Jump to content

Photo

Faster assault rifle's /smg's


  • Please log in to reply
129 replies to this topic

#41
violetnight666x

violetnight666x

    Conscript

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 120 posts
  • Joined 15-February 13

No it's not, just making sure people know "if" it was lowered in delay they'd have to lower the damage... I don't believe "burst" works as some people are hoping tho tbh.


When assault rifles were at 0.3 delay, if you think how the old DPS was (Round bout 180-190 ish). They actually had more DPS within one clip. By the delay being longer yes it has higher DPS, but that's only because its being spread across the clip to last longer. In the typical PvE encounter, you do not need 40 bullets to take down on enemy with the current 0.4 delay. In PvP sure you'll probably need a couple clips befor you kill someone when you miss enough shots. But the delay at 0.4 hinders PvE a fair bit even against bosses, if i'm not using a full clip before i reload and heal, that's a hinderance. While on 0.3 it would of got through to the end of the clip, or just before the end of the clip before i want to heal.
Currently it takes 16 seconds to run the clip dry. Staunch wounds takes 6 seconds to cool down. 0.3 would take 12 seconds. 0.2 would take 8 seconds.
Must confess id not considered the exact times till just now (I've literally just got a calculator in front of me and worked it out).
If people really want an effective AR. 0.2 delay would make it much more effective for a support build (Since First Aid is usable while reloading, empathics are usable while shooting).
Which would put rifles back ahead for supporting, and pistols ahead for pure DPS.

Edited by violetnight666x, 30 April 2014 - 01:26 AM.


#42
Reaps989

Reaps989

    Supreme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7725 posts
  • Joined 18-May 12

When assault rifles were at 0.3 delay, if you think how the old DPS was (Round bout 180-190 ish). They actually had more DPS within one clip. By the delay being longer yes it has higher DPS, but that's only because its being spread across the clip to last longer. In the typical PvE encounter, you do not need 40 bullets to take down on enemy with the current 0.4 delay. In PvP sure you'll probably need a couple clips befor you kill someone when you miss enough shots. But the delay at 0.4 hinders PvE a fair bit even against bosses, if i'm not using a full clip before i reload and heal, that's a hinderance. While on 0.3 it would of got through to the end of the clip, or just before the end of the clip before i want to heal.
Currently it takes 16 seconds to run the clip dry. Staunch wounds takes 6 seconds to cool down. 0.3 would take 12 seconds. 0.2 would take 8 seconds.
Must confess id not considered the exact times till just now (I've literally just got a calculator in front of me and worked it out).
If people really want an effective AR. 0.2 delay would make it much more effective for a support build (Since First Aid is usable while reloading, empathics are usable while shooting).
Which would put rifles back ahead for supporting, and pistols ahead for pure DPS.


Old DPS was slightly above 160 (164 if I am not mistaken)... which is much lower than the current. As for DPS in a clip, that is quite incorrect unless you were speaking of "damage per clip" which is completely different from DPS in the time frame of a clip.

In a typical PVP situation, if you fired 40 shots at 90 damage per shot, you'd come out to a total of 3600 possible damage prior to resists. If we factor resists in PVP are at least 40% it becomes 2160. This is before armor cuts, power, and critical hits. The average target also only has 800 to 1k HP, maybe slightly higher.

Since we aren't factoring armor cuts, critical hits, charge shots, or power's passive penetration we can at least give the option of you might have 50% accuracy. It takes 15.6 (First shot doesn't get delay) seconds to unload an entire clip, so truthfully it takes only 7.6 (First shot does not get delay) seconds to kill said target. If we wish to factor heals, a charge shot or two can counter those quite easily, and thus we are back to 7.6 (First shot does not get delay) seconds of TTK "maximum".

As for the delays, yes I already knew this. However, AR's are not ideal for "support". You actually look for weapons with longer delay for supportive characters, as it gives room to heal between shots for yourself an allies. You don't exactly "have" to reload to heal, the only two heals in-game that is blocked by offensive action is staunch and patch.

This is becoming a merry-go-round now, I will state it again : If AR's delay was changed, the damage would have to be reduced as an offset. And the idea of making it "burst" may not play out as one might think. If you've seen weapons with "Rate of Fire" 2+ then you'd know they tend to fire all shots at once, not in quick/rapid/whatever succession.

The higher damage with longer delay allowed it to pump it's DPS and viability in a PVP setting, as damage prior was to low (and DPS was depressing at 160+) to be viable outside of PvDoor or PVE. While it wasn't the "ideal" choice, it was a shot in the dark to give it a boost. So if it went back to .3 (or lower) the damage would have to drop, extremely, and it is quite possible it would go back to "PVE-only" or "PvDoor" status.

And, as stated before, charge shots still need to be addressed before playing around with weapons again.

Edit : Simple mistake, fixed.

Edited by Reaps989, 01 May 2014 - 01:21 AM.

Nysek - Mednaught : The only character in FE made of Gammina™

Walls are for horses, I build gosh darning castles of logic to protect us from your constant rain of derp.

Posted Image

Special thanks to Thrillchase for ze banner.

#43
violetnight666x

violetnight666x

    Conscript

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 120 posts
  • Joined 15-February 13

Old DPS was slightly above 160 (164 if I am not mistaken)... which is much lower than the current. As for DPS in a clip, that is quite incorrect unless you were speaking of "damage per clip" which is completely different from DPS in the time frame of a clip.

In a typical PVP situation, if you fired 40 shots at 90 damage per shot, you'd come out to a total of 3600 possible damage prior to resists. If we factor resists in PVP are at least 40% it becomes 2160. This is before armor cuts, power, and critical hits. The average target also only has 800 to 1k HP, maybe slightly higher.

Since we aren't factoring armor cuts, critical hits, charge shots, or power's passive penetration we can at least give the option of you might have 50% accuracy. It takes 16 seconds to unload an entire clip, so truthfully it takes only 8 seconds to kill said target. If we wish to factor heals, a charge shot or two can counter those quite easily, and thus we are back to 8 seconds of TTK "maximum".

As for the delays, yes I already knew this. However, AR's are not ideal for "support". You actually look for weapons with longer delay for supportive characters, as it gives room to heal between shots for yourself an allies. You don't exactly "have" to reload to heal, the only two heals in-game that is blocked by offensive action is staunch and patch.

This is becoming a merry-go-round now, I will state it again : If AR's delay was changed, the damage would have to be reduced as an offset. And the idea of making it "burst" may not play out as one might think. If you've seen weapons with "Rate of Fire" 2+ then you'd know they tend to fire all shots at once, not in quick/rapid/whatever succession.

The higher damage with longer delay allowed it to pump it's DPS and viability in a PVP setting, as damage prior was to low (and DPS was depressing at 160+) to be viable outside of PvDoor or PVE. While it wasn't the "ideal" choice, it was a shot in the dark to give it a boost. So if it went back to .3 (or lower) the damage would have to drop, extremely, and it is quite possible it would go back to "PVE-only" or "PvDoor" status.

And, as stated before, charge shots still need to be addressed before playing around with weapons again.


Guess my memory is worse than i thoughht, i cant remember the DPS being 160 odd lol. Id still prefer that mind to the current. I edit this reply alittle soon, once the rave music stops in the background. Ill be able to think more ><

Edited by violetnight666x, 30 April 2014 - 03:10 AM.


#44
violetnight666x

violetnight666x

    Conscript

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 120 posts
  • Joined 15-February 13
Would it be impossible for them to have some kind of right click option on AR's like they do on some clothing(Where they can have visor up/down, hood up/down so on) to have 0.2 delay full auto with less bullet damage, or 0.4 semi auto fire with the current bullet damage.....would that be too hard to ask for? would solve the issue without ruining the balancing between a DPS and support gun. (PvP or PvE gun in many cases)

#45
Reaps989

Reaps989

    Supreme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7725 posts
  • Joined 18-May 12

Would it be impossible for them to have some kind of right click option on AR's like they do on some clothing(Where they can have visor up/down, hood up/down so on) to have 0.2 delay full auto with less bullet damage, or 0.4 semi auto fire with the current bullet damage.....would that be too hard to ask for? would solve the issue without ruining the balancing between a DPS and support gun. (PvP or PvE gun in many cases)


... As a secondary firing option? I'd like to say "maybe", but then they'd have to resolve the scope issue (granted, there's a keybind for using a scope) along with "if" they can do that.

As for the burst firing method (3 round burst for example) I am unsure it will work as you'd like, tbh.

Sadly it will most likely come down to a sacrifice somewhere, the question is "where" if it came down to it. Let alone if there is enough demand to go that route.
Nysek - Mednaught : The only character in FE made of Gammina™

Walls are for horses, I build gosh darning castles of logic to protect us from your constant rain of derp.

Posted Image

Special thanks to Thrillchase for ze banner.

#46
Reaps989

Reaps989

    Supreme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7725 posts
  • Joined 18-May 12

Would it be impossible for them to have some kind of right click option on AR's like they do on some clothing(Where they can have visor up/down, hood up/down so on) to have 0.2 delay full auto with less bullet damage, or 0.4 semi auto fire with the current bullet damage.....would that be too hard to ask for? would solve the issue without ruining the balancing between a DPS and support gun. (PvP or PvE gun in many cases)


... As a secondary firing option? I'd like to say "maybe", but then they'd have to resolve the scope issue (granted, there's a keybind for using a scope) along with "if" they can do that.

As for the burst firing method (3 round burst for example) I am unsure it will work as you'd like, tbh.

Sadly it will most likely come down to a sacrifice somewhere, the question is "where" if it came down to it. Let alone if there is enough demand to go that route.
Nysek - Mednaught : The only character in FE made of Gammina™

Walls are for horses, I build gosh darning castles of logic to protect us from your constant rain of derp.

Posted Image

Special thanks to Thrillchase for ze banner.

#47
violetnight666x

violetnight666x

    Conscript

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 120 posts
  • Joined 15-February 13

... As a secondary firing option? I'd like to say "maybe", but then they'd have to resolve the scope issue (granted, there's a keybind for using a scope) along with "if" they can do that.

As for the burst firing method (3 round burst for example) I am unsure it will work as you'd like, tbh.

Sadly it will most likely come down to a sacrifice somewhere, the question is "where" if it came down to it. Let alone if there is enough demand to go that route.


You do realize i never actually mentioned give AR's Burst fire right? I may of said a faster rate of fire would demand at range that you control the shots abit more, and i did mention a 3 burst firing effect like neverenders have, but at no point did i actually say, they should have a 3 burst system inplace. Only the shooting effect and sound.

and if having options on clothes for hood up hood down would work i dont see how having full auto/semi auto wouldnt work, All it would require is for them to add the script in for the option to work and to have the stats for both firing systems right? Or is there some kinda special s*** that I don't understand involved too?

Edited by violetnight666x, 30 April 2014 - 04:32 AM.


#48
Reaps989

Reaps989

    Supreme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7725 posts
  • Joined 18-May 12

You do realize i never actually mentioned give AR's Burst fire right? I may of said a faster rate of fire would demand at range that you control the shots abit more, and i did mention a 3 burst firing effect like neverenders have, but at no point did i actually say, they should have a 3 burst system inplace. Only the shooting effect and sound.

and if having options on clothes for hood up hood down would work i dont see how having full auto/semi auto wouldnt work, All it would require is for them to add the script in for the option to work and to have the stats for both firing systems right? Or is there some kinda special s*** that I don't understand involved too?


Clothes have models which can adjust, weapons have set stats that are determined by a database (like any game) So I can't say "yes" or "no" to it working or not.

Unlike an FPS it isn't common to have a method to "switch firing mode", let alone how it checks which firing mode the weapon is in.

It's one thing for "hood up/down", it's another for completely different weapon values such as damage/delay. Especially since that would mean it would require two sets of stats, able to make sure those stats stay separated, and of course not be exploited in some manner.

But that's speaking from a scripting standpoint, sadly I have not had the pleasure of seeing the "monster" FE's database is. So I have to go based off standard MMO databases, or MMO emulation databases, to give an example. Which you'd be surprised how very alike the two are when puts next to one another.
Nysek - Mednaught : The only character in FE made of Gammina™

Walls are for horses, I build gosh darning castles of logic to protect us from your constant rain of derp.

Posted Image

Special thanks to Thrillchase for ze banner.

#49
violetnight666x

violetnight666x

    Conscript

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 120 posts
  • Joined 15-February 13

Clothes have models which can adjust, weapons have set stats that are determined by a database (like any game) So I can't say "yes" or "no" to it working or not.

Unlike an FPS it isn't common to have a method to "switch firing mode", let alone how it checks which firing mode the weapon is in.

It's one thing for "hood up/down", it's another for completely different weapon values such as damage/delay. Especially since that would mean it would require two sets of stats, able to make sure those stats stay separated, and of course not be exploited in some manner.

But that's speaking from a scripting standpoint, sadly I have not had the pleasure of seeing the "monster" FE's database is. So I have to go based off standard MMO databases, or MMO emulation databases, to give an example. Which you'd be surprised how very alike the two are when puts next to one another.


I'm trying my best not to compare this to FPS games. I don't see how there would be a problem implementing auto and semi auto fire, but same time, I have not seen how FE's scripting works (or any other mmo's scripting at that) I can only assume it would be basic (Which is why i never suggested hot keys for changing firing mode) A right click on the gun itself in the gear is the most basic way i could imagine it. sorry if this has looped back on what you said.

#50
Captain Stabulous

Captain Stabulous

    Initiate

  • Members
  • 8 posts
  • Joined 26-April 14
I feel like it's safe to say they could add fire modes with some work, it's just the matter of that they're not going to. I mean sure, if they saw this thread and got the drive to add some new things after Outpost still, then sure, but the prospect is unlikely. Still, this is why there's a suggestions thread, and I think that if they should implement anything massive, it'd be cool to see something like this idea, even if it's just a little test drive, you know? And maybe put in a tommy gun model ;)

#51
violetnight666x

violetnight666x

    Conscript

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 120 posts
  • Joined 15-February 13

I feel like it's safe to say they could add fire modes with some work, it's just the matter of that they're not going to. I mean sure, if they saw this thread and got the drive to add some new things after Outpost still, then sure, but the prospect is unlikely. Still, this is why there's a suggestions thread, and I think that if they should implement anything massive, it'd be cool to see something like this idea, even if it's just a little test drive, you know? And maybe put in a tommy gun model ;)


Ohhh Tommy gun, gosh darn you know the way into a girls heart <3
lol

Must agree if they are going to work on stuff to improve the game with the outpost update, something like two fire mode's for AR's/SMG's would be a nice little thing to have. It would change gameplay a fair ammount while using AR's with something so simple (Maybe not quite as simple to put in but simple concept regardless) It would help people in PvP aswell as PvE. Which is something I think would be nice.

Edited by violetnight666x, 30 April 2014 - 09:09 AM.


#52
Captain Stabulous

Captain Stabulous

    Initiate

  • Members
  • 8 posts
  • Joined 26-April 14

Ohhh Tommy gun, gosh darn you know the way into a girls heart <3
lol

Must agree if they are going to work on stuff to improve the game with the outpost update, something like two fire mode's for AR's/SMG's would be a nice little thing to have. It would change gameplay a fair ammount while using AR's with something so simple (Maybe not quite as simple to put in but simple concept regardless) It would help people in PvP aswell as PvE. Which is something I think would be nice.


A hybrid PvP/PvE weapon with decent stats for both side of the spectrum would be incredible. Would be nice for a jack-of-all-trades player.

#53
Reaps989

Reaps989

    Supreme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7725 posts
  • Joined 18-May 12

I'm trying my best not to compare this to FPS games. I don't see how there would be a problem implementing auto and semi auto fire, but same time, I have not seen how FE's scripting works (or any other mmo's scripting at that) I can only assume it would be basic (Which is why i never suggested hot keys for changing firing mode) A right click on the gun itself in the gear is the most basic way i could imagine it. sorry if this has looped back on what you said.


It's all good, and I was speaking of the fact secondary fire tends to be bound to using a scope or equipped mutation. So it's a "fun" matter indeed. And sadly when it comes to MMOs, "basic" is generally only a term for simple changes like editing base values. If there was another weapon already sporting it, it would be another story indeed.
Nysek - Mednaught : The only character in FE made of Gammina™

Walls are for horses, I build gosh darning castles of logic to protect us from your constant rain of derp.

Posted Image

Special thanks to Thrillchase for ze banner.

#54
Reaps989

Reaps989

    Supreme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7725 posts
  • Joined 18-May 12

I feel like it's safe to say they could add fire modes with some work, it's just the matter of that they're not going to. I mean sure, if they saw this thread and got the drive to add some new things after Outpost still, then sure, but the prospect is unlikely. Still, this is why there's a suggestions thread, and I think that if they should implement anything massive, it'd be cool to see something like this idea, even if it's just a little test drive, you know? And maybe put in a tommy gun model ;)


I'd say "if" they could :( since on paper it sounds easy while in code it can be a nightmare, especially since it can have other issues.

If it wasn't for the fact you have equipped mutations automatically go into secondary fire (right click), then it might be more reasonable. Or the fact it has to make sure the values are always checked between the two firing modes.

In FPS games, generally the stats don't "change" like we think... it's like a minor buffer/debuffer. It has a simple check of "Is ____ attached, if so reduce x/y/z". Yet that's because most of said data is already clientside instead of serverside. FE, sadly, is almost completely serverside.
Nysek - Mednaught : The only character in FE made of Gammina™

Walls are for horses, I build gosh darning castles of logic to protect us from your constant rain of derp.

Posted Image

Special thanks to Thrillchase for ze banner.

#55
violetnight666x

violetnight666x

    Conscript

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 120 posts
  • Joined 15-February 13

I'd say "if" they could :( since on paper it sounds easy while in code it can be a nightmare, especially since it can have other issues.

If it wasn't for the fact you have equipped mutations automatically go into secondary fire (right click), then it might be more reasonable. Or the fact it has to make sure the values are always checked between the two firing modes.

In FPS games, generally the stats don't "change" like we think... it's like a minor buffer/debuffer. It has a simple check of "Is ____ attached, if so reduce x/y/z". Yet that's because most of said data is already clientside instead of serverside. FE, sadly, is almost completely serverside.


Why would the right click firing/scope effect it? I've been meaning right clicking the gun itself in gear, like how you right click clothing in the gear/wardrobe for the options, and how when you right click a gun for options to repair and all. To have firing mode within that drop down menu. Sorry if i miss read ya previous comment, but it looks almost as if you imagined me when i said right click, meaning in place of the scope/mutations. Which it wouldn't effect at all, I meant in the drop down menu with repair, restore fatigue and all that, same place as clothing options are in.

#56
Reaps989

Reaps989

    Supreme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7725 posts
  • Joined 18-May 12

Why would the right click firing/scope effect it? I've been meaning right clicking the gun itself in gear, like how you right click clothing in the gear/wardrobe for the options, and how when you right click a gun for options to repair and all. To have firing mode within that drop down menu. Sorry if i miss read ya previous comment, but it looks almost as if you imagined me when i said right click, meaning in place of the scope/mutations. Which it wouldn't effect at all, I meant in the drop down menu with repair, restore fatigue and all that, same place as clothing options are in.


If you mean that method, it would have to set the new values completely. The reason it works with vanity because it's a model, not combat values. So I can't comment on that method, or if it would stick properly or not.
Nysek - Mednaught : The only character in FE made of Gammina™

Walls are for horses, I build gosh darning castles of logic to protect us from your constant rain of derp.

Posted Image

Special thanks to Thrillchase for ze banner.

#57
Lumic

Lumic

    Initiate

  • Members
  • 21 posts
  • Joined 16-March 12
I'd really like to have a faster rifle. Even if it was just a fun gun like the Hornet. And that a fast gun like this is in game, proves it works. IMO they dont need to update the existing ones, they are fine and do their job quite well. Just adding an AP AR and a fun 0.1-.2 one would be good enough I think.

On the "different modes" topic: would be cool. It might be too much work to put it on right click as others mentioned because of the mutation/dual wield stuff, besides I dont want to give up my scope. But to make it as a hotkey/keybind..could work.

The stuff below might be completly stupid but if I had to code a game item I'd do it like described below so... *crossfingers*

There must be,see above, some class which all weapons inherit from. One that says a weapon has dmg, range,attack speed aso, the basic stats that every weapon in the game uses. Probably a subcatagory for melee and ranged which adds reload time, number of bullets ....but for fun lets put it in the basic weapon one. That way it might even allow for normal swing like melee hits or faster poking.
And if there is such a baseWeapon class you could, in theory, add a hasAltMode, changeMode, some other stuff, and if there arent already, setters and getters (maybe a modifyValues?).
Now, if you press the hotkey send to server a "change the mode" which more or less does an if activeWeapon.hasAltMode( false by default so you can activate it on only some weapons) then changeMode which sets/modfies the values to/by some altDmgValue and altSpdValue. If that succeeds send an update to the client which shows/activates the new stats. Still in theory, the server should, if it has a good day and Hammy is fed, just use the new values as if they were the normal, unchangable values we have now. Maybe add a cooldown to the switching button that you have to wait some seconds after your last shot until you can switch the mode. Otherwise I'd spam the button just to see who gives up first, the server or the button.
Might be a tiny bit more to do for the server but the Devs are pros and would solve the problem(s) in no time ;)

Edited by Lumic, 30 April 2014 - 03:44 PM.


#58
violetnight666x

violetnight666x

    Conscript

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 120 posts
  • Joined 15-February 13

If you mean that method, it would have to set the new values completely. The reason it works with vanity because it's a model, not combat values. So I can't comment on that method, or if it would stick properly or not.


Yes I am aware they would need to set new values, that is the point of it, they set a second set of values for the guns (Which would take probably as long as changing values of the same guns), then they implement a simple drop down order to allow you to switch between the semi auto fire (Which would be the values they have now) to a fully auto value (being what the newer faster rate of fire values would be). Im not suggesting that there is a hotkey, im simply suggesting it runs off the drop down menu, to allow you to switch value sets for the gun, so you have semi auto or fully auto.

#59
violetnight666x

violetnight666x

    Conscript

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 120 posts
  • Joined 15-February 13

I'd really like to have a faster rifle. Even if it was just a fun gun like the Hornet. And that a fast gun like this is in game, proves it works. IMO they dont need to update the existing ones, they are fine and do their job quite well. Just adding an AP AR and a fun 0.1-.2 one would be good enough I think.

On the "different modes" topic: would be cool. It might be too much work to put it on right click as others mentioned because of the mutation/dual wield stuff, besides I dont want to give up my scope. But to make it as a hotkey/keybind..could work.

The stuff below might be completly stupid but if I had to code a game item I'd do it like described below so... *crossfingers*

There must be,see above, some class which all weapons inherit from. One that says a weapon has dmg, range,attack speed aso, the basic stats that every weapon in the game uses. Probably a subcatagory for melee and ranged which adds reload time, number of bullets ....but for fun lets put it in the basic weapon one. That way it might even allow for normal swing like melee hits or faster poking.
And if there is such a baseWeapon class you could, in theory, add a hasAltMode, changeMode, some other stuff, and if there arent already, setters and getters (maybe a modifyValues?).
Now, if you press the hotkey send to server a "change the mode" which more or less does an if activeWeapon.hasAltMode( false by default so you can activate it on only some weapons) then changeMode which sets/modfies the values to/by some altDmgValue and altSpdValue. If that succeeds send an update to the client which shows/activates the new stats. Still in theory, the server should, if it has a good day and Hammy is fed, just use the new values as if they were the normal, unchangable values we have now. Maybe add a cooldown to the switching button that you have to wait some seconds after your last shot until you can switch the mode. Otherwise I'd spam the button just to see who gives up first, the server or the button.
Might be a tiny bit more to do for the server but the Devs are pros and would solve the problem(s) in no time ;)


And it would have nothing to do with the scope mutations or duel wield, like id said above your comment, i'm suggesting its on drop down command, not on hotkey. To have it on hotkey would be alot more complicated and there wouldn't be much point of it when there is simpler ways more friendly to their scripting. It would require alittle work to add in, but I don't see any reason why it would conflict with any scripts on an inexperienced point of view. Having it on hotkey would allow people to exploit it very easily, while people having to go ontop drop-down menu would not only be friendly on the script (In comparison) but it would also stop people being able to spam changing modes so often. I come up with the idea more to be friendly between PvP and PvE scenario's where you know whats going to happen.

#60
Dauthaz

Dauthaz

    Grunt

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 82 posts
  • Joined 31-August 11
While it won't help with current game mechanics regarding ROF, there are a couple weapons that still retain the ROF this thread is discussing. They are not end game items or capable of doing any viable damage past S2 but they may fill the "void" for those who RP. The Biohazard Rifle, assault rifle, still has a .3 delay. And the GA 77, mission reward sub-machinegun, has a .2 delay. If memory serves, the Redstone 8 (assault rifle and mission reward) still carries the .3 delay as well. Of the three, and I am sure there are more if one were to dig around, the Redstone 8 would be the most viable. Not sure this helps, but an interesting thread nonetheless.

#61
Reaps989

Reaps989

    Supreme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7725 posts
  • Joined 18-May 12

There must be,see above, some class which all weapons inherit from. One that says a weapon has dmg, range,attack speed aso, the basic stats that every weapon in the game uses. Probably a subcatagory for melee and ranged which adds reload time, number of bullets ....but for fun lets put it in the basic weapon one. That way it might even allow for normal swing like melee hits or faster poking.
And if there is such a baseWeapon class you could, in theory, add a hasAltMode, changeMode, some other stuff, and if there arent already, setters and getters (maybe a modifyValues?).
Now, if you press the hotkey send to server a "change the mode" which more or less does an if activeWeapon.hasAltMode( false by default so you can activate it on only some weapons) then changeMode which sets/modfies the values to/by some altDmgValue and altSpdValue. If that succeeds send an update to the client which shows/activates the new stats. Still in theory, the server should, if it has a good day and Hammy is fed, just use the new values as if they were the normal, unchangable values we have now. Maybe add a cooldown to the switching button that you have to wait some seconds after your last shot until you can switch the mode. Otherwise I'd spam the button just to see who gives up first, the server or the button.
Might be a tiny bit more to do for the server but the Devs are pros and would solve the problem(s) in no time ;)


General in an item database you'd have a string of values, mostly numerical, but obviously translate into the overall intended function.

ID, Name, Type (weapon/armor/consumable/etc), EquipID (Where it can be equipped/stored), and further values from there (damage/delay/reload/clip/range/dyeable/etc). After that you'd have possible functions, which would either be enabled or disabled for certain items. Be it if can be traded, sold, etc.

And yes, as I said if it can work properly you could apply what you stated... in theory. It's when it's put into practice and if it has no exploitation/bugs. Also, the server/client have to communicate constantly... there's a reason during lag you can't even reload. :(

But yes, in theory it is possible. The question is "why" and "is it needed' compared to other tasks. If enough players just wanted faster RoF, then it would be faster to just increase RoF while balancing it accordingly. Rather than working on a method to change a weapon's stats, yet it would only benefit rifles? It would be different if they were looking to put in a system for "attachments" for weapons.

Edit : This does not mean I'd push an a system with "attachments" or "modifiers" in terms of silencers and such. It would take a decent sum of time along with quite a bit of testing... plus melee can't exactly get anything so it kinda defeats the purpose of making sure all weapons have their perks/weaknesses.

Edit 2 : The easiest options with quick and efficient results...

  • AR options for lower delay but obviously less damage per shot.
  • Change all ARs to low delay as they were before (.3) with obviously reduced damage.
  • Leave it alone : If it didn't have enough backing, not saying it should be left alone.

At the same time, I still stand behind that no weapon changes should happen prior to fixing the combat system itself. Otherwise we go back down the road of : "Oh damn.. um... we kinda didn't think of that being an issue when we first did it." which is extremely common in FE's changes over the years.

Edited by Reaps989, 30 April 2014 - 04:57 PM.

Nysek - Mednaught : The only character in FE made of Gammina™

Walls are for horses, I build gosh darning castles of logic to protect us from your constant rain of derp.

Posted Image

Special thanks to Thrillchase for ze banner.

#62
violetnight666x

violetnight666x

    Conscript

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 120 posts
  • Joined 15-February 13

While it won't help with current game mechanics regarding ROF, there are a couple weapons that still retain the ROF this thread is discussing. They are not end game items or capable of doing any viable damage past S2 but they may fill the "void" for those who RP. The Biohazard Rifle, assault rifle, still has a .3 delay. And the GA 77, mission reward sub-machinegun, has a .2 delay. If memory serves, the Redstone 8 (assault rifle and mission reward) still carries the .3 delay as well. Of the three, and I am sure there are more if one were to dig around, the Redstone 8 would be the most viable. Not sure this helps, but an interesting thread nonetheless.


I am an RP'er, but i would never have one of the weak 0.3-0.2 weapons which has been left to neglect for RP. RP is mostly done by emote, and I would usually RP any assault rifle, to be as fast as a real one. I don't want a faster gun just for looking cooler, or for RP. I post this in more the case that, it would be nice to see AR's which are actually functional with faster Rate of fire, RoF being higher means it has less overall DPS but is stronger as a supporting weapon since it would do more damage before a reload, which makes it more ideal for someone with First Aid or any other means of support which you cant use while shooting the enemy.

I guess if i was a lower level id consider holding a bio-hazard rifle (Though i cant remember the stats of it) Just had a quick calculation of the redstone 8, and it seems that the timber wolf does more damage than the redstone 8 without considering clip size, so i don't think id bother with redstone 8 myself. Nice as it would be to have a faster AR it just seems to have nothing going for it to make it effective.

#63
violetnight666x

violetnight666x

    Conscript

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 120 posts
  • Joined 15-February 13

General in an item database you'd have a string of values, mostly numerical, but obviously translate into the overall intended function.

ID, Name, Type (weapon/armor/consumable/etc), EquipID (Where it can be equipped/stored), and further values from there (damage/delay/reload/clip/range/dyeable/etc). After that you'd have possible functions, which would either be enabled or disabled for certain items. Be it if can be traded, sold, etc.

And yes, as I said if it can work properly you could apply what you stated... in theory. It's when it's put into practice and if it has no exploitation/bugs. Also, the server/client have to communicate constantly... there's a reason during lag you can't even reload. :(

But yes, in theory it is possible. The question is "why" and "is it needed' compared to other tasks. If enough players just wanted faster RoF, then it would be faster to just increase RoF while balancing it accordingly. Rather than working on a method to change a weapon's stats, yet it would only benefit rifles? It would be different if they were looking to put in a system for "attachments" for weapons.

Edit : This does not mean I'd push an a system with "attachments" or "modifiers" in terms of silencers and such. It would take a decent sum of time along with quite a bit of testing... plus melee can't exactly get anything so it kinda defeats the purpose of making sure all weapons have their perks/weaknesses.

Edit 2 : The easiest options with quick and efficient results...

  • AR options for lower delay but obviously less damage per shot.
  • Change all ARs to low delay as they were before (.3) with obviously reduced damage.
  • Leave it alone : If it didn't have enough backing, not saying it should be left alone.

At the same time, I still stand behind that no weapon changes should happen prior to fixing the combat system itself. Otherwise we go back down the road of : "Oh damn.. um... we kinda didn't think of that being an issue when we first did it." which is extremely common in FE's changes over the years.


Another way i think of this on the note of you saying how they didn't think of issues when they updated it. To some people this -was- an issue. To change it back to 0.3 would be to fix the issue's that 0.4 caused, (They probably have the old weapon stats still sat around) to install some kind of secondary rate of fire for weapons like AR's would be a way of redeeming themselves for the mess, also i don't see why any other weapons would need modifying. They are all rather balanced (And none of the melee's have had stupid updates done to them which ruins a balance far as i am aware).

While it would be -easier- to just change the values back, its G1 making everything -easier- and lazier for themselves, that has upset balance's. Could be about time they actually put more thought into a weapon update rather than just making a quick change which effects game play by a fair amount.If BR's are good for PvP'ers why do assault rifles need to be made for PvP'ers at the cost of potential PvE effectiveness.

#64
Reaps989

Reaps989

    Supreme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7725 posts
  • Joined 18-May 12

Another way i think of this on the note of you saying how they didn't think of issues when they updated it. To some people this -was- an issue. To change it back to 0.3 would be to fix the issue's that 0.4 caused, (They probably have the old weapon stats still sat around) to install some kind of secondary rate of fire for weapons like AR's would be a way of redeeming themselves for the mess, also i don't see why any other weapons would need modifying. They are all rather balanced (And none of the melee's have had stupid updates done to them which ruins a balance far as i am aware).

While it would be -easier- to just change the values back, its G1 making everything -easier- and lazier for themselves, that has upset balance's. Could be about time they actually put more thought into a weapon update rather than just making a quick change which effects game play by a fair amount.If BR's are good for PvP'ers why do assault rifles need to be made for PvP'ers at the cost of potential PvE effectiveness.


I am sure they keep effects, I doubt they keep weapon stats... as they are numerical values that function from a set of numbers. Not by how complex a single ability may be. Which was a fun conversation I had with NE (As no gaming company I've dealt with has ever scrapped old skills/abilities or other complex factors from their game) when he claimed old abilities, effects, models, animations, and otherwise were "sc****d".

Melee is actually quite balanced, it's the combat system which greatly effected their effectiveness and increased the viability of burst gameplay which was... well I'll be nice and say unnecessary.

As for the weapon update previously, yes there was most likely far more insight in the matter due to the larger group of testers... even if many of which were upset how they were still some weapons released without testing. But, NDA OP so I can't say more than that... since at least that bit of information was correct during open testing.

PVE effectiveness still went up, it's the "feel" that went down.

I am an RP'er, but i would never have one of the weak 0.3-0.2 weapons which has been left to neglect for RP. RP is mostly done by emote, and I would usually RP any assault rifle, to be as fast as a real one. I don't want a faster gun just for looking cooler, or for RP. I post this in more the case that, it would be nice to see AR's which are actually functional with faster Rate of fire, RoF being higher means it has less overall DPS but is stronger as a supporting weapon since it would do more damage before a reload, which makes it more ideal for someone with First Aid or any other means of support which you cant use while shooting the enemy.

I guess if i was a lower level id consider holding a bio-hazard rifle (Though i cant remember the stats of it) Just had a quick calculation of the redstone 8, and it seems that the timber wolf does more damage than the redstone 8 without considering clip size, so i don't think id bother with redstone 8 myself. Nice as it would be to have a faster AR it just seems to have nothing going for it to make it effective.


Again... higher RoF does not effect your healing capability. Otherwise it wouldn't make much sense that most players will go sniper rifles, shotguns, or 2h melee for healing builds. Since the time you use during healing actually fills the gap between attacks, meaning you don't lose potential DPS.

First Aid cannot be used while shooting either, so that doesn't change anything if you can shoot bullets faster. It only means you get to the point where you can heal while reloading faster. Thus, damage per clip (which is higher than the previous setup) instead of issues with time per clip which was not much different.

  • Redstone 8 : .3 delay, 30 shots, 34 damage, 46m range, and 2.5 reload
  • Timberwolf : .4 delay, 35 shots, 56 damage, 50m range, and 2.0 reload

If we consider what you said, that "not considering clip", that means no reload applies either. Even with reload and clip, it's DPS is still higher by an extremely large amount.
  • Clip Time : 8.7 seconds vs 13.6 seconds - First shot does not apply delay, only after first shot.
  • Damage per Clip : 1020 vs 1960 - Almost twice the damage before you reach the end of the second clip
  • DPS without clip : 10.1 DPS vs 22.4 DPS

The only reason "damage per clip" was added to show that it truthfully went up and actually took less time to apply it. Especially when you factor a 2.5 reload time vs 2.0 reload time.

Edited by Reaps989, 01 May 2014 - 01:24 AM.

Nysek - Mednaught : The only character in FE made of Gammina™

Walls are for horses, I build gosh darning castles of logic to protect us from your constant rain of derp.

Posted Image

Special thanks to Thrillchase for ze banner.

#65
violetnight666x

violetnight666x

    Conscript

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 120 posts
  • Joined 15-February 13

I am sure they keep effects, I doubt they keep weapon stats... as they are numerical values that function from a set of numbers. Not by how complex a single ability may be. Which was a fun conversation I had with NE (As no gaming company I've dealt with has ever scrapped old skills/abilities or other complex factors from their game) when he claimed old abilities, effects, models, animations, and otherwise were "sc****d".

Melee is actually quite balanced, it's the combat system which greatly effected their effectiveness and increased the viability of burst gameplay which was... well I'll be nice and say unnecessary.

As for the weapon update previously, yes there was most likely far more insight in the matter due to the larger group of testers... even if many of which were upset how they were still some weapons released without testing. But, NDA OP so I can't say more than that... since at least that bit of information was correct during open testing.

PVE effectiveness still went up, it's the "feel" that went down.



Again... higher RoF does not effect your healing capability. Otherwise it wouldn't make much sense that most players will go sniper rifles, shotguns, or 2h melee for healing builds. Since the time you use during healing actually fills the gap between attacks, meaning you don't lose potential DPS.

First Aid cannot be used while shooting either, so that doesn't change anything if you can shoot bullets faster. It only means you get to the point where you can heal while reloading faster. Thus, damage per clip (which is higher than the previous setup) instead of issues with time per clip which was not much different.

  • Redstone 8 : .3 delay, 30 shots, 34 damage, 46m range, and 2.5 reload
  • Timberwolf : .4 delay, 35 shots, 56 damage, 50m range, and 2.0 reload

If we consider what you said, that "not considering clip", that means no reload applies either. Even with reload and clip, it's DPS is still higher by an extremely large amount.
  • Clip Time : 8.7 seconds vs 13.6 seconds - First shot does not apply delay, only after first shot.
  • Damage per Clip : 1020 vs 1960 - Almost twice the damage before you reach the end of the second clip
  • DPS without clip : 10.1 DPS vs 22.4 DPS

The only reason "damage per clip" was added to show that it truthfully went up and actually took less time to apply it. Especially when you factor a 2.5 reload time vs 2.0 reload time.


I do my first aid healing in-between reloading, so yes, it would hinder DPS while healing. I never heal without a reload, as that would be wasting a perfect chance to reload while healing myself, the only time i heal without reload is while using empathics (Since they can be used while still shooting) Also when i said without reloads on them two rifles.

I meant the timberwolf was ahead without clip space in consideration, so with clip space in consideration of course it'll do more, because it has larger clip and short reload time. All I did was simply point out that the timber wolf's 0.4 delay was doing more than the redstone 8's 0.3 delay, the redstone doesn't have enough power per shot to do as much damage as a timber wolf, even if they both had no reload on them. The redstone's an under powered gun in other words.

Simple formula I used was taking the timber wolfs 56 damage and dividing it then times it back up to show what damage a gun would have to do per bullet on 0.3 RoF to do more damage than timber wolf -Without- clip size in consideration.
56/4 =14 14x3 =42 .

A redstone 8 would need to do at the very least 42 damage just to equal the damage a timber wolf does. so to make it a gun worth the rate of fire it would need to do roughly 45+ damage per shot (considering its 0.3 delay).

I wasn't pointing out anything to back up the matter at hand, I was simply slandering the redstone 8 for sucking.

Edited by violetnight666x, 01 May 2014 - 01:38 AM.


#66
Reaps989

Reaps989

    Supreme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7725 posts
  • Joined 18-May 12

I do my first aid healing in-between reloading, so yes, it would hinder DPS while healing. I never heal without a reload, as that would be wasting a perfect chance to reload while healing myself, the only time i heal without reload is while using empathics (Since they can be used while still shooting) Also when i said without reloads on them two rifles.

I meant the timberwolf was ahead without clip space in consideration, so with clip space in consideration of course it'll do more, because it has larger clip and short reload time. All I did was simply point out that the timber wolf's 0.4 delay was doing more than the redstone 8's 0.3 delay, the redstone doesn't have enough power per shot to do as much damage as a timber wolf, even if they both had no reload on them. The redstone's an under powered gun in other words.

Simple formula I used was taking the timber wolfs 56 damage and dividing it then times it back up to show what damage a gun would have to do per bullet on 0.3 RoF to do more damage than timber wolf -Without- clip size in consideration.
56/4 =14 14x3 =42 .

A redstone 8 would need to do at the very least 42 damage just to equal the damage a timber wolf does. so to make it a gun worth the rate of fire it would need to do roughly 45+ damage per shot (considering its 0.3 delay).

I wasn't pointing out anything to back up the matter at hand, I was simply slandering the redstone 8 for sucking.


I gave a number showing just based on delay, quite sure. I did not give numbers based on reload time either, I said it only further boosts it's DPS. A weapon doing 34 damage every .3 seconds compare to one doing 56 every .4 seconds... ya the one with 56 damage wins in DPS flat out because it deals 22 more damage only .1 after the .3. Even if we considered it in 12 seconds, you have 41 shots (1394) vs 31 shots (1736). It's DPS is always superior regardless of clip size.

If delay was the only factor in clip size than DPS wouldn't have gone up by almost 30 DPS across the board for ARs. Let's go over the numbers of the Redstone 8..

Redstone 8 (old)
  • Damage : 34
  • Clip : 30
  • Delay : .3
  • Reload : 2.5
  • DPS : 91.1

Redstone 8 (higher damage)
  • Damage : 45
  • Clip : 30
  • Delay : .3
  • Reload : 2.5
  • DPS : 120.535 (120.5 in-game)

Almost a 30 DPS increase, you'd need it boosted to 47 to reach 125.89 (125.9 in-game)

DPS is quite easy to figure out if you're just looking for damage prior to mitigation...

Delay(Clip - 1) + Reload = CT (Clip Time)
60/CT = Clips per Minute
Clips per Minute*Total Clip Damage = Damage per Minute
Damage per Minute/60 = DPS

For melee, however, it's simply damage/delay.

Edit : Changed because I mixed range with clip size... to early xD

Edited by Reaps989, 01 May 2014 - 02:46 AM.

Nysek - Mednaught : The only character in FE made of Gammina™

Walls are for horses, I build gosh darning castles of logic to protect us from your constant rain of derp.

Posted Image

Special thanks to Thrillchase for ze banner.

#67
Reaps989

Reaps989

    Supreme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7725 posts
  • Joined 18-May 12
Mmmk... double post?

It's not about if you "waste" that chance to heal while reloading, you make said chance. PVE in FE is hardly difficult by any means. Hell the only reason i use an AR is for Dome and maybe GORE bosses to speed it up. It isn't exactly "required".

Except that's just because I refuse to make more ammo than I am required to complete a task.For PVP I might use an AR to troll with charge shots, because the amount of upfront burst is insane as it doesn't bug. But since generally I am more-so in group PVP than solo PVP the shotgun with sniper (or BR) is more ideal for most situations.

That's coming from a player who mains a supportive build tho, which sadly longer delay weapons are far more ideal in every situation as you don't miss out on DPS while supporting your entire team.

This isn't to say AR's are bad at what they do, they're substantially better than they used to be in their current state. If they went back to .3 delay, it just means that damage has to be reduced accordingly... it's not really a complex matter. The problem with ideas is sadly you want a "short term" solution and possible "long term goal" rather than shooting directly for a long term goal.

So where the community might want multiple different firing modes for a range weapon, the timeframe to do that for all AR's would take considerably longer than applying a short term solution while the long term was considered.

Edited by Reaps989, 01 May 2014 - 02:36 AM.

Nysek - Mednaught : The only character in FE made of Gammina™

Walls are for horses, I build gosh darning castles of logic to protect us from your constant rain of derp.

Posted Image

Special thanks to Thrillchase for ze banner.

#68
violetnight666x

violetnight666x

    Conscript

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 120 posts
  • Joined 15-February 13

Delay(Clip - 1) + Reload = CT (Clip Time)
60/CT = Clips per Minute
Clips per Minute*Total Clip Damage = Damage per Minute
Damage per Minute/60 = DPS


Don't mean to sound stupid or anything, but mind giving me an example of exactly what all this means? This makes no sense to me at all, i don't understand whats being done with the brackets and so on. It's been afew year's since i did mathematical sums n all that.....and I'm unsure if this even looks like a sum or just something that's been thrown together to remind someone of a sum, which they already know. (In other words if you want me to understand this formula, you are going to need to baby talk it alittle for me.)

#69
violetnight666x

violetnight666x

    Conscript

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 120 posts
  • Joined 15-February 13
Also redstone 8 has 30 clip, not 46

#70
violetnight666x

violetnight666x

    Conscript

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 120 posts
  • Joined 15-February 13

Mmmk... double post?

It's not about if you "waste" that chance to heal while reloading, you make said chance. PVE in FE is hardly difficult by any means. Hell the only reason i use an AR is for Dome and maybe GORE bosses to speed it up. It isn't exactly "required".

Except that's just because I refuse to make more ammo than I am required to complete a task.For PVP I might use an AR to troll with charge shots, because the amount of upfront burst is insane as it doesn't bug. But since generally I am more-so in group PVP than solo PVP the shotgun with sniper (or BR) is more ideal for most situations.

That's coming from a player who mains a supportive build tho, which sadly longer delay weapons are far more ideal in every situation as you don't miss out on DPS while supporting your entire team.

This isn't to say AR's are bad at what they do, they're substantially better than they used to be in their current state. If they went back to .3 delay, it just means that damage has to be reduced accordingly... it's not really a complex matter. The problem with ideas is sadly you want a "short term" solution and possible "long term goal" rather than shooting directly for a long term goal.

So where the community might want multiple different firing modes for a range weapon, the timeframe to do that for all AR's would take considerably longer than applying a short term solution while the long term was considered.


And i know AR's are not a requirement in dome, in an ideal world personally i would use two deathmax's, or neverenders, unfortunately i do not have access to these. I also do not have stage 3 armor, still using vol meso. Highest round ive made in dome is 9, granted with stage 3 armor i might of made it to round 10.
I am not suggesting that AR's are required to be faster and more ideal for support, I am suggesting it would be very nice, if they were faster and more ideal for support, there is a fair number of people who would probably agree.

#71
Reaps989

Reaps989

    Supreme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7725 posts
  • Joined 18-May 12

Don't mean to sound stupid or anything, but mind giving me an example of exactly what all this means? This makes no sense to me at all, i don't understand whats being done with the brackets and so on. It's been afew year's since i did mathematical sums n all that.....and I'm unsure if this even looks like a sum or just something that's been thrown together to remind someone of a sum, which they already know. (In other words if you want me to understand this formula, you are going to need to baby talk it alittle for me.)


Let me split it up a bit then, all good. I was using the numpad so... "divide" is "/" instead of "÷". So let's just break it down using the current Redstone stats.

34*30 = 1020 (Damage per clip)

You'll need this for final DPS calculation

30 (clip) - 1 = 29 (amount of shots that apply delay)
.3 (delay) * 29 = 8.7 (Delay per clip)

The first shot of any pistol/rifle, basically any weapon with delay/clip/reload, does not apply delay. Thus you must remove this to find total time of clip.

8.7 + 2.5 (reload) = 11.2 (Total time of clip)

The total time spent to unload a clip is required to find the clips per minute as this will make it far easier to find final DPS as it can be divided by 60.

60 ÷ 11.2 = 5.357 (Clips per Minute)

Once you have your clips per minute, you must find out exactly how much damage is dealt within said minute. However, this is "possible" DPS, as unlike other MMOs you are required to aim in FE so only "on paper" DPS can be stated unless you factor a rate of accuracy.

5.357 * 1020 = 5464.285 (Damage per Minute)

Now that we have our damage per minute, we simply divide by 60. FE likes to round up to the nearest tenth for DPS values, yet FE is not consistent in these methods. For example how after resists if you do 20.5 damage, it becomes 21 damage. Same goes for skill/mutation skill ranks, which I'd recommend reading my guide to understand that more. While % passive do not round up at all so if you are at 6.99% for your investment you only gain 6%.

5464.285 ÷ 60 = 91.07 (91.1 in-game)



So you have the total DPS of a weapon, even tho it's not 100% accurate on tooltips because for some reason it rounds up to the nearest tenth.

And i know AR's are not a requirement in dome, in an ideal world personally i would use two deathmax's, or neverenders, unfortunately i do not have access to these. I also do not have stage 3 armor, still using vol meso. Highest round ive made in dome is 9, granted with stage 3 armor i might of made it to round 10.
I am not suggesting that AR's are required to be faster and more ideal for support, I am suggesting it would be very nice, if they were faster and more ideal for support, there is a fair number of people who would probably agree.


And as I said I don't disagree, yet I was pointing out the fact AR's are far better than they previously were. The only issue is the "feel" of them being AR's due to .1 longer delay obviously.

~Edit~

The sad part is, most of this could be addressed within a single day if they had a dev who wasn't focused on the large scale projects. As a large sum of issues in FE are actually byproducts of lack of quality control in terms of how many changes effected existing content. One does not simply change the game entirely yet expect everything to function as effectively as it used to.

Which I'm sure they might get a bit upset with me for that one... I know they can be busy but that's honestly what has hurt the game the most. They "need" someone to handle those situations if they want to continue down the path of "new content" every 4-6 months.

Edited by Reaps989, 01 May 2014 - 03:09 AM.

Nysek - Mednaught : The only character in FE made of Gammina™

Walls are for horses, I build gosh darning castles of logic to protect us from your constant rain of derp.

Posted Image

Special thanks to Thrillchase for ze banner.

#72
violetnight666x

violetnight666x

    Conscript

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 120 posts
  • Joined 15-February 13
okay, now you've shown me it i remember what the * means.

So now I've just worked out an example of what i meant of how the redstone would be ideally to be a gun round bout as good as timber wolf with its 0.3.

45 damage per bullet with same clips space would mean the damage per clip goes to 1350, 11.2 remaining the total time of the clip. Which would put it up to 7231.95 per minute down to 120.5 DPS.

Yes it is less DPS overall than timber wolf, but if the clip size was dis-regarded the 45 damage on a 0.3 clip would do more damage. Therefore if you kill something in less than 30 bullets with the 0.3 it would be quicker, if it was to need to reload, the timber wolf would kill quicker. This is what i am trying to get at, the AR's should be killing quicker before the initial reload in personal opinion.

Though i am not suggesting this just to help support players (Though it would) on a support point of few if the reload values in to round bout 6 seconds a clip that is a perfect rifle for a support player, as stanch wounds also recovers at 6 seconds. Most DPS players go for pistols, as duel wielded pistols do more DPS than any rifle (Top end ones anyhow).

My point being, why make the rifle a DPS weapon, when you could make the Rifle a support weapon. Therefore it gears pistol users for Damage, and rifle users for support. Both gunning role's have an ideal weapon. I am not intending on leaving tankers out of this (Though far as I'm aware most tankers self heal anyhow)

#73
Reaps989

Reaps989

    Supreme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7725 posts
  • Joined 18-May 12

okay, now you've shown me it i remember what the * means.

So now I've just worked out an example of what i meant of how the redstone would be ideally to be a gun round bout as good as timber wolf with its 0.3.

45 damage per bullet with same clips space would mean the damage per clip goes to 1350, 11.2 remaining the total time of the clip. Which would put it up to 7231.95 per minute down to 120.5 DPS.

Yes it is less DPS overall than timber wolf, but if the clip size was dis-regarded the 45 damage on a 0.3 clip would do more damage. Therefore if you kill something in less than 30 bullets with the 0.3 it would be quicker, if it was to need to reload, the timber wolf would kill quicker. This is what i am trying to get at, the AR's should be killing quicker before the initial reload in personal opinion.

Though i am not suggesting this just to help support players (Though it would) on a support point of few if the reload values in to round bout 6 seconds a clip that is a perfect rifle for a support player, as stanch wounds also recovers at 6 seconds. Most DPS players go for pistols, as duel wielded pistols do more DPS than any rifle (Top end ones anyhow).

My point being, why make the rifle a DPS weapon, when you could make the Rifle a support weapon. Therefore it gears pistol users for Damage, and rifle users for support. Both gunning role's have an ideal weapon. I am not intending on leaving tankers out of this (Though far as I'm aware most tankers self heal anyhow)


Rifles have a support option?... Shotguns : 1.7+ Delay with 2.5 reload, allowing you to heal between shots.

Rifles should have a DPS option, even if it's weaker than pistols or dual melee. Even tho currently the AR is kinda high for lacking augmentation at 195. The question still is "why"? It takes 11.2 seconds doing 1350 compared to the Timberwolf's 15.6 which does 1960 damage.

So let's give a few examples

12 seconds
  • Redstone 45 Damage : 1350 - Because you must reload until 13.7 seconds
  • Timberwolf : 1736

24 seconds
  • Redstone 45 Damage : 2970 - As you have 6 shots after the second reload
  • Timberwolf : 2968 - Yet only 22 out of 35 shots were fired during the second clip

36 seconds
  • Redstone 45 Damage : 3060 - As you have 8 shots after the third reload
  • Timberwolf : 4648 - As 13 shots can be fired after second reload

48 Seconds
  • Redstone 45 Damage : 5895 - As you have 11 shots after the forth reload
  • Timberwolf : 6104 - As 4 shots can be fired after third reload

60 Seconds
  • Redstone 45 Damage : 7380 - As you have 14 shots after the fifth reload
  • Timberwolf : 7784 - As 34 shots can be fired after third reload

Even at .3 delay, you're still looking at 9 seconds before reload.... staunch takes 2 seconds to cast with 6 second cooldown. Truthfully you could reload while healing, which would make you not lose DPS. (Which is what you should be doing if you're using staunch)

Edit : I just don't see how lower delay would put AR's under support, especially when you have weapons with longer delay which already widely accepted as "support" weapons. The changes you are asking would actually make it less for support and more for sustained DPS meaning less healing... but you're also nerfing it which actually puts it's functionality worse than it currently is.

Edited by Reaps989, 01 May 2014 - 03:56 AM.

Nysek - Mednaught : The only character in FE made of Gammina™

Walls are for horses, I build gosh darning castles of logic to protect us from your constant rain of derp.

Posted Image

Special thanks to Thrillchase for ze banner.

#74
violetnight666x

violetnight666x

    Conscript

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 120 posts
  • Joined 15-February 13

Rifles have a support option?... Shotguns : 1.7+ Delay with 2.5 reload, allowing you to heal between shots.

Rifles should have a DPS option, even if it's weaker than pistols or dual melee. Even tho currently the AR is kinda high for lacking augmentation at 195. The question still is "why"? It takes 11.2 seconds doing 1350 compared to the Timberwolf's 15.6 which does 1960 damage.



Take this forumla, this will work out a DPS within one clip before reload

S.I.R on default damage does 180 * 8 being 1440
7 * 1.7 making 11.9
So if you would agree that the total damage per clip divided by the time to empty the clip makes DPS of one clip, then follow this
1440/11.9 = 121 DPS

Vol shark would now be 3600 per clip (40*90=3600) 39*0.4=15.6
So 3600/15.6= 231 DPS

So this would mean before considering reload (Which vol shark is quicker by .5) The Vol Shark is already doing more damage.
So no, Shotguns are not viable support weapons. They are heavy hitting weapons good for PvP if you want to hit someone hard with each hit and a large targeting area.

#75
Reaps989

Reaps989

    Supreme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7725 posts
  • Joined 18-May 12

Take this forumla, this will work out a DPS within one clip before reload

S.I.R on default damage does 180 * 8 being 1440
7 * 1.7 making 11.9
So if you would agree that the total damage per clip divided by the time to empty the clip makes DPS of one clip, then follow this
1440/11.9 = 121 DPS

Vol shark would now be 3600 per clip (40*90=3600) 39*0.4=15.6
So 3600/15.6= 231 DPS

So this would mean before considering reload (Which vol shark is quicker by .5) The Vol Shark is already doing more damage.
So no, Shotguns are not viable support weapons. They are heavy hitting weapons good for PvP if you want to hit someone hard with each hit and a large targeting area.



The 1.7 delay allows the ability to use a benevolence, resto, and even a filtration within the delay prior to the second shot. Or even allows a staunch without much loss between shots, making it ideal for support. As you can still deal close to full damage output while preforming this role.

Also the S.I.R. Shotgun after augmentation does 198 damage ontop of it's other stats of 1.7 delay, 2.5 reload, and 8 shots in a clip. Which comes out to 110 DPS, as you still have to factor reload before another clip may be fired. Now during the duration of said clip, prior to reload, it's actually 133.1 DPS.

But of course, the Vol Shark already does considerably higher DPS from delay alone. Even if it's damage is only 90, which is 45.5% of the S.I.R. shotgun's possible damage. Obviously 5 shots prior to the S.I.R. shotgun even using two shots is kinda gonna give it that advantage.

I am confused where that makes it an invalid support weapon, as I've already given the ideal reason "why" it is a valid support weapon in every situation.

Staunch - 2 second cast time
  • Vol Shark : Misses out on a possible 5 shots, yet can also save you time if you reload during Staunch's cast.
  • S.I.R. Shotgun : Misses out by .3 seconds to .5 seconds while using Staunch, so the DPS loss is actually minimal.

Restoration - Truthfully you still require .5 seconds to select and cast on a target, including yourself.
  • Reason you miss out on shots here is because if you use benevolence while in aiming mode it will turn your character for a brief momoment
  • Vol Shark : Misses out on a single shot.
  • S.I.R. Shotgun : Is unlikely to miss out on a shot during this time.

Benevolence - 1 second casting time
  • Reason you miss out on shots here is because if you use benevolence while in aiming mode it will turn your character for a brief momoment
  • Vol Shark : Misses out on two shots.
  • S.I.R. Shotgun : Again, unlikely to miss out on a shot during this time.

Filtration - Heals where you aim, supposively has .5 second casting time even tho it is quite instant. (Uses Pistol/AR/BR/Sniper aiming method)
  • Vol Shark : May cause you to miss out on 1+ shots, as you must aim at an ally to use this ability.
  • S.I.R. Shotgun : Can freely aim between ally and enemy with ease, due to delay between shots.

Vital Osmosis - Same as Benevolence
  • Vol Shark : Misses out on two shots.
  • S.I.R. Shotgun : Again, unlikely to miss out on a shot during this time.

While, even with the damage loss between shots, you still attain higher DPS. By no means does this mean a shotgun, let alone 2h melee, isn't ideal for a support role. On a side note, where a shotgun user must have 100% accuracy you'd have to only have 56% accuracy. But if we also factor shots you can't fire due to healing, would be more like 70% or more in PVP.

What you gave an example of is just that the higher DPS weapon can potentially deal more damage, which is true, yet again that was quite obvious. But most healing is extremely active in FE, so you actually have to factor in DPS you aren't even able to attain.

Edited by Reaps989, 01 May 2014 - 05:39 AM.

Nysek - Mednaught : The only character in FE made of Gammina™

Walls are for horses, I build gosh darning castles of logic to protect us from your constant rain of derp.

Posted Image

Special thanks to Thrillchase for ze banner.

#76
violetnight666x

violetnight666x

    Conscript

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 120 posts
  • Joined 15-February 13

The 1.7 delay allows the ability to use a benevolence, resto, and even a filtration within the delay prior to the second shot. Or even allows a staunch without much loss between shots, making it ideal for support. As you can still deal close to full damage output while preforming this role.

Also the S.I.R. Shotgun after augmentation does 198 damage ontop of it's other stats of 1.7 delay, 2.5 reload, and 8 shots in a clip. Which comes out to 110 DPS, as you still have to factor reload before another clip may be fired. Now during the duration of said clip, prior to reload, it's actually 133.1 DPS.

But of course, the Vol Shark already does considerably higher DPS from delay alone. Even if it's damage is only 90, which is 45.5% of the S.I.R. shotgun's possible damage. Obviously 5 shots prior to the S.I.R. shotgun even using two shots is kinda gonna give it that advantage.

I am confused where that makes it an invalid support weapon, as I've already given the ideal reason "why" it is a valid support weapon in every situation. Benevolance isnt aimed, it is click and cast like first aid is. same for restoration.

Staunch - 2 second cast time

  • Vol Shark : Misses out on a possible 5 shots, yet can also save you time if you reload during Staunch's cast.
  • S.I.R. Shotgun : Misses out by .3 seconds to .5 seconds while using Staunch, so the DPS loss is actually minimal.

Restoration - Truthfully you still require .5 seconds to select and cast on a target, including yourself.
  • Reason you miss out on shots here is because if you use benevolence while in aiming mode it will turn your character for a brief momoment
  • Vol Shark : Misses out on a single shot.
  • S.I.R. Shotgun : Is unlikely to miss out on a shot during this time.

Benevolence - 1 second casting time
  • Reason you miss out on shots here is because if you use benevolence while in aiming mode it will turn your character for a brief momoment
  • Vol Shark : Misses out on two shots.
  • S.I.R. Shotgun : Again, unlikely to miss out on a shot during this time.

Filtration - Heals where you aim, supposively has .5 second casting time even tho it is quite instant. (Uses Pistol/AR/BR/Sniper aiming method)
  • Vol Shark : May cause you to miss out on 1+ shots, as you must aim at an ally to use this ability.
  • S.I.R. Shotgun : Can freely aim between ally and enemy with ease, due to delay between shots.

Vital Osmosis - Same as Benevolence
  • Vol Shark : Misses out on two shots.
  • S.I.R. Shotgun : Again, unlikely to miss out on a shot during this time.

While, even with the damage loss between shots, you still attain higher DPS. By no means does this mean a shotgun, let alone 2h melee, isn't ideal for a support role. On a side note, where a shotgun user must have 100% accuracy you'd have to only have 56% accuracy. But if we also factor shots you can't fire due to healing, would be more like 70% or more in PVP.

What you gave an example of is just that the higher DPS weapon can potentially deal more damage, which is true, yet again that was quite obvious. But most healing is extremely active in FE, so you actually have to factor in DPS you aren't even able to attain.


Reaps, mutations can be used while shooting, no shots are missed unless its an aimed mutation and you are using it on someone else, in other words, no empathics would cause you to miss shots with an AR. Nano will make you miss out of how ever long you are looking away from your target.

If you set hotkey's properly, you can select team mates without looking at them if i am not mistaken. I use a regular keyboard and mouse and even i have key's set for targeting.

Edited by violetnight666x, 01 May 2014 - 07:26 AM.


#77
Reaps989

Reaps989

    Supreme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7725 posts
  • Joined 18-May 12

Reaps, mutations can be used while shooting, no shots are missed unless its an aimed mutation and you are using it on someone else, in other words, no empathics would cause you to miss shots with an AR. Nano will make you miss out of how ever long you are looking away from your target.

If you set hotkey's properly, you can select team mates without looking at them if i am not mistaken. I use a regular keyboard and mouse and even i have key's set for targeting.


I already explained they can be used while shooting, I stated in aiming mode you will be turned in the direction of your target which is true. While you can interupt this turn, you still are going to be off your target for a brief moment.

There are also no hotkeys once you are in a group larger than 8, only for self-targeting. The raid group option disables the standard group hotkeys of F2-8. So in this situation you must also select a target from the raid menu.

I am speaking from a PVP standpoint and how the game directly functions. You're welcome to heal while in aiming mode in a standard team, it will cause your character to turn to where your target is. (Which can also cause errors serverside, which will cause "Not facing" errors)

Said healing abilities will cause you to miss out (not miss as in accuracy wise) on shots you could fire from how the game handles them. Also, not "all" mutations can be used while shooting.
Nysek - Mednaught : The only character in FE made of Gammina™

Walls are for horses, I build gosh darning castles of logic to protect us from your constant rain of derp.

Posted Image

Special thanks to Thrillchase for ze banner.

#78
Danny McKillop

Danny McKillop

    Initiate

  • Members
  • 3 posts
  • Joined 22-June 13
Ok... Im going to say my input, im going to be fair on making this as best I can, and speak of it as how it would work in an MMO; I Play the best of all worlds when it comes to games from Command and Conquer, to high action TitanFall and Battlefield to even racing games. So, I know what im talking about when it comes to balancing things.

Now Before I start I'm going to say My grammar is not the best, So I BEG OF YOU to not bash on me for this, I will try my best.

Anyway; The first time I played this game, I really loved the PVE elements, they were good; though the PVP I felt was more a meth dance than good solid combat. When I first used the A.Rs in this game, the Light rifles I felt had a good solid fire-rate with the 0.3 but the damage was just disgusting, I hated it because the rounds were a bit more hard to make due to the fact it Needed some steel, and the light pistols could do more damage yet... its a smaller caliber, and takes less stuff as it dos not need this steel counterpart to be made. So when it came to PVP, and this high firerate, It could do good at dishing out the DPS, but during the reload a melee fighter could just hit his 3... are 4 button what ever bind you, are he has for there heals and bingo, he has healed all the damage you worked so hard to time and place the bursts of into ... and I quote from what I hear many PVPers call it "Dance" (Ya I know right? hay! your dance is lookin good!... what egiot even called it that in the first place -_-) you have also placed a lot of effort to "dance" from this egiot with a mace are axe, and he still will not die.

This is also another topic to bring up, The fact rifles are so poor in performance means Melee people can dominate against range and the rifles have barely any range to be able to nail the Melee'r before he can even get 2 feet in front of you. when I play an MMO with PVP I Expect to atleast get some roles of teamwork going, A massive tactical battle going due to the fact of the mass numbers of players and actully have PVP be were you have to work as a team to kill the enemy, to flank and do other various roles towards victory; not be rushed by a bunch of melee people, who know they don't have to fear range, because the range in ALL weapons is bad, and there are no massive firerate weapons to dodge and even if thay are hit thay do no effects that make it hard to heal from

So the point Im getting at here, is if Light rifles did more firerate and kept the damage thay do now (And SMGs.....), It wouldn't be overpowerd at all. Now let me explain as to why, It would only make Melee fighters have to work as a team to get around these rifles, like if there is a group of 6 of you using melee and there are 6 guys with Fully auto Carbines, it would be your job to maybe split up, 3 rush the front and 3 rush the back; are if there was a sniper in the group are someone eils with a rifle he himself could drag the attention of the rifle personal to them, to help the melee people flank. This also would make other ranged users may have to do these things aswell, its not just ALL melee people that would have to fight against this rate of fire death weapon, but also the range users would have to rethink there plans against other Carbine/rifle users too, and use alot more cover.

needing to use cover more from this can add more elements of gameplay than you think; this is a good thing because lets admit... Unrealistic combat is the most worst thing ever, not sure about you but I would ,most rather be pitted into situations of needing to use cover, suppressive fire, flanking. and other various roles, then have to absolutely spray at my enemy, watch him run sideways as he heals himself, then watching as the Animation makes him look like hes snorting a line of meth up his wrist to insta heal from the damage and be like "HAHA! NO WAY" The fact that melee Combat people get all these buffs, and have barely any weapons to fear that stop against there might, is what ruins the game at times to, The Lunatic... gets ranged defence.. just what the absolute hell, dos this mean the development teams logic to this is apparently you can swing your blade faster than a bullet and hit all the bullets away? And the blade dos not get worn out at all? To be honest is a round hit a warm blade that hot with the metal being warm, it wouldn't absorb the round as effective as it would in solid average room temperature.

And on this topic... Its silly thay make Carbine rifles (Light Rifle, only two Light rifle models that are not Carbines is the M14 and M16A2) have this less melee defence... so what there saying is I cant hold my gun up to block a melee blow from a sword? A gun would be made from much more solid stuff than a sword would be saying it has to have a frame strong enough to endure the explosion a round gives off, and be able to harbinger the entire weapon system moving at once aswell to combat the recoil, so I dont think that sword will be making any clean cuts anytime soon. Thay give a big warm blade that looks to have some weight to it, this ranged defence and yet they give Carbines which are guns made for C.Q.C a downgrade in melee protection? (Slow clap) Wonderful.

But.. I think I have made my points here, Dont let a guy like me ruin your opinion on Fallen Earth, This right here is my thoughts, If you feel that the current stat of DPS is fine, then by all means enjoy it, but for me? Im just that guy that likes my Cac <---- This is a gelic word, dont bash) to die when I shot it.

#79
violetnight666x

violetnight666x

    Conscript

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 120 posts
  • Joined 15-February 13

Ok... Im going to say my input, im going to be fair on making this as best I can, and speak of it as how it would work in an MMO; I Play the best of all worlds when it comes to games from Command and Conquer, to high action TitanFall and Battlefield to even racing games. So, I know what im talking about when it comes to balancing things.

Now Before I start I'm going to say My grammar is not the best, So I BEG OF YOU to not bash on me for this, I will try my best.

Anyway; The first time I played this game, I really loved the PVE elements, they were good; though the PVP I felt was more a meth dance than good solid combat. When I first used the A.Rs in this game, the Light rifles I felt had a good solid fire-rate with the 0.3 but the damage was just disgusting, I hated it because the rounds were a bit more hard to make due to the fact it Needed some steel, and the light pistols could do more damage yet... its a smaller caliber, and takes less stuff as it dos not need this steel counterpart to be made. So when it came to PVP, and this high firerate, It could do good at dishing out the DPS, but during the reload a melee fighter could just hit his 3... are 4 button what ever bind you, are he has for there heals and bingo, he has healed all the damage you worked so hard to time and place the bursts of into ... and I quote from what I hear many PVPers call it "Dance" (Ya I know right? hay! your dance is lookin good!... what egiot even called it that in the first place -_-) you have also placed a lot of effort to "dance" from this egiot with a mace are axe, and he still will not die.

This is also another topic to bring up, The fact rifles are so poor in performance means Melee people can dominate against range and the rifles have barely any range to be able to nail the Melee'r before he can even get 2 feet in front of you. when I play an MMO with PVP I Expect to atleast get some roles of teamwork going, A massive tactical battle going due to the fact of the mass numbers of players and actully have PVP be were you have to work as a team to kill the enemy, to flank and do other various roles towards victory; not be rushed by a bunch of melee people, who know they don't have to fear range, because the range in ALL weapons is bad, and there are no massive firerate weapons to dodge and even if thay are hit thay do no effects that make it hard to heal from

So the point Im getting at here, is if Light rifles did more firerate and kept the damage thay do now (And SMGs.....), It wouldn't be overpowerd at all. Now let me explain as to why, It would only make Melee fighters have to work as a team to get around these rifles, like if there is a group of 6 of you using melee and there are 6 guys with Fully auto Carbines, it would be your job to maybe split up, 3 rush the front and 3 rush the back; are if there was a sniper in the group are someone eils with a rifle he himself could drag the attention of the rifle personal to them, to help the melee people flank. This also would make other ranged users may have to do these things aswell, its not just ALL melee people that would have to fight against this rate of fire death weapon, but also the range users would have to rethink there plans against other Carbine/rifle users too, and use alot more cover.

needing to use cover more from this can add more elements of gameplay than you think; this is a good thing because lets admit... Unrealistic combat is the most worst thing ever, not sure about you but I would ,most rather be pitted into situations of needing to use cover, suppressive fire, flanking. and other various roles, then have to absolutely spray at my enemy, watch him run sideways as he heals himself, then watching as the Animation makes him look like hes snorting a line of meth up his wrist to insta heal from the damage and be like "HAHA! NO WAY" The fact that melee Combat people get all these buffs, and have barely any weapons to fear that stop against there might, is what ruins the game at times to, The Lunatic... gets ranged defence.. just what the absolute hell, dos this mean the development teams logic to this is apparently you can swing your blade faster than a bullet and hit all the bullets away? And the blade dos not get worn out at all? To be honest is a round hit a warm blade that hot with the metal being warm, it wouldn't absorb the round as effective as it would in solid average room temperature.

And on this topic... Its silly thay make Carbine rifles (Light Rifle, only two Light rifle models that are not Carbines is the M14 and M16A2) have this less melee defence... so what there saying is I cant hold my gun up to block a melee blow from a sword? A gun would be made from much more solid stuff than a sword would be saying it has to have a frame strong enough to endure the explosion a round gives off, and be able to harbinger the entire weapon system moving at once aswell to combat the recoil, so I dont think that sword will be making any clean cuts anytime soon. Thay give a big warm blade that looks to have some weight to it, this ranged defence and yet they give Carbines which are guns made for C.Q.C a downgrade in melee protection? (Slow clap) Wonderful.

But.. I think I have made my points here, Dont let a guy like me ruin your opinion on Fallen Earth, This right here is my thoughts, If you feel that the current stat of DPS is fine, then by all means enjoy it, but for me? Im just that guy that likes my Cac <---- This is a gelic word, dont bash) to die when I shot it.


Something I agree on without needing to use fancy forumla's and fancy talk.

#80
Reaps989

Reaps989

    Supreme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7725 posts
  • Joined 18-May 12

*snip*


With a .3 delay with the current damage you'd be doing 262 DPS, which is far beyond any other weapon's DPS. It would eliminate the purpose of pistols (Just as the AR should have never gone above 190 but they decided 204) in terms of viability outside of maybe Concentration Stance on an extreme AP tight point. Not to mention the fact, unlike dual wield, you won't bug on charge shots which pushes pistols along with 1h melee back even further.

"Dance" is a standard term instead of saying "strafe". There's a reason behind it, yet there's a reason you need solid accuracy to take down a target in an "MMORPG". Melee are mostly strong current due to poor changes to snarebreaks which now make it far easier to dispel snares, so the "mobility" of the standard player has gone waaaaay up so for melee that's a giant boost since they are required to get (and stay) in range.

A target self healing even if they "heal to full" will still die if you have consistent DPS on them, resources do not last forever and self-healing only is effective enough to out heal maybe a shotgun especially if they apply enough pressure.

Melee/Range Defense hardly changes much of anything, yet I do agree rifles should not have a reduction to melee defense even if it's only 1% to 12% dodge passive reduction. The range, however, is not the issue. During 1.9 and before melee were hard-countered by snares when they were used properly along with kiting. Cover was far more important because you couldn't just "ignore" players with poor aim since you'd dispel a snare in less than a second. At the same time, burst is at an all-time high to where a solid group will kill a player instantly if they are stupid enough to "rush in".

The "split up" idea can work, in small scale and large scale fights. The problem is it's rather problematic if players can preform the roles well enough to make it work. At the same time, it's not just damage... it's healing and coordination. It's not an FPS, it's an RPG. You must take all factors into consideration, and in the current "META" play the idea of sitting out of range is extremely poor unless you can clear a distance of 30+ meters while not harming your team's healing potential. But it also means not getting killed instantly for being way out of position for anyone to save you.

It's also not "just" melee that are living forever, it's any weapon type. But it's definitely an issue since you have no real "counters" to melee, so they have a strong place in the game currently.

But I don't disagree melee have a large, large, large advantage in the current build. But the reasons behind why it's as strong as it is is something players would cry bloody murder if they handled snares/snarebreaks.

Edited by Reaps989, 01 May 2014 - 02:54 PM.

Nysek - Mednaught : The only character in FE made of Gammina™

Walls are for horses, I build gosh darning castles of logic to protect us from your constant rain of derp.

Posted Image

Special thanks to Thrillchase for ze banner.


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users