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#1
Tremondously

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Hey everyone. We wanted to start a new thread for discussion about the effects on PTS. With this latest update the numbers are very close to what they were the last time these changes were on PTS. If you get a chance, please take a moment to test out these new numbers and let us know what you think. If you have suggestions or notice that things in game don't match up with the numbers listed here, let us know.


ARMOR USE

Dreadnaught - Lessened speed penalty at higher ranks.

"Skill 		Description                                                     Duration
54		Primary resists increased by 75, speed reduced by 10%		Stance
69		Primary resists increased by 116, speed reduced by 9%		Stance
84		Primary resists increased by 158, speed reduced by 9%		Stance
99		Primary resists increased by 200, speed reduced by 8%		Stance
114		Primary resists increased by 242, speed reduced by 8%		Stance
129		Primary resists increased by 283, speed reduced by 7%		Stance
144		Primary resists increased by 325, speed reduced by 7%		Stance
159		Primary resists increased by 366, speed reduced by 6%		Stance
174		Primary resists increased by 408, speed reduced by 6%		Stance
189		Primary resists increased by 450, speed reduced by 5%		Stance"


DIRTY TRICKS

Sabotage - Reduces damage output from melee, rifle, and pistol weapons.

"Skill		Description		             Duration		Cost		Cooldown
70		reduces physical damage by 15%		20		38		60
100		reduces physical damage by 20%		20		55		60
130		reduces physical damage by 25%		20		72		60
160		reduces physical damage by 30%		20		88		60
190		reduces physical damage by 35		20		105		60"


DODGE

Duck and Weave - Reserve a percentage of Stamina rather than expending it per point of damage reduced.

"Skill		Description		                       Duration		Cost
57		Reduces all incoming damage by 10%		stance		50% stamina
87		Reduces all incoming damage by 10%		stance		45% stamina
117		Reduces all incoming damage by 10%		stance		40% stamina
147		Reduces all incoming damage by 10%		stance		35% stamina
177		Reduces all incoming damage by 10%		stance		30% stamina"


ESCAPE ARTIST

Misdirection - Increased both the duration and cooldown

"Skill		Description		                                   Duration		Cost		Cooldown
105		increase primary armor 283 secondary/tertiary 339 		30		16		60
135		increase primary armor 449 secondary/tertiary 539		30		20		60
165		increase primary armor 616  secondary/tertiary 739		30		24		60
195		increase primary armor 783 secondary/tertiary 939		30		28		60"

FIRST AID

Save Yourself - Renew has been replaced with Save Yourself. Suck it Up now clears snares. Save Yourself grants you 20% of your max health as temporary health. It will increase your max health for the duration, but the amount of gained health is lost when the effect wears off. Example: Your max health is 600 and you're at 50 hit points. You use rank 1 of this ability and your health is now showing 200/750. If you lose >= 50 health in the next 6 seconds, when this effect wears off you will lose the 150 temporary health and die.

"Skill		Description		                                                           Duration		Cost		Cooldown
84		Temporarily gain 20% of your max hp. Health is lost when the effect expires.		6		40		150
114		Temporarily gain 20% of your max hp. Health is lost when the effect expires.		12		60		150
144		Temporarily gain 20% of your max hp. Health is lost when the effect expires.		18		80		150
175		Temporarily gain 20% of your max hp. Health is lost when the effect expires.		24		100		150"

MELEE

Charge - No longer boosts power. No longer equally effective at the lowest rank.

"Skill		Description		Duration		Cost		Cooldown
60		boost speed by 6%		8		33		300
90		boost speed by 12%		16		50		300
120		boost speed by 18%		24		67		300
150		boost speed by 26		32		83		300
180		boost speed by 30		40		100		300"


PRECISION

Perfect Timing - Increases damage output of melee, pistol, and rifle weapons for the next attack within 6 seconds.

"Skill		Description		                           Duration		Cost		Cooldown
63		Boosts physical damage of next attack by 3%		6		19		300
93		Boosts physical damage of next attack by 6%		6		35		300
123		Boosts physical damage of next attack by 9%		6		52		300
153		Boosts physical damage of next attack by 12%		6		69		300
183		Boosts physical damage of next attack by 15%		6		85		300"


SOCIAL

Motivational Speaker - Replaces Flag of Truce

"Skill		Description		                                                Duration
70		Increase the effectiveness of heals on your team by 5%. 		Aura
100		Increase the effectiveness of heals on your team by 10%. 		Aura
130		Increase the effectiveness of heals on your team by 15%. 		Aura
160		Increase the effectiveness of heals on your team by 20%. 		Aura
190		Increase the effectiveness of heals on your team by 25%. 		Aura"


ILLUMINATION

Meditation

"Skill		Description		                                                              Duration
51		Increase team stamina/gamma regen by 3, 5% more mutation damage output       		aura 
69		Increase team stamina/gamma regen by 6, 5% more mutation damage output	        	aura 
87		Increase team stamina/gamma regen by 9, 10% more mutation damage output	        	aura 
105		Increase team stamina/gamma regen by 12, 10% more mutation damage output		aura 
123		Increase team stamina/gamma regen by 15, 15% more mutation damage output		aura 
141		Increase team stamina/gamma regen by 18, 15% more mutation damage output		aura 
159		Increase team stamina/gamma regen by 21, 20% more mutation damage output		aura 
177		Increase team stamina/gamma regen by 24, 20% more mutation damage output		aura 
195		Increase team stamina/gamma regen by 27, 25% more mutation damage output		aura" 


NANO-MANIPULATION

Vital Osmosis - Back to only healing your team, but retaining most of the buffs we gave the ability

"Skill		Description		         Cast Time		Cost 
45		heals  team in a cone for 30		1		30
63		heals team in a cone for 50		1		40
81		heals team in a cone for 75		1		50
99		heals team in a cone for 100		1		60
117		heals team in a cone for 125		1		70
135		heals team in a cone for 150		1		80
153		heals team in a cone for 200		1		90
171		heals team in a cone for 250		1		100
189		heals team in a cone for 275		1		110"


PATHO-TRANSMISSION

Debilitating Weakness - AoE 5 non-teamed targets near caster. Reduces target's damage output from melee, rifle, and pistol weapons.

"Skill		Description		                                                           Duration		Cost 		Cooldown
60		reduces physical damage output by 5%. AoE up to 5 targets, excluding teammates		10		33		60
78		reduces physical damage output by 8%. AoE up to 5 targets, excluding teammates		10		43		60
96		reduces physical damage output by 11%. AoE up to 5 targets, excluding teammates		10		53		60
114		reduces physical damage output by 14%. AoE up to 5 targets, excluding teammates		10		63		60
132		reduces physical damage output by 17%. AoE up to 5 targets, excluding teammates		10		73		60
150		reduces physical damage output by 20%. AoE up to 5 targets, excluding teammates		10		83		60
168		reduces physical damage output by 23%. AoE up to 5 targets, excluding teammates		10		93		60
186		reduces physical damage output by 26%. AoE up to 5 targets, excluding teammates		10		103		60"

Sapping Sickness - Increased snare amount. Ignores teammates.

"Skill		Description		                                   Duration		Cost		Cooldown
72		AoE snare, up to 8 targets. Speed reduced by 35%		15		33		120
90		AoE snare, up to 8 targets. Speed reduced by 40%		15		44		120
108		AoE snare, up to 8 targets. Speed reduced by 45%		15		55		120
126		AoE snare, up to 8 targets. Speed reduced by 50%		15		66		120
144		AoE snare, up to 8 targets. Speed reduced by 55%		15		77		120
162		AoE snare, up to 8 targets. Speed reduced by 60%		15		88		120
180		AoE snare, up to 8 targets. Speed reduced by 65%		15		99		120"

Wracking Pains - Reduces regen by a larger amount and has a longer cooldown.

"Skill		Description		                                   Duration		Cost		Cooldown
48		reduces targets  regen by 9  - health, stamina, gamma 		15		22		60
66		reduces targets  regen by 12  - health, stamina, gamma 		15		27		60
84		reduces targets  regen by 15  - health, stamina, gamma 		15		35		60
102		reduces targets  regen by 18  - health, stamina, gamma 		15		42		60
120		reduces targets  regen by 21  - health, stamina, gamma 		15		50		60
138		reduces targets  regen by 24  - health, stamina, gamma 		15		57		60
156		reduces targets  regen by 27  - health, stamina, gamma 		15		65		60
174		reduces targets  regen by 30  - health, stamina, gamma 		15		72		60
192		reduces targets  regen by 33  - health, stamina, gamma 		15		80		60"


PRIMAL

Beast Might - Increased damage here

"Skill		Description		                          cost				
72		60 crushing damage to next attack 		18 health 
90		70 crushing damage to next attack 		27 health 
108		80 crushing damage to next attack 		36 health 
126		90 crushing damage to next attack 		45 health 
144		120 crushing damage to next attack 		54 health 
162		130 crushing damage to next attack 		63 health 
180		140  crushing damage to next attack 		72 health" 

Primal Vigor - Increased the amount of health granted by this ability.

"Skill		Description		       Duration		Cost
48		increases health by 65		stance		50% gamma 
66		increases health by 85		stance		50% gamma 
84		increases health by 105		stance		50% gamma 
102		increases health by 120		stance		50% gamma 
120		increases health by 145		stance		50% gamma 
138		increases health by 165		stance		50% gamma 
156		increases health by 185		stance		50% gamma 
174		increases health by 205		stance		50% gamma 
192		increases health by 225		stance		50% gamma" 


SONIC

Catastrophic Dissonance

"Skill		Description		         Cost		Cooldown
60		25 sonic damage aoe		43		30
78		40 sonic damage aoe		53		30
96		55 sonic damage aoe		63		30
114		70 sonic damage aoe		73		30
132		85 sonic damage aoe		83		30
150		100 sonic damage aoe		93		30
168		115 sonic damage aoe 		103		30
186		130 sonic damage aoe		113		30"

Rending Vibration

"Skill		Description		                   Duration		Cost		Cooldown
72		24 sonic damage per second in a cone		15		36		60
90		30 sonic damage per second in a cone		15		46		60
108		36 sonic damage per second in a cone		15		56		60
126		42 sonic damage per second in a cone		15		66		60
144		48 sonic damage per second in a cone		15		77		60
162		54 sonic damage per second in a cone		15		87		60
180		60 sonic damage per second in a cone		15		97		60"


SUPPRESSION

Denial
"Skill		Description		                                 Cost		Cooldown
48		reduces target's gamma and stamina by 100		50		60
66		reduces target's gamma and stamina by 125		62		60
84		reduces target's gamma and stamina by 150		75		60
102		reduces target's gamma and stamina by 175		87		60
120		reduces target's gamma and stamina by 200		100		60
138		reduces target's gamma and stamina by 225		112		60
156		reduces target's gamma and stamina by 250		125		60
174		reduces target's gamma and stamina by 275		137		60
192		reduces target's gamma and stamina by 300		150		60"

Thwarted Intention

"Skill		Description		                           Duration		Cost		Cooldown
72		reduces healing done to the target  by 4%		15		25		60
90		reduces healing done to the target by 10%		15		45		60
108		reduces healing done to the target by 16%		15		65		60
126		reduces healing done to the target by 22%		15		85		60
144		reduces healing done to the target by 28%		15		105		60
162		reduces healing done to the target by 36%		15		125		60
180		reduces healing done to the target by 40%		15		150		60"


TELEKINESIS

Always Armed

"Skill		Description		               Cost
48		24 damage each time you hit		7
66		27 damage each time you hit		10
84		32 damage each time you hit		13
102		38 damage each time you hit		16
120		44 damage each time you hit		19
138		48 damage each time you hit		22
156		55 damage each time you hit		25
174		60 damage each time you hit		38
192		66 damage each time you hit		31"

Bend Metal - Debuff amount was slightly reduced. 1 minute cooldown.

"Skill		Description		           Duration		Cost
72		Reduces target armor by 164		10		30
90		Reduces target armor by 340		10		37
108		Reduces target armor by 515		10		45
126		Reduces target armor by 696		10		52
144		Reduces target armor by 883 		10		59
162		Reduces target armor by 1076		10		66
180		Reduces target armor by 1300 		10		73"

Propel

"Skill		Description		                 Cost		Cooldown
60		64 crushing every time you hit		20		10
78		87 crushing every time you hit		30		10
96		110 crushing every time you hit		40		10
114		133 crushing every time you hit		50		10
132		156 crushing every time you hit		60		10
150		179 crushing every time you hit		70		10
168		202 crushing every time you hit		80		10
186		225 crushing every time you hit		90		10"








Edited by Tremondously, 29 January 2013 - 08:54 AM.

-The dev formerly known as Neverender-

#2
Ardenn

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Don't know if I'll be able to get into the PTS from work, but the updates make me hopeful that I'll be slaughtered in a much more interesting variety of ways in the near future. ;)
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#3
AgentNoir

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Well you will be slaughtered by dt/prec/suppression/patho...not by tk though that's lols now. Was op but yeah lol.

Suppression is ridiculous...itll become standard...Also is siphon energy still going to exist with the healing debuff and denial?


Also...charge...cooldown of 5 minutes or 30 seconds? Does it actually last for 40 seconds at rank 5? Will it expire on attack? Why such a drastic and VERY iffy change? Numbers seem off compared to ingame.

DT duration says only 15 ingame. This should be removable.

Patho...max reduction should be 20%...that snare is ridiculous.

Sonic dot is still broken and at second highest doing like 160 dps.

Is primal vigor actually a stance? If so...so bad.

It's good vital osmosis got restored...but the cooldown seems too long...way too long considering some of the stuff you are adding.

TK cooldown isn't there.

Edited by AgentNoir, 29 January 2013 - 03:19 PM.

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#4
mrpaced

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u gunna change the gore sword attack speed to either 1.5 or 1.6? will post later on with test info

ps fix sonic dot on pts its not suppose to do 150 damage @ rank 6.....

can we also get consumables on PTS and 2nd tier of deathtoll plx needed for testing

also please fix this f***king issue My link

Edited by mrpaced, 29 January 2013 - 05:33 PM.

lifenet workr(Ganksters), thi zen(SnM), paced(SnM)

#5
mrpaced

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IMO ofc

starting with nano the aoe heal shouldnt be 2 mins cd (cooldown) thats kinda to long im thinking like 45 secs or 1 min would be better.

so im guessing instead of balancing G.O.R.E we r just gunna have to rely on damage debuffing i dont see how this will work but will give it a shot. so i see this combat system is to counter cross healing but i dont understand why? for those of u people who want 2 sec fights ur in the wrong game go play a FPS shooter not a FPS RPG.......

patho- the snare should only be 5 or 10 secs since its such a heavy snare @ 65% max rank 15 secs is a lil over powered imo

suppression- make the heal debuff clear able (meaning able to remove the debuff)
and possibly tone down the amount of stam and gam u take due to 300 stamina and 450 gamma (this is max rank suppression obv and its 450 gamma cause u still have siphon energy which is another 150 gamma) in short words if u get hit with this ur alrdy dead. i was thinking like 250 stamina and 375 gamma @ max rank dropping it by 50 stamina and 75 gamma it doesn't seem like much but trust me it is lol. the heal debuff should be 10 secs unless we r are gunna be able to clear that debuff if not then i suggest the debuff timer drops a little or that's just overpowered

sonic- wasnt able to fully test this right due to its broken on pts ranks either due way to much damage example as 150 dot damage per sec. fix this please

TK- (TELEKINESIS) the armor debuff isnt 1 min on pts so my guess is that neverender either trying to troll or something but w.e i like the change unless it is suppose to be 1 min long if so then no one will use this i would suggest either 10 or 15 secs instead of 1 min

armor use - the stance i like the change now we can use that stance tyvm.

dirty tricks- the Sabotage ability could drop by 5% so @ max rank its 30% not 35%

escape artist- i see u made them 30 secs long and 1 min cd good job there.

first aid- no problems there

yes i know wut i suggested was small amounts of change but like ive alrdy said small amounts are still something.

PS was wondering if theres gunna be another tier of death toll gear o-o? sorry but farming pve is not wut i wanna do for my gear id rather fight other players for my ethug status ! <--- kidding btw for those of u that take me srzly btu srzly new death toll gear please.
lifenet workr(Ganksters), thi zen(SnM), paced(SnM)

#6
Cpt. Beer

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The changes seems to be ok to me, but that suppression skill seems to be OP. like some guy is running around with a Big Lunatic and give a nice 400 crit and use the skill you won't will be able to heal the damage and then he hit u an other time and it's game over.

#7
Alvaro Early

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Agree that Suppression is little OP. High rank Denial is a beast, but maybe it would gave the stamina regen items market a chance. The Save Yourself is tricky - it would give much "draw games". SY 3 is buffing my health up to 900 for 15 seconds. If enemy would damage me badly and i would kill him, game will treat this as a suicide when my normal health will back and kill me?

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#8
AroSei

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Agree that Suppression is little OP. High rank Denial is a beast, but maybe it would gave the stamina regen items market a chance. The Save Yourself is tricky - it would give much "draw games". SY 3 is buffing my health up to 900 for 15 seconds. If enemy would damage me badly and i would kill him, game will treat this as a suicide when my normal health will back and kill me?


We will take a look at all your feedback today, thanks for checking these changes out so fast!

The sonic bug is totally my fault - I'll fix that asap.

M

#9
Andrew Leslie

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I don't test described here skills on PTS (las ttime i visit PTS was ~23.01), but carefully look at numbers here. Early i wrote about make last level of ability more effecient then previous – how about such idea? In case of mutations it give incentives to raise Willpower, most useless attribute for now. In case of skills – heighten interest to make more specialized builds.

And about present numbers. Most changes in skills looks very good to me – almost perfect. Only little remarks. But in case of mutations... But in order:

Armor Use's Dreadnought looks very good. But anyway, useless for PVP stance.

Dodge. Imho 20% for last level will be more good. 30% too high cost, and hardly anybody will learn this skill so high – passive bonus too low. May be 50-43-35-27-20? Or to be perfect – 40-35-30-25-20.

Dirty Tricks looks perfect. I don't count 35% damage reduction too op because it require 190 in skill. Now it will be really awesome skill line. Almost must have : )

Escape Artist. It's all right with Missdirection, now it will be really good fast buff. But what about Dash? Cooldown 2 (full two!) minutes, 25% stamina cost and huge combat skill reduction. Ok, ok, let this ability reduce combat abilities. But such great cooldown in combination with Charge changes.. May be make cooldown even 1 minute? And extend duration to 8 (better 10) seconds, as Charge 1 before?

First Aid. I don't see extra reason in this new ability, Save Yourself, but don't want talk about it. Only my question – which power will be Suck It Up? What level you need to remove Average snares? Improved snares? 162? 192? How much uses to remove?

Melee. Well, now this skill is for melee fighters only and we save 59 APs in any other build. But 40 seconds duration at 180 skill? Not too much? May be make duration 10 seconds to all levels and reduce stamina cost by /2? And how about cooldown – 300 seconds or 30? Are the Charge will be remove when you hit enemy?

Precision. Changed Perfect Timing looks much better then previous useless edition. Sadly i don't see, what will be real damage in comparison with Precise Hit and Bull's Eye. But why this 6 seconds duration? Why not toggle ability? And what about cooldown – 300 seconds or 30?

Social. For me, all looks good. Must have for professional healers.

Illumination. Also, looks good to me. Really good support aura. And why you don't change Endless Reserves stance? -25% health make it absolutely useless. Make it.. about 25-23-20-18-15-13-10-8 and it will be awesome support stance.

Nano. For me all looks good.

Patho. Imho, 65% for 15 seconds is overkill. Reduce all effects for -10% will be good. And what strenght of this debuff? What level Suck it Up we need to remove? About Wracking Pain – don't see reason in this ability. Why your new ability Thwarted Intention replace awesome Sap Stamina? Replace this Wracking Pain with it!

Supression. As i say above – why you replace very good and useable ability? Sap Stamina was VERY good! Why you left Siphon Energy and remove Sap Stamina? Throw out Wracking Pain and set your Thwarted Intention here, and return Sap Stamina, stamina drain much more useable then gamma drain!
About Denial – ability really op. -300 stamina/gamma make target dead more guaranteed then -300 HP per minute. -200 must be _maximum_. And how you picture -100 stamina to 15-20 level character? Now you need only 48 in skill to remove 1/2-2/3 stamina from this low level toons. What makes it uber ability to kill any shotgun users.

Primal. For me changes with Beast Might looks good. But what with Rampage? At test server i see longer duration, 15 seconds for buff and 25 for debuff. And Primal Vigor. You make it stance, not toggle? In this case, may be 1/4 gamma reserved will be enough?

Sonic. What are you doing with this op DOT, Rending Vibration? Are you see all other DOTs what make maximum 24 hp/sec (and 35 for FIVE seconds Napalm, what beat _secondary resists_)? 60/sec – and may affect not only one opponent! 40 – this number may be good. Don't forget – cone what affect many opponents, 15 seconds and penetrate TERTIARY resists! Are you want turn FE PVP in fantasy battles of wizards with light sabers? Light sabers already present, now we got deadly Fireballs? And you remove drain stamina ability, but left alone drain gamma – all for sorcerers?

Telekinesis. Another spoiled and deformated mutation with such values. 1 minute cooldown for Bend Metal. Yes, 3 seconds are too little cooldown, but 1 minute makes all this mutation useless. Again, you raise power of fireballs (Always Armed and Propel), and turn best armor debuff in useless trash.


Summary. Most changes looks good, but Telekinesis, Supression, Sonic and Patho need strong revision. Leave alone Sap Stamina and replace Wracking Pain with Thwarted Intention – and you kill 2 rabbits with one shot. Make cooldown of Bend Metal about 15-20 seconds – another problem will be solved. And nerf Denial and Rending Vibration by 1/3. 40-60-80-100-120-140-160-180-200 for Denial (proportionaly reduce cost), and about 15-19-24-28-33-37-42 for Rending Vibration.

PS: And make delay for you lovely light sabre 1.5 seconds : )

Edited by Andrew Leslie, 31 January 2013 - 11:16 AM.


#10
h44

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Supression. As i say above – why you replace very good and useable ability? Sap Stamina was VERY good! Why you left Siphon Energy and remove Sap Stamina? Throw out Wracking Pain and set your Thwarted Intention here, and return Sap Stamina, stamina drain much more useable then gamma drain!


I have to agree with this. Sap Stamina is my favorite skill in the Suppression tree. The new ability, Thwarted Intention is useless to me because I do not pvp much. Why do I care about -% heal in pve? I've not seen any mobs that use abilities to heal themselves. Right now I use Sap Stamina quite often in pve. It is great because I barely use my gamma but eat lots of stamina. Please reconsider the removal of sap stamina and balance skills with all players in mind, not just straight pvp balance.

If this is really needed for pvp, consider forking the skill between pve and pvp versions like in guild wars and some other games.

#11
AgentNoir

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Agree with andrew on most of his stuff...especially the patho/suppression stuff. And the charge stuff. Nano aoe heal should have a lower cd. And sonic will be hilarious if groups use it lol...

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#12
Alvaro Early

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Duck and Wave its more useless than before - it removes percetage of stam every two seconds. Yay, 4 seconds for 10% dmg removal (200 instead of 220 luna) and turn yourself into snail after that.

Denial = sap stamina + siphon energy without buffing your team, imo.

Edited by Alvaro Early, 01 February 2013 - 09:15 AM.

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Oratho

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I still think it's an absolute joke that with this change Coordination is the definitive mutant stat, while Willpower is still the most useless stat in the entire game.

I don't see what any of this changes, we'll still see the same extremely narrow range of useful builds, and we'll still see the exact same type of self healing DPS tank characters.

#14
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Duck and Wave its more useless than before - it removes percetage of stam every two seconds. Yay, 4 seconds for 10% dmg removal (200 instead of 220 luna) and turn yourself into snail after that.

Denial = sap stamina + siphon energy without buffing your team, imo.

Actually unless I'm mistaken it 'reserves' x% of your stam so it doesn't take that much per hit just removes a percentage of stam from your max.

Denial = sap stam + siphone energy + denial + some...comparing the suppression on live to the suppression on pts.

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#15
Alvaro Early

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Actually unless I'm mistaken it 'reserves' x% of your stam so it doesn't take that much per hit just removes a percentage of stam from your max.

Denial = sap stam + siphone energy + denial + some...comparing the suppression on live to the suppression on pts.

Test it, all builds have some dodge. Toggle it with no enemies around just for lulz and see what happend.

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Reaps989

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Ya, currently it is bugged and draining stamina constantly and also when hit. It's quite funny.
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#17
Reaps989

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I'll rip this thread up later :D
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#18
Alvaro Early

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Patho Sapping Sickness is overkill now, definitely too strong. 65% snare up to 8 targets? And only 99 gamma? Tested this today and it seems the Suck It Up doesnt remove it.

The Denial is now on hit ability, i'd rather left that non aimed but lower the amount of stam and gamm drained up to 200-250 on highest level.

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Oratho

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One odd thing I'm noticing about Supression is that the Gamma cost does not exponentially increase, which is different from all other mutations. The exponential increase in cost also isn't consistent across all mutations.

For example:

Always Armed:

Rank 1
24 damage
7 gamma


Rank 8
60 damage
38 gamma

150% increase in effect
440% increase in cost

Benevolence:

Rank 1
48 health (x2 ally)
19 gamma

Rank 8
141 health (x2 ally)
71 gamma

190% increase in effect
270% increase in cost

Denial

Rank 1
100 stam/gamma drained
50 gamma

Rank 8
275 stam/gamma drained
137 gamma

175% increase in effect
175% increase in cost

The exponential cost increase is odd anyways, because I always felt like the cost of having a high rank should be the skill points you invested to get it, not an increase to its cost like you see in games where your abilities rank up without you having to spend anything for those ranks.

However, there seems to be a lot of numerical inconsistencies in the game right now, where the curves you see with the increase in effect and cost are entirely different for different abilities, and I can't really see a good balancing reason behind that.

FE has always been a game that fascinated me with how good it could be if it got rid of all its numerical anomalies, inconsistencies and flat out nonsense. It's also ability cost that is a huge factor in this, the reason why I compare rank 1 to rank 8 on all those abilities instead of rank 9 is because hardly anyone ever uses rank 9, since the cost of attaining a rank 9 is usually 20-40% of what it cost you to get every other rank of a mutation (depending on how much Willpower you'd need to get those last 16 points unlocked), however, rank 9 is usually not significantly better than rank 8. In fact, it often is worse, due to exponential cost increase.

Interesting side note here, Rank 9 for always armed lists a cost decrease from Rank 8 in the current numbers. Not enough to justify 55 points worth of Willpower to get it, but it is another interesting new inconsistency.

(Edit: Somehow I had a brainfart and calculated the percentages out wrong)

Edited by Oratho, 04 February 2013 - 05:36 AM.


#20
Reaps989

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Dreadnaught - Lessened speed penalty at higher ranks, which is one of the few that you may have done right.

Dirty Tricks - Sabottage, while this is fantastic and all it won't resolve GORE issues. Infact, since GORE users have tons of AP to spend over normal weapon users they will infact benefit from this more than anything else. But, at least this is more impressive than the power it used to have.

Dodge - Love it, however it's currently bugged. I still will never use the stance myself but others will.

Escape Artist - Misdirection buff? Yes plox, serious win. However you still haven't done anything about "Shake it Off" which should be the main snare removal skill. Not "Suck it Up" which it's CD is far to low and has a much lower requirement. I sugguest making SiO at 15s CD while upping it's snare removal power but SiO at 30s+.

First Aid - Save Yourself is quite interesting, but still no nerf to SiU makes me quite sad. However, you did seem to fix it removing patho's snare at least.

Melee/Charge - Finally some scaling to charge's movement speed, granted you effectively nerfed it as well with it's CD. All and all, it will be a nice boost to get in but worthless after that.

Precision - Just what we need, more % damage modifiers... comeon now.

Social/Motivational Speak - Love it and it's scaling.

Illumination - Finally a reason to take Meditation in more characters, love it. However still not addressing it's stance not reducing HP by 25% on every tier?!

Nano-Manipulation/Vital Osmosis - Now I will at least give you props for returning it to a team only heal, but seriously? Why the bloody hell is the cooldown 2 minutes? Please not the old version was 128 healing every 30 seconds at rank 7 but now is 200 at TWO MINUTES. That means it was more effective previously, not to mention it was the least used heal in the game. Let's also forget the only skill that justifies taking Nano-Manipulation is Filtration. Sorry, but this heal never needed a nerf and you gave another reason NOT to go Nano-manipulation. Reduce it's CD to 45 seconds or GTFO plox.

Patho - No downside to this tree anymore
  • Debilitating Weakness - More % cuts, while I enjoy the thought we don't need this as you're making Patho far to powerful for it's own good.
  • Sapping Sickness - Snare is unable to be removed now without heavy investment. Buff "Shake it Off" as stated above, but DO NOT ALLOW SUCK IT UP TO DISPEL THIS SNARE. Sick of FA being the best damn skill/mutation line in the entire game, Obviously make sure lower tiers are dispeled by SiU, but SiO should be much stronger of a snare dispel and the main source of breaking snares. As it currently stands, tho Patho needs a nerf either way for it's costs/snare amount and no risk.
  • Wracking Pains - The only reasonable buff to patho that was added, props.

Primal
  • Beast Might - Loving it, solid reason to take primal.
  • Primal Vigor - Nice boost to it's HP, I personally won't use it but others will love it.

Sonic
  • Catastrophic Dissonance - This one isn't so bad, I can easily see it abused but eh it needed a buff.
  • Rending Vibration - This one worries me, granted it is able to be dispeled if players are smart. So it isn't to bad.

Suppression - Obvious broken mutation line, thanks just what we needed!
  • Denial - Drain is far to strong early, the hell are you thinking? Suppression's drains were fine before, you could have easily kept the old values of both drains, lowered CD to 45 seconds, and bam solid. Even then, it's top-end drains are far to strong with current values in-game.
  • Thwarted Intention - This skill is nice, but should not scale to that extreme amount. While yes, Social has a healing increase to somewhat counter this quite well. It still isn't going to fix the fact this + GORE = hardly any damn chance to burst heal. Lower it's % or get the hell on the ball with reworking GORE. However, I am far more worried about Denial.

Telekinesis - Like the changes outside of Bend Metal being nerfed, obvious buff towards GORE users much?...
Bend Metal - I admit the cooldown was too short, it's CD should be 30 seconds tho and not 1 minute. There should be no reason that 1v1 a GORE user should be allowed to two shot, at all times, yet the normal weapons only have a chance for 10 seconds with TWO ARMOR CUTS for vastly higher AP costs.


I'm going to say it again tho - Stop the damn static scaling, stop nerfing/buffing to support Lunatic/Jackal. And don't worry, I didn't forget about the Bastards, however those are clearly stronger than any pistol. Thankfully you didn't give them that power and make them sec/ter damage types.

So I will at least say some good was attained from these changes, but none of which will cause many players to re-sub to the game. Will be depressing when this game dies due to something so stupid as not listening to your playerbase. Nobody wants GORE to be removed or nerfed to the point where it isn't useful, they want it balanced. Only way to do that is nerf it yet keep them useful by giving them sec/ter damage types to be better sustained DPS while normal weapons pull ahead with debuffs. At the same time, players will continue to stack one of the two resists and thus we create "counters" once again! Damn, such a hard concept that someone's head might explode.
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#21
AgentNoir

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Patho Sapping Sickness is overkill now, definitely too strong. 65% snare up to 8 targets? And only 99 gamma? Tested this today and it seems the Suck It Up doesnt remove it.

The Denial is now on hit ability, i'd rather left that non aimed but lower the amount of stam and gamm drained up to 200-250 on highest level.

When did they change it to onhit? as when i jumped on pts its still autotarget.


@reaps

Well tbh it was a large nerf to charge as the stam cost is stupid for what its supposed to do.

Edited by AgentNoir, 03 February 2013 - 10:47 PM.

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#22
Reaps989

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When did they change it to onhit? as when i jumped on pts its still autotarget.


@reaps

Well tbh it was a large nerf to charge as the stam cost is stupid for what its supposed to do.


I don't disagree with that, charge shouldn't cost so much stam. This is why I find it funny they claim to "Play with the best of us." everytime they do things like this. Then ask us to "Give us your opinion" yet we still look at the same problems again and again.
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#23
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Oooooone more thing....

We see all the effects that were changed, however many that were ignored.

  • Escape Artist : Shake it Off's cooldown and effectiveness vs Suck it Up's is disturbing. What the hell is the point of having this tree if somehow First Aid has better escape methods?
  • Soften 'Em Up under HW : Needs to have a longer duration or CD reduced, when the hell has anyone used it? That and it uses far to much stamina.
  • Heavy Weapons - Needs to be nerfed when in lower levels zones, add it to equalizer.
  • Power - Dent Armor could use a buff it's a terrible ability, or at least reduce it's stam cost and allow it to stack with OW/BM. Even if stam costs were reduced, it's armor cut needs to scale alot better than it currently does.
  • Illumination - Endless Reserves needs it's % HP reduction to get lower as it scales up.
  • Thermal Control - You buff Sonic yet nothing here gets touched? The hell, it's also a less resisted damage type FFS.

Edited by Reaps989, 03 February 2013 - 11:43 PM.

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#24
AgentNoir

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Oooooone more thing....

We see all the effects that were changed, however many that were ignored.

  • Escape Artist : Shake it Off's cooldown and effectiveness vs Suck it Up's is disturbing. What the hell is the point of having this tree if somehow First Aid has better escape methods?
  • Soften 'Em Up under HW : Needs to have a longer duration or CD reduced, when the hell has anyone used it? That and it uses far to much stamina.
  • Heavy Weapons - Needs to be nerfed when in lower levels zones, add it to equalizer.
  • Power - Dent Armor could use a buff it's a terrible ability, or at least reduce it's stam cost and allow it to stack with OW/BM. Even if stam costs were reduced, it's armor cut needs to scale alot better than it currently does.
  • Illumination - Endless Reserves needs it's % HP reduction to get lower as it scales up.
  • Thermal Control - You buff Sonic yet nothing here gets touched? The hell, it's also a less resisted damage type FFS.

Escape artist:

Lucky break - To be honest it's probably the worst skill in escape artist as it buffs a mechanic that is basically pointless to buff in the first place as the value in the armor window doesn't seem to accurately reflect the chance it has to block abilities...and the common consensus among pvpers(to my knowledge...i could be wrong) is that saves are broken, not worth buffing or don't do what they say. This one prob needa a buff to the amount and reduction to stam cost to make worth it.

Suck it Up - 100% agree...when we played this on pts before it was released it was 1 of my biggest gripes because it doesn't make any sense...yeah i can see FA having a snare clear but considering it was the better snare clear in a considerably better line was the confusing part. Another way to make this stronger and more worth it is to at least half the cooldown and possibly allow it to clear the damage reduction/healing debuffs...that or put a debuff clearing skill to replace lucky break.

Sapping sickness in relation to suck it up - To be honest I'd say the rank that should clear the top snare should be the 192 rank as honestly suck it up has been a terrible skill for a while(preservation outclassed it in every way...only possible exception is group fights where gamma actually means more if you are crosshealing) and 192 takes quite a bit of investment to hit...nevermind it also forces you to invest in a dead stat(mainly due to ea being a meh line).

illumination toggle - Put scaling on it per rank and possibly add an alternative version that reduces damage rather than health. As the mechanic to reduce damage exists now(they said they couldn't do it before), this seems like a good alternative that would allow support toons to make use of this line and buff without hurting something that's usually already very low on them(survivability).

Primal Vigor - Add a scaling to its max gamma reduction, so it goes lower per rank. Also possibly make it so it has an alternative version that reduces gamma regen per rank by a % rather than max gamma.

Thermal - Prob should have the movement penalty on it's skills taken off period especially as sonic is considerably stronger...aoe, tertiary and doesn't hit team mates.


Snares in general - To be honest aoe snares should be easier to remove than single target purely because they are aoe and both aoe snares atm are auto target not aimed unlike the single target snares.

Suppression - This line...didn't need to be changed period it was still very strong defensively, support, utility and offensively. It's 1 of the few lines that's good for everyone, with the exception of dicerolling burst builds.


Reaps curious what's opinion on andrews suggestion for patho/suppression?

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Nysak


#25
Reaps989

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Escape artist:

Lucky break - To be honest it's probably the worst skill in escape artist as it buffs a mechanic that is basically pointless to buff in the first place as the value in the armor window doesn't seem to accurately reflect the chance it has to block abilities...and the common consensus among pvpers(to my knowledge...i could be wrong) is that saves are broken, not worth buffing or don't do what they say. This one prob needa a buff to the amount and reduction to stam cost to make worth it.

Sapping sickness in relation to suck it up - To be honest I'd say the rank that should clear the top snare should be the 192 rank as honestly suck it up has been a terrible skill for a while(preservation outclassed it in every way...only possible exception is group fights where gamma actually means more if you are crosshealing) and 192 takes quite a bit of investment to hit...nevermind it also forces you to invest in a dead stat(mainly due to ea being a meh line).

illumination toggle - Put scaling on it per rank and possibly add an alternative version that reduces damage rather than health. As the mechanic to reduce damage exists now(they said they couldn't do it before), this seems like a good alternative that would allow support toons to make use of this line and buff without hurting something that's usually already very low on them(survivability).

Primal Vigor - Add a scaling to its max gamma reduction, so it goes lower per rank. Also possibly make it so it has an alternative version that reduces gamma regen per rank by a % rather than max gamma.

Thermal - Prob should have the movement penalty on it's skills taken off period especially as sonic is considerably stronger...aoe, tertiary and doesn't hit team mates.


Snares in general - To be honest aoe snares should be easier to remove than single target purely because they are aoe and both aoe snares atm are auto target not aimed unlike the single target snares.

Suppression - This line...didn't need to be changed period it was still very strong defensively, support, utility and offensively. It's 1 of the few lines that's good for everyone, with the exception of dicerolling burst builds.


Reaps curious what's opinion on andrews suggestion for patho/suppression?


Agreed on almost all of the above, except for Sapping Sickness vs Suck it Up. Only because most players already have a 162-186 investment into FA. If you're already at 186 FA you can easily bump up another 192. If "Suck it Up" had a longer cooldown but required more of an AP investment compared to "Shake it off" I would say it's fine.

I also agree AoE snares should be easier to remove, no doubt.

I will read Andrew's post right fast as well. Anything I didn't quote tho I also agree on xD
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#26
Reaps989

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Patho. Imho, 65% for 15 seconds is overkill. Reduce all effects for -10% will be good. And what strenght of this debuff? What level Suck it Up we need to remove? About Wracking Pain – don't see reason in this ability. Why your new ability Thwarted Intention replace awesome Sap Stamina? Replace this Wracking Pain with it!

Supression. As i say above – why you replace very good and useable ability? Sap Stamina was VERY good! Why you left Siphon Energy and remove Sap Stamina? Throw out Wracking Pain and set your Thwarted Intention here, and return Sap Stamina, stamina drain much more useable then gamma drain!
About Denial – ability really op. -300 stamina/gamma make target dead more guaranteed then -300 HP per minute. -200 must be _maximum_. And how you picture -100 stamina to 15-20 level character? Now you need only 48 in skill to remove 1/2-2/3 stamina from this low level toons. What makes it uber ability to kill any shotgun users.

Summary. Most changes looks good, but Telekinesis, Supression, Sonic and Patho need strong revision. Leave alone Sap Stamina and replace Wracking Pain with Thwarted Intention – and you kill 2 rabbits with one shot. Make cooldown of Bend Metal about 15-20 seconds – another problem will be solved. And nerf Denial and Rending Vibration by 1/3. 40-60-80-100-120-140-160-180-200 for Denial (proportionaly reduce cost), and about 15-19-24-28-33-37-42 for Rending Vibration.

PS: And make delay for you lovely light sabre 1.5 seconds : )



Agreed on Patho, however I would say they just need to make sure they buff "Shake it Off" from EA to remove it at lower ranks while SiU can remove it at top ranks. As long as "Shake it Off" has a lower CD/Stam cost than "Suck it Up" that is. Mostly since people use FA already at ranks of 186, there is no reason for anything lower than 192 to dispel Patho's snare. However, other snares (Such as Dirty Tricks) should not beable to be removed by Suck it Up. Shake it Off should be the best snarebreak, always.

I can agree, Patho "should" be the debuffing tree so the healing resist buff could replace the regen debuff. Then Suppression can go back to how it was, and maybe with minor buffs.

Denial does need an extreme nerf, no doubt. And I also support your numbers provided. However, I'd prefer if they left Soinc alone and just buffed Thermal so we could have "mage" characters in FE finally.
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#27
Alvaro Early

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One word on Perfect Timing. It's stackable with other dmg buffers - yesterday I managed to land 640 crit with lunatic with precise hit when perfect timing was on. Even it was on Keep's door, shows how Luna is OP and no effect combat will change it.

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#28
AgentNoir

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One word on Perfect Timing. It's stackable with other dmg buffers - yesterday I managed to land 640 crit with lunatic with precise hit when perfect timing was on. Even it was on Keep's door, shows how Luna is OP and no effect combat will change it.

And yeah denial is onhit now...and it seems it got reduced by 100 stam/gamma.

Why is stuff ninjanerfed?

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#29
Reaps989

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I will also throw this out their for Vital Osmosis

1.) Change it to a team heal, not cone AoE.
2.) Reduce heal slightly below previous values. However, this does mean reduce gamma cost.
3.) Add "dispel" equal to filtration's dispel.
4.) Cooldown should be 30s, no more nor less.

Current Scaling on live, seems to scale by 16/17 previously

Rank 1 : 35
Rank 2 : 46 (11 increase)
Rank 3 : 62 (16 increase)
Rank 4 : 79 (17 increase)
Rank 5 : 95 ( 16 increase)
Rank 6 : 111 (16 increase)
Rank 7 : 128 (17 increase)
Rank 8 : 144 (16 increase)
Rank 9 : 160 (16 increase)

Suggested Scaling

Rank 1 : 35
Rank 2 : 45
Rank 3 : 57
Rank 4 : 69
Rank 5 : 81
Rank 6 : 93
Rank 7 : 105
Rank 8 : 117
Rank 9 : 129

While yes, the healing goes down but this directly provides a dispel for the entire group for DoT's.

If not, we could keep the current values on PTS, reduce CD to 45 seconds, and maybe still add the dispel tag. But honestly just reducing the cooldown to 45 seconds would be best. Or even 40 seconds, but sure as hell isn't a good mutation with a 2 minute cooldown.


Old Rank 7 V.O. in 1m 30s : 384
New Rank 7 V.O in 1m 30s : 400 (With 45s CD)
PTS Rank 7 V.O in 2 minutes : 200
Old Rank 7 V.O in 2 minutes : 512

Even with those changes, I'd still support dispel to remove group DoT's on a 45s CD. Then it truely would be the "group" support mutation.

Edit : Also make it's radius 20m to 30m from the point of the caster as a pbAoE.

Edited by Reaps989, 04 February 2013 - 03:13 AM.

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#30
Reaps989

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And yeah denial is onhit now...and it seems it got reduced by 100 stam/gamma.

Why is stuff ninjanerfed?


Because they don't like to keep us informed to provide proper feedback, then act like we "gave" them feedback. Same reason why GORE is still OP :D
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#31
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Also a possible suggestion...why not change the save buff in enhancement to a tert/secondary armor buff?


Also please make the descriptions of the stage 3 armor accurate. How much % chance to use the passive? How much does it heal/buff etc? No reason to be vague with your playerbase...all you will do at the end of the day is hurt the new people and casuals.


@reaps

Why not a 10m aoe like catastrophic dissonance? Would work better imo especially as the radius and what not of the cone is totally unknown.

Edited by AgentNoir, 04 February 2013 - 01:35 AM.

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#32
Reaps989

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Also a possible suggestion...why not change the save buff in enhancement to a tert/secondary armor buff?


Would be nice, saves hardly do much tbh.

Also going to throw this out there...

Sonic's "Catastrophic Dissonance"

At 168 Sonic you can deal a 115 sonic damage aoe, let's go over the fun of this right fast...

1 caster : 115
2 casters : 230
3 casters : 345
4 casters : 460
5 casters : 575
6 casters : 690
7 casters : 805
8 casters : 920
9 casters : 1035
10 casters : 1150

I have 38% reduction on Nysek, probly the highest outside of someone using Soak Elements.

5 casters : 356
10 casters : 713

So... it needs a nerf. Not to mention we could do this in lower level zones. The DoT also will need a nerf by at least 50%. Infact I'd say nerf both by 50% damage.

Edited by Reaps989, 04 February 2013 - 02:00 AM.

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#33
Alvaro Early

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It would be nice to have some visual cone visible only to the caster so it will be better to see what range is better....

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#34
AgentNoir

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Would be nice, saves hardly do much tbh.

Also going to throw this out there...

Sonic's "Catastrophic Dissonance"

At 168 Sonic you can deal a 115 sonic damage aoe, let's go over the fun of this right fast...

1 caster : 115
2 casters : 230
3 casters : 345
4 casters : 460
5 casters : 575
6 casters : 690
7 casters : 805
8 casters : 920
9 casters : 1035
10 casters : 1150

I have 38% reduction on Nysek, probly the highest outside of someone using Soak Elements.

5 casters : 356
10 casters : 713

So... it needs a nerf. Not to mention we could do this in lower level zones. The DoT also will need a nerf by at least 50%. Infact I'd say nerf both by 50% damage.

Hey if they dont...i know what my troll build will be...ohh dat aoe...

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#35
Reaps989

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Update on Shake it Off (SiO) vs Suck it Up (SiU)


Patho Snare
SiO 6 - Dispels Patho Snare Rank 7
SiU 7 - Cannot dispel Patho Rank 7, can dispel 6.
Lower tiers of Patho can be dispeled by higher tiers of SiU. (AKA 6 can dispel 5 but not 6)

Kneecap 6
SiO 6 - Can dispel
SiU 7 - Can dispel

Caltrops
SiO 6 - Cannot dispel
SiU 7- Cannot Dispel

When removing snares
SiU - Doesn't grant CC immunity
SiO - Grants CC immunity

Fix plox so we can change cooldown timers FFS and make SiO the best snarebreak while SiU can dispel patho. Same with Caltrops.

Patho should not be the "best" snare while being AoE.

Edited by Reaps989, 04 February 2013 - 03:38 AM.

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#36
AgentNoir

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Caltrops/Patho snare and all nade snares should be reduced to half the effect level or 3/4s of single target equivalents. Purely because it's aoe so it shouldn't hit as hard or be as strong as single target, as aoe as the benefit of increasingly better efficiency based on how many it hits.

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#37
Reaps989

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Caltrops/Patho snare and all nade snares should be reduced to half the effect level or 3/4s of single target equivalents. Purely because it's aoe so it shouldn't hit as hard or be as strong as single target, as aoe as the benefit of increasingly better efficiency based on how many it hits.


Agreed
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#38
AgentNoir

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Also another idea for diplomatic immunity. Either make it so you can't you use any offensive skills(weapon attacks, debuffs, dmging skills, cc etc) or it reduces dmg by 75%. It also still increases your armor/dodge, but to make it unique in its own way it then provides a scaling heal increase to your team. The heal increase would work like an aura in that once you died it disappeared. Also it would be good to make it so that there is a visible animation so that people can decide if they want to focus you. A duration increase to about 20/30 seconds would also help the skill.

This would make it so unlike the current diplomatic immunity there is a legitimate use for diplomatic immunity besides turning you into a tanky version of a bump on a log(aka uselss, cept for taking bullets...literally). It would make it so it synergizes with the aura and at the same time makes it so you are making a sacrifice to help your team and to be able to take more(you are offensively impotent making it strong in groups and weak in 1v1s)...so you would effectively have a good support buff.

There should also be a visible animation for the 3 stage 3 suits that are different from currently used animations, so people can know whats happening.

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#39
Reaps989

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Also another idea for diplomatic immunity. Either make it so you can't you use any offensive skills(weapon attacks, debuffs, dmging skills, cc etc) or it reduces dmg by 75%. It also still increases your armor/dodge, but to make it unique in its own way it then provides a scaling heal increase to your team. The heal increase would work like an aura in that once you died it disappeared. Also it would be good to make it so that there is a visible animation so that people can decide if they want to focus you. A duration increase to about 20/30 seconds would also help the skill.

This would make it so unlike the current diplomatic immunity there is a legitimate use for diplomatic immunity besides turning you into a tanky version of a bump on a log(aka uselss, cept for taking bullets...literally). It would make it so it synergizes with the aura and at the same time makes it so you are making a sacrifice to help your team and to be able to take more(you are offensively impotent making it strong in groups and weak in 1v1s)...so you would effectively have a good support buff.

There should also be a visible animation for the 3 stage 3 suits that are different from currently used animations, so people can know whats happening.



Would be nice, also help counter suppression's new debuff. Probly say a 25% healing increase for top tier? idk

Also animations to their passives would be nice.

Edited by Reaps989, 04 February 2013 - 04:21 AM.

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#40
Reaps989

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Going to point out "Misdirection" is not the scale skill scaling for Escape Artist, but honestly it should stay the same as the scaling currently in-game.

81 - Rank 1
111 - Rank 2
141 - Rank 3
171 - Rank 4

Either that or you need to buff Lucky Break not to suck, same with reducing Shake it Off's cooldown.

Or make Dash 3 and make it the 195 skill, then make Dash's cooldown be reduced with higher tiers :P

Edited by Reaps989, 04 February 2013 - 05:19 AM.

Nysek - Mednaught : The only character in FE made of Gammina™

Walls are for horses, I build gosh darning castles of logic to protect us from your constant rain of derp.

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