system used within 100M (as you have so kindly explained to people in the past). Same meaning, different choice of vocabulary (The guns in parenthesis are just examples of what is seen in these ranges, and used loosely):

  • CQC - 10M (SMG/Shottie)
  • CQC-Mid - 10-30 (SMG/Shottie/PMG/Carbine/AR)
  • Mid:- 30-50 (PMG/Carbine/AR)
  • Mid-Long: 50-70 (AR/Rifle)
  • Mid-Long: 70-85 (Rifle)
  • Long: 85-100 (HV-Rifle)

Most ARs can be used in 3 of the 6 range tiers, while other guns are mainly only utilized in 1-2 range tiers (as I mentioned in my previous post). I also made sure to say my examples for each range are loose, because obviously people can find success with almost any gun <10m if you know how to aim. Some gun classes can bleed over into other range tiers as we see in game pretty often. Here's a tidbit: LMG's are not listed, and actually are involved in 4 out of 6 range tiers. They're more versatile than even the AR's, but are manned less because of their bulk and less reliability (HitReg, Physics, GPU-Performance).

 

The LCR PR2 is an amazing gun (The peanut butter & jelly of mod combos; IR3/HS3? comon now)- simply out of it's time. In it's day, when all the other guns were using the RTW TTK values, The STAR was definitely more on par with with the NTEC (but still lost out) than any other gun u could buy before rifleman 10. Until the FAR, the N-Tec's only direct competition, was it's own variants & reskins.


Edited by BuggedOut, 19 August 2015 - 01:02 AM.

It'd take a big (Sequel-worthy?) overhaul, to render APB on Gemini (Multi-threaded rendering) and bring it up to spec. The way the game is rendered now...that's a huge job. Shedding light on APB's performance issues

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
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#29
policemonkey

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Wow, after 4 years of complete denial to consider a change in the TTK. With the boatload of new weapons that were added, you guys have created yourself a monumental task.

 

May i suggest to revert to the old sprint/shot mechanics where it was necessary to release the sprint button to fire a weapon, while you are at rebalancing. The server performance just doesnt support the current mechanics. People that use semi-automatic weapons just warp all over the place while strafe/sprint/hipfire them.


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#30
Nattali

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Tried both districts, i have to say RTW dis is aweful

all auto weapons bloom the same way crosshair gets so big after 10 shots which makes some weapons like oca and shaw impossible to use, not going to talk about no recoil...awkward...

 

but i really REALLY liked he high TTK district, i like it that i can control my gun...



#31
Ysaline

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i would say it turns out that its actually horrible, on normal district  you kill be4 you get any FPS drops but there its the exact oposite


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#32
Jaw5

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How do trick shots have anything to do with this? What I want is a gun that doesn't easily dominate at every single weapon from 0-100m. In the current state of the game and before the balance changes there is no possible way for me to be as effective as I am with the HVR with any other gun in the game. Also it is so drastic that unless I am significantly better than my opposition my only choice when someone pulls out an HVR is to pull my own out or be a significant disadvantage.

 

The HVR has a TTK of .72 seconds. In reality it's more like two seconds. I consistently beat HVR users with my Obeya. It has 0.84 seconds TTK, which means I can kill them twice before they can get off that second bullet. This is within 60m. Outside that the HVR users usually get me, but that is fair. 

If you have trouble with an HVR, just get to the optimal range of your wepaon, and you will beat them every time in a duel. 

 

I don't think they should mess with the TTK of the weapons when it's as balanced as it is at the moment. It will be a horrible year for APB while they try to rebalance all the weapons..


Edited by Jaw5, 19 August 2015 - 08:40 AM.


#33
Chrispe

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The HVR has a TTK of .72 seconds. In reality it's more like two seconds. I consistently beat HVR users with my Obeya. It has 0.84 seconds TTK, which means I can kill them twice before they can get off that second bullet. This is within 60m. Outside that the HVR users usually get me, but that is fair. 

If you have trouble with an HVR, just get to the optimal range of your wepaon, and you will beat them every time in a duel. 

 

I don't think they should mess with the TTK of the weapons when it's as balanced as it is at the moment. It will be a horrible year for APB while they try to rebalance all the weapons..

You are completely ignoring quickswitching, team play, and cover all of which make the HVR far better than any other gun in the game. If you are killing HVR users consistently at 60m then they are playing extremely poorly and lack any sense of how to play the game and use cover.


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#34
Ange1ofD4rkness

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Oh great I see the HVR rants and sparking back up again.

Let me make this clear from someone who has been using it for years. Quick Switching is what makes the gun broken. Before that was an issue no one complained about it. I know, I used it for a long time like I said (I never had a person rage to me in chat about using the HVR).

I mean shoot, it's just like in the end of the RTW days when it could quick switch, it became over powered. May I remind you it has one of the slowest TTKs in the game. And yes while that first punch can hit hard, if you know how to fight the gun, it can make it very hard for that first punch to even hit you. If people would learn more about the gun, they'd know how to counter it rather easily. I mean that's why it's not the only gun in my arsenal, because I know sometimes it's a bad gun to have.

Also hope those Original Districts last awhile I really want to try them out (but I am gone on business for some time so won't be able to play APB)


Edited by Ange1ofD4rkness, 19 August 2015 - 02:13 PM.

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#35
<Flavor>Jenni

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The HVR has a TTK of .72 seconds. In reality it's more like two seconds. I consistently beat HVR users with my Obeya. It has 0.84 seconds TTK, which means I can kill them twice before they can get off that second bullet. This is within 60m. Outside that the HVR users usually get me, but that is fair.

If you have trouble with an HVR, just get to the optimal range of your wepaon, and you will beat them every time in a duel.

I don't think they should mess with the TTK of the weapons when it's as balanced as it is at the moment. It will be a horrible year for APB while they try to rebalance all the weapons..


Non-QS HVR TTK is 1.75s; QS HVR TTK is anywhere from .67s to .75s (depending on what secondary you use) I don't know if that's what you meant to type, but that .72 makes your post odd.

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#36
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First things first, why they think they need to rebalance ALL guns when there are really just a few guns that need a closer look. And they ballanced most of them in the first wave of test districts. Yea some if them still have isuses but those can be solveď rather quickly. For example i really like how they changed hvr. I m long time hvr user and I find it to be completely ok. On the other hand ntec was nerferd a bit too much. Either make it harder to use or nerf dmg but both. That made it useless when compared to other ARs. Not mentioning general mechanic that rewards you for shooting over time. Second thing. All the time they spent "balacing" should have better been invested in Engine update or new MM. They also mentioned new FREE TO PLAY content in their blogpost...why do i see only to armas only season pass packs being released? And they are putting new guns along that. They don't know what to do with guns currently in game and are adding new once... I would appretiate new districts, contacts, bigger wariety of missions, more free to play content in general. The only really good thing released lately is FAR system. But that should have been done years ago... To sum it up I really enjoy this game, i have spent almost 4 years playing this game but all i see is that if you want to enjoy this game to the fullest you either need to have good friends or you have to spent quite a lot of money. Luckylli I am the first case and I don't plan spending my money on this game until I ll see Engine update, new MM and more f2p content. So far (almost 4 years) G1 has not made anything to deserve my money.

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#37
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all i wanna hear is "we are going to kill quickswitch and lower the damage of nhvr slightly"

nothing else.


Edited by Louis., 21 August 2015 - 11:18 PM.

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#38
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How do trick shots have anything to do with this? What I want is a gun that doesn't easily dominate at every single weapon from 0-100m. In the current state of the game and before the balance changes there is no possible way for me to be as effective as I am with the HVR with any other gun in the game. Also it is so drastic that unless I am significantly better than my opposition my only choice when someone pulls out an HVR is to pull my own out or be a significant disadvantage.

I understand you. The gun is powerful from 1-100 meters and it is still easy tag with you secondary and swap to you hvr close up. It would be nice to have the damage ramp up at similar range to the DMR but at maybe 60 meters instead of 80+. Keeps the HVRs damage higher than the DMR below effective range but beyond have it do the full damage.

This would eliminate a lot of the up close solo quickswaping we love to abuse.

Edited by illgot, 23 August 2015 - 05:21 PM.


#39
Ysaline

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#40
Etsukoo

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I think the perfect weapon balance would be going a bit back in the game,

 

Shotgun make it back to how it was a few years ago

Scout make it back to how it was a few years ago

Oca don't change anything Fix the cj3 to how it was b4.

ntec reverse the latest nerf

Tommygun reverse the nerfs done.

Obeya and obir are fine correct me if im wrong and i do think they'd do fine in that meta aswell.

 

The rest of the unbalanced guns should get a lil tweak and change arround with i don't think u should edit the core weapons to much in the game you barely see that happening in most games. or maybe a slight tweak but no major tweaks like apb does currently,

 

After that is done increase the health of the player to kevlar 2 and remove kevlar from the game, You will have a higher ttk and all the guns are quite balanced then.

 

Remove car surfer from the game and edit car spawners that you can spawn in it evry ... minutes.

 

I also do think you should stop making new weapons untill you got a good balance in apb


Edited by Etsukoo, 26 August 2015 - 11:40 AM.

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