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Faster assault rifle's /smg's


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#81
Captain Stabulous

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And it would have nothing to do with the scope mutations or duel wield, like id said above your comment, i'm suggesting its on drop down command, not on hotkey. To have it on hotkey would be alot more complicated and there wouldn't be much point of it when there is simpler ways more friendly to their scripting. It would require alittle work to add in, but I don't see any reason why it would conflict with any scripts on an inexperienced point of view. Having it on hotkey would allow people to exploit it very easily, while people having to go ontop drop-down menu would not only be friendly on the script (In comparison) but it would also stop people being able to spam changing modes so often. I come up with the idea more to be friendly between PvP and PvE scenario's where you know whats going to happen.


Mhm. I actually have all of those guns on at least one of my characters. Then again, I do RP. Basically, I just hope they try to implement that to in game. I mean heck, there isn't even an endgame SMG. I think that there need to be a couple of weapons endgame that are faster than typical guns.

Edit: Sorry Violet, meant to message the other guy who was talking about the biohazard rifle.

Edited by Captain Stabulous, 02 May 2014 - 06:52 AM.


#82
violetnight666x

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With a .3 delay with the current damage you'd be doing 262 DPS, which is far beyond any other weapon's DPS. It would eliminate the purpose of pistols (Just as the AR should have never gone above 190 but they decided 204) in terms of viability outside of maybe Concentration Stance on an extreme AP tight point. Not to mention the fact, unlike dual wield, you won't bug on charge shots which pushes pistols along with 1h melee back even further.

"Dance" is a standard term instead of saying "strafe". There's a reason behind it, yet there's a reason you need solid accuracy to take down a target in an "MMORPG". Melee are mostly strong current due to poor changes to snarebreaks which now make it far easier to dispel snares, so the "mobility" of the standard player has gone waaaaay up so for melee that's a giant boost since they are required to get (and stay) in range.

A target self healing even if they "heal to full" will still die if you have consistent DPS on them, resources do not last forever and self-healing only is effective enough to out heal maybe a shotgun especially if they apply enough pressure.

Melee/Range Defense hardly changes much of anything, yet I do agree rifles should not have a reduction to melee defense even if it's only 1% to 12% dodge passive reduction. The range, however, is not the issue. During 1.9 and before melee were hard-countered by snares when they were used properly along with kiting. Cover was far more important because you couldn't just "ignore" players with poor aim since you'd dispel a snare in less than a second. At the same time, burst is at an all-time high to where a solid group will kill a player instantly if they are stupid enough to "rush in".

The "split up" idea can work, in small scale and large scale fights. The problem is it's rather problematic if players can preform the roles well enough to make it work. At the same time, it's not just damage... it's healing and coordination. It's not an FPS, it's an RPG. You must take all factors into consideration, and in the current "META" play the idea of sitting out of range is extremely poor unless you can clear a distance of 30+ meters while not harming your team's healing potential. But it also means not getting killed instantly for being way out of position for anyone to save you.

It's also not "just" melee that are living forever, it's any weapon type. But it's definitely an issue since you have no real "counters" to melee, so they have a strong place in the game currently.

But I don't disagree melee have a large, large, large advantage in the current build. But the reasons behind why it's as strong as it is is something players would cry bloody murder if they handled snares/snarebreaks.


....Must admit (Awesome as it would be for those using AR's) Having them do 90 per bullet at 0.3-0.2 would be an over kill (Fun as it would be, wasn't fully serious when i said that i agree on it) I do however at times see no reason why they cant make AR's faster and balance the damage out to = round bout 200 DPS. people say faster AR's would be bad for PvP because the aim, so bring the DPS to the same or round bout same as now with faster rate of fire, and surely on a PvP point of view that does not bring them to such a dis-advantage, its still the same DPS afterall, or round about. Realistically if it was 0.3 delay id want round bout 195 DPS tops, 0.2 delay id want bout 180 DPS tops.

Not suggesting this is what they do (Intentionally) I'm simply stating, in an ideal, that's how id want my vol shark.

#83
violetnight666x

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Mhm. I actually have all of those guns on at least one of my characters. Then again, I do RP. Basically, I just hope they try to implement that to in game. I mean heck, there isn't even an endgame SMG. I think that there need to be a couple of weapons endgame that are faster than typical guns.

Edit: Sorry Violet, meant to message the other guy who was talking about the biohazard rifle.


You fail! :sniped: :frantic:

#84
Danny McKillop

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With a .3 delay with the current damage you'd be doing 262 DPS, which is far beyond any other weapon's DPS. It would eliminate the purpose of pistols (Just as the AR should have never gone above 190 but they decided 204) in terms of viability outside of maybe Concentration Stance on an extreme AP tight point. Not to mention the fact, unlike dual wield, you won't bug on charge shots which pushes pistols along with 1h melee back even further.

"Dance" is a standard term instead of saying "strafe". There's a reason behind it, yet there's a reason you need solid accuracy to take down a target in an "MMORPG". Melee are mostly strong current due to poor changes to snarebreaks which now make it far easier to dispel snares, so the "mobility" of the standard player has gone waaaaay up so for melee that's a giant boost since they are required to get (and stay) in range.

A target self healing even if they "heal to full" will still die if you have consistent DPS on them, resources do not last forever and self-healing only is effective enough to out heal maybe a shotgun especially if they apply enough pressure.

Melee/Range Defense hardly changes much of anything, yet I do agree rifles should not have a reduction to melee defense even if it's only 1% to 12% dodge passive reduction. The range, however, is not the issue. During 1.9 and before melee were hard-countered by snares when they were used properly along with kiting. Cover was far more important because you couldn't just "ignore" players with poor aim since you'd dispel a snare in less than a second. At the same time, burst is at an all-time high to where a solid group will kill a player instantly if they are stupid enough to "rush in".

The "split up" idea can work, in small scale and large scale fights. The problem is it's rather problematic if players can preform the roles well enough to make it work. At the same time, it's not just damage... it's healing and coordination. It's not an FPS, it's an RPG. You must take all factors into consideration, and in the current "META" play the idea of sitting out of range is extremely poor unless you can clear a distance of 30+ meters while not harming your team's healing potential. But it also means not getting killed instantly for being way out of position for anyone to save you.

It's also not "just" melee that are living forever, it's any weapon type. But it's definitely an issue since you have no real "counters" to melee, so they have a strong place in the game currently.

But I don't disagree melee have a large, large, large advantage in the current build. But the reasons behind why it's as strong as it is is something players would cry bloody murder if they handled snares/snarebreaks.



You just gave me the line I hate "Its a MMO, not a FPS" I just went on to explain I know this fact, I said so, and also the fact your talking about not harming my team and Cac... why even bother saying that? Im saying the fact Rifles have poor range is cac full stop, so we cant pick off a melee guy befor he gets up to us.

O and resources run out? Ever sense dome we can hold 5000s worth in a stack of bandages

And come on dude, make up your mind please you first say the Split up thing will work, then go on to say its problematic if it works..... What is it, if it dos not work? I mean it should only be problematic if this dos not work. Makes my head hurt man, really dos. And Pistols to be honest I couldn't careless if they were weaker than rifles, Rifles fire larger calibers; therefore its a stronger round and should kill anyone I shot with the damn thing, I want people to lay on the ground and cry after I hit them with a rifle round to the knee, I don't want them to run at me going "AHA! YOUR RIFLE ROUND IS PUNNY TO MY KEVLAR DERMIC SKIN!" But then agean, As I say, Dont get a realism Logic lover like me ruin your day, If you like it (Thumbs up) Fair play, but me? Hate it.

#85
Reaps989

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You just gave me the line I hate "Its a MMO, not a FPS" I just went on to explain I know this fact, I said so, and also the fact your talking about not harming my team and Cac... why even bother saying that? Im saying the fact Rifles have poor range is cac full stop, so we cant pick off a melee guy befor he gets up to us.

O and resources run out? Ever sense dome we can hold 5000s worth in a stack of bandages

And come on dude, make up your mind please you first say the Split up thing will work, then go on to say its problematic if it works..... What is it, if it dos not work? I mean it should only be problematic if this dos not work. Makes my head hurt man, really dos. And Pistols to be honest I couldn't careless if they were weaker than rifles, Rifles fire larger calibers; therefore its a stronger round and should kill anyone I shot with the damn thing, I want people to lay on the ground and cry after I hit them with a rifle round to the knee, I don't want them to run at me going "AHA! YOUR RIFLE ROUND IS PUNNY TO MY KEVLAR DERMIC SKIN!" But then agean, As I say, Dont get a realism Logic lover like me ruin your day, If you like it (Thumbs up) Fair play, but me? Hate it.


Because FE was in it's prime during the time it was more RPG than FPS, which is true.

Bandages are a reagent, not a resource. The resources are health, stamina, and gamma. All of which cannot be sustained forever during a proper fight. Health can be healed by consumes, gamma, and obviously stamina so it's pretty easy to sustain health. The problem then is your stamina and gamma, both of which cannot be sustained under constant pressure. Even then, maximum self-HPS is only stronger than a Shotgun before critical hits or charge shots are applied.

Um... what "Assault Rifle" in FE uses a higher caliber than even a light pistol? Most are highly unlikely to have anything higher than 5.56 to 7.9mm. No, most automatic rifles do not hold a higher caliber than a pistol (let alone a magnum. Now maybe some of the "Battle Rifles" and "Sniper Rifles" will beat quite a few of the pistols.

Causing enemies to split up works fine in FE if people can do it right, however it's much harder than it used to be. I was explaining "why" it was harder, even if it is still possible.

Sorry but FE would be terrible as an FPS, not to mention most (including yourself) would quit after not being able to win because you've died instantly to Snipers, Rockets, and Grenades. That's a "realism" statement for you, since it would mean every fight Heretic's "Heavy Vehpwnz" group had would end in less than a second regardless of the engagement.

MMOs are always the same in terms of CQC with focus fire will win when fighting a ranged group, the problem is getting to them. In FE there are no real countermeasures due to snares being almost useless to "Suck it Up" compared to the previous option "Renew".

So... out of all of this no point was proven, I don't hate you, and I even corrected you on every point you attempted to make. As interesting as it was, if you want an FPS with twitch gaming you're best off looking elsewhere.

While it has FPS elements, FE had far more success when TTK's were longer than they currently were as there were countermeasures to pretty much everything but took quite a bit to make it work... even then you still could be countered by yet another build.

Edit : I forgot the :thumbsup:

Edited by Reaps989, 02 May 2014 - 06:01 PM.

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#86
Danny McKillop

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Because FE was in it's prime during the time it was more RPG than FPS, which is true.

Bandages are a reagent, not a resource. The resources are health, stamina, and gamma. All of which cannot be sustained forever during a proper fight. Health can be healed by consumes, gamma, and obviously stamina so it's pretty easy to sustain health. The problem then is your stamina and gamma, both of which cannot be sustained under constant pressure. Even then, maximum self-HPS is only stronger than a Shotgun before critical hits or charge shots are applied.

Um... what "Assault Rifle" in FE uses a higher caliber than even a light pistol? Most are highly unlikely to have anything higher than 5.56 to 7.9mm. No, most automatic rifles do not hold a higher caliber than a pistol (let alone a magnum. Now maybe some of the "Battle Rifles" and "Sniper Rifles" will beat quite a few of the pistols.

Causing enemies to split up works fine in FE if people can do it right, however it's much harder than it used to be. I was explaining "why" it was harder, even if it is still possible.

Sorry but FE would be terrible as an FPS, not to mention most (including yourself) would quit after not being able to win because you've died instantly to Snipers, Rockets, and Grenades. That's a "realism" statement for you, since it would mean every fight Heretic's "Heavy Vehpwnz" group had would end in less than a second regardless of the engagement.

MMOs are always the same in terms of CQC with focus fire will win when fighting a ranged group, the problem is getting to them. In FE there are no real countermeasures due to snares being almost useless to "Suck it Up" compared to the previous option "Renew".

So... out of all of this no point was proven, I don't hate you, and I even corrected you on every point you attempted to make. As interesting as it was, if you want an FPS with twitch gaming you're best off looking elsewhere.

While it has FPS elements, FE had far more success when TTK's were longer than they currently were as there were countermeasures to pretty much everything but took quite a bit to make it work... even then you still could be countered by yet another build.

Edit : I forgot the :thumbsup:


I Would not "Rage" ive played alot of games over my lifetime, I respect in fair game of your enemy was a given. And please, Im not saying to make it a damn FPS, Im just saying it be alot nicer if it would make you think, instead of just "Ima run in here, wack a few guys with my hammer and snort meth up my wrist and see what happens" A game were its slow paced, sometimes fast in combat depending were it happens is always the best way to have combat; And that you can do on lower level PVP areas due to the fact you have lower stats than of a High level zone.

Dont think Calling Gamma and that stuff Resources is a very good thing at all, I instantly thought of bandages due to the fact its more correct for the bandages, as it is a authentic Item for usage

And the way you compare pistol cals with rifle cals... ermagurd my head is sore now from reading that, Id like to tell you that there are very huge differences in these cals in muzzle velocity are meter per second.

A simple 9MM cartridge can do around 390 m/s

A 7.62MM Nato dos around 830.... So ya, BIG difference

Ive learned firearms alot from my family, So I know what Im talking about here

#87
violetnight666x

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Because FE was in it's prime during the time it was more RPG than FPS, which is true.

Bandages are a reagent, not a resource. The resources are health, stamina, and gamma. All of which cannot be sustained forever during a proper fight. Health can be healed by consumes, gamma, and obviously stamina so it's pretty easy to sustain health. The problem then is your stamina and gamma, both of which cannot be sustained under constant pressure. Even then, maximum self-HPS is only stronger than a Shotgun before critical hits or charge shots are applied.

Um... what "Assault Rifle" in FE uses a higher caliber than even a light pistol? Most are highly unlikely to have anything higher than 5.56 to 7.9mm. No, most automatic rifles do not hold a higher caliber than a pistol (let alone a magnum. Now maybe some of the "Battle Rifles" and "Sniper Rifles" will beat quite a few of the pistols.

Causing enemies to split up works fine in FE if people can do it right, however it's much harder than it used to be. I was explaining "why" it was harder, even if it is still possible.

Sorry but FE would be terrible as an FPS, not to mention most (including yourself) would quit after not being able to win because you've died instantly to Snipers, Rockets, and Grenades. That's a "realism" statement for you, since it would mean every fight Heretic's "Heavy Vehpwnz" group had would end in less than a second regardless of the engagement.

MMOs are always the same in terms of CQC with focus fire will win when fighting a ranged group, the problem is getting to them. In FE there are no real countermeasures due to snares being almost useless to "Suck it Up" compared to the previous option "Renew".

So... out of all of this no point was proven, I don't hate you, and I even corrected you on every point you attempted to make. As interesting as it was, if you want an FPS with twitch gaming you're best off looking elsewhere.

While it has FPS elements, FE had far more success when TTK's were longer than they currently were as there were countermeasures to pretty much everything but took quite a bit to make it work... even then you still could be countered by yet another build.

Edit : I forgot the :thumbsup:


If I wanted FE to be a fps, I would suggest they bring out 0.05 delay for rifles. 0.2 IS a fair rate of fire for an mmo. We are not asking for assault rifles that fire like APB. Some of us simple want an AR, that actually shoots faster than a semi automatic pistol....is that something really that hard to explain?

Some of the starter AR's even fire as slow as 0.5. This is not an assault rifle, Non of them can really be called Assault rifle's. With the stats of current assault rifle's, even to mmo standard's, They are semi auto's. I have played many mmo's (Granted mostly fantasy since that's what most mmorpg's are) I have played many FPS's too, and in no FPS that i have played has an AR fire'd as slow at 5 shots a second. Even on "the secret world" AR's fire like assault rifles (Though granted they use burst fire so can't really apply to FE shooting standards, But its still an MMO no doubt and it still fire's like an assault rifle)....There is no proper excuse for AR's firing so damn slow, except to satisfy PvP'ers wish to suck PvE dry to improve a dying PvP.

I still think they should just split the stats into two fire modes to please Both side's of the game, personally I don't see why they can't just balance the stats properly to make all guns effective for something while keeping them authentic, but apparently there is a problem with that. :lolhuh:

I must admit I agree with Danny, how one moment you are happy with a split to some extent, next moment you once again just go back to Full automatic ruining balance. Maybe words are being lost in translation alot. Or you simply don't want to fully accept that there is a problem with the current stats of AR's (Which there obviously is a problem with them for people to say there's a problem like this)

.....Just to lighten this up alittle....here's a puppy. :dog:

Edited by violetnight666x, 03 May 2014 - 04:18 AM.


#88
Reaps989

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I Would not "Rage" ive played alot of games over my lifetime, I respect in fair game of your enemy was a given. And please, Im not saying to make it a damn FPS, Im just saying it be alot nicer if it would make you think, instead of just "Ima run in here, wack a few guys with my hammer and snort meth up my wrist and see what happens" A game were its slow paced, sometimes fast in combat depending were it happens is always the best way to have combat; And that you can do on lower level PVP areas due to the fact you have lower stats than of a High level zone.

Dont think Calling Gamma and that stuff Resources is a very good thing at all, I instantly thought of bandages due to the fact its more correct for the bandages, as it is a authentic Item for usage

And the way you compare pistol cals with rifle cals... ermagurd my head is sore now from reading that, Id like to tell you that there are very huge differences in these cals in muzzle velocity are meter per second.

A simple 9MM cartridge can do around 390 m/s

A 7.62MM Nato dos around 830.... So ya, BIG difference

Ive learned firearms alot from my family, So I know what Im talking about here


I don't disagree there should be more thought put into gameplay, yet making a weapon kill faster will not do it when they will still slap you 2-3 times to kill you. Which is an issue with charge shots, just as self-healing is effective if your target missed enough attacks. The name of the game is "pressure", this means you can't just pile on damage expecting it to kill someone. You must be consistent, continue your attack, keep yourself alive, and ultimately pull a win.

In lower level areas you can do that generally when you are a higher level, if you fight a player with a proper build, at least after sector 1, you will run into the same situation of them healing to sustain. Now if you're talking about killing someone lower level then you, then your argument is invalid simply on the fact you have far to many advantages.

Heals do not counter DPS, they give you the ability to sustain for a moment to retaliate. If you can't capitalize on that, you die.

  • "Low Levels" - A level 20+ can heal 166 of it's 392 HP in 5 seconds : Over 42% of total HP
  • "End-Game" - A level 55 can heal 265 of it's 752 HP in 5 seconds : Over 35% of total HP

That's just based off Staunch/Resto, just as an example since they are extremely common. You could factor healing consumes, benevolence, V.O., patch, and possible filtration... but we're going for a "basic" setup for "basic" numbers.

Heals are actually BETTER at earlier levels, while at higher levels you just have more options to sustain said healing via stronger gear/buffs/etc.

A "reagent", in gaming, is generally an item that is used for an "ability" outside of the resource commonly used for that type of "ability. So yes, the correct term for Staunch Wounds using "bandages" is reagent. While your "resources" are infact your HP, Gamma, and Stamina which are used for other abilities as well.

You do know what "caliber" refers to, correct? What you're speaking of is the efficiency of the bullet, especially when compared to the design of a weapon. I recommend looking up the definition, because a 9mm is technically a "larger caliber".


Notice I never brought up efficiency? As most pistols would be nonexistent when compared to said rifles. Which at that point, you'd be better off removing pistols (let alone SMGs) out of the game as they'd have no real benefits.
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#89
Reaps989

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*snip*


I never stated there wasn't a problem with ARs, I stated that AR's would need a damage reduction if their delay was reduced... I was providing a response to his claims with accurate information.

So here we go again apparently...

Since the change ARs are more commonly used in all forms of play, but as I said "if" they make it faster they'd have to lower the damage per shot.


Nysek - Mednaught : The only character in FE made of Gammina™

Walls are for horses, I build gosh darning castles of logic to protect us from your constant rain of derp.

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#90
violetnight666x

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I never stated there wasn't a problem with ARs, I stated that AR's would need a damage reduction if their delay was reduced... I was providing a response to his claims with accurate information.

So here we go again apparently...


(Well you know the rest of the quote)

I know all that, but the bullets wouldn't need to be so weak as to lower the DPS a mommy ton, the bullet could be made weaker, but keeping the AR still at a fair DPS...

For example if the bullets did say 47 damage per shot at 0.2 delay. This would be 4 more damage for every shot of the 0.4 delay Vol shark does at the moment. However it would bring the DPS down to 191.8. This is still a lower DPS, however it causes the gun to do more damage before you have to reload it the first time. Since if there was no reload in the mix the gun would be doing more damage at 0.2 delay with 47. But the moment he reload comes in it lowers the DPS, if you get me. Basically, the bullet damage can still be lowered while making the gun still effective. You would not have to make the gun fall to 180 DPS just because it has 0.2 delay. (I may of said i wouldn't mind if it did in an earlier comment.....to be honest it wouldn't bother me id enjoy using the gun more still) But the gun can be made faster without ruining the DPS balance. It would just take G1 to actually sit back and calculate for a brief moment a fair bullet damage for the delay to actually bring out the most of an authentic AR without making another foul up with it.

By all means they could bring the damage per bullet up further and just add another .5 to the reload and have an AR that not only does good clip damage with a nice RoF but they could also have an AR that completely reach's the end of the reload animation before you fire again.

Edited by violetnight666x, 03 May 2014 - 06:02 AM.


#91
violetnight666x

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To top off what i just said, that is something that annoys me on top, is how they used less delay and lower reload time to make an AR do good DPS....No no no!!! :Rage:

Seriously like, if the Reload took as long as the animation, there would be room for more damage per shot, there would be room to do this with a faster rate of fire.

If the reload was as long as the animation it would probably take about 3 seconds to reload...maybe even 3.5. This would give room for much more damage per shot to keep it at a fair DPS still, surely this would benifit both sides of the spectrum, PvP and PvE, if the gun was made to fit the reload animation before firing again to give more damage per shot.

If that is so would it not be half logical to you, if that could also bring the rate of fire back up, -without- sacrificing too much damage per shot? Yes, the bullets would still need to be weaker. But by no means would they need to be as weak as 50 damage per shot if the reload time was extended to fit the animation.

To be honest I have noticed reload not fitting the animation with several guns, especially my S.I.R (Which frustrates me slightly, would like it the S.I.R has a reload time as long as the animation to give more damage per shot, I like my shotgun to pack a punch)

#92
Reaps989

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(Well you know the rest of the quote)

I know all that, but the bullets wouldn't need to be so weak as to lower the DPS a mommy ton, the bullet could be made weaker, but keeping the AR still at a fair DPS...

For example if the bullets did say 47 damage per shot at 0.2 delay. This would be 4 more damage for every shot of the 0.4 delay Vol shark does at the moment. However it would bring the DPS down to 191.8. This is still a lower DPS, however it causes the gun to do more damage before you have to reload it the first time. Since if there was no reload in the mix the gun would be doing more damage at 0.2 delay with 47. But the moment he reload comes in it lowers the DPS, if you get me. Basically, the bullet damage can still be lowered while making the gun still effective. You would not have to make the gun fall to 180 DPS just because it has 0.2 delay. (I may of said i wouldn't mind if it did in an earlier comment.....to be honest it wouldn't bother me id enjoy using the gun more still) But the gun can be made faster without ruining the DPS balance. It would just take G1 to actually sit back and calculate for a brief moment a fair bullet damage for the delay to actually bring out the most of an authentic AR without making another foul up with it.

By all means they could bring the damage per bullet up further and just add another .5 to the reload and have an AR that not only does good clip damage with a nice RoF but they could also have an AR that completely reach's the end of the reload animation before you fire again.


I never said the DPS should go lower, just that the damage had to be regulated to make sure DPS wasn't insane. I never said lower delay would make it worthless, just less effective in certain levels of play.

As I gave an examples before of values as you've requested... but that's just trying to keep it at 190 DPS area.

  • .3 would be 65 damage per shot which would translate to 189.78 DPS
  • .2 would be 47 damage per shot which would translate to 191.83 DPS
  • .1 would be 28 damage per shot which would translate to 189.83 DPS

It would depend on "what" DPS it needed to be around, that's all. And reload is always a factor in DPS, so we can't exactly point out "what DPS" is there prior to the reload. Because you can't "avoid" the reload, it's always there.
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#93
violetnight666x

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I never said the DPS should go lower, just that the damage had to be regulated to make sure DPS wasn't insane. I never said lower delay would make it worthless, just less effective in certain levels of play.

As I gave an examples before of values as you've requested... but that's just trying to keep it at 190 DPS area.

  • .3 would be 65 damage per shot which would translate to 189.78 DPS
  • .2 would be 47 damage per shot which would translate to 191.83 DPS
  • .1 would be 28 damage per shot which would translate to 189.83 DPS

It would depend on "what" DPS it needed to be around, that's all. And reload is always a factor in DPS, so we can't exactly point out "what DPS" is there prior to the reload. Because you can't "avoid" the reload, it's always there.


I wonder if we should be considering damage per shot at the current 2.0 reload speed, or if we should be considering how it could be at 3.0 reload...If they were to speed up guns I feel it would be logical if they extended reload time to meet it to the animation too.

Im going to give some values keeping the DPS to a fair area, but this is going to consider if the reload time was 3.0 instead.

0.1-34 damage per shot 197.1 DPS
0.2- 53 damage per shot 196.3 DPS
0.3- 73 per shot at 198.6 DPS

I know these are abit above the 190 I said bout before, but this is just a rough example of the difference that could be made if they made the reload take as long as the animation.

If you were to ask me id say that 0.2 is pretty usable.

0.1 not so much, But I never suggested 0.1 for AR's in the first place....suggested that for SMG's.

Edited by violetnight666x, 03 May 2014 - 06:47 AM.


#94
violetnight666x

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Now befor anyone tells me the 0.2 i mentioned with 3.0 reload is not usable for PvP, neverenders are considered by many a very good PvP weapon if I am not mistaken, If people want to compare rifles with pistols, so be it. A neverender pistol has 66 damage per bullet. They fire at 0.5 delay. So two of them would be equivalent of 0.25 delay.

2.5/5 is 0.5....0.5*4 is 2

53 damage is the rifle

66/5 = 13.2
13.2*4 is 52.8

Therefore neverenders would actually damage someone slower than the rifle, (only just) However they maintain a higher DPS because of clip size.

Anyone who uses a neverender, can not tell me that they would not use a rifle at 0.2 delay if it had 53 damage per shot with 3.0 reload. That would be like telling me you would not use neverenders. And that 53 damage was just a rough calculation I made within about 10 minutes along with three other calculations for different speeds.
(Do note I did not time myself, I don't know how long it took me to make the calculations)

This would mean a Vol Shark is still a usable rifle, plus it leaves space for them to make a better rifle in time. With a lower DPS than other gun's, yet with the ability to lay waste within one clip quickly (As noted by Reaps in PvP an AR would not lay waste, because AR's are easy to miss with, Take this into consideration before reply with more FPS gamer wanna be s***)

Edited by violetnight666x, 03 May 2014 - 07:15 AM.


#95
Reaps989

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Now befor anyone tells me the 0.2 i mentioned with 3.0 reload is not usable for PvP, neverenders are considered by many a very good PvP weapon if I am not mistaken, If people want to compare rifles with pistols, so be it. A neverender pistol has 66 damage per bullet. They fire at 0.5 delay. So two of them would be equivalent of 0.25 delay.

2.5/5 is 0.5....0.5*4 is 2

53 damage is the rifle

66/5 = 13.2
13.2*4 is 52.8

Therefore neverenders would actually damage someone slower than the rifle, (only just) However they maintain a higher DPS because of clip size.

Anyone who uses a neverender, can not tell me that they would not use a rifle at 0.2 delay if it had 53 damage per shot with 3.0 reload. That would be like telling me you would not use neverenders. And that 53 damage was just a rough calculation I made within about 10 minutes along with three other calculations for different speeds.
(Do note I did not time myself, I don't know how long it took me to make the calculations)

This would mean a Vol Shark is still a usable rifle, plus it leaves space for them to make a better rifle in time. With a lower DPS than other gun's, yet with the ability to lay waste within one clip quickly (As noted by Reaps in PvP an AR would not lay waste, because AR's are easy to miss with, Take this into consideration before reply with more FPS gamer wanna be s***)



I was basing mine off current stats, exactly why I didn't mention a change in reload times. Only the damage was changed to attain those numbers.

NE's are an extremely poor PVP weapon, actually, because of the consistency required to make use of the DPS they provide. Not to mention the new AP pistols smoke them in DPS. Not that they were a bad weapon, just for how it felt for players and the fact of a single shot from a Fuzzy Bunny Pistol would be the same as hitting 2 NE shots... so they went with what was easier for them to work with.

Of course with .2 delay doing 53 damage of course it does more if clip isn't involved, because that's a factor in DPS just like reload times :o

I'm still going for it should go no higher than 190, and that's for an "augmentation" version. Since pistols still need their place at being "the top" on DPS.
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#96
violetnight666x

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I was basing mine off current stats, exactly why I didn't mention a change in reload times. Only the damage was changed to attain those numbers.

NE's are an extremely poor PVP weapon, actually, because of the consistency required to make use of the DPS they provide. Not to mention the new AP pistols smoke them in DPS. Not that they were a bad weapon, just for how it felt for players and the fact of a single shot from a Fuzzy Bunny Pistol would be the same as hitting 2 NE shots... so they went with what was easier for them to work with.

Of course with .2 delay doing 53 damage of course it does more if clip isn't involved, because that's a factor in DPS just like reload times :o

I'm still going for it should go no higher than 190, and that's for an "augmentation" version. Since pistols still need their place at being "the top" on DPS.


Considering how Vol shark is not an augmented gun, I would say 196.7 DPS is pretty fine...the fact that i see alot of PvP'ers with neverenders (Not bad one's iver) Suggests to me that it obviously is a fair PvP weapon. AR's are not a great PvP weapon iver, therefore this would make rifle's pretty balanced to how they are now in terms of PvP effectiveness. I am simply at the moment going for a suggestion based on the vol shark, they don't even have AP AR's yet, (Would be nice if they do get one in.) If we were to have faster AR's, what would you have done? Considering animation length of AR's rate of fire bullet damage so on so forth, if you disregard any effort it would take G1 to do (Let's face it they should put some bloody effort into this if they were to change it again or we just end up with another case of poorly balanced weapons still). How would you want assault rifle's?

#97
violetnight666x

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If I was to make stats for an AP assault rifle, id aim for somewhere around 195-200 DPS, It would still have lower DPS than AP pistols, but it would have a DPS competitive to them, while lower DPS overall, it would do more damage in a short burst. Which is the kinda gun I feel the rifle should be.

#98
Reaps989

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Considering how Vol shark is not an augmented gun, I would say 196.7 DPS is pretty fine...the fact that i see alot of PvP'ers with neverenders (Not bad one's iver) Suggests to me that it obviously is a fair PvP weapon. AR's are not a great PvP weapon iver, therefore this would make rifle's pretty balanced to how they are now in terms of PvP effectiveness. I am simply at the moment going for a suggestion based on the vol shark, they don't even have AP AR's yet, (Would be nice if they do get one in.) If we were to have faster AR's, what would you have done? Considering animation length of AR's rate of fire bullet damage so on so forth, if you disregard any effort it would take G1 to do (Let's face it they should put some bloody effort into this if they were to change it again or we just end up with another case of poorly balanced weapons still). How would you want assault rifle's?


Well the thing is you want room for an augmentation AR?

NE's are extremely rare now adays, especially past 2.6 revamp. Even in 1.9 they were a rare bread, outside of maybe a dozen... people had them but were hardly effective with them. There were maybe 5 good people with them, maybe 10 decent, and the rest not so much.

Like I said tho, you can "see" players with NE's... there's a handful who can use them effectively enough to be a threat.

And they did put thought into the last weapon changes, but AR's were kinda... threw at us at the last second on open testing so it was impossible to give feedback.

The numbers I used previously would be ideal if you wanted .2 or .3 tbh. It makes sure there's room for them to add an AP augmentation weapon for AR (which they should have to begin with...) or at least taken one of the existing ones to make it into the "AP Augmentation" version.

2.5 Reload
  • .3 delay, 68 damage, 2.5 reload, 50-55m range, and 40 clip : 191.54 DPS
  • .2 delay, 49 damage, 2.5 reload, 50-55m range, and 40 clip : 190.29 DPS

2.0 Reload
  • .3 delay, 65 damage, 2.0 reload, 50-55m range, and 40 clip : 189.78 DPS
  • .2 delay, 47 damage, 2.0 reload, 50-55m range, and 40 clip : 191.83 DPS


Something like that for the Vol Shark, but again to give an option for an Augmentation AR, most likely with the same stats... ya most likely. Since augmentation would give them 4 or 6 extra damage.
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#99
violetnight666x

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Well the thing is you want room for an augmentation AR?

NE's are extremely rare now adays, especially past 2.6 revamp. Even in 1.9 they were a rare bread, outside of maybe a dozen... people had them but were hardly effective with them. There were maybe 5 good people with them, maybe 10 decent, and the rest not so much.

Like I said tho, you can "see" players with NE's... there's a handful who can use them effectively enough to be a threat.

And they did put thought into the last weapon changes, but AR's were kinda... threw at us at the last second on open testing so it was impossible to give feedback.

The numbers I used previously would be ideal if you wanted .2 or .3 tbh. It makes sure there's room for them to add an AP augmentation weapon for AR (which they should have to begin with...) or at least taken one of the existing ones to make it into the "AP Augmentation" version.

2.5 Reload

  • .3 delay, 68 damage, 2.5 reload, 50-55m range, and 40 clip : 191.54 DPS
  • .2 delay, 49 damage, 2.5 reload, 50-55m range, and 40 clip : 190.29 DPS

2.0 Reload
  • .3 delay, 65 damage, 2.0 reload, 50-55m range, and 40 clip : 189.78 DPS
  • .2 delay, 47 damage, 2.0 reload, 50-55m range, and 40 clip : 191.83 DPS


Something like that for the Vol Shark, but again to give an option for an Augmentation AR, most likely with the same stats... ya most likely. Since augmentation would give them 4 or 6 extra damage.


I spose a vol shark would be more ideal a tad weaker, for an Augmented AR, base stats around what i mentioned with 53 0.2 delay at 3.0 reload and 196.7 DPS would probably be more ideal for augmented. Shark would probably be more ideal at 190ish.
So to that point you have a point.
I do however feel 2.5 reload is too quick, I tested earlier with me shark how long the reload animation is, I could start shooting literally as I put the clip in, my pistols however I cant shoot till the pistol has been cocked back (Then there is a very brief delay from there).
I feel if they made the AR's quicker, they should also make the reload longer, to bring out more potential for damage and to make the reload more realistic with the more realistic rate of fire.

#100
Reaps989

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I spose a vol shark would be more ideal a tad weaker, for an Augmented AR, base stats around what i mentioned with 53 0.2 delay at 3.0 reload and 196.7 DPS would probably be more ideal for augmented. Shark would probably be more ideal at 190ish.
So to that point you have a point.
I do however feel 2.5 reload is too quick, I tested earlier with me shark how long the reload animation is, I could start shooting literally as I put the clip in, my pistols however I cant shoot till the pistol has been cocked back (Then there is a very brief delay from there).
I feel if they made the AR's quicker, they should also make the reload longer, to bring out more potential for damage and to make the reload more realistic with the more realistic rate of fire.


Well the thing is with pistols they had their reload hit to avoid hurting damage/delay... sadly animation are tied to the weapon itself. So those are unavoidable, sadly. While some players might be upset with the reload hit and slightly longer delay, they would have been far more upset with damage/delay hits.

Plus, let's be honest... how many pistols can you dual wield and reload within 2.5 seconds without being peeped prior with a speed loader? Pistols needed "a" weakness, so reload was chosen.

The previous reload time, which was the one prior to the last change, was 2.5 actually.
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#101
violetnight666x

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Well the thing is with pistols they had their reload hit to avoid hurting damage/delay... sadly animation are tied to the weapon itself. So those are unavoidable, sadly. While some players might be upset with the reload hit and slightly longer delay, they would have been far more upset with damage/delay hits.

Plus, let's be honest... how many pistols can you dual wield and reload within 2.5 seconds without being peeped prior with a speed loader? Pistols needed "a" weakness, so reload was chosen.

The previous reload time, which was the one prior to the last change, was 2.5 actually.


....I feel thats kinda dumb, they should of kept the reload of pistol lower to boost overall DPS and kept assault rifle reloads higher to boost bursts of damage.

#102
SirSplatsalot

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It would be a better suggestion to make 4-5 new rapid fire ARs and SMGs imo. No reason to mess with all ARs already in game to introduce something new unless more people chip in on this thread.
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#103
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....I feel thats kinda dumb, they should of kept the reload of pistol lower to boost overall DPS and kept assault rifle reloads higher to boost bursts of damage.


Didn't do much to fix pistol-shottie style either.. But that's a whole other can of worms.
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#104
Reaps989

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....I feel thats kinda dumb, they should of kept the reload of pistol lower to boost overall DPS and kept assault rifle reloads higher to boost bursts of damage.


Pistol's DPS didn't change much for light/mediums, the aim actually was to effect heavy pistols... which worked quite well actually.

Also, reload is only a slight reduction to DPS. The reason it worked so well with pistols is because of the fact you have to consider the weapon's DPS is doubled.

A rifle with 3 second reload would only go up to 70 damage per shot and 4 second reload would go up to 75 damage per shot. Which is why it only worked so well with pistols, since the amount of DPS loss is doubled... but they didn't want to hurt lights/mediums in the process.
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#105
Reaps989

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It would be a better suggestion to make 4-5 new rapid fire ARs and SMGs imo. No reason to mess with all ARs already in game to introduce something new unless more people chip in on this thread.


Agreed, since it's not like the current ARs (except for maybe the 195) need tweaking.

Edit : To work on a PVE and PVP level without issues with functionality.

Didn't do much to fix pistol-shottie style either.. But that's a whole other can of worms.


Ya... charge shots... yay...

Edited by Reaps989, 03 May 2014 - 12:57 PM.

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#106
violetnight666x

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It would be a better suggestion to make 4-5 new rapid fire ARs and SMGs imo. No reason to mess with all ARs already in game to introduce something new unless more people chip in on this thread.


I would be pretty happy if they simply just added 4-5 0.2 AR's as you say.
It would bring me the AR I want, it would leave people who want their 0.4 AR's with 0.4 AR's. I wouldn't mind taking a moment to craft 0.2 delay AR's. (It would annoy me if they were all made DT/AP AR's though as it would take me ages to get one)

I would want a 0.2 delay'ed AR to have 3.0-3.5 reload to allow for more bullet damage at a slightly lower DPS. As would then be able to pack a fair punch per clip.

If G1 made 4-5 0.2 AR's and 4-5 0.1-0.2 SMG's I would happily accept that as a final outcome.

#107
violetnight666x

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If they were to bring out 4-5 AR's with 0.2 delay, I would personally say they should just bring out some kind of ballistics craft allowing you to convert current AR's for 0.2 delay versions.

That way they would be able to make them as separate guns under a simple crafting method, yet it would not cheat people who already have good AR's into having to recollect to get faster AR's, they would be able to make a quick and easy conversion.
So say with my Vol shark, I am suggesting they have a 15 second craft (Like making scrap gears salvaged gears) Which would require me to have a Vol Shark only, to use that to craft it into a fast version. I wouldn't suggest they do this with all AR's as that would be more effort, but if they did this for a level 20 AR,a level 30, a level 40, level 50 and vol shark. Then I think that would break up a fair spread of faster AR's.

#108
Dauthaz

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For some unexplainable reason, as mentioned earlier, I have found this thread rather interesting. However it has de-evolved into a number crunching, personal opinion, restroom lawyer, "I want this for me" e-peen contest. Some folks enjoy this particular aspect of gaming. That is, tearing down the numbers and learning the actual particulars of a given games mechanics. Not my thing, but if that is what turns your crank... go for it. Providing others with statistical data is never a bad thing for most gaming forums. This particular thread however for practical purposes falls into the all inclusive category of TLDR for most FE players IMO.

With that being said, I like light rifles just as they are. Especially my Volatile Shark. Assault Rifles sucked before their last change. They were however the best DPS a rifle user had. And when fighting melee (pvp or pve) they along with shotguns, aside from a couple of rare exceptions, offered the least penalty. And on an unrelated but earlier mentioned topic in this thread, the rifle melee penalty IMO is bogus. I don't like it, but it is part of FE game mechanics so I live with it.

Too many people expect games to conform so as to fit what they want. Have a suggestion? Great, that is what this section of the forums is for. Suggest what you would like and hope (good luck with that BTW) that the developers will oblige you. But to say that another, and probably untested, change be implemented because you want to play FE a certain way is a bit of a reach IMO.

To the Developers, if it isn't broke don't screw with it. Are light rifles working as intended? Do they fit within the game mechanics we currently have? Are the majority of players happy with them as is? If the answer to those three questions is "yes", leave it alone. If not, find what is broken and or ask the players what they want.

In nearly six pages of comment in this thread there are two for change, one for as is and one debating the viability of the proposed change. That's it. I would admittedly be curious to see what others think. So in the hopes of possibly getting actual player base opinions may I suggest that we pose a simple question to them.

Would you like to see the assault rifles rate of fire sped up with less damage per shot but obtaining similar DPS? Or are you happy with them as is? It's that simple.

Again, I would vote for the "as is" column. Reason being, G1 does not have the greatest track record of implementing change. And I can not get on the "it's not like that in real life" band wagon. In addition I have found no flaws with ARs and my play style. They seem to work just fine as is for me.

#109
SirSplatsalot

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Adding a few new weapons would allow you to use your weapons as they are today. No harm done, more players get guns they like, within guidelines of todays ranged weapons (dps etc) but high rate of fire.

So I'd rather ask if more players would like rapid fire ARs for different levels. My two cents.

And it would be fun to have as an option I think.
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#110
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editted for length

My 2 cents on rifles/light rifles:

PVE - Anything can work in PVE unless it's a timed fight. DPS weapons of every class work best in pve due to it being general tank and spank with predictable movement(unless something is glitchy for you). Burst like shotguns don't work unless for leashing(snipers) due to their large health pools vs players. BRs could prob use a bit of dmg tweaking, lights seem like they are in a decent place, snipers are fine and shotguns are in a decent place(albeit imo could use more variety like at 150/165...i like me some light shotties). Could a variant of lights be interesting...sure...a priority? I'd say no, but could be something interesting for the near future.

PVP - This is where it falls off and is situational a lot more. Snipers due to mechanics can work close/far but close requires a bit more skill than shotties but has a bit of a higher return...are fine. BRs are still in a weird place especially with the new BR...due to slots it seems these will always be left out unless someone is confident and reliable in close range and even then it would probably be so so...could use some dmg love...and should be kept at 66m max...195 one is currently silly(brs are good but due to how back slots are and most players are...not many would carry these around to swap out or would swap out during the fight). Lights are fine tbh, and the change probably helped them a lot in this but again reliability is still king and due to where the average skill is these probably won't be used still even though they are fairly decent...lights are fine no change needed for pvp. Shotguns are still king for pvp due to ease of use...most people in FE are typically meh or bad with pistol/rifles due to the deceptive crosshair so in turn they use the shotgun which has the same reticle of melee, and currently very similar damage with the downside of a reload and slightly higher delay but with far less usability issues melee can suffer. Variant of lights would never be used in pvp cept for a laugh.

Both - -melee def is redundant nowadays and does nothing. It meant something previously when dodge was amazing(3 years+ ago) and people would/could stack weapon skill and/or dodge to influence and cater to their style...now is merely a remnant of the old rpg systems that is redundant should be removed. All it does currently is penalize passive investment into dodge which is a meh passive for no particular reason. Should of been axed with 1.9...this shouldn't still be a thing, especially as people still see it as an actual influence and hurts the view of rifles when in reality it has little actual influence.

Light rifle variant - Would be a 'neat' alternative but wouldn't ever fill a role without being redundant akin to smgs. Could be an interesting little addition down the road depending on difficulty to add it but personally don't see it as something that is a large priority.

Edited by AgentNoir, 04 May 2014 - 08:12 PM.

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#111
LilRedhare

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I personally would love to see a faster AR, if only to appease the PvE crowd. There have been many good arguments posted here, for and against, and I don't think I can add anything new; A faster AR WOULD have to have lower damage for play balance, making it practically useless for PvP...but not everything has to be geared for PvP. We already know certain weapons range from inefficient to pretty much useless in PvP (SMGs anyone?), but these same weapons score big in PvE. So why not a faster AR more suited to high dps and PvE? It could be new content, a dome weapon or a recipe found in the Outpost. Maybe a new skin to boot? A "new-look" weapon that is different from the same models we see all the time? I have to admit, I get tired of not being able to tell my volatile Rangemaster prime from my Z.I. Custom unless I dye them differently. Just a thought....I find the arguments in this thread compelling and Nysek breaks down the reasons against (and for, too, actually) rather well, but I really think a new, faster AR would be well-received by the FE population.

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#112
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I find the arguments in this thread compelling and Nysek breaks down the reasons against (and for, too, actually) rather well.


Well I have to make sure to give reason why something "can", "can't", or what would be required to make it work with the current system. I was never exactly "against" outside of it dropping possible PVP viability in some cases, yet it would be like pistols in that regard of aim.

AR's even with low damage per shot can do quite well, with high enough accuracy. So where 2h melee and shotgun have a lower "skill cap", ARs/Pistols/BRs have far higher possibilities when it comes to maximizing potential. So even if damage per shot was quite a bit lower at 50s, as long as DPS wasn't as disturbingly low like it was prior (160ish) it still has viability.

People forget I don't just break ideas, systems, or otherwise down without trying to resolve a concern. So people might think I'm extremely bias, even if I keep it extremely neutral.

When making suggestions players have to remember to give factual data to support claims, otherwise it's rather tough when the community isn't exactly vocal or thinks "The devs don't listen". Yes, they can be frustrating at times... but at the same time we are probably quite frustrating to them (myself included <3) equally. So when wanting to make a change, one must evaluate the entire system and come to the best possible solution (at least in their mind) without harming other aspects of gameplay.

Just as I always bring up "I can't calculate player error", but I always welcome a debate on any idea as long as they have a valid argument. :D
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#113
violetnight666x

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Just out of curiosity, how often do these topics get looked at by G1?

#114
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Just out of curiosity, how often do these topics get looked at by G1?


I know for a fact they look over active topics every so often, as for the exact amount this is unknown.

If it's a large concern by the community, I've pointed it out for them many times in hopes to resolve an issue. But they are fairly active on reading the forums when they can be.

I do wish they'd respond to larger concerns more, that's about it xD
Nysek - Mednaught : The only character in FE made of Gammina™

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#115
Captain Stabulous

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It would be nice for them to look into this. I'm pretty sure new weapons haven't been implemented really in any way since the G.O.R.E weapons. Would be interesting to see some new ones on the table.

#116
deJ

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ooh thats a gud 1

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#117
LilRedhare

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If they were to bring out 4-5 AR's with 0.2 delay, I would personally say they should just bring out some kind of ballistics craft allowing you to convert current AR's for 0.2 delay versions.

That way they would be able to make them as separate guns under a simple crafting method, yet it would not cheat people who already have good AR's into having to recollect to get faster AR's, they would be able to make a quick and easy conversion.
So say with my Vol shark, I am suggesting they have a 15 second craft (Like making scrap gears salvaged gears) Which would require me to have a Vol Shark only, to use that to craft it into a fast version. I wouldn't suggest they do this with all AR's as that would be more effort, but if they did this for a level 20 AR,a level 30, a level 40, level 50 and vol shark. Then I think that would break up a fair spread of faster AR's.


The recipe book already allows for modification of the GA-8 Mk II pistol and the Rangemaster rifle...why not add a mod recipe for the .357 SOCOM or some other higher level AR? Why stop at just 2 weapons? The performance of both the above weapons is varied significantly because of the mods, and the difference between mods is quite noticeable. So why not, devs? This is a quick, easy way to introduce a faster AR without having to create from the floor up.

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#118
Fantastik/Jazzmatic

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#119
Reaps989

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Haha as fun as that would be I don't even know how to hell it would be balanced unless it snared the user :P
Nysek - Mednaught : The only character in FE made of Gammina™

Walls are for horses, I build gosh darning castles of logic to protect us from your constant rain of derp.

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Special thanks to Thrillchase for ze banner.

#120
LilRedhare

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Gawd, I would LOVE to see those in play! Flamethrowers as well!

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Kit Southworth, Kitness Everdeen, Ophanim-Dying Light



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