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Faster assault rifle's /smg's


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#1
violetnight666x

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Hello, I am aware that assault rifles had a faster rate of fire in the past. (Unsure if SMG's did as I've never asked anyone and not been playing quite long enough to know if they were faster) I'm not sure how many people agree with me, but in my opinion, fast assault rifle's and SMG's are fun, I couldn't really care less how much more or less practical they are on terms of ammo consumption and accuracy I like an assault rifle, to fire like an assault rifle. One of my main weapons I use is my Volatile M-Croall Shark. I remember when the fire delay was changed from 0.3 to 0.4 . Now I feel i don't need to reload the gun enough I can easily kill 3 enemies in alpha country without a reload. This has actually made the gun alot less fun to use.

I would love to see assault rifles made faster, not only back to 0.3, but maybe even to 0.2. SMG's are at 0.3 at the moment but id love to see them faster, maybe even put them to 0.1 to give SMG's a different feel to assault rifles. I personally don't understand why assault rifles were made slower in the first place.

I have a mix of rifles and pistols on my main. I use the Falcon Omicron .22, which is the level 50 semi auto light pistol with hair trigger. This pistol is also 0.4 delay....So i have a semi automatic pistol, which fire's the same speed as an assault rifle.

Even if there is no changes made to the delay of an assault rifle. I would like to see some effort made to at-least make them look like they fire faster, give them the same 3 burst effect as a neverender or something. Just so it at-least looks like its firing fast like an assault rifle should.

To top off my point of why i dont understand the assault rifles firing slower. I also use hornet auto-pistols at times...These babies fire at 0.2 delay as many people are probably aware. 5 shots a second. Between two of them is 10 shots a second. If pistols can be fired duel at 10 shots a second, why cant an smg, if one can be fired at 5 shots a second, why can't an assault rifle.

Thank you for reading and i seriously hope this topic is not just ignored like many other topics seem to be.
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2016 post edit

 

Since writing this post, not a single thing has been said about it from G1 staff, its been up for over a year, almost 2 years now.

 

May I make a point that alot of people who have come to FE with me over the past year n half, have usually not bothered continuing over 5 days for the pure fact that this game suffers from an obnoxiously slow pace.

 

Speeding up weapon delays would help the game feel slightly faster in pace...(faster damage before reloading, with less overall DPS than now) It would not make assault rifle's OP, It would make them work different to now, but it would improve game play, Assault rifles are currently how battle rifles used to be, battle rifles should be the ones at 0.4 delay, not Assault rifles...untill G1 Actually REPLY to this post with a logical reason why the hell assault rifles and smg's fire so stupidly slow....I am going to beg them to please set delay to most AR's to 0.2 or just back to the 0.3 they used to be, and set smg's to 0.1 or 0.2 and rebalance the DPs accordingly.

Originally the people who complained about AR's were the whiny PvP'ers, Whiny PvP'ers re the past they have moved onto other games now. FOCUS on making PVE fun, because this mmorpg, is essentially PVE based with PVP zones and side activities.

 

Think about the PVE players, make assault rifles and smg's fun to use!


Edited by violetnight666x, 04 March 2016 - 02:29 PM.


#2
Reaps989

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If they were faster they'd have to have their damage reduced, and thus drop in effectiveness greatly. As you'd have an AR with 60-70 damage vs 90+, yet only fire maybe .2 faster.

Lower delay stopped the ability to make the weapon a valid choice, outside of I guess semi-fun factor of lower delay, but it also needed to not outshine pistols as rifles are a "Jack of all Trades" weapon line.

So they changed AR's so they were more valid all around without losing to much.
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#3
violetnight666x

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If they were faster they'd have to have their damage reduced, and thus drop in effectiveness greatly. As you'd have an AR with 60-70 damage vs 90+, yet only fire maybe .2 faster.

Lower delay stopped the ability to make the weapon a valid choice, outside of I guess semi-fun factor of lower delay, but it also needed to not outshine pistols as rifles are a "Jack of all Trades" weapon line.

So they changed AR's so they were more valid all around without losing to much.


That would of been the general idea of it, like they made rifles slower and made em do more damage per bullet, i feel it should of been opposite way, with slightly less damage per bullet and faster shots.

I feel the rifles no one touch called battle rifle's are what should be doing 90 damage per shot with 0.4 delay...not an assault rifle. Assault rifles really should be firing reasonably fast, so you can hit well at medium range, but struggle to aim on target at longer range's. For real an assault rifle would need to be used in short controled bursts just to shot on target at a longer range. A battle rifle should be the more balanced rifle, not an assault rifle.

Edited by violetnight666x, 26 April 2014 - 12:23 PM.


#4
Captain Stabulous

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See, even if they didn't speed up rifles (Which I think they -really- oughta) they really need to consider implementing cosmetic effects at least, as Violet here was saying. They need to invest in doing something like they did with the Neverenders, the Hornets and the Bastards. A cosmetic effect that looks like you're flatout firing an assault rifle. But to be honest, I feel like lowering the damage and increasing the rate of fire would make the game feel more authentic. Even if it's just for a select few guns (Doesn't have to be all of them). It just feels... A little boring. Make SMGs fire much faster (They're not endgame weapons anyways) make assault rifles at least -look- like it, and consider working battle rifles into a quicker rate of fire similar to that of assaults.

#5
violetnight666x

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The way i see it all guns have a range limit, but all of them you can aim at fair ease to the range limit. There's nothing that makes you think....well this rifle is 50 meter range limit, but i can only really fire fully automatic at 20-30 meters, nothing really makes you take your shots easy at range, like I feel you should have to with assault rifle's.

#6
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#7
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That would of been the general idea of it, like they made rifles slower and made em do more damage per bullet, i feel it should of been opposite way, with slightly less damage per bullet and faster shots.

I feel the rifles no one touch called battle rifle's are what should be doing 90 damage per shot with 0.4 delay...not an assault rifle. Assault rifles really should be firing reasonably fast, so you can hit well at medium range, but struggle to aim on target at longer range's. For real an assault rifle would need to be used in short controled bursts just to shot on target at a longer range. A battle rifle should be the more balanced rifle, not an assault rifle.


Battle Rifles were used more than AR's, outside of shooting keep doors and PVE.

Also there is no spread and extremely minor recoil in FE, plus "burst" shots wouldn't play out to well... but that's another story.
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#8
violetnight666x

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Battle Rifles were used more than AR's, outside of shooting keep doors and PVE.

Also there is no spread and extremely minor recoil in FE, plus "burst" shots wouldn't play out to well... but that's another story.


The recoil on this, isn't much at all for close range shooting, but at longer range, the recoil even on a 0.4 delay, is enough to have slight struggle to aim every shot a head shot in PvE even on a scoped rifle, id imagine that minor recoil to be perfect for something with 0.2 delay on it. The hornet auto-pistols are renowned for being difficult to aim. But that just makes em fun to use. I still wouldn't burst fire em as-such, but i do at times need to lay off the trigger with em just to re-adjust the aim.

#9
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The recoil on this, isn't much at all for close range shooting, but at longer range, the recoil even on a 0.4 delay, is enough to have slight struggle to aim every shot a head shot in PvE even on a scoped rifle, id imagine that minor recoil to be perfect for something with 0.2 delay on it. The hornet auto-pistols are renowned for being difficult to aim. But that just makes em fun to use. I still wouldn't burst fire em as-such, but i do at times need to lay off the trigger with em just to re-adjust the aim.


Ya there's some recoil on lower delay pistols.

Still stands at they'd have to reduce the damage if they went back to the previous delay... thus making them far less viable as they can't even compare to heavy pistols on DPS.
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#10
violetnight666x

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Ya there's some recoil on lower delay pistols.

Still stands at they'd have to reduce the damage if they went back to the previous delay... thus making them far less viable as they can't even compare to heavy pistols on DPS.


Why should a rifle compare with a heavy pistol on DPS? Way I see it, the rifle actually has wasted DPS to use to full effect for some builds, on an effectiveness level, more reloads and more damage from more shots and less damage per bullet between reloads, would actually make a rifle more effective for me, and funner, Because as it stands I rarely reach the end of the clip before i want to reload and heal myself unless i forget to self heal. A rifle to me is not a purely DPS weapon, its a support weapon to me, because the length of the reload is pretty much perfect time to use staunch wounds. To make an assault rifle compare to a heavy pistol to me just feels wrong.

If people want a weapon like heavy pistols, why don't they just use, heavy pistol's. I write this post for people (like myself) who don't want a weapon like all the other's. But want a weapon that is actually like an assault rifle. As i mentioned in a previous comment, battle rifles are hardly touched because they are imbalanced to the other weapons. If people want balanced rifle's, why isn't the battle rifle made more ideal for people who want a jack of all trades rifle, instead of an assault rifle?

#11
violetnight666x

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I know some people want weapons for PvP, but i think people need to think more for PvE too. Let's face it, PvP is nothing like it used to be. (Not that I've ever really been into PvP in the first place) I feel by making the assault rifle's slower, while it might benefit a PvP'er effectiveness wise. It still regardless makes the assault rifle a boring weapon, makes it less fun to use for PvE players (Which amounts to more than half of the FE player base far as i'm aware). Within PvP I seem to notice heavy pistols and shotguns being the effective weapons anyhow. Forgive me if this is a miss-judgement. I haven't got tables in front of me or anything I'm just going from what I've seen since i came back to FE. Most the major PvP clans have quit and moved to different games.

I just feel slower rifles to hang onto the few people left doing PvP seems like a poor reason to slow one gun and make it boring, when they could make other guns such as BR's more effective for PvP in place of assault rifles. I don't know many people who use medium rifles simply because they are not very effective.

Not to mention people hardly touch the smg's because they are also not half as good as the assault rifles after the item level 50 smg's. There is nothing that really points them out as a weapon to aim for. the best SMG available has just under 150 DPS if i remember right (not logged onto FE right now to look at it).

#12
violetnight666x

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If they don't want to -ruin the jack of all trade's aspect- of an assault rifle, couldn't there at least be a burst fire effect added to assault rifle's, like the neverenders and bastards use, just to make them at least look, like they fire fast.

#13
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Since the change ARs are more commonly used in all forms of play, but as I said "if" they make it faster they'd have to lower the damage per shot.

As for "burst" animation it's tied to the model, so they'd need to prepare a new animation... so I doubt they'd do that.

While I enjoyed the faster RoF on an AR, the reason it wasn't commonly used was infact it's damage (30-40 damage per shot after resists) and obviously capping out alittle over 160 DPS. Which made it weaker than bother methods of dual wield.

As for Heavy Pistols, yet another issue as they are the higher caliber of pistols. Which outclass medium and light, as depressing as that is, but at least is a bit better since their changes as well... at least better then it would have been with other changes.

They "could" make the AR faster, it could "look" better with less delay, but then you also kill any reason to use it. Especially since prior to the changes the DPS boost from AR was poor compared to BRs, Snipers, and Shotguns.

So if they went back to .3 delay, they'd most likely have to drop damage across the board. The best AR right now would most likely have to do 65 damage per shot.
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#14
violetnight666x

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Since the change ARs are more commonly used in all forms of play, but as I said "if" they make it faster they'd have to lower the damage per shot.

As for "burst" animation it's tied to the model, so they'd need to prepare a new animation... so I doubt they'd do that.

While I enjoyed the faster RoF on an AR, the reason it wasn't commonly used was infact it's damage (30-40 damage per shot after resists) and obviously capping out alittle over 160 DPS. Which made it weaker than bother methods of dual wield.

As for Heavy Pistols, yet another issue as they are the higher caliber of pistols. Which outclass medium and light, as depressing as that is, but at least is a bit better since their changes as well... at least better then it would have been with other changes.

They "could" make the AR faster, it could "look" better with less delay, but then you also kill any reason to use it. Especially since prior to the changes the DPS boost from AR was poor compared to BRs, Snipers, and Shotguns.

So if they went back to .3 delay, they'd most likely have to drop damage across the board. The best AR right now would most likely have to do 65 damage per shot.


While your point is true, same time if it was balanced out properly, surely AR's would still be effective in situations like PvE. Surely it would be possable to balance an assault rifle out so it did about 190-200 DPS with faster rate of fire. It would still require less damage per bullet, But if they balanced it out right the rate of fire would make up for less damage per bullet. Can't seriously tell me they cant balance it out to roughly the same DPS as it is now between delay and damage per bullet.

Also way i see it if they are making a whole new map (The outpost) I don't see why they cant make a new animation for assault rifles. (Sorry G1 for sounding like a s*** head as id imagine it is a fair bit of work to do animations)

#15
Reaps989

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While your point is true, same time if it was balanced out properly, surely AR's would still be effective in situations like PvE. Surely it would be possable to balance an assault rifle out so it did about 190-200 DPS with faster rate of fire. It would still require less damage per bullet, But if they balanced it out right the rate of fire would make up for less damage per bullet. Can't seriously tell me they cant balance it out to roughly the same DPS as it is now between delay and damage per bullet.

Also way i see it if they are making a whole new map (The outpost) I don't see why they cant make a new animation for assault rifles. (Sorry G1 for sounding like a s*** head as id imagine it is a fair bit of work to do animations)


AR's are still extremely effective in PVE yet were greatly boosted for PVP situations. And that's why I gave the number of 65 (Granted, that would put it at 183) so most likely 68 (191 DPS) or 67 (188 DPS).

As for animations for weapons, I can't exactly say. But they'd definitely have to design/copy the older model, re-do the animation, and then obviously add it into the game. Mind you this would be for EVERY assault rifle, which is quite alot.
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#16
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AR's are still extremely effective in PVE yet were greatly boosted for PVP situations. And that's why I gave the number of 65 (Granted, that would put it at 183) so most likely 68 (191 DPS) or 67 (188 DPS).

As for animations for weapons, I can't exactly say. But they'd definitely have to design/copy the older model, re-do the animation, and then obviously add it into the game. Mind you this would be for EVERY assault rifle, which is quite alot.


Exactly why i hate to sound like a s*** head for making animations sound remotely easy lol, though in fairness most assault rifles are just re-skinned versions of the same models. So would probably only need to do animations for bout 4-5 different models then it would be fairly universal. Id imagine...

#17
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Exactly why i hate to sound like a s*** head for making animations sound remotely easy lol, though in fairness most assault rifles are just re-skinned versions of the same models. So would probably only need to do animations for bout 4-5 different models then it would be fairly universal. Id imagine...


While the animation wouldn't be complex, they'd require new models to tie the animation to... also there are quite a bit more than 4-5 different models.
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#18
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To me a 0.4 delay on an assault rifle would be slow in real life. But as for Fallen Earth stop for a moment and count out 1 second. You can fire 2.5 shots in that time theoretically which for it's purpose is fast as it stands for a game. Damage ratios/PvP Vs. PvE aspect aside the idea of this fire rate is well though out and I hold no complaints about it. But I do see where your concern is in-game they do appear to fire fairly slowly. :P
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#19
Reaps989

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To me a 0.4 delay on an assault rifle would be slow in real life. But as for Fallen Earth stop for a moment and count out 1 second. You can fire 2.5 shots in that time theoretically which for it's purpose is fast as it stands for a game. Damage ratios/PvP Vs. PvE aspect aside the idea of this fire rate is well though out and I hold no complaints about it. But I do see where your concern is in-game they do appear to fire fairly slowly. :P


Indeed they do fire slowly compared to other games... yet FE is an MMORPG with FPS elements. It would be different if it was an FPS (And honestly, FE would fail as a pure FPS as there are far better options) it would make sense.

@OP

If we tried to factor full automatic RoF, we'll take an M16 for example, which is about 850 per minute. So we're talking 13 shots can be fired in a second, granted that's going to greatly depend on the ability of the user to reload fast enough to continue said cycle... but anyways.

To attain that you'd need a .07 delay, not factoring (And with good reason because we'd be going even lower on delay... most likely .03-.04 to factor maybe a .5 second reload) current reload time, now here comes the fun part. How will it handle this data on an MMO scale? Not that well when it comes to the amount of data going in/out of the server to clients.

But let's make it easier, we'll go with .1 as it's delay. Even at 30 damage per shot, keeping all of the other stats, it would be at 187.5 DPS. It might feel more realistic but unless you landed well over 60% then it's pretty pointless. If I am not mistaken the current delay is .4 (compared to the previous .3), while it's reload was reduced by .5 as well, which allowed the damage to be increased by 30. Battle Rifles of course were bumped to .7 delay,

Weapons should be viable in both PVE and PVP situations, even if that means you lose some of the feel for said weapons. AR's and BR's are more common thanks to those changes in PVP, yet I haven't seen a drop in ARs for PVE. Which I doubt anyone would have changed from an AR when they got upwards of 20+ DPS from said changes.

The only point I've brought up is "why" they were changed and "what has to change" if they were reduced on delay. If players were happy with 30 damage per shot with .1 delay... then I don't really see an issue. However, in the current state of Charge Shots it would have to wait until that was balanced.

Edited by Reaps989, 27 April 2014 - 04:49 PM.

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#20
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Indeed they do fire slowly compared to other games... yet FE is an MMORPG with FPS elements. It would be different if it was an FPS (And honestly, FE would fail as a pure FPS as there are far better options) it would make sense.

@OP

If we tried to factor full automatic RoF, we'll take an M16 for example, which is about 850 per minute. So we're talking 13 shots can be fired in a second, granted that's going to greatly depend on the ability of the user to reload fast enough to continue said cycle... but anyways.

To attain that you'd need a .07 delay, not factoring (And with good reason because we'd be going even lower on delay... most likely .03-.04 to factor maybe a .5 second reload) current reload time, now here comes the fun part. How will it handle this data on an MMO scale? Not that well when it comes to the amount of data going in/out of the server to clients.

But let's make it easier, we'll go with .1 as it's delay. Even at 30 damage per shot, keeping all of the other stats, it would be at 187.5 DPS. It might feel more realistic but unless you landed well over 60% then it's pretty pointless. If I am not mistaken the current delay is .4 (compared to the previous .3), while it's reload was reduced by .5 as well, which allowed the damage to be increased by 30. Battle Rifles of course were bumped to .7 delay,

Weapons should be viable in both PVE and PVP situations, even if that means you lose some of the feel for said weapons. AR's and BR's are more common thanks to those changes in PVP, yet I haven't seen a drop in ARs for PVE. Which I doubt anyone would have changed from an AR when they got upwards of 20+ DPS from said changes.

The only point I've brought up is "why" they were changed and "what has to change" if they were reduced on delay. If players were happy with 30 damage per shot with .1 delay... then I don't really see an issue. However, in the current state of Charge Shots it would have to wait until that was balanced.



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Vol Sharks, the highest dps rifle in game, Is practically useless in pvp. You need to land every shot to actually do some damage. Imagine 30 damage shots spammed every 0.2 seconds. With the current combat system, increasing the rate of fire and lowering damage per shot would make rifles ABSOLUTELY useless in pvp. They would still work for prolonged pve engagements, but the balance between gear being used for pvp and pve would be destroyed.

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#21
Reaps989

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^^
Vol Sharks, the highest dps rifle in game, Is practically useless in pvp. You need to land every shot to actually do some damage. Imagine 30 damage shots spammed every 0.2 seconds. With the current combat system, increasing the rate of fire and lowering damage per shot would make rifles ABSOLUTELY useless in pvp. They would still work for prolonged pve engagements, but the balance between gear being used for pvp and pve would be destroyed.


It's not useless... but it's definitely lacking thanks to not being an augmentation weapon :(

The loss of 80 HP and possible augmentations is a biiiiiiiig deal.
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#22
violetnight666x

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^^
Vol Sharks, the highest dps rifle in game, Is practically useless in pvp. You need to land every shot to actually do some damage. Imagine 30 damage shots spammed every 0.2 seconds. With the current combat system, increasing the rate of fire and lowering damage per shot would make rifles ABSOLUTELY useless in pvp. They would still work for prolonged pve engagements, but the balance between gear being used for pvp and pve would be destroyed.


From what I've noticed, most PvP'ers use shotgun's and pistols. By all means an assault rifle isn't the most common PvP weapon as it is. Far as I've noticed. Plus I have actually known the hornet auto pistols to be used in PvP and work. Which fire at 0.2 delay. Which is where I am trying to come from.

I think it is wrong to say that a rifle would become -ABSOLUTELY- useless, while it may not have the same kind of effect as it does with the current 0.4. When they changed it from 0.3 to 0.4 the assault rifle became a different weapon.
I got an assault rifle to deal damage in one clip fast. I thought that was the soul purpose of an assault rifle. If i wanted a rifle to deal lots of damage within one clip, I would want a battle rifle (In an ideal world).

I just think its wrong for people to forget that there are weapon types more suited for PvP and weapon types more suited for PvE, and when they changed assault rifles from 0.3 to 0.4, It felt a lot like they were just taking another weapon away from being more ideal for PvE, and making more for PvP. I am not by any means a PvP player. Yes I have played PvP, (And while i may not be great at it i'm still fairly decent in some PvP situations) but I am a PvE player.

Just feel at time's it was a lazy move to slow down assault rifle's, when they could of done something to balance battle rifle's to make them usable effectively for situations like PvP((besides possably AP rifle)). Last time I checked no battle rifle had DPS anywhere near an assault rifle's, yet they are supposed to be an in between rifle.

Edited by violetnight666x, 27 April 2014 - 09:05 PM.


#23
Reaps989

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From what I've noticed, most PvP'ers use shotgun's and pistols. By all means an assault rifle isn't the most common PvP weapon as it is. Far as I've noticed. Plus I have actually known the hornet auto pistols to be used in PvP and work. Which fire at 0.2 delay. Which is where I am trying to come from.

I think it is wrong to say that a rifle would become -ABSOLUTELY- useless, while it may not have the same kind of effect as it does with the current 0.4. When they changed it from 0.3 to 0.4 the assault rifle became a different weapon.
I got an assault rifle to deal damage in one clip fast. I thought that was the soul purpose of an assault rifle. If i wanted a rifle to deal lots of damage within one clip, I would want a battle rifle (In an ideal world).

I just think its wrong for people to forget that there are weapon types more suited for PvP and weapon types more suited for PvE, and when they changed assault rifles from 0.3 to 0.4, It felt a lot like they were just taking another weapon away from being more ideal for PvE, and making more for PvP. I am not by any means a PvP player. Yes I have played PvP, (And while i may not be great at it i'm still fairly decent in some PvP situations) but I am a PvE player.

Just feel at time's it was a lazy move to slow down assault rifle's, when they could of done something to balance battle rifle's to make them usable effectively for situations like PvP((besides possably AP rifle)). Last time I checked no battle rifle had DPS anywhere near an assault rifle's, yet they are supposed to be an in between rifle.



Battle Rifles were already effective in a PVP setting, more-so than AR's. And were indeed used for mid/close combat, and quite effective at that.

BR's were only changed to boost effectiveness while also not breaking past AR's in terms of DPS.
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#24
violetnight666x

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Battle Rifles were already effective in a PVP setting, more-so than AR's. And were indeed used for mid/close combat, and quite effective at that.

BR's were only changed to boost effectiveness while also not breaking past AR's in terms of DPS.


Not being funny but id hardly call a Grifter Battle Rifle's base damage of 107 any deal better, than a vol shark's 90 damage per shot. Battle rifles are an abomination (personal opinion). If they did indeed want it powerfull without breaking the DPS of an assault, they picked the wrong method by making it weaker alltogether. If an assault rifle has faster shots at scarific of DPS. A battle rifle would still be in balance. If you see where im coming from.

Grifter base DPS is 136.9, Vol Shark is 204.5, I personally call that a very large difference, too big for me to even consider using a grifter, even for PvP, Logically id just go for a sniper. Because Assaults are too high DPS with bullets not that much faster than BR's to think an assault rifle doesn't even fit 2 shots in by the time the BR fire's its 2nd shot.

I'd use assault or sniper for that fact in PvP. Battle rifle just seems to fill a gap which is pointless, because its too weak for its rate of fire, for its rate of fire it should be doing much more damage, considering an assault rifle fire 0.3 faster and only does 17 less damage than one of the best BR's (Before augment of course).

I just do not see how a BR has been molded to fit in with assaults and snipers atall, which suggests to me iver the BR or the assault rifle's need a change, Which speeding an assault rifle up to give less DPS but more damage in short time, to me is logical as it weakens the assault rifle DPS wise, but it also boosts the assault rifle for its main purpose which is to deal damage within a close/medium range.

Grifter sniper has 116.9 DPS without augment. Why is it that two non augmented top end weapons are 116.9 and 136.9 DPS, when a vol shark (Which is alot easier to get hold of) has 204.5 DPS. If it was quicker and had less bullet per damage I would see it logically fit if this gun only had about 180 DPS. To me, and many other's it would be a fun gun to use (If you ignore the stats you must admit having a gun that fire's fast is pretty bad patootie and fun). The DPS would also remain high -BUT- not too high to outrank hard to get weapons yet high enough to compete against these weapons still.

I don't mean to discard your comments but by all means why is an old weapon, being matched so closely to weapons that people grind their asses off to get hold of. I personally also have a S.I.R shotgun. But I rarely use it because the Shark simply outranks the S.I.R in pretty much every way. I have the S.I.R at the moment because it simply looks cool (I love shotguns).

Edited by violetnight666x, 28 April 2014 - 08:45 AM.


#25
violetnight666x

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I would also like to add how before the assault rifles were made 0.3 to 0.4. The best form of DPS was pistols (Still are but only if you grind your patootie off for DT/AP weapons) Pistols equal in effort to abtain in the game to the Vol shark (Or less) Best DPS is Hornet auto-pistol 98.7 DPS, closely followed by Volatile Redstone .40 at 98.2 DPS. By slowing down the AR's and giving them more damage, these guns are now effectively usless, I only have pistols for RP now (plus i like using pistols as they are fun) Realistically, my main source of DPS is my rifle. Which i feel is wrong, a rifle which has more range, more control and more damage per bullet, can outrank in everyday a pistol, which when duel wielded, should have better DPS than a rifle, which i consider a rifle a Support weapon.

Rifle for support, pistols for DPS. The only thing that makes Redstones better support than assault rifle is a longer reload (Ideal for healing on that time). But for one single rifle out out-class pistols in DPS I feel is just wrong. I always geared up playing FE with an understanding the Pistols were for DPS rifles were for support, therefore always played the game to that belief till 0.4 delay kicked into rifles.
Some people might just say -Go get neverenders/deathmax pistols- But that isnt the point, Vol Shark is a rifle manageable to get hold of, i simply don't dedicate enough hours into grinding my patootie off in dome to get these weapons, and PvP has no interest to me what so ever. I am a PvE player.

From everything you have said in your comments about the balancing of the gun's just suggests that every single player does PvP to grind for these better guns. Would you of suggests when G.O.R.E were good to people who find issue with balancing of guns to just buy a G.O.R.E gun? It's not that simple. Some people Iv'er can not, or just simply can't be bothered to PvP and dome grind to get better weapons, there is stuff people find funner about the game than those two things.And the things that people find fun about the game, give nothing to the player enough to compensate for the game hours, while people who go into BS/Dome get more than a standard PvE player would get in a mounth, within about a day.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like you are only interested in people who can access top range guns which a fair majority of players do not, alot of people even with one or two AP weapons still do not even have stage 3 armour, some don't even have stage 2.

It might sound daft for me to say weaken a gun's DPS, by making it faster when i am one of the players that cant access top gear. Specially when i don't PvP to get top end weapons. But i simply feel a weapon which i can get with ease, shouldn't be slown down, just to suit up with weapons that dedicated players can get.

#26
Reaps989

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Not being funny but id hardly call a Grifter Battle Rifle's base damage of 107 any deal better, than a vol shark's 90 damage per shot. Battle rifles are an abomination (personal opinion). If they did indeed want it powerfull without breaking the DPS of an assault, they picked the wrong method by making it weaker alltogether. If an assault rifle has faster shots at scarific of DPS. A battle rifle would still be in balance. If you see where im coming from.

Grifter base DPS is 136.9, Vol Shark is 204.5, I personally call that a very large difference, too big for me to even consider using a grifter, even for PvP, Logically id just go for a sniper. Because Assaults are too high DPS with bullets not that much faster than BR's to think an assault rifle doesn't even fit 2 shots in by the time the BR fire's its 2nd shot.

I'd use assault or sniper for that fact in PvP. Battle rifle just seems to fill a gap which is pointless, because its too weak for its rate of fire, for its rate of fire it should be doing much more damage, considering an assault rifle fire 0.3 faster and only does 17 less damage than one of the best BR's (Before augment of course).

I just do not see how a BR has been molded to fit in with assaults and snipers atall, which suggests to me iver the BR or the assault rifle's need a change, Which speeding an assault rifle up to give less DPS but more damage in short time, to me is logical as it weakens the assault rifle DPS wise, but it also boosts the assault rifle for its main purpose which is to deal damage within a close/medium range.

Grifter sniper has 116.9 DPS without augment. Why is it that two non augmented top end weapons are 116.9 and 136.9 DPS, when a vol shark (Which is alot easier to get hold of) has 204.5 DPS. If it was quicker and had less bullet per damage I would see it logically fit if this gun only had about 180 DPS. To me, and many other's it would be a fun gun to use (If you ignore the stats you must admit having a gun that fire's fast is pretty bad patootie and fun). The DPS would also remain high -BUT- not too high to outrank hard to get weapons yet high enough to compete against these weapons still.

I don't mean to discard your comments but by all means why is an old weapon, being matched so closely to weapons that people grind their asses off to get hold of. I personally also have a S.I.R shotgun. But I rarely use it because the Shark simply outranks the S.I.R in pretty much every way. I have the S.I.R at the moment because it simply looks cool (I love shotguns).


BR also has augmentation which adds another 10% damage, making the damage total go to 117. Even then, during the open testing I posted about it's low damage when compared to an AR. At the same time, it's range is 90m which is a biiiig deal if it's damage got higher. But I don't disagree the method on how they handled it's damage is... depressing... compared to it's AR counterpart.

The AR is only .1 slower in terms of 2 shots compared to 1. But again, I didn't disagree here either. Only pointed out if delay is changed damage much be lower. But a sniper can compare to a weapon that can pump out slightly more damage, faster, and thus you're able to hit someone with two charge shots before the sniper uses one.

As for DPS gap between AR and BR, as I stated the BR can't be addressed because they haven't removed it's 90m range which makes using a sniper quite pointless once you attain the augmentation BR. Even then, the augmentation BR you can stack 80 HP along with quite a few other stats... that greatly outweighs the DPS gain from AR unless you can land enough shots for it to count. Especially when it's basically an auto-sniper compared to any other sniper rifle.

And trust me, I've pointed this out many times when they made the AR changes (In-game, Steam, and otherwise)... as for S.I.R. vs AR, in a PVE setting yes but in a PVP setting? Not so much, as burst currently is the "META". But I don't disagree on the fact the AR's base states, for a non-augmentation weapon, the fact how it was addressed was depressing, and of course the differences in stats is kinda... ya...

"I" was not the one who made these choices, so I can't exactly state why ARs/BRs have the stats they were given. AR's obviously should have more DPS, BRs should deal more damage but lose DPS, and then finally you reach snipers/shotguns in terms of "burst" which snipers should pull ahead in DPS purely on the fact they don't get the melee/shotgun aiming method.

On paper, yes, a shotgun looks quite bad... (Granted it's ranged-melee with ammo/reload so it's actually not bad at all especially for requiring 175/190/193 rifle depending on gear) until you use it for burst during PVP. If NPCs could heal and reacted based on damage, shotgun could pull ahead because heals in FE are reactive. That's why burst is so powerful in the current state of the game and why DPS has dropped in viability, since burst has gotten far to high.

Edited by Reaps989, 28 April 2014 - 09:53 AM.

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#27
violetnight666x

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BR also has augmentation which adds another 10% damage, making the damage total go to 117. Even then, during the open testing I posted about it's low damage when compared to an AR. At the same time, it's range is 90m which is a biiiig deal if it's damage got higher. But I don't disagree the method on how they handled it's damage is... depressing... compared to it's AR counterpart.

The AR is only .1 slower in terms of 2 shots compared to 1. But again, I didn't disagree here either. Only pointed out if delay is changed damage much be lower. But a sniper can compare to a weapon that can pump out slightly more damage, faster, and thus you're able to hit someone with two charge shots before the sniper uses one.

As for DPS gap between AR and BR, as I stated the BR can't be addressed because they haven't removed it's 90m range which makes using a sniper quite pointless once you attain the augmentation BR. Even then, the augmentation BR you can stack 80 HP along with quite a few other stats... that greatly outweighs the DPS gain from AR unless you can land enough shots for it to count. Especially when it's basically an auto-sniper compared to any other sniper rifle.

And trust me, I've pointed this out many times when they made the AR changes (In-game, Steam, and otherwise)... as for S.I.R. vs AR, in a PVE setting yes but in a PVP setting? Not so much, as burst currently is the "META". But I don't disagree on the fact the AR's base states, for a non-augmentation weapon, the fact how it was addressed was depressing, and of course the differences in stats is kinda... ya...

"I" was not the one who made these choices, so I can't exactly state why ARs/BRs have the stats they were given. AR's obviously should have more DPS, BRs should deal more damage but lose DPS, and then finally you reach snipers/shotguns in terms of "burst" which snipers should pull ahead in DPS purely on the fact they don't get the melee/shotgun aiming method.

On paper, yes, a shotgun looks quite bad... (Granted it's ranged-melee with ammo/reload so it's actually not bad at all especially for requiring 175/190/193 rifle depending on gear) until you use it for burst during PVP. If NPCs could heal and reacted based on damage, shotgun could pull ahead because heals in FE are reactive. That's why burst is so powerful in the current state of the game and why DPS has dropped in viability, since burst has gotten far to high.


I know how a S.I.R would be ideal in PvP, not only is it a hard hitter, but it also had a nice sized targeting area, being a shotgun. Allows for more accurate powerful hits. But it still doesn't change the fact that it's use is limited in PvE, just feel it would be nice if the shotguns actually had some kind of proper use in PvE aswell as PvP, that makes it a weapon worth considering stat wise (Instead of just being worth for looking like a cool gun in my case).

Also can't help but notice the convosation has swayed intierly towards rifle's, and we both seemed to of forgetton how i mentioned at first, SMG's.
Any thoughts on smg's? As they have been left to a fair share of neglect.

Not swaying the conversation away from assault rifle's but would be nice to see some bout smg's too. People hardly think bout smg's anymore because they seriously are useless at high level compared to other guns.

Edited by violetnight666x, 28 April 2014 - 10:04 AM.


#28
Reaps989

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I know how a S.I.R would be ideal in PvP, not only is it a hard hitter, but it also had a nice sized targeting area, being a shotgun. Allows for more accurate powerful hits. But it still doesn't change the fact that it's use is limited in PvE, just feel it would be nice if the shotguns actually had some kind of proper use in PvE aswell as PvP, that makes it a weapon worth considering stat wise (Instead of just being worth for looking like a cool gun in my case).

Also can't help but notice the convosation has swayed intierly towards rifle's, and we both seemed to of forgetton how i mentioned at first, SMG's.
Any thoughts on smg's? As they have been left to a fair share of neglect.

Not swaying the conversation away from assault rifle's but would be nice to see some bout smg's too. People hardly think bout smg's anymore because they seriously are useless at high level compared to other guns.


As I said, if NPCs were more difficult and could counter DPS via healing like PVPers can a shotgun could be ideal. But since there is no mechanic like that in FE, DPS is king rather than reactive play.

I have pointed during the time I was in Decon that SMGs needed "something"... but pistols already have the option of high DPS. So it's a touchy subject since FE lacks any recoil/spread compared to other games with FPS elements. SMGs are known for CQC, high rate of fire, and obviously easy control.

So there's not much you can do with it except for maybe mimic the AR... but you'd either outclass other weapons under pistol or it would continue to be poor. It definitely needs a buff tho, without a doubt. Same goes for Sawn off Shotguns, which the "Murder of Crows" was pretty depressing :(

And since any pistol in FE tends to have more effective range, that kinda hurts SMGs alot... their only benefit could be quick reload with high DPS. Kinda like ARs, so basically they'd be weapons that are pretty damn similar except ARs would have more range. So nomatter what it would always be sub-par, but at least it would be better than it's current state.

The main problem with weapon balance has always been advising them to change weapons across the board, yet also considering all weapons in-game. Which I'm sure I might be a bit blunt at times, it's the truth.

  • The pistol changes weren't so bad in terms of reload time, the GORE pistols could've been given an extra shot in their clip along with 5m range.
    • Even if the playerbase refuses to believe me, it was faaaaar better than the alternative option given.
  • SMG's could use a proper buff to compare to ARs, yet maybe only reach 40m.
    • SMG's should obviously pass medium/heavy pistols in DPS
  • AR changes didn't make much sense as they didn't include an augmentation variant. Yet none should reach past 50m.
    • AR's delay is indeed a big long but functionality in both areas (PVP and PVE) is a biiiig deal.
    • AR's should not past light pistols in DPS.
  • BR changes helped but honestly the gap between BR/AR is quite insane. But the fact the augmentation rifle has 90m range means it cannot be touched, once it is I'd say BR's need a minor damage boost across the board while reaching no farther than 60m-66m
    • BR's should not pas medium/heavy pistols in DPS
  • Snipers and Shotguns are solid where they are, they work as intended, and the only one stepping on Sniper's territory is the new BR.


I can promise I've gone over many suggestions towards weapon changes, especially underused. Even if a few select players of the game think it's for "personal gain". I just want to see there being purpose behind every skill, mutation, and weapon type... rather than the current which you're almost strong-armed into choices as they are just vastly superior in every possible situation.

Edited by Reaps989, 28 April 2014 - 10:34 AM.

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#29
violetnight666x

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As I said, if NPCs were more difficult and could counter DPS via healing like PVPers can a shotgun could be ideal. But since there is no mechanic like that in FE, DPS is king rather than reactive play.

I have pointed during the time I was in Decon that SMGs needed "something"... but pistols already have the option of high DPS. So it's a touchy subject since FE lacks any recoil/spread compared to other games with FPS elements. SMGs are known for CQC, high rate of fire, and obviously easy control.

So there's not much you can do with it except for maybe mimic the AR... but you'd either outclass other weapons under pistol or it would continue to be poor. It definitely needs a buff tho, without a doubt. Same goes for Sawn off Shotguns, which the "Murder of Crows" was pretty depressing :(

And since any pistol in FE tends to have more effective range, that kinda hurts SMGs alot... their only benefit could be quick reload with high DPS. Kinda like ARs, so basically they'd be weapons that are pretty damn similar except ARs would have more range. So nomatter what it would always be sub-par, but at least it would be better than it's current state.

The main problem with weapon balance has always been advising them to change weapons across the board, yet also considering all weapons in-game. Which I'm sure I might be a bit blunt at times, it's the truth.

  • The pistol changes weren't so bad in terms of reload time, the GORE pistols could've been given an extra shot in their clip along with 5m range.
    • Even if the playerbase refuses to believe me, it was faaaaar better than the alternative option given.
  • SMG's could use a proper buff to compare to ARs, yet maybe only reach 40m.
    • SMG's should obviously pass medium/heavy pistols in DPS
  • AR changes didn't make much sense as they didn't include an augmentation variant. Yet none should reach past 50m.
    • AR's delay is indeed a big long but functionality in both areas (PVP and PVE) is a biiiig deal.
    • AR's should not past light pistols in DPS.
  • BR changes helped but honestly the gap between BR/AR is quite insane. But the fact the augmentation rifle has 90m range means it cannot be touched, once it is I'd say BR's need a minor damage boost across the board while reaching no farther than 60m-66m
    • BR's should not pas medium/heavy pistols in DPS
  • Snipers and Shotguns are solid where they are, they work as intended, and the only one stepping on Sniper's territory is the new BR.


I can promise I've gone over many suggestions towards weapon changes, especially underused. Even if a few select players of the game think it's for "personal gain". I just want to see there being purpose behind every skill, mutation, and weapon type... rather than the current which you're almost strong-armed into choices as they are just vastly superior in every possible situation.


Must admit, I agree with what you just said. I just feel that assault rifle's need to be weakened down, (personally i still say speed em up, itll take ALOT to sway that opinion) my shark should not compare to the DT/AP weapons, it needs to be weaker in DPS. But to do that, really they need to add an AP/DT assault rifle to bring the balance back. (Once again all personal opinion)

#30
Reaps989

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Must admit, I agree with what you just said. I just feel that assault rifle's need to be weakened down, (personally i still say speed em up, itll take ALOT to sway that opinion) my shark should not compare to the DT/AP weapons, it needs to be weaker in DPS. But to do that, really they need to add an AP/DT assault rifle to bring the balance back. (Once again all personal opinion)


Oh I know, this was a big conflict for myself and many others. We'll see how it goes, hopefully sooner rather than later xD
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#31
SirSplatsalot

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All for lower delay ARs. SMGs too. Ofc keeping dps balanced. I have a feeling 0.1-0.2 might be too much for the server to handle though. Hornets are fun but I've usually received an uneven rof from em.

Balancing base damage and delay to not mess up dps isn't a huge feat of maths. I'm sure it can be dealt with.

But as pointed out, it shouldn't be for all of the rifles. Make a couple and see how they perform, if players choose to use them etc. A couple new weapons that feel cool just adds flavor.

Stay away from Basta.rd type sounds tho. So out of tune with shots fired it makes em worse. And the lag they generated...
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#32
violetnight666x

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All for lower delay ARs. SMGs too. Ofc keeping dps balanced. I have a feeling 0.1-0.2 might be too much for the server to handle though. Hornets are fun but I've usually received an uneven rof from em.

Balancing base damage and delay to not mess up dps isn't a huge feat of maths. I'm sure it can be dealt with.

But as pointed out, it shouldn't be for all of the rifles. Make a couple and see how they perform, if players choose to use them etc. A couple new weapons that feel cool just adds flavor.

Stay away from Basta.rd type sounds tho. So out of tune with shots fired it makes em worse. And the lag they generated...


I highly doubt the server would struggle to hold 0.2 AR's, specially considering how small the player base how now become, it was handling 0.3 when there was a lot more players. All area's are split into sub server's too. If the game sub server's can handle citadel, i'm sure it could handle rifles at 0.2
Especially if they can handle duel'ed pistols, AR at 0.2 would be no different to a large group of people duel wielding light pistols.

Edited by violetnight666x, 28 April 2014 - 11:54 AM.


#33
Reaps989

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I highly doubt the server would struggle to hold 0.2 AR's, specially considering how small the player base how now become, it was handling 0.3 when there was a lot more players. All area's are split into sub server's too. If the game sub server's can handle citadel, i'm sure it could handle rifles at 0.2
Especially if they can handle duel'ed pistols, AR at 0.2 would be no different to a large group of people duel wielding light pistols.


Indeed .2 wouldn't be to bad... the issue is mostly the fact when you slap in cycled charge shots. It gets pretty silly xD

@Demo/Splats

Ya it wouldn't be difficult to balance, but people seemed to use them more once their damage was higher and delay was longer... who knows. I am not on Decon tho so unless they take suggestions more seriously it's kinda unlikely. Let alone if they want realistic numbers they need to take them seriously, rather than slapping numbers on a weapon and "trying" it even if open testers agree it's pretty derp.
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#34
violetnight666x

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Indeed .2 wouldn't be to bad... the issue is mostly the fact when you slap in cycled charge shots. It gets pretty silly xD

@Demo/Splats

Ya it wouldn't be difficult to balance, but people seemed to use them more once their damage was higher and delay was longer... who knows. I am not on Decon tho so unless they take suggestions more seriously it's kinda unlikely. Let alone if they want realistic numbers they need to take them seriously, rather than slapping numbers on a weapon and "trying" it even if open testers agree it's pretty derp.


I actually remember a lot of people getting rid of their assault rifles when the delay was moved to 0.4. Though same time, I was almost one of them, and also I think most of em just went back to assault rifles eventually.

#35
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Adding the burst fire effect from Neverenders/Bastards would greatly increase the immersion, atleast for me. I hope it will be added in a patch sometime.

#36
Reaps989

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I actually remember a lot of people getting rid of their assault rifles when the delay was moved to 0.4. Though same time, I was almost one of them, and also I think most of em just went back to assault rifles eventually.


There were some that were iffy, until they noticed the DPS jumped by 20+.
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#37
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There were some that were iffy, until they noticed the DPS jumped by 20+.


I noticed immediately how much DPS went up, but personally i still thought it sucked, I thought AR's were slow enough as it was. Without them being slowed down further.

#38
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all of this confuses me but hey. im up for more reaslistic feel for the game

#39
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All for lower delay ARs. SMGs too. Ofc keeping dps balanced. I have a feeling 0.1-0.2 might be too much for the server to handle though. Hornets are fun but I've usually received an uneven rof from em.

Balancing base damage and delay to not mess up dps isn't a huge feat of maths. I'm sure it can be dealt with.

But as pointed out, it shouldn't be for all of the rifles. Make a couple and see how they perform, if players choose to use them etc. A couple new weapons that feel cool just adds flavor.

Stay away from Basta.rd type sounds tho. So out of tune with shots fired it makes em worse. And the lag they generated...


You know, now that Sirslapshot here has put it into perspective, maybe the burst sounds wouldn't be so great. HOWEVER, I do feel like they would have no reason to be worried about trying this concept out once. Maybe do it to a few guns, or even add some guns (New or old models) that have sped up fire-rate and slightly reduced damage. Something like the hornets, but in assault rifle form. I think it would be really neat and immersive maybe even to just mess about with. Either way, I would really like to see faster assault rifles implemented somehow, be it a full overhaul or some slight modifications to a few select guns. Is that too much to ask? :o

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Reaps989

Reaps989

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You know, now that Sirslapshot here has put it into perspective, maybe the burst sounds wouldn't be so great. HOWEVER, I do feel like they would have no reason to be worried about trying this concept out once. Maybe do it to a few guns, or even add some guns (New or old models) that have sped up fire-rate and slightly reduced damage. Something like the hornets, but in assault rifle form. I think it would be really neat and immersive maybe even to just mess about with. Either way, I would really like to see faster assault rifles implemented somehow, be it a full overhaul or some slight modifications to a few select guns. Is that too much to ask? :o


No it's not, just making sure people know "if" it was lowered in delay they'd have to lower the damage... I don't believe "burst" works as some people are hoping tho tbh.
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